jfktowerfan
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Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:46 am

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,241039,00.html
For those of you who don't like fox:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/01/03/school.shooting.ap/index.html
When is this stuff going to stop.

Corey

[Edited 2007-01-03 17:47:16]
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skidmarks
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting JFKTOWERFAN (Thread starter):
When is this stuff going to stop.

Maybe when the US improves it's gun legislation?  duck   stirthepot 

(Runs and hides from the NRA)

Andy  old 
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Queso
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting JFKTOWERFAN (Thread starter):
When is this stuff going to stop.

At the same time all other CRIMES stop. Murder, rape, robery, burglary, drunk driving, embezzlement.......when will any of it stop?
 
jfktowerfan
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 2):
At the same time all other CRIMES stop. Murder, rape, robery, burglary, drunk driving, embezzlement.......when will any of it stop?

Thats a huge statement, just seems to me that a School is a much more controlled environment. I would think it would be fairly easy to make sure guns don't walk through the front door of a school. But I guess that would cost money and money is obviously more important than people.

Corey
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Queso
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting JFKTOWERFAN (Reply 3):
I would think it would be fairly easy to make sure guns don't walk through the front door of a school. But I guess that would cost money and money is obviously more important than people.

That's a good point and something we can agree on. I don't think it would be a bad idea to have metal detectors at entrances of schools. It would help to screen out other items we wouldn't want in schools too. I'm not sure how practical that idea is, but I think some schools are doing it now.

We really need to get a little more info on exactly what happened though before we start analyzing this particular incident.
 
Queso
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:13 am

From the Fox link in the thread starter.....

"Some students interviewed by a local news station said they didn't know who the shooter was, but one female described the alleged gunman as "some white guy.""

Well, THAT narrows it down.  sarcastic 
 
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 1):
Maybe when the US improves it's gun legislation?

Most gun crimes are committed by people who are illegally possessing firearms to begin with. All the laws in the world don't stop people who don't obey the law anyway. Much like drunk driving laws. It is illegal to drink and drive, but people do it all the time. Just because there are laws people can choose to ignore them. We take weapons, or all kinds, off of students all the time where I work. All of which are illegal in a school or for a person under 21. The law does not stop people who don't care about the law to begin with.

This isn't new. The worst school mass murder in US history was on 5-18-1927, in Bath, Michigan. A disgruntled school board member blew up the school killing 45 people and injuring 58. He was upset because his farm had been foreclosed on, partially due to tax issues. The school construction was paid for through increased property taxes.

Everyone thinks that mass killing in a school is new, but things have happened in the past. It is not just a problem in the US either.

If there ever is a shooting in the school I work in it will be over drugs. Business is business to some people. If it isn't a gun, it would be a beating or a stabbing.
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halls120
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 6):
Most gun crimes are committed by people who are illegally possessing firearms to begin with. All the laws in the world don't stop people who don't obey the law anyway.

I've always marveled at the "let's pass a more stringent law" zealots who jump out every time a tragedy happens.

As you have correctly pointed out, it is the person holding the gun that ignores the law.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting JFKTOWERFAN (Reply 3):
Thats a huge statement, just seems to me that a School is a much more controlled environment. I would think it would be fairly easy to make sure guns don't walk through the front door of a school. But I guess that would cost money and money is obviously more important than people.

School is a controlled environment, but if it gets out of hand it can go very fast. One teacher in a classroom and 25 kids. Things go go the other way very fast, especially in a high school. A couple of weeks ago a fight in our lunch room caused about 100 kids to run into the area. The 5 employees were mobbed and the fight continued until it was over.

Easier said then done about weapons in school. Kids will not have them on them when they enter, but people will pass them in through windows, fire doors, etc. Everytime you figure a way to keep something out they people hell bent of doing something bad will figure out how to beat it. If only those kids put that much effort into their education.
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 1):
(Runs and hides from the NRA)

The NRA is mostly funded by people like me who pay their $35 per year or $750 for life. It is not just some big ogre organization without a face. People like me pay them to represent us and our views. The NRA has millions of members and some of them are not even from the USA.

I also belong to the Boat Owners Association of the United States, which is also a lobbyist group. Boating my be far less objectionable to some people, but the principle is the same.
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jfktowerfan
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 8):
Easier said then done about weapons in school.

Obviously this is something that will happen again and again. My first statement was not meant to be taken literally. Typed words in a forum never get the point across.

Corey
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falstaff
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting JFKTOWERFAN (Reply 10):
Typed words in a forum never get the point across

I know what you mean.
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deltagator
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 5):
but one female described the alleged gunman as "some white guy.""

Well, THAT narrows it down.

We all look alike or didn't you get that memo.  Wink
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
Queso
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 12):
We all look alike or didn't you get that memo.

Especially when we have a gun!  Wink
 
bushpilot
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:27 am

Certainly a tragic situation. But one that I think is generally unavoidable. Guns are a part of our country. Introducing legislation that is reactionary in nature to events such as this shameful, much less having that legislation passed. My thoughts go with the victim and thier family and friends. May the perp spend a long time in prison.
 
N174UA
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:37 am

Let me guess...a loner kid is bullied constantly, can't take it anymore, plays too many violent video games, steals a gun from his parents or friend who didn't responsibly secure it at their home, and went crazy.

When will the bullying problem in schools (everywhere, not just the US) be solved? When will school stop being a fashion show where survival of the fittest is the mentality?

With rights comes responsibility. If you own a gun, you're responsible for it all times. If you're not around, then it needs to be locked up, plain and simple. If it turns out in this case that the parents didn't responsibly secure this weapon, then THEY need to be severely punished as well.

You know...there were always guns in my parents home when I was growing up. But I was taught how to respect a weapon and how to handle one if I found one laying around someplace. I don't care if you like guns or not...or if you want to own one or not...that's the choice of the individual. What I DO care about is people, at a very young age, need to be taught basic gun safety principles.

I support the NRA and the 2nd amendment, but I personally don't have any guns in my home. I don't support meaningless "feel good" legislation that ultimately accomplishes nothing. CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY LAWS!!!!!
 
AirCop
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:50 am

You make three very good points N174UA.
When I went to school, teachers were still respected in the community and they dressed professionally. Now it seems teachers have become the poster child for everything wrong in the USA, by certain political groups. I suppose one could see a relate a decline in discipline to the way society treats teachers, and the downgrading of the way teachers dress for work. How can someone be taken seriously as a professional if you're teaching students wearing a t-shirt and dirty blue jeans?
 
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 5):
From the Fox link in the thread starter.....

"Some students interviewed by a local news station said they didn't know who the shooter was, but one female described the alleged gunman as "some white guy.""

Well, THAT narrows it down.

Actually, it can narrow it down. I know of one school here in Richmond which is pretty much all black. I am sure there are neighborhoods like that near Seattle. A white person would certainly stick out in a "ghetto" neighborhood.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
bushpilot
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:29 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 16):
When I went to school, teachers were still respected in the community

I think they generally are.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 16):
Now it seems teachers have become the poster child for everything wrong in the USA

Funny, but Ill play. Teachers make up probably the best cross reference of background of many occupations in this country. I wonder what that says about the entire country.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 16):
I suppose one could see a relate a decline in discipline to the way society treats teachers

You know, I work with youth, not as a teacher but through a non-profit, and am good friends with many teachers. They can try to instill discipline until they are blue in the face and truely distract from the educational process in attempting to do so, but when thier hands are cuffed from the administration of thier classroom, and with no help from PARENTS what is one to do.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 16):
the downgrading of the way teachers dress for work. How can someone be taken seriously as a professional if you're teaching students wearing a t-shirt and dirty blue jeans?

Well if teachers were paid what they were worth, and could afford better clothes on top of having to pay for retirement, student loans, ongoing education, on top of thier normal wages is not as easy as one would think.
 
searpqx
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 17):
I know of one school here in Richmond which is pretty much all black. I am sure there are neighborhoods like that near Seattle.

There are, but this isn't one of them. This particular school sits at the edge of North Tacoma, a generally generally mixed, somewhat gentrified section of the city. The overall profile of the school is very mixed, 42% White, 28% Black, 20% Asian, 8% Hispanic, 1% American Native. In other words, a pretty typical urban school.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
They can try to instill discipline until they are blue in the face and truely distract from the educational process in attempting to do so, but when thier hands are cuffed from the administration of thier classroom, and with no help from PARENTS what is one to do.

Having worked in a local district (that shares borders with the district this school was in) I can't agree more with this statement. I reported to the Asst. Superintendent responsible for 1/2 the schools in the district, and my desk was the ultimate destination for issues that couldn't be resolved at the school level. While there were certainly cases where the teachers were out of line, the vast majority of the complaints I dealt with were from parents who were challenging a teachers authority to take disciplinary action against their son. In over 90% of the cases, it was a matter of the parent refusing to accept that their child could do ANY wrong, let alone what the teacher had disciplined them for. Even in cases where we backed the teacher/administration 100%, it was not uncommon for the Superintendent and/or School Board to overturn the decision. Many parents have abdicated their responsibility for their kids, instead placing it on the school. But while they hold the schools accountable, they refuse to grant them the authority. Schools are under tremendous pressure to treat everyone 'equally', and in their effort to accomplish this, the goal becomes to not offend anyone, at all. This ultimately flows down to the classroom and directly impacts the teachers ability to maintain order and conduct an effective class.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 6):
Most gun crimes are committed by people who are illegally possessing firearms to begin with. All the laws in the world don't stop people who don't obey the law anyway. Much like drunk driving laws. It is illegal to drink and drive, but people do it all the time. Just because there are laws people can choose to ignore them. We take weapons, or all kinds, off of students all the time where I work. All of which are illegal in a school or for a person under 21. The law does not stop people who don't care about the law to begin with.

I know this becomes an argument that goes around in circles, but the reality is, if the gun laws were more restricted, then there would be much fewer available guns for the law breakers to get a hold of. If there were one tenth the legally owned guns in the community in America, it would have a big effect on illegal shootings.

True, it may mean that those who want to commit violent crimes resort to knives/baseball bats etc when they can't get hold of a gun, but an offender brandishing such a weapon is easier to control, and less effective.
 
bushpilot
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 19):
In over 90% of the cases, it was a matter of the parent refusing to accept that their child could do ANY wrong

That is a main problem. I have been working with community youth here for the last 7 years, and time and time again, I have tried to deal with kids where thier parents blame everyone but thier own kid for thier poor behavior. it is the school's fault, the team coach, the police. Everyone else in the world is wrong about my kid!

Another thing I will point out, that professionals that work with youth, have to toe such a fine line on what can and cannot go on. One can get fired for raising thier voices even. While I agree that some behavior on behalf of a teacher etc should be watched closely. The parents have much more influence in the lives of thier children, but little reprocussion if they dont exert that properly.
 
PLANAR
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:05 am

I remember back in India, when I was in my 9th grade (1997 was the year) - a student brought a spent bullet shell and it set off such a flurry among the staff, that the shell was confiscated and parents were called in and given a stern lecture by the school.

India has strict arms laws and although indeed I concur that criminals really don't follow laws, theres still something to be said about having stricter arms control.

For example - that was the first time I ever saw a bullet shell. Most common people in India don't bear fire-arms, which usually is the sole prerogative of police personnels.

IMHO, It just makes sense to restrict devices which are primarily meant to harm, never mind how noble the intentions of NRA.

Not just a knee-jerk reaction to yet another shooting incident, but I do think that guns should be made more harder to obtain.

On a lighter note - this reminds me of that Family Guy episode ( Its 5th season episode 11)-
"You think the language in Second Amendment is clear enough - you know the right to bear arms?"
"Ofcourse its clear - Every American has the right to hang a pair of Bear Arms on their wall, how could that possibly be misconstrued?"
"Alright, fantastic then, you know what, before we send this to the printer, lets take that abortion thing out!"

Rgrds
PLA  duck 
Flim-Flam Balderdash...
 
itsjustme
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:07 am

Hopefully this won't turn into another gun control debate. We need to tighten the security of our schools, period. Metal detectors and random property searches are a must. Schools should be a haven for our kids and teachers and we should take whatever steps necessary to achieve that goal.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 16):
I suppose one could see a relate a decline in discipline to the way society treats teachers, and the downgrading of the way teachers dress for work. How can someone be taken seriously as a professional if you're teaching students wearing a t-shirt and dirty blue jeans?

Agreed, just as the dress code for the students has changed drastically. I'm not in favor of school uniforms, but we need to get back to some type of dress code for students and teachers.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 23):
Hopefully this won't turn into another gun control debate.

It will . . . . this is A-Net remember. All of us responsible gun owners - cops included - will all get told what lousy human beings we are before the night passes.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 23):
Schools should be a haven for our kids and teachers and we should take whatever steps necessary to achieve that goal.

Exactly why I'm glad my daughter is now going to school in rural Iowa rather than the Anchorage schools. Naturally I'm not so naive as to assume nothing untoward could occur at her school, I'm just smart enough to know the odds have been knocked way down . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
bushpilot
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:25 am

PLANAR, Thanks for your reply, I thought it to be of high quality. I will respond with a few comments of my own.

Quoting PLANAR (Reply 22):
I remember back in India, when I was in my 9th grade (1997 was the year) - a student brought a spent bullet shell and it set off such a flurry among the staff, that the shell was confiscated and parents were called in and given a stern lecture by the school.

Interesting story, I am one who thinks guns are something to be respected, and learned about, and hopefully not feared. The only potential harm a spent casing has on someone is how fast someone can throw it at them.

Quoting PLANAR (Reply 22):
For example - that was the first time I ever saw a bullet shell. Most common people in India don't bear fire-arms, which usually is the sole prerogative of police personnels.

Fair enough, and I am not against that. But where I live the use of firearms is critical. We need to hunt for our food.

Quoting PLANAR (Reply 22):
Not just a knee-jerk reaction to yet another shooting incident, but I do think that guns should be made more harder to obtain.

This is a novel idea and one that I am not against. But the logistics of eliminating guns already in private possession would be ridiculous. Hell I have 14 myself, but doing something about being able to walk into WalMart empty handed and walking out with a pistol and as much ammo as you can carry in less than 30minutes is a bit short sighted on the part of the NRA.
 
PLANAR
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 25):
Interesting story, I am one who thinks guns are something to be respected, and learned about, and hopefully not feared. The only potential harm a spent casing has on someone is how fast someone can throw it at them.

 checkmark  I wholly agree. But I guess a little mixture of healthy respect and fear will do a lot good in this regard.

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 25):
Fair enough, and I am not against that. But where I live the use of firearms is critical. We need to hunt for our food.

That is true. Situation in America dictates posession of fire-arms.

No matter how much do we blame parents on allowing easy access to firearms to their children. The fact of the matter is that sometimes it just happens.

You may be the most careful parent and would have taught your kids all about firearms, but after all we are all humans and in the tempests of life, sometimes we do make mistakes. And sometimes situations can just rightly compound enough to bring about misery.

If I compare analogically - Its just like an aircraft. There may be one in a zillion chance of multiple failures, yet sometimes crashes do happen!

Hence, in my view, laws should be aimed at reducing this accessibility to the children.

Maybe manufacturers of fire-arms can be pressed to design their guns in such a way that a child/teen cannot fire it without additional help.

How it should be designed is something that should be brain-stormed upon, but well it can be a start.

I guess, just like in an aircraft - redundant layers of security is the key.

Regards
PLA
Flim-Flam Balderdash...
 
bushpilot
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 24):
Exactly why I'm glad my daughter is now going to school in rural Iowa rather than the Anchorage schools. Naturally I'm not so naive as to assume nothing untoward could occur at her school, I'm just smart enough to know the odds have been knocked way down .

Pep, there has yet to be a school shooting during school hours in ANC. Granted there were 3 murders off school grounds in less than 6 hours on New Years, but who is counting. School shootings are generally random acts by disgruntled students with a few exceptions.

Quoting PLANAR (Reply 26):
Maybe manufacturers of fire-arms can be pressed to design their guns in such a way that a child/teen cannot fire it without additional help.

There is technology along the lines you are thinking where the owner has a ring, and the gun can only be fired in the close proximity of that certain ring. But the technology is expensive and not really available on the market today. Most places that sell guns give away a free trigger lock with purchase. But one has to actually use the lock for it to be effective. Same with having a gun safe.

Quoting PLANAR (Reply 26):
I guess, just like in an aircraft - redundant layers of security is the key.

True, which is why if you have a child living with you and there are firearms in the house, assuming you dont want them to have access to them...you put them in a locked room, then in a locked safe or closet, with a trigger lock, and then ammo put in another location locked. This works great in an urban setting, or even a rural one where a young kid may not need to grab the shotgun to shoot a bear attacking the dog or something else. Where I live this sort of thing happens regularly.
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:56 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 24):
It will . . . . this is A-Net remember. All of us responsible gun owners - cops included - will all get told what lousy human beings we are before the night passes.

I don't agree with you gun laws but I do believe that most American gun owners are responsible with the privelege of owning a firearm. However, beyong this majority, there are two other problem groups:

1: The criminally minded who manages to get a gun license and legally own a firearm

2: The apathetic but law-abiding person who does not respect the responsibility of owning a firearm.

I think the presence of these two groups vastly increases the chances of guns getting into the hands of people likely to do harm.

It's a numbers game....I'm sure that most guns used illegally were legally owned at some time in their life....
 
aloges
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:58 am

Quoting N174UA (Reply 15):
When will the bullying problem in schools (everywhere, not just the US) be solved?

I'd like to hear opinions on one idea of mine: children are too often thought to be undersized adults. People expect them to "function", which is to deal with all things life and their peers handle them with little help. In other words, some parents need to learn that giving your child food and a place to eat it (and sleep) doesn't solve all problems.

On the other hand, I always remember that story from "Bowling for Columbine" where a child grabbed a gun while the mother was far away working in some lowest-wage scam set up by authorities that didn't care one bit about the time she would have needed for her child.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 15):
When will school stop being a fashion show where survival of the fittest is the mentality?

As soon as expensive status symbols are banned. Of course, children will always find a way of telling how much money someone else can spend, but if they're required to dress neutrally and to hand in their jewellery and their €300 phones before school, they will learn that those don't make them special.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
PLANAR
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 29):
As soon as expensive status symbols are banned. Of course, children will always find a way of telling how much money someone else can spend, but if they're required to dress neutrally and to hand in their jewellery and their €300 phones before school, they will learn that those don't make them special.

 checkmark 
Thats why many schools in India strictly enforce - No mobiles/cell-phones, no Ipods nor video-games, strict uniform code.

Sometimes they even go over-board with it - No fancy back-packs, no funky hair-dos, no fancy wrist-watches or jewellery. Sometimes they even provide the textbooks and notebooks from the school!

Although, I personally think that banning is never the solution to anything. This is one rare occasion where the logic behind makes sense - that is until kids learn to objectively think, there should be no cultivation of any false vanity.

Rgrds
PLA
Flim-Flam Balderdash...
 
deltagator
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 29):
I'd like to hear opinions on one idea of mine: children are too often thought to be undersized adults. People expect them to "function", which is to deal with all things life and their peers handle them with little help. In other words, some parents need to learn that giving your child food and a place to eat it (and sleep) doesn't solve all problems.

You mean like actually take an interest in their kid's lives and pay attention to them instead of dropping them in front of the idiot box? What a wonderfully novel idea that will never work.

Too many people in America have kids when they shouldn't and then blame everyone else when their kid goes on a rampage, makes bad grades, or turns out stupid when they are illiterate at 18 and can't even pass the high school graduation exams which anyone with a pulse should be able to pass.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 29):
I always remember that story from "Bowling for Columbine" where a child grabbed a gun while the mother was far away working in some lowest-wage scam set up by authorities that didn't care one bit about the time she would have needed for her child.

Ah yes, blame the authorities for the mom working long hours. Perhaps it is a cycle of stupidity handed down by her and her ancestors. Should she have some high paying, low hours job just so she can spend some time with her kid? Perhaps...if she has the skill set to do that job but something tells me she's not the brightest bulb in the lamp.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 27):
Pep, there has yet to be a school shooting during school hours in ANC. Granted there were 3 murders off school grounds in less than 6 hours on New Years, but who is counting. School shootings are generally random acts by disgruntled students with a few exceptions.

NO, you're exactly right. Just a matter of time IMO.

There are other mitigations here as well. I spent some time in my daughters classrooms in her new Iowa school over the last two years . . . exceptional is the only word for it. The entire learning environment puts Anchorage schools to shame.

Unfortunate. . .

We need to pay our teachers what they are worth and hire more of them. That's a step in the right direction in the Anchorage schools.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
N174UA
Posts: 860
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 29):
children are too often thought to be undersized adults. People expect them to "function", which is to deal with all things life and their peers handle them with little help. In other words, some parents need to learn that giving your child food and a place to eat it (and sleep) doesn't solve all problems.

I'll agree with you on that point. "Latch-key kids", or kids who come home after school when both parents are still at work, have free reign of the place and Mom and Dad have little, if any, clue of what they do during this time. Reminds me of how the parents of the Columbine killers had no idea their kids had propane tanks that were set up to be used as bombs (maybe we should close the propane tank loophole....) in their garage. Were they that oblivious when they drove their Audi or SUV into their own garage to not notice?

People these days aren't responsible for their actions. They'd rather blame someone else than face the fact they screwed up. They'd rather sue someone else or target the NRA or whoever, rather than accept the fact they should have enrolled their kids in gun safety classes. Hell, I learned how to handle guns in the Boy Scouts. Gun ownership in my home was never, repeat, NEVER a problem for my family. But then we're responsible, where most others are ignorant and don't care.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 29):
"Bowling for Columbine" where a child grabbed a gun while the mother was far away working in some lowest-wage scam set up by authorities that didn't care one bit about the time she would have needed for her child.

I'll bet Michael Moore conveniently forgot to mention how parents are responsible for the guns they own. Instead, I'll bet he blamed the NRA for it.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 29):
As soon as expensive status symbols are banned. Of course, children will always find a way of telling how much money someone else can spend, but if they're required to dress neutrally and to hand in their jewellery and their €300 phones before school, they will learn that those don't make them special.

 checkmark  That's what creates the atmosphere that helps to breed bullying...the class warfare issues where some kids have designer clothes and others don't. Or some kids arrive in the newest SUV, where others arrive in a '75 Ford Pinto. I can't speak for German schools, but my experience in high school (1987-91) was one where athletics ruled, and those who were cool were the ones who picked up their wardrobe at Nordstrom's or Macy's, etc.
 
aloges
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 31):
What a wonderfully novel idea that will never work.

I like the sarcasm! Big grin

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 31):
Ah yes, blame the authorities for the mom working long hours.

Do you remember the scenes? IIRC, it wasn't about the mother working long hours because she found that job, but because she was put in a programme that supposedly gave unemployed poor people chances. The thing is, she would have had her public financial aid cut if she hadn't "agreed" to join the scheme.

I'd have no problem with that happening to myself for some time - but I'd seek a way to get the hell out of it, and fast. But when a single mother is basically forced to leave her child alone for a job that pays so little she'll still be poor, I do have a problem with people jumping on her. No one can be blamed for the life (s)he's born into, and if the child is there and the father is gone, the government is not to cause more problems!

In other words, the last thing a government should do is throw stones at someone caught between a rock and a hard place.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 18):
Quoting AirCop (Reply 16):When I went to school, teachers were still respected in the community
I think they generally are.

Not like they used to be.

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 20):
I know this becomes an argument that goes around in circles, but the reality is, if the gun laws were more restricted, then there would be much fewer available guns for the law breakers to get a hold of.

Right. That line of approach always works well. Like when we banned alcohol, and how we currently ban illicit drugs. Which has had minimal effect on supply......

Quoting Bushpilot (Reply 21):
That is a main problem. I have been working with community youth here for the last 7 years, and time and time again, I have tried to deal with kids where thier parents blame everyone but thier own kid for thier poor behavior. it is the school's fault, the team coach, the police. Everyone else in the world is wrong about my kid!

 checkmark  my ex is a public school teacher - middle school level. Her biggest headache isn't her students, it is the parents of students that won't make their children do their homework, and when their test scores are low, the parents turn up at school not seeking answers but to berate teachers and demand that the grades be raised.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 23):
Hopefully this won't turn into another gun control debate.

 rotfl  I want world peace and and end to the AIDS crisis, which have about the same chance of occurring as your wish that a thread that starts off describing a school shooting not turn into a gun control debate.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 29):
I'd like to hear opinions on one idea of mine: children are too often thought to be undersized adults. People expect them to "function", which is to deal with all things life and their peers handle them with little help. In other words, some parents need to learn that giving your child food and a place to eat it (and sleep) doesn't solve all problems.

 checkmark  Parents have, to a great extent, stopped parenting. And the result of that lack of involvement has become painfully obvious.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 31):

Too many people in America have kids when they shouldn't and then blame everyone else when their kid goes on a rampage, makes bad grades, or turns out stupid when they are illiterate at 18 and can't even pass the high school graduation exams which anyone with a pulse should be able to pass.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
aloges
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting N174UA (Reply 33):
I'll bet Michael Moore conveniently forgot to mention how parents are responsible for the guns they own. Instead, I'll bet he blamed the NRA for it.

Do remember though that Bowling for Columbine wasn't as one-sided as... umm... that more recent movie whose name escapes me. The one about 9/11 and so on.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 33):
I can't speak for German schools

It differs a lot. My highschool has always appeared like a rock in a rough sea to me. The worst that ever happened was someone trying to apply CS gas to someone else he'd been feuding with for a while. However, the highschool system in Germany separates children after 4th or 6th grade (depending on the state) into three groups according to their grades. I do remember bullying at my school before grade 7, before that separation.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35):
 checkmark  Parents have, to a great extent, stopped parenting. And the result of that lack of involvement has become painfully obvious.

I think that's being too harsh. We just hear about it all the time these days, just like there have always been messed-up children, there have always been the messed-up parents to "produce" them.

Another sign of our times is the large percentage of female teachers in basic education. I may be attacked as sexist for saying it, but just as much as girls have every right to prefer turning to women with their problems, boys can profit greatly from male authorities in school. I also don't agree with the notion that every little brawl among 3rd graders is violence. It can turn into that, but all too often it keeps children from building up the aggression needed for turning to actual violence.

[Edited 2007-01-04 03:39:20]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
deltagator
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:38 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 34):
I like the sarcasm!

I thought it was pretty good as well. It can actually work but obviously it seems to be the chic thing to blame someone else when their kid becomes a killer or a moron. My parents paid attention to me despite me being a "latch key" kid sometimes and I think I turned out ok.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 34):
In other words, the last thing a government should do is throw stones at someone caught between a rock and a hard place.

Agreed. The problem is perhaps she saw that program as the easy way out and then blames it for her time away from her kid. Maybe she should have found a way to get off the governmental dole and get a job of her own. It is obviously a vicious cycle to break but it can be done with something it seems people are unwilling to do...hard work and sacrifice.

I vaguely remember the scene but I'm also aware of Michael Moore being a propagandist up there with Goebbels (other than the whole working to kill 6 million folks.) I take anything he says with a shaker of salt.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
kiwiinoz
Posts: 1999
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35):
Right. That line of approach always works well. Like when we banned alcohol, and how we currently ban illicit drugs. Which has had minimal effect on supply......

In fact, supply of alcohol under prohibition was obviousely MUCH less than than when legalised, (you don't honestly believe that alcohol supply and consumption as a total wasn't affected by prohibition do you??). Likewise, supply and consumption of "illicit" drugs is greater in areas where it is legal or decriminilised.

I'm not saying it bans don't dry up supply altogether, but it takes so many units out of the environment that it becomes that much harder to get hold of it, legally or illegally.
 
aloges
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 37):
get off the governmental dole and get a job of her own

In Flint, MI?  Wink The movie probably didn't tell the entire story, they hardly ever do, but the woman along with the rest of the community was helpless. It's not a bleeding-heart lefty issue, but one of a poorly executed government programme.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 37):
I vaguely remember the scene but I'm also aware of Michael Moore being a propagandist

Nowadays, he's just that because it sells better. But in the days of BfC, he was more of a critical, left-leaning journalist in my opinion. And he did expose a few scary folks in that movie!

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 37):
up there with Goebbels

Seriously, nazi comparisons are uncalled for - especially if you're talking to a German.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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falstaff
Posts: 5565
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 19):
The overall profile of the school is very mixed, 42% White, 28% Black, 20% Asian, 8% Hispanic, 1% American Native. In other words, a pretty typical urban school.

Not so typical for an urban Detroit school. Suburban Maybe. The school I teach at is 90% black 9% white and 1% Hispanic. Many of my black students came from Detroit Public Schools and never saw a white face in their school until they came to where they are now. To many of those students a white face would have stuck out and been unusual. Where I went to high school a Hispanic or Asian would have stuck out. It is relative to where you are.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 33):
I'll bet Michael Moore conveniently forgot to mention how parents are responsible for the guns they own. Instead, I'll bet he blamed the NRA for it.

I used to like Michael Moore until that back when he used to bad mouth big business for screwing the little guy, but once he got political I couldn't stand the guy. I once had a party where we burned his films in my fire pit. That was a load of Fun.

Quoting PLANAR (Reply 26):
Maybe manufacturers of fire-arms can be pressed to design their guns in such a way that a child/teen cannot fire it without additional help.

That sounds good, but for every safety device ever made for anything people will figure out how to disarm it. I remember seeing all kinds of stuff about car keys that send a signal to the car and will not allow it to start if the key was not used. Guess what people figured out how to steal cars with that system. When DVDs came out companies told us there was no way to copy them. Well people figured it out.

Plus guns last a long time. I have guns that are over 100 years old and they still operate like the day they were made. It would take forever for all the old guns to filter out of circulation. Some might say ban the old guns. Illegal owners and users of firearms don't tell authorities they have a gun so the only people that would be forced to give them up are the law abiding type who have all their guns registered. Plus not all guns in all states have to be registered. Only most pistols have to be registered in my state. I have about 20 guns that require no paperwork and if I didn't show them to anyone nobody would no I have them.

Also there are many people who import guns illegally into the USA. All the laws in the world would never keep them out. You can't use, have, import, sell cocaine either, but it isn't hard to get and people still use it. If there were no legal guns in the USA the trade would simply go underground.
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deltagator
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 39):
Seriously, nazi comparisons are uncalled for - especially if you're talking to a German.

I disagree. He is a master at the art of propaganda and who better to compare him to than Goebbels. As I said in my response Moore doesn't have the whole thing of killing 6 million Jews and however many countless others (gays, gypsies, etc.) on him which made Goebbels so nasty. What he does have is a masterful way of making a lie look good just like Goebbels.

Perhaps I don't understand since I'm not German but it seems you are a little sensitive here. It also seems that liberals (not you exclusively) can compare conservatives to Nazis with no recourse but if a conservative makes a comparison in the same vein then it is a bad thing.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
aloges
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 41):
Perhaps I don't understand since I'm not German but it seems you are a little sensitive here.

Probably - it's a German thing just like the disdain for national pride most of my countrymen share.

Good night (well, more like "early morning" in my case) though, I'll be off soon!
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
deltagator
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:01 pm

Point taken Aloges. Have a good night. And despite the past of Germany you should always have national pride. Just don't let it get crazy except during the World Cup.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
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falstaff
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:06 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 43):
And despite the past of Germany you should always have national pride

Everyone should have national pride. I love my country so I see no reason why others should not love theirs.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 36):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35): ÊÊ Parents have, to a great extent, stopped parenting. And the result of that lack of involvement has become painfully obvious.
I think that's being too harsh. We just hear about it all the time these days, just like there have always been messed-up children, there have always been the messed-up parents to "produce" them.

Let me elaborate. When I was a kid, we only had summer youth baseball as the one "organized" activity where other adults were in charge of directing us. The rest of the time, our parents supervised us.

Today, parents drop their kids off at morning day care on their way to work. Day care takes the kids to school, and picks them up afterwards. Parents come home, and after a quick stop at a fast food restaurant, it's time for karate lessons/swim practice/gymnanstic lessons etc. On the weekends, more of the same. Even when you are a toddler, parents organize "play dates" where child care is a shared event.

Too many parents spend more time serving as chauffeur than they do serving as parents.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 36):
Another sign of our times is the large percentage of female teachers in basic education. I may be attacked as sexist for saying it, but just as much as girls have every right to prefer turning to women with their problems, boys can profit greatly from male authorities in school.

When I was in elementary school back in the 60's, I had one male teacher and 6 female teachers. In middle and high school, the male/female ratio improved a bit, but is was always the case that we more women teachers.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 36):
I also don't agree with the notion that every little brawl among 3rd graders is violence. It can turn into that, but all too often it keeps children from building up the aggression needed for turning to actual violence.

 checkmark 

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 38):
Likewise, supply and consumption of "illicit" drugs is greater in areas where it is legal or decriminilised.

Since there are no verified statistics on the supply or amount of illicit drugs consumed, your statement is groundless.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 45):
Today, parents drop their kids off at morning day care on their way to work. Day care takes the kids to school, and picks them up afterwards. Parents come home, and after a quick stop at a fast food restaurant, it's time for karate lessons/swim practice/gymnanstic lessons etc. On the weekends, more of the same. Even when you are a toddler, parents organize "play dates" where child care is a shared event.

One reason why my two kids were limited to one outside activity. Parents are supposed to be parents, and the role of a parent isn't suppose to be a chauffeur.
 
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alaskaqantas
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:04 pm

Quoting JFKTOWERFAN (Reply 3):
But I guess that would cost money and money is obviously more important than people.

so seems the case in most of life, unfortunately  Sad

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 6):
it would be a beating or a stabbing.

those are already happening  Sad

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 8):
Everytime you figure a way to keep something out they people hell bent of doing something bad will figure out how to beat it. If only those kids put that much effort into their education.

1) yes kids always find ways to bring things in. I am currently in high school, 9th grade in ANC. In the hallways people openly talk about drugs and and how they are going to go smoke that crap. I can't believe kids get away with this.

2)If only education would put that much effort into us.
I don't mean the teachers, I am talking about how we are learning. Yes bush is right about one thing: "Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning?" ( Wink) The real problem is that the government can ask if we are learning, but do they do anything about it? no.
The national School Board Assos. (NSBA) have different plans that could contribute to learning... for instance one plan will allow for them to save, I believe, 67 billion dollars a year, by allowing kids to get a diploma at 16.
Some kids just shouldn't be in school, all they will do is create jobs for discipline principles (we currently have 6 principles at our school)

In ANC every single year the Anchorage School District has to figure out ways to cut money, this year it is $20 million. that doesn't include the 88+ million for PERS and TERS.

We need to be teaching to today's economy, society, and culture. We are being taught the same way as they were over 100 years ago. We need to be working in small groups of kids working on a project, with a project manager. At the end of the project the teacher evaluates what team did the best and you would be getting your grade that way. if you are the project manager you would get extra points or less points depending on how well you performed. We need to be stimulated, kids get bored, skip class, get in with the wrong group and then shooting, fights and death occur.

"to the 'C' students, I say: you too can be president!"
It seems that the students doing the shooting tend not to be straight A students. So I guess the gun carrying C students (I know not all students that receive C's carry guns) are just practicing to become president of the United States of America, they will know how to kill innocent people! yeah!  duck  (hehe, I KNOW not everyone agrees with me, but please don't chop my head off, we each have our own opinions on matters, which is the great thing about the human mind!)

I am currently writing a letter to the NSBA, I will post it on a new link once I am done.
~Cheers-
~~Kyle H.
to some people the sky is the limit, to aviation enthusiasts, its home!
 
itsjustme
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 36):
Do remember though that Bowling for Columbine wasn't as one-sided as... umm... that more recent movie whose name escapes me. The one about 9/11 and so on.

Fahrenheit 9/11. And just like BfC, 9/11 was full of mistruths and some very creative editing.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 29):
I always remember that story from "Bowling for Columbine" where a child grabbed a gun while the mother was far away working in some lowest-wage scam set up by authorities that didn't care one bit about the time she would have needed for her child.

IIRC, she was working at a restaurant in a mega-mall in Auburn Hills MI that was owned by Dick Clark Productions (remember when Moore and his crew ambushed Clark as he was getting into a van?). Moore, by an extreme stretch of one's imagination tried to somehow connect Clark to the shooting of the Flint school girl. Little, if any responsibility was pinned on the uncle with whom the child was staying for allowing the child to have access to a firearm. But as we all know, it's Moore's style to totally distort the truth and do whatever it takes to sell tickets to his wanna-be documentaries.
 
kiwiinoz
Posts: 1999
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RE: Another Good Old Fashioned School Shooting

Thu Jan 04, 2007 4:08 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 45):
Since there are no verified statistics on the supply or amount of illicit drugs consumed, your statement is groundless.

In facts and figures, you're right, it's groundless....however, in terms of common sense, I think it's pretty obvious. Apparently you don't agree, in which case there's no point us debating the topic much further....

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