dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:02 pm

Ford Motor Co. posted a net loss of $12.7 billion, or $6.79 a share, in 2006.
That tops Ford’s worst year on record, which was 1992, when the automaker posted a $7.39-billion loss. It also tops General Motors Corp.’s $10.6 billion loss in 2005.

Ford’s staggering, historic loss comes after the company bled $5.8 billion, or $3.05 per share, during the last three months of the year. That was on top of the $7 billion in losses through September.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...?AID=/20070125/BUSINESS01/70125006

And in related news:

Foreclosures soar in 2006


Home foreclosure filings surged to record levels across metro Detroit in 2006, adding to the misery of a region already suffering the effects of a sagging job market, plant closures and layoffs.

RealtyTrac Vice President Rick Sharga, whose company follows foreclosure rates nationwide, called it "the perfect storm" for Michigan -- a situation in which slow housing sales, loss of income and increasing monthly payments are bringing the house down on homeowners

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...D=/20070125/NEWS05/701250332&imw=Y


But the good news?:

Doughnut chain adding stores
60 new outlets mean franchise opportunity
January 25, 2007


Dunkin' Donuts Inc., the nation's largest doughnut chain, plans to double its presence in metro Detroit by adding 60 stores during the next five years.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...BUSINESS06/701250323/1002/BUSINESS
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12360
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:39 pm

ITS THE CRAPPY CARS!!!! When the only way to move the iron is offer huge rebates, that should tell you something. Last August, I bought a Mazda 6. [Note that Mazda is largely owned by Ford] and I got $3,500 in total rebates. That means Ford sold the car for about a $2,000 loss. Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Subaru almost never have to offer rebates and their dealers don't have to discount as much to sell cars - why? they make and have made cars with the reliability and quality that people want. To most people, they want their cars to be as reliable as a refrigerator and less about the looks - I mean, is the Honda Accord a 'good looking' car? Not really.
One of the biggest costs for Ford, GM and Chrysler for their USA ops retirees, something that is about $1,000 per car. Such losses are probably the source of their most of their losses. Toyota, Honda, Nissan are all non-union, started making cars in the USA after 1980, and are not obligated to pay for such costs.
Another issue for Ford, GM and Chrysler, is fleet sales. You almost never see a Honda for rent at Hertz or Avis. They don't need to sell to fleets to keep their lines active and in turn sell at losses to cover the costs to operate it at suitiable efficiency. It might be better for Ford/GM/Chrysler to stop selling to fleets unless they get the price they need to stay in business themselves.
When several years of multi-billion losses continue for GM/Ford/Chrysler, then they will fail, destroying the lives of millions, states like Michigan and the USA's economy. Perhaps the only way is to have a single-payer government controlled health care system releiving employers of that burdern, especially for retirees.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):
ITS THE CRAPPY CARS!!!!

I beg to differ. It is no longer a true quality issue, but a perception of quality.

US car makers have improved the quality of their cars to a point where they match many of the imports.

The problem is, Ford, GM and DCX lost their good names years ago, and no matter how much they have improved, people still see them as "crappy cars".
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
I beg to differ. It is no longer a true quality issue, but a perception of quality.

US car makers have improved the quality of their cars to a point where they match many of the imports.

The problem is, Ford, GM and DCX lost their good names years ago, and no matter how much they have improved, people still see them as "crappy cars".

That is exactly it. I love when someone jumps right to the "its the crappy cars" bit. The main thing hampering U.S. Auto makers at this point is the price of their product. If they can get their labor costs down, then the pricing should become more competitive. I've driven nothing but Ford or GM products and I have had no major problems with my cars.
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
US car makers have improved the quality of their cars to a point where they match many of the imports.

I almost agree, but to get there, the prices are way out of proportion IMO. And I think it's mostly due to union labor. We have a Ford F150 assembly plant about two miles from my house, most of my drinking buddies work there. Or at least for now - Ford is shutting it down early next year citing among other things, labor cost. They have people sweeping the damn floor that make nearly as much as a MCSE for crying out loud.

Quoting KROC (Reply 3):
The main thing hampering U.S. Auto makers at this point is the price of their product. If they can get their labor costs down, then the pricing should become more competitive. I've driven nothing but Ford or GM products and I have had no major problems with my cars.

 checkmark  Us too, but maybe not any longer. I have an F150, (second one) and my wife drives a Chevy Impala. We're going to be giving the car to our son this summer, and are starting to look for a new car for her. I'm not at all hell-bent on looking at just American, whereas until now, I wouldn't have considered anything but in the past.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3233
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:31 pm

So where are the armchair CEOs who demanded UA, AA, US, DL, and NW shut thier doors because of the losses they had, and why aren't they demanding Ford just close?
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Thu Jan 25, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 5):
So where are the armchair CEOs who demanded UA, AA, US, DL, and NW shut thier doors because of the losses they had,

Try Civ-Av. Big grin
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:13 am

The big problem here, besides your labor costs, is the products that the Americans offer.

Ford, GM, and Chrysler relied to heavily on gas-guzzling SUVs and Pickups, and once gas prices started going up, people looked at smaller cars. The final blow could have been started in the aftermath of Katrina and last spring (when the phaseout of MTBE to ethanol occurred).

Unfortunately, only now have the Big Three realized that SUV bubble has begun to bust, and are now starting to concentrate on more fuel-efficient crossovers.

Don't believe me, then explain the correlation of auto sales when gas prices go up; the American Big Three hurt, and the Asian Big Three report higher sales.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:32 am

Why is Ford wasting so much money in renaming there cars?
What was the point of renaming the Zephyr to the Mark Z after only 1 model year?
Why did they bring back another Lincoln pick up truck (Mark LT) after the Blackwood failed miserably?
Why are they wasting money with a Five Hundred-based Lincoln calling it the Mark S?
Why are they letting the Mercury brand sit idle?
All of the above are major blunders that Ford has put tons of money in to marketing.
Bring back the Concorde
 
raffik
Posts: 1530
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RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:47 am

Ford cars are so cheap inside! I hate the naff plastics. In the UK, they are just normal run of the mill things- nothing to set them apart and generally regarded as the poor mans car!
- Alec
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting Raffik (Reply 9):
In the UK, they are just normal run of the mill things- nothing to set them apart and generally regarded as the poor mans car!

Ford does own Rover and Jaguar which is far from a run of the mill poor mans car.

[Edited 2007-01-25 16:52:59]
Bring back the Concorde
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:30 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Why did they bring back another Lincoln pick up truck (Mark LT) after the Blackwood failed miserably?

Exactly. WTF? And why buy one anyhow? If you want pick up, buy an F-250. They come with leather. Look at some of the high line F-250s -- wow. If you want a Lincoln, buy a Town Car.

And to those who say crappy cars, I can not count the number of Crown Vics and Town Cars I've ridden in with 300 and even 400 thousand miles on them. Like DTW says, its now the perception of quality.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
PSA53
Posts: 2928
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:38 am

I sold my shares in Ford and made a small profit today.When you have 79 million shares traded on F, you could have a lot of short sell people lining up
in anticipating Ford going south even more so.But the stock is rather tame
considering the bad news.I decided to sit on the sidelines for a month or two.

I hope Ford can bounce back.I'm still going to buy a F-150 in the summer.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting Raffik (Reply 9):
Ford cars are so cheap inside! I hate the naff plastics. In the UK, they are just normal run of the mill things- nothing to set them apart and generally regarded as the poor mans car!

Not any more. That might have been true a few years back, but Ford's European products are as good as anything else on the road in its price bracket. The Mondeo and Focus are both outstanding cars, which is why it's something of a puzzle that the parent company do churn out cars of lesser quality (and certainly lesser in terms of technological expertise) in the US.

But it'd be interesting to see the breakdown of where the losses are: Are they in the US, or the rest of the world, or both?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 13):
But it'd be interesting to see the breakdown of where the losses are: Are they in the US, or the rest of the world, or both?

Good question.
I doubt its with there fleet sales. I know that is there cash cow. Perhaps they should come out with more models based on these successful lines of vehicles.
Bring back the Concorde
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 4):
And I think it's mostly due to union labor.

No it can't be labor costs, building cars in Mexico resulted in a savings of less than $700 per unit, taken with the avg price of a automobile in the United States today is $27,000, the savings just isn't there.

Union contracts do need to be reworked..how can you pay full salaries if they aren't working???Retiree medical, the government will need to finally get serious and come up with a plan for ALL business.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:40 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 15):
No it can't be labor costs, building cars in Mexico resulted in a savings of less than $700 per unit, taken with the avg price of a automobile in the United States today is $27,000, the savings just isn't there.

You are confusing the issue. The relevant statistic isn't gross revenue, it's gross profit. Revenue - Cost of Good Manufactured/Sold. If the average gross profit on the car is $2,000 (I don't know what it really is but just use the figure for an example), then increasing that figure by $700 is a 35% increase. I don't know how many other changes you could make that could increase gross profit by 35%.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
You are confusing the issue. The relevant statistic isn't gross revenue, it's gross profit. Revenue - Cost of Good Manufactured/Sold. If the average gross profit on the car is $2,000 (I don't know what it really is but just use the figure for an example), then increasing that figure by $700 is a 35% increase. I don't know how many other changes you could make that could increase gross profit by 35%.

You forgot to blame Clinton.  Silly
Bring back the Concorde
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
You forgot to blame Clinton.

Which one?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
PSA53
Posts: 2928
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:54 pm

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 17):
You forgot to blame Clinton.



Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
Which one?

George!

Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:14 am

PSA53:
LOL!  rotfl 
Bring back the Concorde
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Why are they letting the Mercury brand sit idle?

Why are they using the Mercury brand at all? Ford has seven brands, what distinct purpose does Mercury serve today?

The Ford Motor Co. is using an entire brand to fill a niche that could served with an additional trim line in their existing product line-up. It's the exact sort of inefficiency and brand dilution that is killing Ford.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:30 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 21):
Why are they using the Mercury brand at all? Ford has seven brands, what distinct purpose does Mercury serve today?

I think Ford should pump more blood in to the Mercury division and give it more distinct styling. Mercury should have retro car on the market, perhaps another Breezeway sedan?
Mercury should go after Audi, Acura and Infiniti.
Lincoln needs to return to the high-end luxury market. Same for Cadillac, just as the next Chrysler Imperial will compete in that class.
The big three has just about given up to Mercedes S-class and bmw 7 series.
It was foolish for Ford to kill the Lincoln Continental concept car that was supposed to come out in 2004.
Bring back the Concorde
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
I hope Ford can bounce back.I'm still going to buy a F-150 in the summer.

I recommend it is assembled in a plant other than Norfolk. Quality here hasn't been the same since they announced the closing. Or so I've heard.

Quoting AirCop (Reply 15):
Union contracts do need to be reworked..how can you pay full salaries if they aren't working???Retiree medical, the government will need to finally get serious and come up with a plan for ALL business.

Good point. I'm obviously not a fan of unions, and I think reworked is tame, but certainly a start.
 
lijnden
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:34 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 7:55 am

I cannot even buy an American made Ford anymore here in NL. Since 2003 Ford USA is not making anymore cars for the European market. Ford thinks that I will buy a Volvo XC90 or Range Rover when I replace my 2003 Ford Explorer Limited Edition V8 this year. They are so very wrong! (the mentioned cars are in the same price range here in NL; € 70000,= to € 85000,= and are build by Fords' sister companies)

As far as quality I can only say that my Ford USA car never gave me any problem and that the car is still driving like new after 100000 km of brutal roads, high speeds and severe weather conditions. I do have to say that my Ford USA was factory made for EU-export with all the specs. The only bad thing is fuel economy, but that is not new.
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAH-ORF
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:04 am

I'd like to see Ford & Mercury bring back the large station wagon to be based off there existing panther platform (Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, Town Car).
The 4.6 and 5.4 liter V8s are very fuel efficient and would be the ideal alternative to the SUV which isn't so popular anymore.
They could also compete with the current Dodge Magnum.

[Edited 2007-01-26 00:04:57]
Bring back the Concorde
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:13 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 13):
Quoting Raffik (Reply 9):
Ford cars are so cheap inside! I hate the naff plastics. In the UK, they are just normal run of the mill things- nothing to set them apart and generally regarded as the poor mans car!

Not any more. That might have been true a few years back, but Ford's European products are as good as anything else on the road in its price bracket.

Ironically, the people I knew who always swore by Ford in the days of the bland Escorts, Fiestas, Granadas, etc., which I hated, finally seemed to get fed up with the quality and move to something else just as the Focus-era cars were appearing and I was starting to like them. I have to assume some of those people were drawn back and that a lot of new admirers were won.

Quoting Banco (Reply 13):
But it'd be interesting to see the breakdown of where the losses are: Are they in the US, or the rest of the world, or both?

I did hear in passing that Jaguar and Landrover both made losses but I don't know any more details.

From the BBC:

"However, the company said it remained confident that it would return to profit by 2009"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6298463.stm

I guess we'll haqve to wait and see.
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting David L (Reply 26):
However, the company said it remained confident that it would return to profit by 2009"

We will have to wait and see, what platforms will help them achieve profitability?
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting David L (Reply 26):
Ironically, the people I knew who always swore by Ford in the days of the bland Escorts, Fiestas, Granadas, etc., which I hated, finally seemed to get fed up with the quality and move to something else

Can't speak for the Escorts and Fiestas fans but the Granada's were terrific cars and everyone I've known thats owned/own one gave raving reviews of them. Even the 1980s Fox-based Granada.
The Granada/Monarch/Versailles were all wonderful cars, as long as you bought them with the V8.

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 27):
We will have to wait and see, what platforms will help them achieve profitability?

Every Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis and Town Car sold is a net profit because those designs bate back years ago.
Bring back the Concorde
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:29 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 16):
The relevant statistic isn't gross revenue, it's gross profit. Revenue - Cost of Good Manufactured/Sold. If the average gross profit on the car is $2,000

The crap that Ford built in Mexico (Ford Escort and its Mercury counterpart) couldn't be sold for a profit even with the Mexican labor, but Ford had to sell them to meet the avg miles per gallon rules for the entire number of vehicles sold that were in effect. 1.e. if you sold 200 Crown Vic's you needed to sell more Escorts to raise the total Ford sales mpg.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 29):
The crap that Ford built in Mexico (Ford Escort and its Mercury counterpart) couldn't be sold for a profit even with the Mexican labor, but Ford had to sell them to meet the avg miles per gallon rules for the entire number of vehicles sold that were in effect. 1.e. if you sold 200 Crown Vic's you needed to sell more Escorts to raise the total Ford sales mpg.

...and because Ford makes the best trucks, best full-sized sedans which are on the lower scale for mpg, they need to churn out a lot of junk on the low end to keep there fleet averages high.
Bring back the Concorde
 
raffik
Posts: 1530
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:50 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:38 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
Ford does own Rover and Jaguar which is far from a run of the mill poor mans car.

Both of which use British designs and build quality.

Before I purchased my new car in September, I went to see my local Chrysler garage. Oh my God, the interiors are just vile. Hard plastics, basic, utilitarian dashboards, hard seats, cheap switches and horrid interiors! The external styling is spot on, but the interior was not as expected.

Quoting Banco (Reply 13):
Not any more. That might have been true a few years back, but Ford's European products are as good as anything else on the road in its price bracket.

To a certain extent, I agree, but Fords are generally seen as a bog standard vehicle- often referred to as the "Dagenham rust buckets".
Don't get me wrong, I had a Ford Focus a few years ago and enjoyed the ride, but the styling compared to my Mazda 3 that I had afterwards, was well below par.

I think for many years, Ford neglected to update its' image. When they launched a facelift, it was so bland and minimal, it just didn't do anything to raise the bar. Nothing exciting, just people movers!

Vauxhall have given their cars a face lift (New Vectra, Astra, Corsa & Zafira) but Ford haven't...
- Alec
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:39 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
Ford makes the best trucks, best full-sized sedans

Turn those into hybrid powertrains and get rid of the low end crap.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 32):
Turn those into hybrid powertrains and get rid of the low end crap.

Are you joking?
Bring back the Concorde
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:44 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Thread starter):
Ford Motor Co. posted a net loss of $12.7 billion

Does anyone know where they saw it last? I'll help them look for it.




The worst thing is that they've now mortgaged the entire set of fixed assets including the name to raise capital for their rebuilding plan.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:50 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
Are you joking?

No - do you have a better idea to help raise their dismal around town gas mileage figures?

[Edited 2007-01-26 00:50:59]
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 28):
but the Granada's were terrific cars and everyone I've known thats owned/own one gave raving reviews of them. Even the 1980s Fox-based Granada.
The Granada/Monarch/Versailles were all wonderful cars, as long as you bought them with the V8.

Are we talking about the same Granadas? The UK ones I experienced here were obviously better than the Escort and Fiesta but far too plasticky for an executive car. It has to be said that British Leyland cars were much
worse at that time but that's no excuse for Ford.  Smile

Quoting Raffik (Reply 31):
When they launched a facelift, it was so bland and minimal, it just didn't do anything to raise the bar.

To me it was a revelation. After years of cheap cloth seats and fittings, I think the interiors in particular are a vast improvement. Perhaps the base models are still bland - I haven't really looked - but the ones I've seen and been in are quite stylish, for a basic car. Maybe they've gone downhill again in the last five years or so.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting David L (Reply 36):
Are we talking about the same Granadas?

No I was refering to the mid-sized sedans and coupes sold here in the USA. They weren't sold in Europe.

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 35):
No - do you have a better idea to help raise their dismal around town gas mileage figures?

Well they could always put in smaller crappier engines but I am glad they don't.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
The worst thing is that they've now mortgaged the entire set of fixed assets including the name to raise capital for their rebuilding plan.

Agreed and closing there Wixom plant was a stupid move on Ford's part.
Bring back the Concorde
 
eclipseflight7
Posts: 482
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:00 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:30 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 21):
Why are they using the Mercury brand at all?

Old people? If grandma gets going at 30 miles an hour in the fast lane, its going to be a quarter of a mile before she realizes she might have to brake. With a Mercury she can just drive through the other cars.

But I love my Ford. She's the only girl thats never dumped me.



Is Ford going to be ditching their subsidaries anytime soon? Jaguar has never really made a profit, so why keep injecting money into a perceived luxury brand when its not really using it effectively?
Holy sh*ts and burritos.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
Ford does own Rover and Jaguar which is far from a run of the mill poor mans car.



Quoting EclipseFlight7 (Reply 38):
Jaguar has never really made a profit

Have neither of you heard of the Jaguar X-Type? That's the same platform as a Ford Mondeo... not the way to go if you want to keep the charisma of a company like Jaguar.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 39):
not the way to go if you want to keep the charisma of a company like Jaguar.

How easily people forget how bad Jag was.

"Out of control expenses and horrible quality had doomed Jaguar, which desperately needed to be rescued. For a little more than $2 billion, Ford became the owner of antiquated factories, employees who made their work quotas by mid-morning and cars, as former Jaguar Chairman (now Ford NAO boss) Nick Scheele once told me, that had more than 400 defects per vehicle, ranging from spots in the paint to mechanical problems.

Ford proved to be a generous, if not benevolent owner, pouring billions of dollars into facilities, training and product. Ford was careful to preserve elements of Jaguar that defined its image and worked hard to gain employee confidence.

In the 10-plus years since Ford took over, Jaguar has improved dramatically in all measures, especially quality -- it ranked second behind Lexus in the most recent J.D. Power survey. Jaguar had only 108 defects per 100 vehicles compared to 85 for Lexus. Not only was it the only Ford brand above average, it was the only Ford brand that improved year-to-year. Its quality is above its peers in the luxury sector -- BMW's at 119 defects per 100 vehicles and Mercedes-Benz's at 129 defects per 100 -- and manufacturing productivity has dramatically improved."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3012/is_8_181/ai_79007325
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halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:43 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):
One of the biggest costs for Ford, GM and Chrysler for their USA ops retirees, something that is about $1,000 per car. Such losses are probably the source of their most of their losses. Toyota, Honda, Nissan are all non-union, started making cars in the USA after 1980, and are not obligated to pay for such costs.

This crushing burden will likely kill off the big 3. Way to go unions, you've successfully killed the goose that lays the golden egg.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 2):
I beg to differ. It is no longer a true quality issue, but a perception of quality.

That is definitely true. I rent a lot of cars on business, and I've noticed a steady improvement in Detroit build quality and performance. Now if they would just build cars that weren't so butt ugly.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 7):
The big problem here, besides your labor costs, is the products that the Americans offer.

True again. When I bought my current vehicle - 2004 Acura TL - there was only one real Detroit offering in that price and performance range - a Cadillac, and it was significantly more expensive. Detroit as simply abandoned the upscale performance sedan market to Acura, Audi, BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, and Mercedes.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Stretch 8
Posts: 2468
Joined: Fri May 28, 1999 4:00 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:11 am

It all begins and ends with the product. Ford has suffered this year due to many people delaying or skipping the purchase of an F-150 truck or Explorer SUV due to the high fuel costs.

But look at the other Ford prodcuts. The Mustang is okay, and I have driven it as a rental but I have the feeling it will not last much past 80K or so. The "Five-Hundred" resembles a cross between a Passat and Soviet-era Zil limo. Re-work that model, give it a big pig of an engine, and re-name it the "Galaxy 500," the best name EVER for a car.

Also, dump Mercury. Keep Lincoln, but not an idiotic pick-up truck.
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:29 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 40):
Quoting Aloges (Reply 39):
not the way to go if you want to keep the charisma of a company like Jaguar.

How easily people forget how bad Jag was.

Very true but...

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 40):
In the 10-plus years since Ford took over, Jaguar has improved dramatically in all measures, especially quality

... doesn't that apply to all models? To a certain extent I agree with Aloges about the X-Type: I guess it does make the brand available to more people but I think there needs to be a clear demarcation between the other Jaguar models and Ford models.
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:40 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):
They don't need to sell to fleets to keep their lines active and in turn sell at losses to cover the costs to operate it at suitiable efficiency. It might be better for Ford/GM/Chrysler to stop selling to fleets unless they get the price they need

Gentlemen, you have missed the point the cost associated with their production is a lot higher than the imports in addition to all the extras that the imported cars come with. The labour costs in the US are killing the car industry, don't get me wrong I believe in a fair wage, however the Unions are the ones that have put Ford where it is, of course with help from management. They both have to take their share of the problem. It seems to me that the Unions in your country and mine are hell bent on sending jobs to other countries and then complain that jobs are leaving. So it is time for all sides to sit down and do a complete job of reassessing where they are, other wise in 20 years there will be no car industry left in the US or Canada. Don't get me wrong I am not trying to start a Union verses mangement thing here, just stating my feelings
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting Stretch 8 (Reply 42):
Also, dump Mercury.

No keep Mercury!
Bring back the Concorde
 
flight152
Posts: 3211
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 45):
No keep Mercury!

Why? Mercury has no product that Ford doesn't sell. Their rebadging is even worse then GM. I don't see what purpose it serves. Reminds me of Oldsmobile and how bad that brand was when GM killed it.

On the topic of Jaguar, except for the New XK, Jaguar needs serious help. Lack of new products is really hurting this brand. The X and S-types are showing serious age, and can't keep up with their competition.
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 29):
if you sold 200 Crown Vic's you needed to sell more Escorts to raise the total Ford sales mpg.

That was the main reason why a diesel engine was offered as an option on the Escort during the mid-80s. IMHO, that option became available 2 to 3 years too late; due to gas prices plunging during 1984-1986.


Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
I'd like to see Ford & Mercury bring back the large station wagon to be based off there existing panther platform (Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis, Town Car).
The 4.6 and 5.4 liter V8s are very fuel efficient and would be the ideal alternative to the SUV which isn't so popular anymore.
They could also compete with the current Dodge Magnum.

Amen to that!  checkmark 

Although w/regards to competing w/the Dodge Magnum is concerned:
While the 120" wheelbase helps w/legroom; its short & narrow exterior dimensions kill it in terms of shoulder room (57"-58"), hip room (55"-56") & cargo space (71.6 cubic feet with the 2nd row seat folded down).
http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/VehicleCompare.jsp

In contrast, the '91 Ford/Mercury full-size wagons offered more shoulder (60")& hip (58") room as well as cargo space (over 90 cubic feet w/all the rear seats folded). Plus with these wagons offered extra seating (dual-facing rear seats); being over 15" longer in length than the present Magnum wagon makes this option very doable.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Ford Loses $12.7 Billion

Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 46):
Why? Mercury has no product that Ford doesn't sell. Their rebadging is even worse then GM.

Well aware of that. Mercury needs to stick around and set it's self apart from Ford in terms of styling.
The GM divisons are more distictive but all still looks bland. The Ford/Mercury designs look better to begin with IMHO.



PHLBOS:
I hope some execs at Ford are reading this.
Bring back the Concorde

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