Thorben
Topic Author
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Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:08 am

Look at this video:

http://www.stern.de/politik/ausland/...bsen%21-%DCberholen%21/581259.html

GTA anybody??

Like this is going to help. If people want to blow up a US vehicle, they'll just put a car of with explosives on the streets and wait until a US convoy tries to push them off the road. However, if an occupation army behaves like this, they shouldn't be surprised when people to more than forming a fist in their pocket.
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airtran737
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):
Like this is going to help. If people want to blow up a US vehicle, they'll just put a car of with explosives on the streets and wait until a US convoy tries to push them off the road. However, if an occupation army behaves like this, they shouldn't be surprised when people to more than forming a fist in their pocket.

I agree that this isn't the best behavior. The US doesn't stop for a reason when they're driving, but damaging private property shouldn't be an intentional part of the routine.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Thorben
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:19 am

What I forgot to add: How can they call this a patrol? What are they controlling? Nothing I would say, they are so busy trying to not get hit themselves that they can't do anything for the protection of the population.

Is there a good English word for "Spießrutenlauf"??
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rammstein
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
Nothing I would say, they are so busy trying to not get hit themselves that they can't do anything for the protection of the population.

Actually, they pose a risk for themself and also the population.

And, not last, I'm sure this behavior is perceived as arrogant by the population, no need to wonder why.

[Edited 2007-01-27 20:31:48]
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Coz
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:29 am

I can understand the need to drive like this, but no wonder so many Iraqis absolutely hate the US.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):

I hate to use the term, "You simply don't know what you're talking about." But it absolutely applies in this situation. You don't know what you're talking about.  no 

So let me educate you:

The most dangerous position for the convoy to be in, is a dead stop. And it's NOT just car bombs to worry about, Thorben. When you have halted, you are now more vulnerable to the following:

-Snipers.
-People (even children) throwing grenades. Do not forget the gunner's hatch is open on the roof.
-Small arms fire.
-Insurgents using vehicles to "trap" you in a box, where they can attack you.
-RPGs

With movement and speed, comes increased safety. It's as simple as that.

Each HWMMV has signs that order other motorists to stay clear from anywhere between 50-200feet (city dependent). The tactic of "never stopping" has been in place for over two years, the Iraqis are well familiar with it. The troops have orders not to use excessive ramming - and that video shows he was "tapping" them. He certainly could have used more force.

And here is the kicker: Any damage American troops cause - whether it's kicking down your door, ruining your crops by landing a helicopter in your field, accidentally killing your herd, OR GETTING YOUR CAR RAMMED... you can get financial reimbursement from the US military.

But all of that aside: the fact that this tactic has proven to save GI's lives... it's worth a bunch of dented fenders.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
What I forgot to add: How can they call this a patrol? What are they controlling? Nothing I would say, they are so busy trying to not get hit themselves that they can't do anything for the protection of the population.

Again... you don't know what's going on.

That wasn't an area patrol. That was most likely one of the following: a supply convoy transiting to another base. Or a convoy moving to/from an objective. Each unit is given a mission in a specific zone.... it can be a weapons cache search, it can be a road block, a road-side check point, etc... but they need to transit from the base to the zone of operations.

During this transit, they cannot become bogged down in traffic... nor are they suppose to "patrol". Their objective is to get to their destination on time, and most importantly - fully intact.

A vehicle mounted patrol is conducted differently than what was seen in the video. The patrol remains mobile and travels on selected routes. They're mobile until trouble arises, at which point troops unmount and proceed on foot. Totally different than what you're watching here.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
L-188
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:54 am

Are you trying to get US troops killed!?!?

There is a concept that you need to understand. Exposure.

The longer you are sitting out there the more likely that somebody will find the time to take a shot at you. You want to keep moving, not sitting still in a traffic jam. Also keep in mind that on most highways and autobahns in the world you don't have to worry about the car next to you going boom (Except maybe in Detroit).

Somebody who is overthere might want to check, but I believe that it is posted that Coalition forces vehicles have the right of way...in fact if you watch the video several cars yeild to the right before the truck gets up to them. It is only the ones that don't that get a love tap.


Oh and one other thought.....if you ain't rubbing you ain't racing!!!

Which is why F1 sucks!
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turbo7x7
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:14 am

It's damned if you do and damned if you don't, which is all part and parcel of being stuck in a quagmire.

If a convoy slows down and is more "respectful" of traffic, they make themselves easier targets.

Of course, the other way tends to spark resentment for "the occupiers" by the locals.

It's all part of the Catch-22 of occupational and counterinsurgency warfare.

Interestingly, the insurgents/militias/death squads continue to learn and adapt. It seems they are stealing American SUVs (or acquiring them through corrupt channels) and imitating the way U.S. convoys drive in order to penetrate areas they couldn't get into before.

And so the quagmire trudges ever on. . .
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:32 am

Whats wrong with the way they're driving??!!

Signed,
Phoenix
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NoUFO
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:04 am

Thorben, while I agree that this is not an appropriate way to win the Iraqi's hearts, it's obvious that they don't do it for fun and have no choice. Plus, I could imagine it's well in your interest not to have a military vehicle right behind you if driving in Baghdad, since many consider those moving targets.

Oh, and do yourself a favour and stop reading Stern.

[Edited 2007-01-27 22:07:19]
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AeroWesty
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:48 am

Okay, I watched the whole video, looking for something which would cause concern. It reminded me of the scene in Patton where he walks onto the bridge to find out what's causing the hold-up and shoots the donkey who won't move.

As much as people have on occasion painted me as a tree-hugging, bleeding heart liberal, if I had a son or daughter in Iraq who died in service, the last thing I'd want to hear when I asked how it happened would be, "saving a fender, sir".

Iraq is a sovereign nation, and if they have a problem with how convoys move or where choppers land, they could at any time simply show us the door.
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Klaus
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
As much as people have on occasion painted me as a tree-hugging, bleeding heart liberal, if I had a son or daughter in Iraq who died in service, the last thing I'd want to hear when I asked how it happened would be, "saving a fender, sir".

Of course it would be much better hearing they died because the attacker's brother was run over by a US tank when driving his taxi on the freeway (as described in the article) and simply hated their guts ever since. That would be much nicer to know, wouldn't it?  Yeah sure

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
Iraq is a sovereign nation,

No, it's not. It's an occupied nation.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
and if they have a problem with how convoys move or where choppers land, they could at any time simply show us the door.

They've been doing that for three years already.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
Of course it would be much better hearing they died because the attacker's brother was run over by a US tank when driving his taxi on the freeway (as described in the article) and simply hated their guts ever since.

Despite taking three years of German in high school, I wasn't able to read the article, and the thread-starter didn't show us the courtesy of any background information outside of his rant. Regardless, the rules of the road have been clearly stated, and without knowing the circumstances of the unfortunate incident, I also have to rely upon the aspect of personal responsibility.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
No, it's not. It's an occupied nation.

Last I looked Iraq has its own government who've asked us not to leave just yet. If you have any information to dispute that, I'd be welcome to look it over as always.
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Joge
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
The most dangerous position for the convoy to be in, is a dead stop.

You went to Iraq knowing the risks. Now you're afraid to die? Hey, but it's just a reality TV-show of a FPS game, right...

And a bit off-topic, US troops in Iraq have nothing to do with defending US. It's just BS that everybody believes.

-Joge
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L-188
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting Joge (Reply 21):
You went to Iraq knowing the risks. Now you're afraid to die?

That was very inappropriate, for a number of reasons.

May I quote the famous introduction speech from, "Patton"

No poor dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for their country. They won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for theirs"
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pelican
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:19 am

This thread shows that empathy isn't a frequent attribute.

As an American soldier I would want to drive as fast as possible (no matter whether I ram some old Iraqi cars).

As an Iraqi civilian I would be pissed to get rammed by an US car. Just imagine someone rams you on your way to work. How would you feel? Than imagine this happens regularly...

Solution?


pelican
 
soups
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:41 am

Recall the old days on bumping cars
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L-188
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:42 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 23):
As an Iraqi civilian I would be pissed to get rammed by an US car. Just imagine someone rams you on your way to work. How would you feel? Than imagine this happens regularly...

Solution?

Follow the sign on the front of the convoy truck that UH60 mentioned.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
pelican
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 25):

Follow the sign on the front of the convoy truck that UH60 mentioned.

 Yeah sure Because that's always possible...

pelican
 
NoUFO
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 23):
This thread shows that empathy isn't a frequent attribute.

True.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 23):
Solution?

It may be difficult to bear, but there's no solution both sides can live with. But bumping into one's car is certainly the lesser evil. More so since a threat posed to the vehicle behind you is at the same time something that puts you at risk - a risk bigger than having a damaged fender.

Maybe those Army vehicles should come with horns as standard.  Wink
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pelican
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:14 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 27):

It may be difficult to bear, but there's no solution both sides can live with. But bumping into one's car is certainly the lesser evil. More so since a threat posed to the vehicle behind you is at the same time something that puts you at risk - a risk bigger than having a damaged fender.

I agree it is the lesser evil.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 27):
Maybe those Army vehicles should come with horns as standard.

Doesn't he use the horn all the time?  Confused

pelican
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:40 am

I'm still freakin amazed all of you have totally ignored what I said earlier:  Yeah sure

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
And here is the kicker: Any damage American troops cause - whether it's kicking down your door, ruining your crops by landing a helicopter in your field, accidentally killing your herd, OR GETTING YOUR CAR RAMMED... you can get financial reimbursement from the US military.

And to be honest... it's kinda annoying listening to people bitch about this. It's funny - watching a 3minute video automatically makes some people feel they're expert enough on what happens here, to make such absurd statements.

We're talking about keeping people ALIVE. And it amazes me that some of you feel comfortable enough - sitting in your safe homes, totally removed from this war - to pass judgement on these soldiers.

More people are concerned with the bumpers on the vehicles, then they are with keeping soldiers alive. It's pretentious and unbelieve.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:55 am

Quoting Joge (Reply 21):
You went to Iraq knowing the risks. Now you're afraid to die?

You know...my best response to this would get me permabanned...

So what you're saying is our troops should just go out on a stroll, lay down their arms, and hold up signs saying "Shoot me"? They can't defend themselves while over there?

Quoting Pelican (Reply 28):
Doesn't he use the horn all the time?

That horn must get replaced every other day with as much as he was using it...
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 28):
Doesn't he use the horn all the time?

It's not a real horn. It's one of those "beep-beep" pieces of shit. If they wanted to mean business, they'd use air horns or European emergency vehicle horns.

Mark
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L-188
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 30):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
And here is the kicker: Any damage American troops cause - whether it's kicking down your door, ruining your crops by landing a helicopter in your field, accidentally killing your herd, OR GETTING YOUR CAR RAMMED... you can get financial reimbursement from the US military.

I did see that. And I heard the same thing in Germany if we accidently tore up some farmers field. (I understand that damage bills ran into the millions during the "Reforger" exercies.)

But even if I know the other guys insurance is going to be paying for it, I am going to be pissed about it.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 32):
It's not a real horn. It's one of those "beep-beep" pieces of shit. If they wanted to mean business, they'd use air horns or European emergency vehicle horns

Exactly, but I think they should call Union Pacific or Amtrek and see they have some locomotives they are parting out.
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JAGflyer
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:25 am

Once again US troops are fu*king around in Iraq. After the prisoner abuse, taunting kids and now ramming motorists i'm starting to believe the line of "stay in school or go to iraq". I know there are plenty doing good things but these "soldiers" definitely fall into the category of "unintelligent in Iraq".

[Edited 2007-01-28 02:26:05]

[Edited 2007-01-28 02:26:26]
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NAV20
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:27 am

Couple of practical questions, if you don't mind, UH60:-

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
you can get financial reimbursement from the US military

1. How does that work, exactly? Does the US Army have shopfront 'Liaison and Compensation Centres' in each suburb, staffed by smiling PR people in Class A uniforms instead of camouflage? You just walk in, claim for a damaged car (or maybe a dead child, did you see that kid having to jump for his life in the video?) and they write you out a chit and send you over to the cashier?

2. Have you visited any of the zones controlled by Commonwealth forces - like the British or the Australians? Are their convoys allowed to drive round in the same way? I for one would be utterly astonished if they were.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):


I hate to use the term, "You simply don't know what you're talking about." But it absolutely applies in this situation. You don't know what you're talking about.

 checkmark 

Quoting Joge (Reply 21):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
The most dangerous position for the convoy to be in, is a dead stop.

You went to Iraq knowing the risks. Now you're afraid to die? Hey, but it's just a reality TV-show of a FPS game, right...

Utterly baffling comment.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 30):
I'm still freakin amazed all of you have totally ignored what I said earlier:

Just like a couple other members here. Why the hell should they listen to you, even acknowledging your post would shut Thorben down, as he obviously has no grasp of military convoy/patrol operations. Even Klaus is hard pressed to make a decent argument - "occupation" indeed. Same thing happened in another thread. One of the bests posts in the thread ignored, because the Arm Chair Generals here all know better than they guy that takes incoming every day.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 35):
1. How does that work, exactly? Does the US Army have shopfront 'Liaison and Compensation Centres' in each suburb, staffed by smiling PR people in Class A uniforms instead of camouflage? You just walk in, claim for a damaged car (or maybe a dead child, did you see that kid having to jump for his life in the video?) and they write you out a chit and send you over to the cashier?

Sarcasm, I recognize that. Well done at that.
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davestanKSAN
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:41 am

Seriously why do some people criticize the US Military for everything they do? I'm not saying every Serviceman/Woman is perfect, but come on.

Do you move aside for Emergency vehicles when you're driving? Are they being arrogant for putting their sirens on and making cars move out of their way? No. Why? Because someones life is at risk, or they need to get somewhere ASAP. Same situation here. Do you really expect US troops to sit in traffic like they were driving a carpool?? No, that doesn't make sense. I don't think when Mrs. Smith takes Johnny and his pals to school she is getting shot at.

on a side note "This guy just picking his nose." haha

Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):

Which is why F1 sucks!

   Hey the F1 steering wheel can turn left AND right. Haha, just kidding I like all forms of racing, every driver has lots of talent and I'd love to have their job.

Dave

[Edited 2007-01-28 03:44:28]
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turbo7x7
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:03 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 30):
I'm still freakin amazed all of you have totally ignored what I said earlier:

Just like a couple other members here. Why the hell should they listen to you, even acknowledging your post would shut Thorben down, as he obviously has no grasp of military convoy/patrol operations. Even Klaus is hard pressed to make a decent argument - "occupation" indeed. Same thing happened in another thread. One of the bests posts in the thread ignored, because the Arm Chair Generals here all know better than they guy that takes incoming every day.

Well, if their car gets totaled enough so that they get enough money to flee the country and go to Syria or Jordan, then I guess it works out fine after all!  Smile

I'm sure the U.S. means well, but c'mon people be real. . . is a reimbursement check enough to "win hearts and minds?"  Yeah sure With so many businesses in Baghdad closing or shutting down, I wonder if you can even use that money to repair the car! Probably the cash will end up being used for something else.

I can't slam the guys who are doing this, I understand the position they're in and how dangerous this work can be. Just one moment of playing nice guy at the wrong time, and you're dead!

Let me be 100% clear: if I was in their position, I would be doing the exact same thing. And anyone who's slamming them is just being hypocritical because so would they!

This phenomena simply underscores the craziness and the paradox of the type of warfare that our troops are being forced to wage. Like I said, damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

On a related note: here's the beginning of an article in the Sunday NY Times entitled, "It has Unraveled so Quickly," an eye-opener on just how badly things have deteriorated and how all the good non-violent moderate Iraqis are bailing out of the country, or are dead:

A PAINFUL measure of just how much Iraq has changed in the four years since I started coming here is contained in my cellphone. Many numbers in the address book are for Iraqis who have either fled the country or been killed. One of the first Sunni politicians: gunned down. A Shiite baker: missing. A Sunni family: moved to Syria.

. . .

The moderates are mostly gone. My phone includes at least a dozen entries for middle-class families who have given up and moved away. They were supposed to build democracy here. Instead they work odd jobs in Syria and Jordan. Even the moderate political leaders have left. I have three numbers for Adnan Pachachi, the distinguished Iraqi statesman; none have Iraqi country codes.


I urge you all to read the whole article here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/we...eview/28tave.html?ref=weekinreview
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:28 pm

-

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
I hate to use the term, "You simply don't know what you're talking about." But it absolutely applies in this situation. You don't know what you're talking about. no
--
So let me educate you:
--
The most dangerous position for the convoy to be in, is a dead stop. And it's NOT just car bombs to worry about, Thorben. When you have halted, you are now more vulnerable to the following:
--
-Snipers.
-People (even children) throwing grenades. Do not forget the gunner's hatch is open on the roof.
-Small arms fire.
-Insurgents using vehicles to "trap" you in a box, where they can attack you.
-RPGs
--
With movement and speed, comes increased safety. It's as simple as that.

-
The military explanation sounds good. The other side however is that
A) there are many Iraqis who have their cars seriously damaged, without having had a chance to avoid having been attacked -- and serious costs resulting
B) there are many Iraqi whose life often gets threatened by the occupiers of their country
C) the apparent mis-behaviour in the eyes of the victims is oppressive
-
And whatever "justification" is given, two questions remain :
> to what extent is it just showing off as big boys ?
> to what extent can people behaving so madly really control anything
> to what extent does it really reduce the danger of being hit by a well placed "depot" ? For instance if that is managed by wireless from a distance of 650 meters ?
-
 
TheSorcerer
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:11 pm

Does the US army pay for any damage caused?

Dominic
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Klaus
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 30):
I'm still freakin amazed all of you have totally ignored what I said earlier:

No, not at all.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 30):
More people are concerned with the bumpers on the vehicles, then they are with keeping soldiers alive. It's pretentious and unbelieve.

Wrong again. I couldn't care less about the bumpers - what the video did for me was to illuminate the state of affairs from a different angle.

And occupation troops routinely pushing the native citicens off the road and pointing their guns at them for fear of their own lives has given me the thoroughly unscientific and subjective impression that the case has been irretrievably lost already.

I can absolutely be wrong about this; And it's not necessarily directed at the drivers of the military vehicles.

What the video did first and foremost was to illustrate the state of the escalation mechanism which is in full gear in Iraq - every driver shoved off the road is one iraqi more to loathe you, regardless whether he can get any (sufficient?) reimbursement or not.

Have you ever been pushed in regular traffic at home in your own car? How did that feel? Even when it was not a military vehicle of a foreign force occupying your home country?

When the situation is such that the US troops feel compelled to act this way on a normal day, it gives me the subjective impression that the Iraq adventure is already beyond the point of no return; That you might not be able to turn anything around any more by simply getting even more troops in there.

The entire occupation situation has put certain psychological, societal and military mechanisms in motion, and none of them have ever been even close to being under control.

A realistic strategy would have had to steer it all towards a buildup of a functioning civilian country with mostly self-regulating relationships between the participants, but such a strategy was completely absent from day one. A rigid cookie-cutter ideology is no replacement there.

And both the coalition troops on the ground and the iraqi population had to try getting by somehow, with warlords and other interests more or less having free reign to further their own particular interests in the developing chaos. Today they appear to be in the driver seat, pushing the buttons and controlling the dynamics.

It looks like at least to 99% a strategic failure, not one of implementation.

As I said, I can be very wrong about this, and it has little if anything to do with a criticism of the troops on the ground - but at that level of fear and loathing, how many options can there be in more of the same - reallySad

All the best to you and the guys around you - take care!
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41):
And whatever "justification" is given, two questions remain :
> to what extent is it just showing off as big boys ?
> to what extent can people behaving so madly really control anything
> to what extent does it really reduce the danger of being hit by a well placed "depot" ? For instance if that is managed by wireless from a distance of 650 meters ?

Your ignorance of combat tactics is failing you MAF. You should stop while you're ahead.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 43):

Great post Klaus. However, you're talking Strategies here for the most part. What you still don't get - I guess - is Tactics. The guys on the ground, in the shit, aren't responsible for the Strategy. You sound like MAF. Sorry to have put you in the same class there.

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 42):
Does the US army pay for any damage caused?

Yes.

Quoting Raventom (Reply 44):

 sarcastic 

Quoting Rammstein (Reply 45):
Actually, analysts predicted quite well this mess before the invasion, but the governments of the "coalition forces" didn't care at all.

Absolutely misleading statement Rammstein. Analysts predicted the situation could go either way. It was either go or no go. The invasion would work or fail, there'd be no middle ground.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 46):

Surprised you didn't post the Mission Accomplished picture.  sarcastic 

Nice to see you resort to photos and Bush bashing, that usually happens when your argument fails . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 am

RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting Joge (Reply 21):
And a bit off-topic, US troops in Iraq have nothing to do with defending US. It's just BS that everybody believes.

Not Everybody. I never bought into "the soldiers are in Iraq fighting for OUR freedom". I could buy it for Afghanistan due to the Bin Ladin connection, but not for Iraq where it has been proven had NO WMDs, no intention to attack us or the means too and had NO intention of taking away our freedom. So yes, I do not buy the B.S. of them being there to defend us either... just to defend Bush's oil. It is called Media and government propaganda

Quoting Klaus (Reply 43):
And occupation troops routinely pushing the native citicens off the road and pointing their guns at them for fear of their own lives has given me the thoroughly unscientific and subjective impression that the case has been irretrievably lost already.

Hmmm...

I guess it depends on how people view it. The people you are arguing with this about Klaus don't believe it is an occupation and that the U.S. has every right to be there...

However, I ask the Chickenhawks (in case you don't know what that is - it is a person - we have a lot of them here in the U.S. who act like cheerleaders for the war, yet are too afraid to go fight it) what would they do if a Foreign army occupied U.S. soil and there were this foreign army's troops on every street corner and their vehicles were driving down our roads and through our mall parking lots...

Of course they always answer - "I would kick their ass and git er dun" or "I would shoot at em". So I guess what I am getting at is this is a double standard. Sure its ok if we occuppy someone else's land and God Forbid the other country try to defend it.

Say for example China occuppied USA (I am not picking on the Chinese or have anything against them... just right now they are the only Nation that has enough people to occupy our land). Of course we would be trying to defend it by shooting them... but over in China their media would be calling the Americans that defend themselves "insurgents" and "terrorists". So it is a double standard.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 46):
do you believe such a person ? isn't he radiating confidence and wisdom ?

hahaha Deer in Headlights
 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:35 am

RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:29 am

Sorry for bringing this thread back on topic, but if the HumVees had louder horns then people would have more chance to move. Give them a horn more like fire engines in the US do and that would get people's attention PDQ.
Fortune favours the brave
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 34):
Once again US troops are fu*king around in Iraq. After the prisoner abuse, taunting kids and now ramming motorists i'm starting to believe the line of "stay in school or go to iraq". I know there are plenty doing good things but these "soldiers" definitely fall into the category of "unintelligent in Iraq".

 crazy  Wow. I've seen people make real asses of themselves on ANET, but you might have just won the top prize.

I hope it's because you're still in the "know-it-all teenager" phase... but damn kid!!!! -- Time for you to grow up and learn when you're making an ass out of yourself!!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 36):
Just like a couple other members here. Why the hell should they listen to you, even acknowledging your post would shut Thorben down, as he obviously has no grasp of military convoy/patrol operations. Even Klaus is hard pressed to make a decent argument - "occupation" indeed. Same thing happened in another thread. One of the bests posts in the thread ignored, because the Arm Chair Generals here all know better than they guy that takes incoming every day.

It really baffles me how people feel they're even remotely qualified to make definitive statements regarding these tactics.

Christ, even when I pointed out that a HWMMV stopped in traffic is far more vulnerable to RPGs... people STILL DIDN'T GET IT!! And you know what... lately we've had a growing threat of IR guided man-pads. So on last night's mission over Ramadi, we were flying very low, and very fast. And had I taken a video of that mission and shared it on ANET... there would be people complaining how low I was flying over the residential neighborhoods. Complaining how I was disturbing the peace.

Fuck the fact that I am doing what it takes to stay alive... I am interrupting someone's sleep! And we can't have THAT!  Yeah sure

This is one of those rare occasions where I rather everyone just STFU and leave these matters up to the people in the field.

You can criticize the war in general. You can criticize our leaders. And you even can criticize the overall strategy.

BUT DO NOT CRITICIZE THE INDIVIDUAL TACTICS ON THE GROUND. Because in all reality... you don't know jack shit. Sorry I'm extremely pissed off... but it's these kinds of armchair generals which send me over the edge. Unbelievably insulting.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 47):
And whatever "justification" is given, two questions remain :
> to what extent is it just showing off as big boys ?
> to what extent can people behaving so madly really control anything
> to what extent does it really reduce the danger of being hit by a well placed "depot" ? For instance if that is managed by wireless from a distance of 650 meters ?
--
Your ignorance of combat tactics is failing you MAF. You should stop while you're ahead.

-
I have never been in a "combat unit". My "ignorance" in this is off-topic. I however admit to a lack of "counting-ignorance" as it is THREE questions, hereby repeated :
> to what extent is it just showing off as big boys ?
> to what extent can people behaving so madly really control anything
> do you really believe that such behaviour eliminates the danger of well placed depots managed by wireless from a distance of 650 meters
-

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 47):
you resort to photos and Bush bashing, that usually happens when your argument fails . . .

I first of all rather have questions. The only argument but a VALID one is that Iraqis care about their lifes and their cars and the bills of their garage, and NOT at all about the "tactics" and "safety" of the soldiers of the occupation army
-
and second, Bush-bashing always is nice
-

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 50):
pointed out that a HWMMV stopped in traffic is far more vulnerable to RPGs... people STILL DIDN'T GET IT!!



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 50):
TACTICS ON THE GROUND

your TACTICAL arguments presumably are correct, BUT I primarily care about how the Iraqis in general and Iraqi motor-car-drivers in particular and most of those whose cars were damaged feel about it, and what they feel about those crazies ! you see, THEY do NOT care about YOUR "tactical" interests ! and for sure increasingly want to see your .... leaving .... the earlier the better. You US-Americans in Iraq have HAD your chance, you bungled it .
-

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 50):
I'm extremely pissed off.

and even more so are the Iraqis. And if you are "pissed off" why then did you sign to go there again ? Masochistic instincts ????
-
 
oli80
Posts: 647
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:05 am

hmmm... stuck in heavy traffic with a big target painted on the side of me? or piss a few locals off to save my own ass? I know which one I would choose.

99% of you here have no clue (me included), so how you can sit here and pass judgement.
 
NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 am

RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting Oli80 (Reply 52):
99% of you here have no clue (me included), so how you can sit here and pass judgement.

I agree....

But the point ME AVN FAN is trying to say is that the Iraqis do not want us (us being the U.S. and Britain mainly) there occupying their land.

As Americans or Brits (America's closest ally, although they seem to not like us as much anymore too)... we hear everything from a one sided slant. Yes it is terrible that American or other allied troops would die in a car bomb... and even from UH-60's point he wants to save his own ass while he is there... who doesn't???

But again we are looking at it one sided.

America and Britain will probably never be invaded and occupied, we can rest in that comfort and we don't think about what it is like when another country is wrongfully occupied. The closest Britain came to occupation was during WWII. What if Britain didn't win the Battle of Britain, and London was bombed beyond all recognition by the Nazis and Hitler's forces came in??? Do you think any British people would give a shit that Nazi troops had to hurry and move their vehicles out of the way to avoid being bombed by Lancasters, even if that took out a few British citizens cars?

And to Americans, yes we probably will never be invaded and occupied. The only country that probably could as I said earlier is China since they are the only real super power and have the people and money to do it (plus we owe them so much debt too). If this happens (of course we probably will have our internet cut off too like it pretty much is in Iraq since we aren't getting any Iraqi points of view on this), what are we going to think when those Chinese convoys smash into our SUVs at the Walmart parking lot as they say "we were trying to keep going to avoid a group of guys in pick up trucks with assault rifles were chasing us"? You know damn well that many of you will be in those trucks... I will be in those pick up trucks with a gun if someone is occupying my land. So do you think that the Iraqi citizens give a flying shit about U.S. soldier's safety? Hell no! They want our troops out now.
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:45 pm

RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 23):
As an Iraqi civilian I would be pissed to get rammed by an US car. Just imagine someone rams you on your way to work. How would you feel? Than imagine this happens regularly...

Solution?

Solution? Iraqis get out of the way. I'm sure that they would rather get a ding in their bumper than have their car 3 feet from a Humvee when it is blown up. Bumping the cars out of the way saves American AND Iraqi lives and property.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 34):
Once again US troops are fu*king around in Iraq. After the prisoner abuse, taunting kids and now ramming motorists i'm starting to believe the line of "stay in school or go to iraq". I know there are plenty doing good things but these "soldiers" definitely fall into the category of "unintelligent in Iraq".

You are an idiot. Next time you are driving (or in about 10 years when you are old enough to) and there is an emergency vehicle with lights and sirens behind you, don't move out of the way. Then see what happens.

Military vehicles in Iraq are just like firetrucks, police cars, and ambulances in the rest of the world-if they are coming at you, get out of the way. The Iraqis know that.

JAG, would you rather have a dent in your bumper or lose your arms and legs? Next time try and use that peanut you call a brain before you spout of any more ignorant idiot rants.

Quoting Joge (Reply 39):
Of course they can. But not with the cost of civilian victims. They're in Iraq to PROTECT the civilians, not to try run over them.

How many civilians did the Hummer in the video run over? I'm willing to bet the most significant damage caused was a ding in a bumper.

Once again, if you were Iraqi, would you rather get bumped at a 2 MPH speed difference, or be next to a humvee when it hits an IED or is hit by a RPG? Would you rather our soldiers just get killed so some Iraqi can feel good about the bumper on his car?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 43):
Have you ever been pushed in regular traffic at home in your own car? How did that feel? Even when it was not a military vehicle of a foreign force occupying your home country?

Once again, would you rather be tapped or blown up by an insurgent? Military vehicles in Iraq=Emergency Vehicles elsewhere. Get out of the way or suffer the consequences. No way in hell that my friends need to die because some European gets pissed off over an Iraqi's bumper when they don't have a f**king clue what is going on there in the first place.
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:45 pm

RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 53):
America and Britain will probably never be invaded and occupied, we can rest in that comfort and we don't think about what it is like when another country is wrongfully occupied. The closest Britain came to occupation was during WWII. What if Britain didn't win the Battle of Britain, and London was bombed beyond all recognition by the Nazis and Hitler's forces came in??? Do you think any British people would give a shit that Nazi troops had to hurry and move their vehicles out of the way to avoid being bombed by Lancasters, even if that took out a few British citizens cars?

First of all, the analogy is irrelevant. In order for your comparison to be valid the following would have to occur in the United States-

1.) George Bush would win every election with 100% of the vote
2.) All Democrats, Green Party, Moderate Republicans, etc. would be tortured and executed
3.) GWB would gas hundreds of thousands of his own people
4.) Any freedom that we as Americans hold dear would not exist
5.) GWB would conscript all our sons and launch invasions of Canada and Mexico which would leave millions dead

Now, if this was the state of my country, I wouldn't mind if the British SAS came in and hung GWB and the EU came in to install a government that would give me freedom from crazy dictators like Saddam was. I would welcome the foreign soldiers with open arms, which is what MOST of the Iraqis are doing now.

We aren't over in Iraq just destroying things. We are rebuilding, and chances are that if you aren't a terrorist you don't have a bullseye on your head (at least not from us, the terrorists are another story). We are opening schools, hospitals, handing out money.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 53):
The only country that probably could as I said earlier is China since they are the only real super power and have the people and money to do it

Sorry, China would not have a chance in a war against the US.
 
scottieprecord
Posts: 1208
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 5:38 am

RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:43 am

Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):
GTA anybody??

That's a sunday drive compared to how GTA looks on my screen...  Smile

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 46):
do you believe such a person ? isn't he radiating confidence and wisdom ? laughing laughing laughing

So I guess a more attractive, charismatic Hugo Chavez is more capable of bringing freedom and democracy to the world? Honestly, how stupid can you be to relate looks to ability? Einstein must've been a dumbass...

- Mike
 
Jalto27R
Posts: 841
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 8:49 am

RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 26):

Yeah sure Because that's always possible...

If you really pay attention to the entire video, you will see the soldiers can tell when the motorist can get the hell out of their way, or when they can't do jack $hit. When they hit a traffic jam, they went into the other side of the road, and didn't hit anyone.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 30):
And to be honest... it's kinda annoying listening to people bitch about this. It's funny - watching a 3minute video automatically makes some people feel they're expert enough on what happens here, to make such absurd statements.

We're talking about keeping people ALIVE. And it amazes me that some of you feel comfortable enough - sitting in your safe homes, totally removed from this war - to pass judgement on these soldiers.

More people are concerned with the bumpers on the vehicles, then they are with keeping soldiers alive. It's pretentious and unbelieve.

-UH60

Amen to that.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 34):
Once again US troops are fu*king around in Iraq. After the prisoner abuse, taunting kids and now ramming motorists i'm starting to believe the line of "stay in school or go to iraq". I know there are plenty doing good things but these "soldiers" definitely fall into the category of "unintelligent in Iraq".

You know what...this statement really pisses me off. As a firefighter, this video sure as hell reminds me of responded in trucks to calls. Some people pull over, and some people don't give a rats a$$. We've been driving past parking lots while people are still turning into them. They have no respect. Hell, I wish we had a bumper that could tap people out of our way. All we have is a Federal and an air horn.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 35):
You just walk in, claim for a damaged car (or maybe a dead child, did you see that kid having to jump for his life in the video?) and they write you out a chit and send you over to the cashier?

What the hell was a kid doing walking through city traffic in the first place?

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 37):
Do you move aside for Emergency vehicles when you're driving? Are they being arrogant for putting their sirens on and making cars move out of their way? No. Why? Because someones life is at risk, or they need to get somewhere ASAP. Same situation here. Do you really expect US troops to sit in traffic like they were driving a carpool?? No, that doesn't make sense. I don't think when Mrs. Smith takes Johnny and his pals to school she is getting shot at.

Exactly!

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 37):
on a side note "This guy just picking his nose." haha

That made me crack up too. hahaha.

Quoting Joge (Reply 39):
There's nothing to be won in Iraq. Not for the US troops.

You're just here to start trouble...it's pretty amusing..there's no point in arguing with you.

Quoting Joge (Reply 39):
Of course they can. But not with the cost of civilian victims. They're in Iraq to PROTECT the civilians, not to try run over them.

You act like they drive around TRYING to run them over. Maybe if people realized, you know..how many years into this war, that every so often there will be a convoy flying through their neighborhood trying to get from Point A to Point B, that they would stay clear of the road when they could?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 43):
And occupation troops routinely pushing the native citicens off the road and pointing their guns at them for fear of their own lives has given me the thoroughly unscientific and subjective impression that the case has been irretrievably lost already.

Just because you watched a three minute video of a convoy, NOT a patrol unit, trying to get from one place to the other without being killed means that you lose all hope in a war? Ha...God help anyone who ever has to live under your leadership.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 43):

When the situation is such that the US troops feel compelled to act this way on a normal day, it gives me the subjective impression that the Iraq adventure is already beyond the point of no return; That you might not be able to turn anything around any more by simply getting even more troops in there.

You don't know that, and assuming that from a 3 minute video is rather..er...elementary?

Mike
 
NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 am

RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting KSYR (Reply 55):
1.) George Bush would win every election with 100% of the vote
2.) All Democrats, Green Party, Moderate Republicans, etc. would be tortured and executed
3.) GWB would gas hundreds of thousands of his own people
4.) Any freedom that we as Americans hold dear would not exist
5.) GWB would conscript all our sons and launch invasions of Canada and Mexico which would leave millions dead

1. That is debateable
2. They are put on watch lists and are wiretapped instead
3. Instead they would get sent to Guantamino
4. One more "attack" on American soil, and you watch it won't exist. This country becomes a police state. Already the Patriot Act and Homeland Security are already doing their part to take away freedoms.
5. Not enough oil in Canada or Mexico, so that is why he chose to invade Iraq and Afghanistan... Syria and Iran maybe next?

Quoting KSYR (Reply 55):
Now, if this was the state of my country, I wouldn't mind if the British SAS came in and hung GWB and the EU came in to install a government that would give me freedom from crazy dictators like Saddam was. I would welcome the foreign soldiers with open arms, which is what MOST of the Iraqis are doing now.

You ever think that maybe not every place wants a Democracy set up, and that Democracy is not the perfect form of government? Yes it may work here and most Western nations, but does it work elsewhere?

I am not going to sit here and defend Saddam, but was he any crazier than any of the other leaders in that region? I have Chaldean friends - Christian Iraqis, that lived under Saddam and Chaldeans never suffered under him because they were Christian. Try going to Saudi Arabia or Iran as a Christian and see what happens. Women were allowed to work in Iraq, and did not have to wear the veil like in most other countries. So do you think it is possibly some propaganda that our media put forth to make him into a bigger nut job than he was? Saddam was secular, is that so bad in the Middle East? People in Germany actually believed that Poland was commiting terrorist attacks on German soil right before WWII happened too. I am also not too sure of the Iraqis welcoming U.S. soldiers with open arms. Maybe the Shiites are glad that the U.S. got rid of Saddam so they can set up a Theocratic Government and put in some hard line Ayatollah like they did in Iran. The Shiites hate the Sunnis, and Saddam was a Sunni so of course they were glad that the U.S. was there to overthrow him. They are just using America for that. How much do they still want the U.S. there now? U.S. has worn out its welcome.

Quoting KSYR (Reply 55):
We aren't over in Iraq just destroying things. We are rebuilding, and chances are that if you aren't a terrorist you don't have a bullseye on your head (at least not from us, the terrorists are another story). We are opening schools, hospitals, handing out money.

Why do you keep saying "We"? Are you a soldier over there? I saw that you are in the 16-20 age bracket, but did not see anything in your profile to lead me to believe that you are fighting over there.

Rebuilding... yet a nice big $1 billion U.S. Embassy resort. Gee who is that benefitting? All of the other rebuilding is beneffiting a "little" company called Haliburton formerly run by one Richard Cheney, that didn't even have to bid to just automatically get a contract there.

Quoting KSYR (Reply 55):
Sorry, China would not have a chance in a war against the US.

What makes you think that? The U.S. couldn't even defeat tiny Vietnam!! The U.S. is not making any progress in Iraq, whose army was tattered after the first Gulf War. How do you think that the U.S. would have an easy time against a country that could build a 1 billion strong army, a nation with nukes and capabilities to manufacture products quicker than the U.S., as well as the finances to do it?
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 44):
Just because you watched a three minute video of a convoy, NOT a patrol unit, trying to get from one place to the other without being killed means that you lose all hope in a war?

No. It's just the final straw on top of three years of rather close observation through all available media.

It sets a tone which should simply not be there at this point in an occupation which is supposed to come to a constructive conclusion.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 37):
BUT DO NOT CRITICIZE THE INDIVIDUAL TACTICS ON THE GROUND. Because in all reality... you don't know jack shit. Sorry I'm extremely pissed off... but it's these kinds of armchair generals which send me over the edge.

Don't blame you one bit.

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 44):
Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 37):
on a side note "This guy just picking his nose." haha

That made me crack up too. hahaha

Yup, the only thing that was missing was the bag lady with the shopping cart full of cans.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 40):
So do you think that the Iraqi citizens give a flying shit about U.S. soldier's safety?

For many no, which is why those driving procedures are employeed.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
srbmod
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RE: Humvees Driving Crazy In Baghdad!

Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:56 am

Since this thread has devolved from the original topic and is becoming quite hard to clean up, it is being locked.

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