AerospaceFan
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Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:51 pm

A rise in the energy output of the Sun is the main cause of global warming, according to a scientist at the Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in St. Petersburg, Russia. A recent news report claims that the head of the observatory, Dr. Habibullo Abdussamatov, has concluded that parallel climatological developments on both the Earth and Mars are caused by an increase in solar irradiation. Dr. Abdussamatov discounted the view that global warming on Earth was the result of so-called "greenhouse gases".

(Excerpt)

Quote:
"Mars has global warming, but without a greenhouse and without the participation of Martians," he told me. "These parallel global warmings -- observed simultaneously on Mars and on Earth -- can only be a straightline consequence of the effect of the one same factor: a long-time change in solar irradiance."

The sun's increased irradiance over the last century, not C02 emissions, is responsible for the global warming we're seeing, says the celebrated scientist, and this solar irradiance also explains the great volume of C02 emissions.

If true, this alternative explanation could show interest in Kyoto to be nothing more than a tempest in a teapot, and global warming to be an inevitable result of a Solar System-wide cause potentially immune to human reversal.

The jury is clearly out on what it is that causes global warming.

Please see:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/n...bbe10d-3891-41eb-9ee1-a59b71743bec

[Edited once for grammar.]

[Edited 2007-01-29 12:54:15]
What's fair is fair.
 
aloges
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
The jury is clearly out on what it is that causes global warming.

If you believe studies funded by the energy industry, that is. Besides, an astronomer is by all means less of an authority on global warming than a climatologist.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:17 pm

Dude why don't you just stick to one thread at a time?? Just sayin.....

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
Banco
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
If you believe studies funded by the energy industry, that is. Besides, an astronomer is by all means less of an authority on global warming than a climatologist.

Reports are always funded by someone. A lot of them going the other way are funded by those with an interest in promoting their view as well. The question is whether it is good science or not, and peer review will see to that.

But you should be clear about one thing: Man-made global warming is a theory that is currently popular, but it is by no means universal, nor is it necessarily right. The truth of the matter is that the models propounded by climatologists are little more than guesswork, because a chaotic system cannot be accurately forecast. For one thing, isn't it curious that all the models put forward show everyone's weather everywhere getting worse? That's rather unlikely. Nevertheless, the idea that we shouldn't pump millions of tons of pollution into the atmosphere is a pretty reasonable one, irrespective of the truth of climate change, but a healthy scepticism towards the concept is no bad thing.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:21 pm

Comparing some theoretical data "paralleling Earth with Mars" when there is mountain of data which tells another story is hearsay....but nonetheless, important to look at..
"Up the Irons!"
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:22 pm

Ill go ahead and post this again:

Ive said it before, in fact its getting boring saying this so often, man-made global warming is a dream.

In the 70s it was global cooling because all these emissions arent letting in enough heat, now its global warming because all these emissions are keeping all the heat in. So which is it?

Quoting Article by National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration:

Global surface temperatures have increased about 0.6°C (plus or minus 0.2°C) since the late-19th century, and about 0.4°F (0.2 to 0.3°C) over the past 25 years (the period with the most credible data). The warming has not been globally uniform. Some areas (including parts of the southeastern U.S.) have, in fact, cooled over the last century."

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

All this data, which only shows a razor-thin rise in global temperatures, can bring up the question: How accurate is our data for temperatures?

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/anomalies/anomalies.html

From Article:

"Absolute estimates of global mean surface temperature are difficult to compile for a number of reasons."

Where has your argument for global temperatures are rising gone?? Nowhere, vanished. Now, how about this folly about CO2 emissions raise the greenhouse gases enough to raise the temperature of the entire world enough to kill us, as is a obvious problen thus


Did you know, for instance, that CO2 is classified as a 'trace gas', making up less than 1% of the atmosphere, that in fact more than 1/2 of ALL anthropogenic CO2 emissions are absorbed naturally (althoug not much is known about where it goes - most theories suggest it is absorbed into the oceans and terrestrial biospheres), and that less than 1/2% that is not absorbed naturally is trumped, and I do mean trumped, by natural emmisions of CO2.

Most of the CO2 I mentioned, that is absorbed by natural processes, isnt taken into account in future predictions.

From Article:

"Current models used to project future atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations assume that the carbon cycle will continue to operate in the same way it has operated in the recent past. These models do not take into account the limitations of the carbon sink on land, or how biological, chemical and physical processes in the ocean and land might change either due to natural variability or external forcing. "

http://www.climate.noaa.gov/index.js...o_pa/cpo_pa_index.jsp&pa=gcc&sub=1


Another Article:

" They point to actual measurements taken from satellite and weather balloons and reliable surface observations that show little or no warming has taken place in the last 22 years; they show that the character of the observed warming is more indicative of urbanization than the effect of man's production of greenhouse gases; they present evidence that most of the observed warming in the last century can be linked to changes in solar luminosity and sunspot activity; and they show how the effects of even small changes on the sun can be magnified in our atmosphere through the effect these changes have on cloud cover."

http://www.intellicast.com/DrDewpoint/Library/1156/


So the 'drastic' rise in global temperatures is because of sun-spot and solar-flare activity, not because of greenhouse gases?


From Article:

"If there is indeed a solar cycle to global temperature connection, it would help explain the observed changes in recent decades as well as the changes observed over the centuries. The quiet sun period of the Maunder Minimum in the 1600s coincided with the global phenomenon known as the Little Ice Age, during which the Thames River froze in England and glaciers advanced.

There is evidence that solar activity (based on reports of very high aurora activity) was very high in the 11th and 12th century. Global warming then enabled the Vikings to inhabit Greenland. They eventually abandoned Greenland when the solar activity diminished and temperatures returned to frigid levels. "

From the Same Article:

"Research at the Danish Meteorological Institute found that when the sun is quiet, more cloudiness is observed in middle latitudes than when the sun is active. They believe this may be due to cosmic rays, which reach the atmosphere in much greater numbers during the quiet sun years because the earth’s protective shield is weaker. This cloudiness increase can serve to reflect more solar energy back to space and help to lower temperatures. Their research models suggest that the combined effects can explain net heating and cooling differences more like a few percent"

http://www.intellicast.com/DrDewpoint/Library/1045/

That explains it, explains it all. If you have any questions, dont hesitate to ask. Dont just hop on the GW bandwagon because its popular now, know the facts.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:27 pm

I'm curious about the implication that government-funded studies, rather than those funded by private sources, are necessarily the more accurate. Wouldn't government sources generally promote the role of government in whatever it is that may need regulation?

Has there ever been a modern government health department or ministry that has discounted the need for a government role -- or possibly an increased government role -- in public health?

The point I'm trying to make is that if one wishes to impute ill motives based on funding source, then one shouldn't exempt any source from such imputation.

Even academic sources may be biased, and there is no reason to believe, on the face of it, that global warming advocates are particularly less biased than any other. Their biases may not be monetary, but are they completely absent?

In the case at hand, I wonder who it is that funds the Palkovo observatory?
What's fair is fair.
 
Klaus
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:35 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 3):
A lot of them going the other way are funded by those with an interest in promoting their view as well.

Ummm... No, actually, they aren't.

There is a massively funded campaign to support the dwindling number of deniers, but there simply isn't any large-scale industry or other interest group which could or would fund the mainstream of climatology with a plausible pressure for bias.

You're making an assumption of equality, but it simply doesn't exist.

The vast majority of climatologists work for governments or generally independent universities, and the evidence basis is a bit too substantial by now to come to the kinds of conclusions the oil industry would like.

In the absence of a substantiable claim they've settled for some medium- to low-level obfuscation so flimsy that only laymen and some journalists can still fall for it, but it can't hold up to actual scrutiny.

Quoting Banco (Reply 3):
The truth of the matter is that the models propounded by climatologists are little more than guesswork, because a chaotic system cannot be accurately forecast.

Wrong.

Weather is short-term chaotic but is still increasingly understood in its mechanisms.

Climate is a long-term mechanism which is also understood to an increasing extent, especially with regard to its interactions with other systems. And its interaction with CO2 is undeniable - even if there remain many details yet to be explored.

Quoting Banco (Reply 3):
For one thing, isn't it curious that all the models put forward show everyone's weather everywhere getting worse?

You're misinformed. They don't.

Every climatologist I've ever heard or read about makes it a point that the weather in different places will react differently to the ongoing change.

One repeated statement, however, is that the overall increased amount of energy in the atmosphere will in fact probably lead to a rise in the average number of severe weather phenomena.

Quoting Banco (Reply 3):
Nevertheless, the idea that we shouldn't pump millions of tons of pollution into the atmosphere is a pretty reasonable one, irrespective of the truth of climate change, but a healthy scepticism towards the concept is no bad thing.

We're in full agreement about those points!
 
SkyGourmet
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Exp

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:36 pm

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 5):
In the 70s it was global cooling because all these emissions arent letting in enough heat, now its global warming because all these emissions are keeping all the heat in.

So you're comparing aerosols to gases? In the 70s air pollution from aerosols lead to "global cooling". Now that filters have been installed on the chimneys of the factories, global warming caused by the greenhouse gases outweighs the effects of global cooling. It's actually not that hard to understand.
Meine dispatcher says there's something wrong mit deine Kabel?
 
Klaus
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:40 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 6):
Wouldn't government sources generally promote the role of government in whatever it is that may need regulation?

One might assume that if there was actually pressure applied to that end.

But government-funded research is also generally subject to an increased level of oversight and researchers can gain publicity quickly when pressure by the political government is attempted for a specific bias.

Such as the almost immediate publication of the Bush administration's attempts to suppress the findings made by their own scientists in the EPA and NOAA by threatening them to be fired.
 
aloges
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:43 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 3):
A lot of them going the other way are funded by those with an interest in promoting their view as well.

But who in the environmentalists' "corner" has got the financial means of the oil and gas industry? No one, most research on global warming is government-funded.

Quoting Banco (Reply 3):
The truth of the matter is that the models propounded by climatologists are little more than guesswork, because a chaotic system cannot be accurately forecast.

You needn't calculate everything in science, empirical evidence is worth just as much. CO2 has been emitted in growing quantities ever since the industrial revolution, and today we have glaciers and the polar ice caps melting faster than ever.

Quoting Banco (Reply 3):
For one thing, isn't it curious that all the models put forward show everyone's weather everywhere getting worse? That's rather unlikely.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not keen on finding out. However, if you look at desertification in, predominantly, Africa, you'll find that it's not only their weather that gets worse but their climate.

Quoting Banco (Reply 3):
a healthy scepticism towards the concept is no bad thing.

Healthy scepticism is one thing, outright denial of the entire theory is another. There are so many ways we can reduce CO2 output without reducing our quality of life, yet sometimes people even take pride in their individual wastefulness or mock anyone suggesting that they're acting irresponsibly.

It is however a good thing that even a US President with textbook connections to the oil industry is calling for reduction of emissions.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Banco
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
There is a massively funded campaign to support the dwindling number of deniers, but there simply isn't any large-scale industry or other interest group which could or would fund the mainstream of climatology with a plausible pressure for bias.

That's not the case at all. It needn't be industry that has a political perspective, NGOs do as well. To believe that such entities are pure and unbiased in their approach is simply naiive. As has been put a number of times, the issue with state funding is that No Problem = No Funding.

Interetingly, the most heavily criticised area of such reports, by the likes of the UN, is the ignoring of the mediaeval warm period in the middle ages, when temperatures were in fact rather warmer than today. Indeed a Chinese naval squadron sailed right around the Arctic without finding ice anywhere. Yet when the UN put forward their models on climate change in 2001, not only was the wamr period missing, but so was the subsequent cooling in the centuries that followed. This J Curve showing a recent spike in temperature shows as being flat throughout this period when it was anything but.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Wrong.

Weather is short-term chaotic but is still increasingly understood in its mechanisms.

Climate is a long-term mechanism which is also understood to an increasing extent, especially with regard to its interactions with other systems. And its interaction with CO2 is undeniable - even if there remain many details yet to be explored.

Your absolute certainty on this leads me to disregard many of your points. You see, certainty is entirely absent in such matters. To say that weather is short-term chaotic but increasingly understood is completely wrong. The whole point about a chaotic system is that it can never be fully understood. Equally, with climate, there are simply too many variables to have anything approaching certainty. Now, you may agree with the conclusions, and you may be right, but such strong advocacy is rather reminiscent of religious belief than anything else.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
You're misinformed. They don't.

Every climatologist I've ever heard or read about makes it a point that the weather in different places will react differently to the ongoing change.

One repeated statement, however, is that the overall increased amount of energy in the atmosphere will in fact probably lead to a rise in the average number of severe weather phenomena.

I could well be. You may well have read more on the subject than I have. Yet all I can see is that in everything I have seen, I have never yet come across a report saying, for example, that as a result of global warming, the Sahara is likely to become on oasis of plenty in the future. The general tone is apocalypse.

I'm not a climate sceptic in the sense in which you refer, shouting from the rooftops that it's all lies, but I do have some reservations about the reductive manner of the debate, the "We're right, you're wrong, we're all going to die" attitude towards the debate.

Anyone that expresses reservations about the perceived wisdom, whether scientific or otherwise, is shouted down as a heretic. That's not how science is supposed to work. A prevailing theory should be challenged, yet when anyone tries to do so they are dismissed as a lunatic. This subject is simply too complex for such levels of certainty.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
saintsman
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:20 pm

Whatever the real truth, global warming is bound to be promoted by politicians because its an easy way to raise tax.
 
aloges
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting Saintsman (Reply 12):
global warming is bound to be promoted by politicians because its an easy way to raise tax.

Fuel tax? Since when have they ever needed an excuse for that?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
777236ER
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Exp

Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 11):
To say that weather is short-term chaotic but increasingly understood is completely wrong. The whole point about a chaotic system is that it can never be fully understood. Equally, with climate, there are simply too many variables to have anything approaching certainty. Now, you may agree with the conclusions, and you may be right, but such strong advocacy is rather reminiscent of religious belief than anything else.

Whilst you're right about the ridiculously strong advocacy that some portions of the scientific community have towards global warming, short-term weather is a more complicated set of partial differential equations than long-term climate. For example, 70% of the solutions to the PDEs for this Wednesday might lead to rain, resulting in the '70% chance of rain' in weather forcasts. In the long term, however, the climate is much more susceptible to trends. For example, a step chance in ocean ice will have little impact on the weather this week, but generally the trend can be seen that more light and heat is reflected by more ice, leading to a cooling and more ice forming. As a system, long-term climate is a lot easier to predict than short-term weather.

Of course, the problem now is that the whole debate has taken an ugly political term. Anyone who provides evidence of man-made global warming is instantly dismissed by the right wing as a tree-hugging liberal. Conversely any scientist who suggests global warming isn't man-made are treated as scientific outcasts and seen as a member of the right-wing establishment.

It's a dangerous position to be in with something so serious. I think the best solution is the pragmatic one - reducing carbon emissions does no harm and can only do good. From an economic point of view, there's great scope for profit from new, green technologies, and a reduction in carbom emissions comes directly from using less energy - which has a direct impact on profit margins.

[Edited 2007-01-29 14:34:00]
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Banco
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 14):

That's pretty much where I'm at myself - that the science on either side might be questionable, but taking steps to reduce carbon emissions - and pollution generally, is simply good sense.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 14):
For example, a step chance in ocean ice will have little impact on the weather this week, but generally the trend can be seen that more light and heat is reflected by more ice, leading to a cooling and more ice forming. As a system, long-term climate is a lot easier to predict than short-term weather.

Tha's true. But what scientists, no matter how much some might protest, do not know is what are the causes of such change - hence the article at the start of the thread. They can see things happening, but why that might be is open to much debate.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
halls120
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 3):
But you should be clear about one thing: Man-made global warming is a theory that is currently popular, but it is by no means universal, nor is it necessarily right. The truth of the matter is that the models propounded by climatologists are little more than guesswork, because a chaotic system cannot be accurately forecast. For one thing, isn't it curious that all the models put forward show everyone's weather everywhere getting worse? That's rather unlikely. Nevertheless, the idea that we shouldn't pump millions of tons of pollution into the atmosphere is a pretty reasonable one, irrespective of the truth of climate change, but a healthy scepticism towards the concept is no bad thing.

Should we be serious about climate change? Of Course. But running head first into a single solution isn't necessarily the right idea.

Quote:
The Kyoto Protocol seeks to get the world to agree to burn less fossil fuel and emit less carbon dioxide, and much of that involves driving less. But even disregarding the treaty's economic costs, Kyoto's environmental impact would be slight. Tom M.L. Wigley, chief scientist at the U.S. Center for Atmospheric Research, calculates that even if every nation met its obligation to reduce greenhouse gas, the Earth would be only .07 degrees centigrade cooler by 2050.

Wigley favors a much more stringent plan than Kyoto, but such restrictions would severely restrict economic growth, particularly in the developing world. Nations such as China and India were excluded from the Kyoto Protocol; yet if we're serious about reversing global warming by driving less, the developing world will have to be included.

In other words, Kyoto is not only NOT a magic bullet for addressing global warming, it is near irrelevant.

The WashPost article also notes the following:

Quote:
The United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change notes that during the 20th century the Earth's temperature rose by 0.6 degrees centigrade and -- depending on which of the many climate models turn out to be closest to reality -- it expects the temperature to rise 1.4 to 5.8 degrees by 2100.

What does the IPCC think the effects of global warming may be? Flooding may increase. Infectious diseases may spread. Heat-related illness and death may increase. Yet as the IPCC notes repeatedly, the severity of such outcomes is enormously uncertain.
t
Two ways of dealing with global warming emerge. A more stringent version of Kyoto could be crafted to chase the unprecedented goal of trying to cool the atmosphere of the entire planet. Yet if such efforts resulted in lower economic growth, low-income populations in the United States and developing countries would be less able to protect themselves from the ill effects of extreme heat or other kinds of severe weather.

Alternatively, the focus could be on preventing the negative effects -- the disease and death -- that global warming might bring. Each year malaria kills 1 million to 3 million people, and one-third of the world's population is infected with water- or soil-borne parasitic diseases. It may well be that dealing with global warming by building resilience against its possible effects is more productive -- and more realistic -- than trying to solve the problem by driving our automobiles less.

Interesting observations, I think.

Quoting Banco (Reply 11):
Interetingly, the most heavily criticised area of such reports, by the likes of the UN, is the ignoring of the mediaeval warm period in the middle ages, when temperatures were in fact rather warmer than today. Indeed a Chinese naval squadron sailed right around the Arctic without finding ice anywhere. Yet when the UN put forward their models on climate change in 2001, not only was the wamr period missing, but so was the subsequent cooling in the centuries that followed. This J Curve showing a recent spike in temperature shows as being flat throughout this period when it was anything but.

Selective use of past data is one of the main reasons I am often skeptical of the gloom and doom forecasts we often hear.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:09 am

Scientist will use every excuse to get funding, and today Global Warming is nothing more than a fad.

Lets use simple logic shall we:

***

Earth: 5 billion years old

Humans: 10,000 years

Scientifically monitoring the weather: 100-150 years

***

Who is to say this is not the natural life cycle of the earth? Oh, by the way, why is global warming occurring on Mars? We don't live there yet, so how is it our fault climate changes are occurring?

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mars_ice-age_031208.html

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=192

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/newsroom/20050920a.html
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:09 am

I have always said that the causes of global warming are still quite unclear, and never has it been clearer to me that this is so. Banco, Speedbird, and others have shown precisely why it is premature to say that humankind is responsible for global warming, and might I reiterate that no one has disproved the common sense belief that governments, NGO's, and others advocating public action might have their own agendas to promote. The day that such advocates turn the magnifying glass on their own agendas is the day that their advocacy might be taken more seriously given the lack of proof of correlation between industrial output and climatological change.
What's fair is fair.
 
Banco
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 18):
Banco, Speedbird, and others have shown precisely why it is premature to say that humankind is responsible for global warming, and might I reiterate that no one has disproved the common sense belief that governments, NGO's, and others advocating public action might have their own agendas to promote. The day that such advocates turn the magnifying glass on their own agendas is the day that their advocacy might be taken more seriously given the lack of proof of correlation between industrial output and climatological change.

Careful here. You shouldn't take my scepticism for advocacy of no action. Pumping vast amounts of pollution, be they greenhouse gases or otherwise, into the atmosphere would tend to fall into the Bad Thing category. It remains entirely possible that the worst case scenarios being painted are every bit as accurate as the more extreme supporters would claim. It would seem to me to be remarkably foolish to wait until there was absolute proof before doing anything, because at that point it will be far too late.

We do have the technology to change our behaviour, and to take the whole matter out of the equation. Not acting at all would be rather irresponsible - merely saying that since no-one has proved it, we don't need to take it seriously prior to the point we're all heading up to Norway for a sunbathing break.

I do dislike the more extreme attitudes, for example those saying that all coal, gas and oil fired power stations should be shut, but at the same time opposing nuclear power - a completely unrealistic viewpoint - but nor do I subscribe to the opposite extreme. I don't want to conduct a mass experiment with the only place we have to live, and I don't really understand those that do.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
an astronomer is by all means less of an authority on global warming than a climatologist

Perhaps. However, the sun is very large - 1.3 million times the mass of the earth and almost infinitely hotter than the entire heat signature of every fire man has ever lit in the last million years. Don't you think subtle changes in its activity it might have some effect on our climate?

Or do you beleive that the global warming crowd has accurate data on the sun's output for the last twenty thousand years?

The oil companies have a selfish agenda on this issue.
So do the global warming voices. We just have not been allowed to see theirs yet. The people sounding the global warming alarm are exactly as greedy and selfish and power-mad as the oil companies. Most of us understand that we will not get to glimpse what they want out of this until their bill is presented.

Or do I misjudge human nature?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:41 am

Quoting SkyGourmet (Reply 8):
So you're comparing aerosols to gases? In the 70s air pollution from aerosols lead to "global cooling". Now that filters have been installed on the chimneys of the factories, global warming caused by the greenhouse gases outweighs the effects of global cooling. It's actually not that hard to understand.

What, do you have any knowledge of this at all? First, temp. records show there wasnt any cooling in the 70s. Second, aerosols had no effect on temp., they destroyed ozone, which is for reflecting some solar radiation. Third, 'filters' on factory chimney doesnt reduce aerosols because aerosols dont come from production anymore, they ave been banned. At least the harmful ones have.

Right now, the big green issues, IMO, are protecting our reserves, but doing it smartly. Second, reduce pollution. Cars DO cause pollution, and that is why Im pushing for alternative energy sources. Also, ciggarette butts, etc, its all just nasty. Needs to be cleaned up and reduced, if not stopped. Unfortunatly, itll be hard, if not near impossible to enforce. I am an avid outdoorsman, so I wanna keep the environment clean.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
GuitrThree
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:01 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
There is a massively funded campaign to support the dwindling number of deniers,

Yea... right.. "dwindling numbers" of deniers? How about 17,000+ scientist deniers.. I'd post all 17,000 but I think the A.net bandwidth monitors might get a little ticked...

So go here.. they even break them down by state if you'd like to call them up to chat.

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm

Wonder how many of these 17,000+ Al Gore failed to talk to??

Oh, and as so far as who funded this project:

"The costs of this petition project have been paid entirely by private donations. No industrial funding or money from sources within the coal, oil, natural gas or related industries has been utilized. The petition's organizers, who include some faculty members and staff of the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, do not otherwise receive funds from such sources. The Institute itself has no such funding. Also, no funds of tax-exempt organizations have been used for this project."

[Edited 2007-01-30 02:02:21]
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jaysit
Posts: 10186
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:05 am

A new study conducted by Professor Borat from the Kazakhstan School of Advanced Thermodynamics concluded that global warming is caused by blowhards denying that global warming is caused by greenhouse gases.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Exp

Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 22):
So go here.. they even break them down by state if you'd like to call them up to chat.

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm

Wonder how many of these 17,000+ Al Gore failed to talk to??

The Petition Project was yet another great piece of deception on behalf of the skeptics. Many, if not all of the 17,000+ scientists who signed it were under the false impression that the study send along with the petition had been peer-reviewed (which it was not) and had previously been published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, a scientific (and highly respected) journal of the latter (which it wasn't; heck, no scientific journal whatsoever had published it).

The study itself was written by Dr. Arthur B. Robinson, a biochemist, together with his then 22-year old son Zachary along with astrophysicists Sallie L. Baliunas and Willie Soon. Both Baliunas and Soon are linked to multiple think-tanks funded by Exxon.

Then there's all the rather unscientific issues of how people were allowed to sign the petition with no control whatsoever of the scientific background of those who allegedly signed it. With such monumental lack of control, it is no surprise that Mr Alan Caruba, PR man for the pesticide industry, is listed as a petioner, to name just one. Mr Caruba has no scientific background whatsoever.


Sources:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php..._Institute_of_Science_and_Medicine
http://www.sciam.com/page.cfm?sectio...004F43C-DC1A-1C6E-84A9809EC588EF21
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Al_Caruba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Petition
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Matt D
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:16 am

If the oil industry and some of the GOP had their way, this is the world we'd be living in:



If the Euro-esque Socialist wannabes and some of the Democrats had their way, THIS is the world we'd be living in:




Frankly neither of these extremes are all that palatable. As mentioned above, most of these "studies" seem to boil down to personal preferences, bias, and ulterior motives.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Thread starter):
A rise in the energy output of the Sun is the main cause of global warming, according to a scientist at the Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in St. Petersburg, Russia.

If unanimous agreement is required for any question, then the question will never be answered. Most people are satisified when 4 out of 5 doctors agree. Those who are inconvenienced by the truth will cling to that 1 doctor who does not agree, and that doctor will prosper at your expense.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 5):
Where has your argument for global temperatures are rising gone?? Nowhere, vanished.

No, it hasn't. You imply that small measurements can't be trusted, yet we live in a world where measurements of much greater precision are commonplace. Consider the scale of the circuitry on the microprocessor that is making it possible for you to read this post...incredibly tiny, yet very reliable. Saying that we cannot trust temperature measurements because they are fractions of °C is just plain silly, especially when the evidence of the temperature rise is observable without a thermometer.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 5):
Did you know, for instance, that CO2 is classified as a 'trace gas', making up less than 1% of the atmosphere,

Another specious argument. Atmospheric CO2 is approaching 400ppm. You suggest that is just too tiny to worry about, but 400ppm of CO is more than enough to kill a person. Small amounts can have profound effects.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 5):
That explains it, explains it all.

I see from your profile that you are quite young. You will learn that it is never wise to think, much less declare, that anything "explains it all." You stated your position well, but you are much less convincing than you may think.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 10):
But who in the environmentalists' "corner" has got the financial means of the oil and gas industry? No one, most research on global warming is government-funded.

I have many friends in oil & gas, and quite a few are fully aware of their role in global warming.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 16):
In other words, Kyoto is not only NOT a magic bullet for addressing global warming, it is near irrelevant.

 checkmark Kyoto may have been well-intentioned, but it has become an illusion for some to hide behind and a brickbat to beat others with. It's long on politics and void of real solution.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
SkyGourmet
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 21):
First, temp. records show there wasnt any cooling in the 70s



Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 5):
In the 70s it was global cooling

Huh? So why did you state that?
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Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:48 am

Actually, I think we've found the real cause of global warmaing: all the hot air coming from AerospaceFan on a consistent basis, which emminates from his constant threads on this forum.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 26):
Another specious argument. Atmospheric CO2 is approaching 400ppm. You suggest that is just too tiny to worry about, but 400ppm of CO is more than enough to kill a person. Small amounts can have profound effects.

Talk about a specious argument. CO2 and CO are completely different.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 26):
No, it hasn't. You imply that small measurements can't be trusted, yet we live in a world where measurements of much greater precision are commonplace. Consider the scale of the circuitry on the microprocessor that is making it possible for you to read this post...incredibly tiny, yet very reliable. Saying that we cannot trust temperature measurements because they are fractions of �C is just plain silly, especially when the evidence of the temperature rise is observable without a thermometer.

Another specious argument. It is not the smallness of the measurement that is being questioned, it is the accuracy of the measurements and the significant digits to which the data's accuracy can be taken to. Your microprocessor analogy is not germaine in the least.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 26):
see from your profile that you are quite young. You will learn that it is never wise to think, much less declare, that anything "explains it all." You stated your position well, but you are much less convincing than you may think.

As are you.
 
Joni
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 17):

Who is to say this is not the natural life cycle of the earth?

The climatologists say that. Incidentally the 2007 IPCC report is going to be made public this Friday.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines07/0119-07.htm

Landmark UN Study Backs Climate Theory

2,000 scientists all but end the debate: Human activity causes global warming



The summary states that the warming effect of greenhouse gases increased by 20 per cent during the past decade – "the largest change observed or inferred for any decade in at least the last 200 years."

Global warming would be even greater had it not been slowed by other forms of pollution that stopped some of the sun's energy from reaching the Earth.

Rebutting one of the main arguments of climate change skeptics, it says observations of temperature increases and shrinking ice cover, "support the conclusion that it is extremely unlikely that global climate change of the past 50 years" was caused by solar flares or other natural events.


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1995348,00.html

'The really chilling thing about the IPCC report is that it is the work of several thousand climate experts who have widely differing views about how greenhouse gases will have their effect. Some think they will have a major impact, others a lesser role. Each paragraph of this report was therefore argued over and scrutinised intensely. Only points that were considered indisputable survived this process. This is a very conservative document - that's what makes it so scary,' said one senior UK climate expert.

Past assessments by the IPCC have suggested such scenarios are 'likely' to occur this century. Its latest report, based on sophisticated computer models and more detailed observations of snow cover loss, sea level rises and the spread of deserts, is far more robust and confident. Now the panel writes of changes as 'extremely likely' and 'almost certain'.

And in a specific rebuff to sceptics who still argue natural variation in the Sun's output is the real cause of climate change, the panel says mankind's industrial emissions have had five times more effect on the climate than any fluctuations in solar radiation. We are the masters of our own destruction, in short.


Here are a few links relating to how ExxonMobil has been funding disinformation to promote the concept that the "jury is still out on climate change":

http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/downloaddoc.asp?id=1630
http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_rel...onMobil-GlobalWarming-tobacco.html
http://environment.guardian.co.uk/cl...atechange/story/0,,1876538,00.html

Here is an unprecedented joint statement on the national science academies of the G8 nations and China, Brazil and India:

The national science academies of the G8 nations and Brazil, China and India, three of the largest emitters of greenhouse gases in the developing world, have signed a statement on the global response to climate change.

The statement stresses that the scientific understanding of climate change is now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action


http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/displaypagedoc.asp?id=20742
 
Joni
Posts: 2613
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Exp

Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:38 am

Here's another relevant link:

U.S. climate scientists allege White House pressure

http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C1-topNews-1

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. scientists felt pressured to tailor their writings on global warming to fit the Bush administration's skepticism, in some cases at the behest of an ex-oil industry lobbyist, a congressional committee heard on Tuesday.

"Our investigations found high-quality science struggling to get out," Francesca Grifo of the watchdog group Union of Concerned Scientists told members of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.

A survey by the group found that 150 climate scientists personally experienced political interference in the past five years, for a total of at least 435 incidents.


Here's a CNN article on the same:

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS.../30/congress.climate.ap/index.html

[Edited 2007-01-30 21:43:30]
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:04 am

Double Post, sorry.

Cheers,
Kyle

[Edited 2007-01-30 22:12:15]
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speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 26):
No, it hasn't. You imply that small measurements can't be trusted, yet we live in a world where measurements of much greater precision are commonplace.

Yes, we do. Those measurements are usually teken in laboratories, or by exact satellites. Temperature on a Global Level is very different. As indicated by the article.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 26):
Another specious argument. Atmospheric CO2 is approaching 400ppm. You suggest that is just too tiny to worry about, but 400ppm of CO is more than enough to kill a person. Small amounts can have profound effects.

Yet were not all dead? Prior to the Industtrial Revolution, CO2 was around 280 ppm, now it is around 378-380, yet if what I take what you say as true, then that 20 ppm is very significant, and should not have been rounded.

Quoting SkyGourmet (Reply 27):
So why did you state that?

My first statement was dripping with sarcasm. Pardon me though, since English probably isnt your first or main language, I should have indicated that.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 26):
You will learn that it is never wise to think, much less declare, that anything "explains it all."

A wise piece of advice that I will be sure to take to heart, thank you.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
WSOY
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:18 am

PARIS, Jan. 29 — Scientists from across the world gathered Monday to hammer out the final details of an authoritative report on climate change that is expected to project centuries of rising temperatures and sea levels unless there are curbs in emissions of carbon dioxide and other gases that trap heat in the atmosphere.

Scientists involved in writing or reviewing the report say it is nearly certain to conclude that there is at least a 90 percent chance that human-caused emissions are the main factor in warming since 1950. The report is the fourth since 1990 from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which is overseen by the United Nations.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/30/wo...ld/30climate.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Blair optimistic over climate change deal
By Andrew Edgecliffe-Johnson in Davos

Published: January 27 2007 18:04 | Last updated: January 27 2007 18:04

US attitudes towards climate change are in the process of “a quantum shift,” Tony Blair said on Saturday, arguing that the world may be “on the verge of a breakthrough” on the issue.

The UK prime minister’s optimism was echoed by John McCain, the Arizona senator and likely US presidential candidate. “I think the US Congress will act soon on this issue and I think the administration will also,” he told the World Economic Forum in Davos, where he was speaking after Mr Blair.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/7973cb34-ae28-11db-8753-0000779e2340.html

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Interesting times ahead for the CO2 deniers!
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miamix707
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:40 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Weather is short-term chaotic but is still increasingly understood in its mechanisms.

Climate is a long-term mechanism which is also understood to an increasing extent, especially with regard to its interactions with other systems.

Weather and climate ins't completely understood yet.. I like how it was predicted 2006 was going to be a very active hurricane season in the atlantic (they even have formulas for this!) but it was probably more based on hype from high activity in the previous years.

The prediction was totally wrong. It ended up being one of the slowest on record and with not even a single major hurricane.

I like warm weather anyways..  Smile
 
SkyGourmet
Posts: 108
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Exp

Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 33):
I should have indicated that

That would have been nice.
Meine dispatcher says there's something wrong mit deine Kabel?
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 30):

Appreciate the links, thank you, but it still does not explain why global warming is occurring on Mars.

Humans, yeah, I can see the pollution contributing to it, but its not necessarily the main cause of it.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
WSOY
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:00 am

A report on the effect of the Sun's periodical activity on the Earth's climate:

http://www.mpg.de/english/illustrati...eleases/2004/pressRelease20040802/

However, researchers at the MPS have shown that the Sun can be responsible for, at most, only a small part of the warming over the last 20-30 years. They took the measured and calculated variations in the solar brightness over the last 150 years and compared them to the temperature of the Earth. Although the changes in the two values tend to follow each other for roughly the first 120 years, the Earth’s temperature has risen dramatically in the last 30 years while the solar brightness has not appreciably increased in this time.
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
User avatar
n229nw
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 11):
That's not the case at all. It needn't be industry that has a political perspective, NGOs do as well. To believe that such entities are pure and unbiased in their approach is simply naiive. As has been put a number of times, the issue with state funding is that No Problem = No Funding.

Well...while climate scientists everywhere have human/political factors driving them and are therefore vulnerable to missing or exaggerating data, etc., this is true in all science. However, peer review does honestly eventually catch these mistakes and the scientific community self-regulates. Thus, when scientific consensus develops, it is usually strongly indicative of some solid findings.

Whatever motivation grant-writers may have to play up crisis, there is a big difference between doing honest science and OUTRIGHT MANIPULATION. I think no other US government in history has blatantly interfered with the scientists who are supposed to be determining policy like the Bush administration has done--and with so much success in terms of making it look like there really is widespread scientific dissent on this issue. Here's just one more new article on it...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2002484,00.html

A quote from the article: In the survey of 1,600 government scientists by the Union of Concerned Scientists, 46% had been warned against using terms like global warming in speech or in their reports. The scientists interviewed were working at seven government agencies, from Nasa to the Environmental Protection Agency.

Forty-three percent of respondents said their published work had been revised in ways that altered the meaning of scientific findings. Some 38% said they had direct knowledge of cases where scientific information on climate was stripped from websites and printed reports.
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:56 pm

Quoting SkyGourmet (Reply 36):
That would have been nice.

Whoa, no reason to get rude when someone apologizes.....geez.  Wink

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Exp

Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 21):
What, do you have any knowledge of this at all? First, temp. records show there wasnt any cooling in the 70s. Second, aerosols had no effect on temp., they destroyed ozone, which is for reflecting some solar radiation. Third, 'filters' on factory chimney doesnt reduce aerosols because aerosols dont come from production anymore, they ave been banned. At least the harmful ones have.

I think you are confusing the colloquial use of aerosol, as in the spray can, with the scientific meaning. Aerosol is short for aerial solid, and it refers to any suspension of solid particulate matter in a gas. Smoke, for instance, is an aerosol.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
RichPhitzwell
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:12 pm

Did it really take doctors to tell us smoking is not the best way to exercise your lungs? But really, its not the smoke that kills you, just what the smoke does that enables, lets say, an environment that encourages cancer.

Just a thought
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WSOY
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:20 pm

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 42):
But really, its not the smoke that kills you,

You're right, it's not the smoke, it's the bodily liquids getting trapping in your lungs that's suffocating you, rather slowly I might add as well. I saw my father-in-law ex-smoker go that way in a hospice -- there are many nicer ways to die.
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Joni
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:26 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 37):
Appreciate the links, thank you, but it still does not explain why global warming is occurring on Mars.

Humans, yeah, I can see the pollution contributing to it, but its not necessarily the main cause of it.

You're right, I was only concentrating on the climate on Earth. Mars is, well, a different planet! And according to these 2.000 climate scientists pollution (or, more exactly, greenhouse gas emissions) is in fact the main cause of it.

The reference to Mars may be relevant because the acticity of the Sun has indeed been increasing - and contributing a small part of the recent warming on Earth. That may of course cause some warming on Mars, too. However the main cause of warming on the Earth are greenhouse gas emissions.
 
WSOY
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:31 pm

Here's by the way an article from Russia (RIA Novosti) where our Doctor's name got spelled as "Abdusamatov". http://en.rian.ru/russia/20070115/59078992.html
Seems he's one of the people in a total denial mode, even regarding the basics of the greenhouse physics.

You will also want to read this piece on exactly why the weather was stormy in the Northern hemisphere recently:

http://www.truthwinds.com/NewsServer...ArticleDetails.php?ArticleID=12954
"The director of the Russia's Pulkova Observatory, Doctor Scientist Habibullo Abdusamatov, has further blamed this ‘Superstorm’ on the what he says was the ‘massive electrical imbalance’ created by the ‘interaction’ of the ‘Red Cow Comet’, currently transversing our inner Solar System, and our Sun, and which on January 15th caused a massive Solar Flare on the far side of our Sun. "


[Edited 2007-01-31 10:53:50]
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Doona
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:06 pm

I'm not too sure about global warming anymore. I heard that scientists 30 years ago warned about "global cooling", and claimed that the solution was to melt the polar ice caps! However, pretty much everyone agree that pollution is bad. So, why not rather be safe than sorry, and reduce emissions? So even if it turns out that the global warming was just a theory, we'll still have a cleaner planet.

On the other hand, the earth will survive pretty much anything, however, we won't. Having little love for people as a species, this doesn't bother me very much. Earth will go on.

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
SkyGourmet
Posts: 108
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Exp

Wed Jan 31, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 41):
I think you are confusing the colloquial use of aerosol, as in the spray can, with the scientific meaning.

Thanks a lot, Yellowstone. I didn't even think of the other meaning of aerosols as in spray cans and was wondering what Speedbird747BA was complaining about. I indeed was talking about solid particles in the atmosphere. I hope things clear up a bit now.
edit: typo

[Edited 2007-01-31 14:05:44]

[Edited 2007-01-31 14:07:41]
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JakeOrion
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 44):
You're right, I was only concentrating on the climate on Earth. Mars is, well, a different planet! And according to these 2.000 climate scientists pollution (or, more exactly, greenhouse gas emissions) is in fact the main cause of it.

I was going to say I should have been more specific, however, when I read this:

Quoting Joni (Reply 44):
The reference to Mars may be relevant because the acticity of the Sun has indeed been increasing - and contributing a small part of the recent warming on Earth. That may of course cause some warming on Mars, too. However the main cause of warming on the Earth are greenhouse gas emissions.

You saw my point, and appreciate that.  Smile

I understand what you are saying, but if global warming is the cause of the next ice age, my next question stands, what caused the last ice age?

Humans weren't around then. (Well we were, but you know what I mean.)

The only thing I'm saying is human pollution can be contributing to global warming, but I thoroughly believe it is not the main cause of it. How can we scientifically prove it if we can't even correctly predict tomorrow's weather 100% of the time?
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Global Warming Caused By Sun, Not Gases -- Expert

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 30):
2,000 scientists all but end the debate: Human activity causes global warming

This is the scariest prediction yet. Science ala Joseph Stalin. To all non-believers: the gulag.

Even the Weather Channel's *Climate expert* Heidi Cullen wants meteorologists not falling in line with sanctioned global warming dogma to be disbarred by the American Meteorological Society.

Seems to me this intellectual dishonesty (not to mention fear mongering and paranoia) is needed to buttress their cause.
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