dl021
Posts: 10836
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Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:34 pm

Venezuelans will vote to surrender their democracy today to the Dictator-to-be Hugo Chavez.

They are voting to give him a "temporary" power of decree (18 months) while he's training his private army to "repel invaders".

It's expected that his first actions will be to nationalize everything he can and socialize the country. Nationalizing socialist.......

Please tell me I'm not the only one seeing history repeat itself here.


My deepest sympathy to the people of Venezuela who voted against him. Better either take to the hills and organize or move out while you can.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
tz757300
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting DL021 (Thread starter):
Please tell me I'm not the only one seeing history repeat itself here.

Oh, you arn't.

Quoting DL021 (Thread starter):
My deepest sympathy to the people of Venezuela who voted against him. Better either take to the hills and organize or move out while you can.

Can I be safe to say that he may become the new, modern day Stalin? I believe he punished/got rid of all the people that we're against him.

This is socialism at its best.
LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
 
miamiair
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 1):
Can I be safe to say that he may become the new, modern day Stalin?

I wouldn't say Stalin, as el Diablo hasn't yet murdered millions through purges, but he is taking after his mentor, Fidel.

The handwriting has been on the wall for a while now. To think this guy was in custody during the coup. I would have had an accidental discharge that would have given him a projectile induced cranial hemmorage. That would have done society a favor.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
dl021
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 3):
To think this guy was in custody during the coup. I would have had an accidental discharge that would have given him a projectile induced cranial hemmorage.

coulda, woulda, shoulda's............... Santayana was right...people that refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
AirCop
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting DL021 (Thread starter):
Venezuelans will vote to surrender their democracy today to the Dictator-to-be Hugo Chavez.

I guess some people just can't handle liberty and freedom; lack of education? If this happens it will not be a good day in the Americas (North/South).

Quoting DL021 (Thread starter):
My deepest sympathy to the people of Venezuela who voted against him. Better either take to the hills and organize or move out while you can.

Chile, Argentina both come to mind as recent examples of the excesses of dictators in South America.
 
aloges
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 1):
Quoting DL021 (Thread starter):
Please tell me I'm not the only one seeing history repeat itself here.

Oh, you arn't.

 checkmark  If you have a population that in considerable parts never had the chance to get a good education, all you need to do is promise these people to lay everything in their hands.

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 1):
This is socialism at its best.

Err... no. Socialism at its best, which was still a poor excuse for a functioning society, was born out of the blatant unfairness of society in the mid-to-late 19th and early 20th century. The people behind it had an ideal and it was "of the people", Chávez on the other hand is a canny populist (ab)using the name to justify his autocratic rule and aspiratios.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Venus6971
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:56 am

A lack of good education to the dirt poor of Venuzuela has caused this. He gave the poor money and he had them eating out of his hand, just like the pandering politicians of this country with the welfare state. Just like Hitler of the past and other dictators, he got voted in. My suggestion to Venuzuelans of wealth,privalege, and power to get your affairs in order you future enemys of the state. All future Major League Baseball prospects I suggest emirgrating before Chavez treats all his ball players like the Cubans do.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 5):
The people behind it had an ideal and it was "of the people", Chávez on the other hand is a canny populist (ab)using the name to justify his autocratic rule and aspiratios.

I have visited Venezuela many times and really like the country. However there is a lot of poverty there and I can see where his support has come from. Having said that I feel very sorry for the people there and they are going to be worse off than they were before, he has led them down the garden path with promises that he will not be able to fulfil. I have a friend there who has said that his cronies are buying all the expensive things around, including aeroplanes for their personal use. He is to rule by decree, until someone puts a bullet through his head. He is trying to follow Fidel, but that was a different time and place. The Venezuelan people are not the Cuban people and will see through his sham. I just hope that what happens will happen quickly for them
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:28 am

-
and I, when reading that headline, thought the Venezuelans might "surrender" to the USA !  confused 

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 6):
Chavez treats all his ball players like the Cubans do.

-
HOW do the Cubans treat their "ball players" ? whom I suppose to be in FOOTBALL, and neither in baseball nor American-Football
-

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 7):
different time and place

not least as Cuba was and is an island, quite unlike Venezuela, a difference that counts
-
 
Yu138086
Posts: 163
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:30 am

Chavez sits on/drinks oil ("black gold") and uses it as a political and socio-economic tool to secure power domestically since the USA, China and India are eager buyers. He can afford to do this and knows it. He's solidified his power with these crazy new laws under the name of his "Socialist Revolution". His aim is to divide Latin America into Leftist and Rightist/ pro-empire (USA) and anti-empire. It's working. His oil allows it. He plays the percentages wisely and is a great public speaker who knows how to persuade the poor masses. 6 more years...
 
dl021
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
-
and I, when reading that headline, thought the Venezuelans might "surrender" to the USA !

Sorry....I did not account for the hysterical conspiracy theorists!  Wink Seriously, I did not mean to infer they were being invaded...

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
not least as Cuba was and is an island, quite unlike Venezuela,

If Chavez succeeds he will turn Venezuela into an island.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
-
HOW do the Cubans treat their "ball players" ? whom I suppose to be in FOOTBALL, and neither in baseball nor American-Football

Venezuela's national pastime is as much baseball as anything else. Football is probably equal to baseball there, as far as I can tell. They have produced a large number of professional baseball players.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 10):
not least as Cuba was and is an island, quite unlike Venezuela,
-
If Chavez succeeds he will turn Venezuela into an island.

-
closing the borders with a "defence-wall" like the gone GDR ? brrrr !!
-

Quoting DL021 (Reply 10):
a large number of professional baseball players.

then I indeed might recommend such baseball players to emigrate
-
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:42 am

Latest update Chavez now to rule by decree for the next 18 months. He is saying that one of his first priorities is to do way with elections, according to the BBC and make himself President for life and make the assembly for life as well. There goes the Venezuela that I knew so well
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 12):
according to the BBC and make himself President for life and make the assembly for life as well.

while the BBC report says :
He wants to scrap presidential term limits and rewrite the constitution to build what he calls "socialism for the 21st Century". Officials say he has no intention of turning Venezuela into a communist state
******************************************************
nothing about "president for life" . You unfortunately may become right in the end, but you canNOT have seen it on the BBC-WEBsite . In regard to the terms the change gives him the right to be a candidate each time again.
-
whatever, it indeed looks far from splendid. His chance of course is the oil-income of his country with which he can finance a lot
 
tz757300
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 12):
Latest update Chavez now to rule by decree for the next 18 months. He is saying that one of his first priorities is to do way with elections, according to the BBC and make himself President for life and make the assembly for life as well. There goes the Venezuela that I knew so well

I sure hope his actions won't crumble the countries of the continent. I know many of the countries have a bulk of their economies based off of tourism and now that there is a big bad bully there, I bet you the tourism will dwindle away. I'm sure most people don't want to go to an area where chaos is probably going to ensue.
LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
nothing about "president for life" . You unfortunately may become right in the end, but you canNOT have seen it on the BBC-WEBsite . In regard to the terms the change gives him the right to be a candidate each time again

It was on the ticker tape. Will check later and see if they removed it. My friend in Venezeula has told me that he and his family are seling their home and moving to Canada as he sees a lot of unrest there in the next little while and he wants to do it before the price drops too much
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
dl021
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
closing the borders with a "defence-wall" like the gone GDR ? brrrr !!

He's already militarized the border with Columbia and provided support to their insurgent groups.

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 12):
Latest update Chavez now to rule by decree for the next 18 months. He is saying that one of his first priorities is to do way with elections, according to the BBC and make himself President for life and make the assembly for life as well. There goes the Venezuela that I knew so well

I did not expect that as the first act....that's incredible. Congratulations on all you people who were Chavez supporters.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
whatever, it indeed looks far from splendid. His chance of course is the oil-income of his country with which he can finance a lot

I wish one of our Venezeulan A. Netters would come up and give us the real facts from there. Nothing like straight from the horses mouth

[Edited 2007-01-31 18:18:07]
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 17):
whatever, it indeed looks far from splendid. His chance of course is the oil-income of his country with which he can finance a lot
--
I wish one of our Venezeulan A. Netters would come up and give us the real facts from there. Nothing like straight from the horses mouth

-
They presumably wait until the matters become a bit clearer. I simply fear that your predictions are gradually becoming truth. I still hoped that Mr Chavez might have kept a tiny little bit of common sense, but developments look otherwise. Rather sad !
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:33 am

Did you ever notice that no one from Venezuela posts in these Venezuela threads? I wonder why.  scratchchin 

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting DL021 (Thread starter):
Please tell me I'm not the only one seeing history repeat itself here.

You mean like:

Julius Caesar
Augustus Caesar
Maximilian Robespierre
Napoleon Bonaparte
Lenin
Adolph Hitler

People are always ready to toss their freedom out the window so opportunists.

Anyone who can promise wealth and security and make sure that the rich get punished.

Makes you think doesn't it? Makes you think about how he was applauded at the UN. How welcomed he was in Harlem. How people like Cindy Sheehan call him a friend.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
searpqx
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:47 am

I wish the people of Venezuela well, history is not on their side, and nothing Chavez has done gives me any hope. The end result of 'socialist' regimes such as these has almost always been a country plunged into chaos, stripped of its resources and its infrastructure, and lacking the stability needed to rebuild.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
halls120
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting DL021 (Thread starter):
Venezuelans will vote to surrender their democracy today to the Dictator-to-be Hugo Chavez.

They are voting to give him a "temporary" power of decree (18 months) while he's training his private army to "repel invaders".

It's expected that his first actions will be to nationalize everything he can and socialize the country. Nationalizing socialist.......

Please tell me I'm not the only one seeing history repeat itself here.

You aren't. What's sad is that the Venezuelan people, who stand the most to lose with this onset of a dictatorship, are apparently blind to the freedom they are surrendering.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 18):
still hoped that Mr Chavez might have kept a tiny little bit of common sense, but developments look otherwise. Rather sad !

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. What more can I say than that
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 19):
Did you ever notice that no one from Venezuela posts in these Venezuela threads? I wonder why.

Yes and they have even started them. There was one here that started out about Chazez and Fidel and went on for awhile
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
andessmf
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 5):
Chávez on the other hand is a canny populist (ab)using the name to justify his autocratic rule and aspiratios.

From others I have heard the same thing, he is simply using socialism as his way in, he is a mixed bag of shit.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 19):
Did you ever notice that no one from Venezuela posts in these Venezuela threads?

They have before, many against him. Only had one a.netter from Venezuela partly support him. My remark on Chavez threads was that almost no one from LatAm would support him. It always took people from the US and Europe to give him some encouragement. These a.netters have slowly and surely disappeared from these discussions.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
are apparently blind to the freedom they are surrendering.

The ones who are not have left or are in the process of leaving Venezuela.
 
dl021
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:27 am

I wonder if whoever is running the civil guard Chavez is paying $7 per day remembers what happened to the guy running the SA after the last '33 elections?

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 19):
Did you ever notice that no one from Venezuela posts in these Venezuela threads? I wonder why.

They do so. LuisDc8 and others post here.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
What's sad is that the Venezuelan people, who stand the most to lose with this onset of a dictatorship, are apparently blind to the freedom they are surrendering.

I disagree. The ones with something to lose and realize it are the middle class and the wealthy. They understand well the problems here, but their political opposition parties boycotted the last election (even though President Carter certified it as honest....in spite of the brownshi...I mean civil guards who "monitored" the polling places for Chavez) and surrendered their opportunity to publicly protest this in an official forum.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting DL021 (Thread starter):
They are voting to give him a "temporary" power of decree (18 months) while he's training his private army to "repel invaders".

Enabling Act, anyone? I agree, it's history repeating itself, only without a racist madman à la Hitler being in charge but with a populist wannabe socialist madman at the helm who basically swims in oil.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 2):
I wouldn't say Stalin, as el Diablo hasn't yet murdered millions through purges, but he is taking after his mentor, Fidel.

Still, you can draw paralels between Hitler and Chávez. Both start a coup d'état, get arrested and are later bascially pardoned. Then, both come to power legally and enact their own "Enabling Act". Hitler did this in the wake of the Reichstag fire, for which the communists were responsible (at least according to the Nazis, there's still speculation that the Nazis themselves commited this arson, to have a reason to blame the communists), while Chávez does this in order to "protect" his country from the American "Imperialists". Granted, Hitler and Chávez are two different dictators with different political ideologies, but there are similarities as to how they took and controlled power in their respective countries.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 20):
People are always ready to toss their freedom out the window so opportunists.

 checkmark 

I hope all the Chávez apologists will take note and finally realise the true nature of Lieutenant Colonel Hugo Chávez Frías (hell, Chávez never even made it to full colonel when he was in the Army).
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 25):
It always took people from the US and Europe to give him some encouragement.

-
I think you see something wrong. When President Nasr was in power in Egypt, many Egyptian conservatives and many Europeans gave the forecast that Nasr, Sadat, Mohiedeen etc would land up as full communists, what they NEVER did. It was similar with Houari Boumediene in Algeria, who just as Nasr was closely allied with the USSR but declined to turn his country communist. The fascist leaders of Portugal and Spain, Salazar and Franco, whenever strict dictators, NEVER turned into "Iberian Hitlers". In Asia, Mr Nehru NEVER became a communist either. In the "old world" people were used to see leaders using rough rethorics but in reality steering into some compromises. It shockingly but increasingly looks as if Latin American politics is different. Or that at least Mr Chavez is different.
-
You see, even INSIDE the Eastern Bloc, leaders like Kadar of Hungary and Shivkoff of Bulgaria tried to move their brand of communism at least somewhat towards a "middle-road".
-
 
halls120
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 26):
I disagree. The ones with something to lose and realize it are the middle class and the wealthy.

I'd argue that the loss of freedom is a loss that will impact the poor as well. The rich and middle class might lose more in the way of material possessions, but losing one's freedom is a pretty expensive loss.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
TheCol
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 19):

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:14 am

Hey guys, latest update. Chavez has said that one of his priorities is a million man army as quickly as possible. Just caught that on the news. Can anyone else verify it. I guess he really wants to rule with an iron fist. He claims he needs it for the evil empire to stop them invading, I did not know the US was part of the Star Wars movie. Just saw him ranting and raving on TV, I speak a little Spanish and what I got was the fact that his people need protection. That is a good way to bribe them and waste money, give him a little while and he will brankrupt the country, even with all it's oil

[Edited 2007-01-31 20:34:40]
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28):
The fascist leaders of Portugal and Spain, Salazar and Franco, whenever strict dictators, NEVER turned into "Iberian Hitlers".

So your saying so long as a dictator doesn't abuse his power a la Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Robespierre, Augustus, Caligula, Nero... then losing your freedom is OK.

Sorry. I have been indoctrinated to believe that power is derived from the people. Not allowing the people a voice in their government no matter how benevolent the dictatorship is, is anathema to me.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28):
You see, even INSIDE the Eastern Bloc, leaders like Kadar of Hungary and Shivkoff of Bulgaria tried to move their brand of communism at least somewhat towards a "middle-road".

What you fail to see is that any flavor of communism degrades human individuality. Until taken to its extreme, one can end up with Stalinist Russia. So what if one leader is benevolent. Fascism on the one end and Communism on the other, because they consolidate power in the hands of the few, or the one, are inherently vulnerable to personality of one person. Your next leader could be a genocidal maniac.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting DL021 (Thread starter):
Please tell me I'm not the only one seeing history repeat itself here.

Looks like everyone on here sees it, Ian.

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 1):
Can I be safe to say that he may become the new, modern day Stalin?

More like the new, modern-day Castro. The big difference may be in the last quote I highlighted below, and the geography of those two nations.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 10):
Venezuela's national pastime is as much baseball as anything else

It is. Lots of big-leaguers from Venezuela. My favorite shortstop of all time, Omar Vizquel, comes to mind.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
Officials say he has no intention of turning Venezuela into a communist state

Anyone believe that line?

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 17):
I wish one of our Venezeulan A. Netters would come up and give us the real facts from there. Nothing like straight from the horses mouth

You mean, while they still can? I think he'll go after the internet to further isolate Venezuela from the outside world, and cut off "Yankee influence"

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 29):
I'd argue that the loss of freedom is a loss that will impact the poor as well.

More than anyone. Now that he has solidified power indefinitely, he doesn't need the poor anymore. He'll stomp on them just as much.

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 31):
Hey guys, latest update. Chavez has said that one of his priorities is a million man army as quickly as possible. Just caught that on the news. Can anyone else verify it. I guess he really wants to rule with an iron fist.

He doesn't want a million-man army to rule. I think he wants it to menace his neighbors with. I can see a lot of increase in military spending throughout South America, with this idiot running loose.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 32):
So your saying so long as a dictator doesn't abuse his power a la Hitler, Saddam Hussein, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Robespierre, Augustus, Caligula, Nero... then losing your freedom is OK.

not "OK", but surviveable -- a tiny difference
-

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 32):
What you fail to see is that any flavor of communism degrades human individuality.

I do NOT fail to see but completely agree. People in Europe (BOTH sides) in the 50ies, 60ies, 70ies had no hope to be able to change the divide in Europe and were appreciating whatever small steps in favour of those with the decisive DISadvantage were taken. It was 4 / FOUR decades of small steps. People from the West could go and visit "them" but you could never invite anyone "overthere" to your place.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 32):
have been indoctrinated to believe that power is derived from the people

that sounds "honourable" in a way, but presented in a rather doctrinary way
-
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 31):
Hey guys, latest update. Chavez has said that one of his priorities is a million man army as quickly as possible. Just caught that on the news. Can anyone else verify it. I guess he really wants to rule with an iron fist. He claims he needs it for the evil empire to stop them invading, I did not know the US was part of the Star Wars movie

If this is accurate, I see a South American arms race in the near future. Not what anybody needs, at this point.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35):
Not what anybody needs

Russia ? with its aircraft / armament industry ?  yes  yes  yes 
 
kmh1956
Posts: 2854
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 33):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
Officials say he has no intention of turning Venezuela into a communist state

Anyone believe that line?

...about as much as "Read my lips. No new taxes."
'Somebody tell me why I'm on my own if there's a soulmate for everyone' :Natasha Bedingfield
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:13 am

I do not necessarily believe that Chavez will go communist, but it should be mentioned that he has shown marxist tendencies.

Chavez is a simply opportunist, using whatever means necessary, or political system available, to achieve his goal of become 'Supreme Leader' of Venezuela. He will grab all sorts of items from other political systems and call it 'Bolivarianism'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolivarianism
 
Derico
Posts: 4209
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35):
If this is accurate, I see a South American arms race in the near future. Not what anybody needs, at this point.

There is already an psudo-arms race, I have posted two threads about the matter already last year.

Brazil, Chile, Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, Mexico and Venezuela are already upgrading on different levels. Which is why I'm so satisfied Argentina has not made any military investments simply because other countries have.

It perhaps explains why social development and infraestructure in Argentina is growing by leaps and bounds in recent years along with 9% economic growth (and Argentina already was the most developed country after Canada and the United States).
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PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 38):
do not necessarily believe that Chavez will go communist, but it should be mentioned that he has shown marxist tendencies.

Thanks for the link, I found it very fascinating, he has an axe to grind as his families property was taken away. Well I guess he will exact his own kind of justice now
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dl021
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:58 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 29):
I'd argue that the loss of freedom is a loss that will impact the poor as well.

I fully agree with that, but I specified that the people who KNOW they have something to lose....


many of the poor in Venezuela don't understand what's at stake, and are pinning their hopes on the guy passing out bread at circuses....
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dl021
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 31):
guys, latest update. Chavez has said that one of his priorities is a million man army as quickly as possible. Just caught that on the news. Can anyone else verify it.

Absolutely....just like Hitler had his SA and SS Chavez has started his own brownshirts who will be used to intimidate or worse opposition that dares makes it's presence known.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 33):
Quoting DL021 (Thread starter):
Please tell me I'm not the only one seeing history repeat itself here.

Looks like everyone on here sees it, Ian.

Thank God.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 33):
Anyone believe that line?

if so I've got the listing on a canal just north of there....cheap!

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 33):
He doesn't want a million-man army to rule. I think he wants it to menace his neighbors with. I can see a lot of increase in military spending throughout South America, with this idiot running loose.

I believe it's more geared toward internal control than anything else. He's afraid of the organized military since it's the only force that can actually do anything about him anymore, even though he's already had a couple of purges and has copied the Cuban (i.e. Soviet) system for assuring political reliability.
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Falcon84
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 42):
I believe it's more geared toward internal control than anything else.

I'm not sure. He makes threats all the time; he's hanging out with Mahmoud OneManJihad in Iran. I'm sure a lot is for internal control, but I can see that guy looking for a fight somewhere down the road, to prove he has testicles.
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dl021
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:46 am

Well, his problem with a "million man army" is that he has no way to equip, transport, support, or communicate with a million men other than in a general mass broadcast.

What he's really going after is a skilled cadre that can manipulate the masses and get large numbers of thugs to show up places to break up any opposition gatherings and to intervene in the case of a coup.

This plan is actually a good one in that regard. Any Army action to stage a coup (the Air Force has been fairly neutralized as far as that goes) would have to contemplate how they're going to deal with the masses of angry mobs that Chavez could call out with one radio call.
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miamix707
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:24 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 3):
Santayana was right...people that refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Well there's plenty of ignorance about what socialism/communism really brings in most of Latin America, unfortunately. However, it's also true that both Fidel and Hugo put on a mask and lied to their respective countries. Fidel beneffited from corruption, Chavez from poverty. They both said they were coming to clean everything up for the good of the people. Neither claimed they'd be socialist'/communist and it was only obvious they'd be dictators until they were firmly in power. In the case of Cuba it would have been VERY easy for the US to intervene but they didn't. One of the biggest mistakes in US foreign policy, ever.

They could have intervened with Venezuela as well, but things might have been a bit more complicated there.. If time could be turned back however, I'm sure they US would have tried to do something to get rid of Chavez while it was easier. It would've done the whole region and even the world a favor.

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 7):
He is to rule by decree, until someone puts a bullet through his head. He is trying to follow Fidel, but that was a different time and place

He's trying to follow Fidel because Chavez is not only power hungry but he's also dumb as bricks. I mean it's doubtful that even a Fidel Castro would impose this type of system all over again. You can be a dictator but at least don't screw up the whole country copying Cuba's system which doesn't work!

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 7):
The Venezuelan people are not the Cuban people and will see through his sham

Well, the only thing that prevented the cubans from getting rid of Castro in the island was that since it's a small territory Castro effectively and quickly took control of all the weapons and whatever military was left. How no one in Venezuela has been able to put Chavez to sleep still baffles me..

It's unfortunate that many poor Venezuelas are so mis-informed. However it doesn't mean poor people can't be selfish and greedy. Here we had a second round where many could have voted Chavez out.. and yet they still believe and hope Chavez will keep his promises to them (while they see how he's screwing up the economy). What do they care?

I was watching TV Venezuela and an economist was saying how there has been no foreign investment lately and that is causing a loss of jobs.

The ran a clip of Chavez and it's scary how much more threatening he's gotten, copying his mentor's mannerisms and all. Talking about another TV channel telling them to "watch out" and don't attempt to mess around spreading "lies" because they're not going to like it!! I guess TV Venezuela who was transmitting this will be a goner as well eventually...
 
PanAmOldDC8
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:32 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 45):
was watching TV Venezuela and an economist was saying how there has been no foreign investment lately and that is causing a loss of jobs.

Venezula has oil. but still needs investment. Without investment they are in a sad shape and a lot more will lose their jobs especially the same poor who he claims to love. He is a self serving peson without any care for anyone but himself and his cronies
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andessmf
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 46):

Venezula has oil. but still needs investment.

BTW, they still have not recovered to the level of oil production they had prior to the crippling oil strike of a few years ago. IIRC, Chavez fired a bunch of the workers and replaced them with his supporters.

If the price of oil had not spiked, Chavez would have disappeared long ago. I would not be surprised if his latest nationalization program has more to do with trying to get more money to fulfill the many financial obligations he has.
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:59 am

This is too bad. A good friend of mine lives in Venezuela and he is in strong opposition to Chavez. He tells me things are getting out of hand there. It's a shame too, Venezuela is a beautiful country.

All the best to Venezuela.

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
dl021
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RE: Venezuelans To Surrender Today

Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 45):
In the case of Cuba it would have been VERY easy for the US to intervene but they didn't. One of the biggest mistakes in US foreign policy, ever

To be fair...probably not. We could have supported Ho Chi Minh when he asked us to in the late 40's.....we supported the French instead in perhaps the greatest foreign policy blunder of the 20th century. We could have had a friendly ally (socialist to be sure, but loyal to themselves first and knowing who their friends were) on the Chinese border and not have worried about the dominos being set up the way they were.

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 45):
If time could be turned back however, I'm sure they US would have tried to do something to get rid of Chavez while it was easier. It would've done the whole region and even the world a favor.

It was attempted, and we tacitly supported it, to the point of recognizing the new government that gave up a day or so later.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 47):
I would not be surprised if his latest nationalization program has more to do with trying to get more money to fulfill the many financial obligations he has.

All he has to do is sign the contract with the Chinese and they'll build a refinery for his heavy crude and buy it all if he'll let them.
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