halls120
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Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:10 am

Well, it was predictable, at least. Don't you love government management of the economy?

Quote:
Some Valley employers, especially those in the food industry, say payroll budgets have risen so much that they're cutting hours, instituting hiring freezes and laying off employees.

And teens are among the first workers to go.

Companies maintain the new wage was raised to $6.75 per hour from $5.15 per hour to help the breadwinners in working-poor families. Teens typically have other means of support.

Mark Messner, owner of Pepi's Pizza in south Phoenix, estimates he has employed more than 2,000 high school students since 1990. But he plans to lay off three teenage workers and decrease hours worked by others. Of his 25-person workforce, roughly 75 percent are in high school.

"I've had to go to some of my kids and say, 'Look, my payroll just increased 13 percent,' " he said. " 'Sorry, I don't have any hours for you.' "

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0210biz-teenwork0210.html
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
DC10extender
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:14 am

I take it you are against minimum wage increases. I think that it is good that minimum wage is rising but $1.50 a hour is a little steep. It should be more gradual.
Did you ever read on your birth certificate that life is fair? Thats cause its not there.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:21 am

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
Mark Messner, owner of Pepi's Pizza in south Phoenix

Perhaps a better example than a pizza parlor could be used. A friend used to manage a non-chain neighborhood pizza parlor in L.A. that did at least half of its business with deliveries. He claimed that their cost of a $15 pizza was around $3 depending upon toppings. The owner took 5 figures out of the place each week. A 13% increase in the payroll, when the bulk of the employment is centered mainly around the dinner hour, isn't in dollar terms all that much of a hit to the bottom line.
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D L X
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:23 am

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
Don't you love government management of the economy?

I like government management of the economy a LOT more than I like corporate management of the economy.

For every little pizza shop that now can't find a way to pay a teenager, there are 50 corporations that would send that job overseas if they can find a way.
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:24 am

Minimum wage in the Yukon was raised from $7.20/hour to $8.25/hour not that long ago, and theres talk of raising it again. It is currently the second highest in Canada (Nunavut I believe has $8.50). In winter you have to do some looking to find a job, but in summer here you can take a walk through town and see a help wanted sign in pretty much every second window. All depends where you live I guess...


CanadianNorth
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halls120
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:25 am

Quoting DC10extender (Reply 1):
I take it you are against minimum wage increases. I think that it is good that minimum wage is rising but $1.50 a hour is a little steep. It should be more gradual.

I am for letting the market decide what labor is worth. Not the government by edict.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
halls120
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:28 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
I like government management of the economy a LOT more than I like corporate management of the economy.

For every little pizza shop that now can't find a way to pay a teenager, there are 50 corporations that would send that job overseas if they can find a way.

Really nice rhetoric, but how is it going to help the people who lose their jobs because an employer can't raise his prices fast enough to cover the labor costs that have risen not because the market pushes them there, but because the government wants them to?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
D L X
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
I am for letting the market decide what labor is worth. Not the government by edict

This is *very* shortsighted. Child labor, 75 hour work weeks (for non-lawyers), 10 days vacation (the federal holidays)...

Remember, there was once a time in American history where the market *did* decide. It wasn't good. That's why we have controls now.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
And teens are among the first workers to go.

Better than a man with a family. Teens should be in school learning so that they don't have to make minimum wage some day. So if some teens don't have jobs so a that a person with a couple kids can work and make a little bit more, then so be it.

Either way it affects the economy bad and good.

Bad: Yes some companies cannot afford to pay workers the higher amount and therefore have to lay off.

Good: The companies that can afford to pay more, which means that the worker takes home more money and can afford to spend it therefore giving the economy a boost.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
I am for letting the market decide what labor is worth.

My first job paid $2.80 per hour when the minimum wage was $2.30 per hour back in 1976. Everyone was happy to get that extra 50¢ per hour, and those who weren't up to snuff got the boot rather quickly. But there are a lot of jobs where they merely need a body, the state-mandated gas jockeys in Oregon come to mind, and there needs to be some sort of minimum. Oregon has its own minimum wage law, that was at least a couple of bux higher than the former federal rate.
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N231YE
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:37 am

I think it is about time that the raise happened:

The annual inflation rate is approximately 3%. $5.15/hr is 1997 dollars, NOT 2007 dollars. After 10 years at $5.15/hour, the wage should be 30% higher to compensate for this. Therefore, .30 x $5.15 = $1.55; $5.15 + $1.55 = $6.70. Minimum wage should be $6.70/hour.

I do agree though that the raise should be gradually enacted, to prevent "shock," but I am not against the raise itself.
 
D L X
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 6):
Really nice rhetoric, but how is it going to help the people who lose their jobs because an employer can't raise his prices fast enough to cover the labor costs that have risen not because the market pushes them there, but because the government wants them to?

Well, that's a run-on if ever there was... I think you're saying we should be upset that some kids lost their jobs because of the hike, and we should be upset that it was because of government action as opposed to market action. As a Republican, why do you make this distinction? Would you be upset if the kid lost his job because a big corporation (that didn't hire the kid) knocked off the little shop?
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:43 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
I am for letting the market decide what labor is worth.

So you'll have the super-rich and ultra-poor. How's that good for the country?

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 12):
So you'll have the super-rich and ultra-poor. How's that good for the country?

Just good for the New World Order
 
PPVRA
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:06 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
I like government management of the economy a LOT more than I like corporate management of the economy.



Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
For every little pizza shop that now can't find a way to pay a teenager, there are 50 corporations that would send that job overseas if they can find a way.

So first you say that a market economy isn't good, then you complain of the side-effects of a government-controlled economy? Or did I miss something?

[Edited 2007-02-12 03:07:37]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:13 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 13):
Just good for the New World Order

That's what I've thought for years.



Mark  Smile
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cba
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:14 am

The minimum wage, unlike many other wages, HAS NOT increased at all to keep up with inflation. The minimum wage was $5.15 10 years ago, and should be raised on par with inflation. We are seeing a problem of neglect now: the wage has to now step up less gradually, causing a more painful transition. Were the wage indexed yearly with inflation, this would not be a problem.

Blame the lawmakers who refused to raise it for 10 years (even though they raise their own salaries yearly).
 
D L X
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:14 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):
So first you say that a market economy isn't good, then you complain of the side-effects of a government-controlled economy? Or did I miss something?

No, I complained about market economy twice.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
No, I complained about market economy twice.

Explain, please.

I see you complaining that companies would outsource many jobs overseas, but you support legislature that basically incentives them to do so?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
D L X
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 16):
Blame the lawmakers who refused to raise it for 10 years (even though they raise their own salaries yearly).

Actually, a raise in the minimum wage when we were in a recession would not have been smart at all. (No, I'm not praising Republicans. A broken clock is still correct twice a day.)

Also, there haven't been many pay raises for congresspeople in the last decade.
 
halls120
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 7):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):I am for letting the market decide what labor is worth. Not the government by edict
This is *very* shortsighted. Child labor, 75 hour work weeks (for non-lawyers), 10 days vacation (the federal holidays)...

Remember, there was once a time in American history where the market *did* decide. It wasn't good. That's why we have controls now.

I'm not suggesting that all controls be cast aside. But when the minimum wage is arbitrarily raised in one step by 31%, that is a rise that most small businesses can't absorb, and as a result, people lose their jobs.

Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
Well, that's a run-on if ever there was...

Gee, I didn't realize that we're being judged on our grammar. Didn't realize you were so tight assed about such trivialities. After all, it's just the internet.

Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
I think you're saying we should be upset that some kids lost their jobs because of the hike, and we should be upset that it was because of government action as opposed to market action.

The age of the people who have lost their jobs is not my concern. But you are right - I am concerned that the government has improperly meddled in something best left to the market.

Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
As a Republican, why do you make this distinction? Would you be upset if the kid lost his job because a big corporation (that didn't hire the kid) knocked off the little shop?

Since I'm not a republican, I'm not sure I know how to answer this question. What's interesting is why so many people here like to label others instead of staying on point.

As an independent, here's my answer. If the small pizza joint closes because Pizza Hut moved in and forced him out of business, I'd say too bad, but that's life. But I'll bet that the kid who worked for the Mom and Pop store can get a job at Pizza Hut.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 12):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):I am for letting the market decide what labor is worth.
So you'll have the super-rich and ultra-poor. How's that good for the country?

ÊÊ You really believe raising the minimum wage is going to address the problem of income disparity?

[Edited 2007-02-12 03:30:50]
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
D L X
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:29 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 18):
but you support legislature that basically incentives them to do so?

Raising the minimum wage doesn't give an incentive to outsource. The incentive to outsource is present regardless of what the government requires Americans to be paid.

I'm not saying I support the increase, but the complaints here don't do it for me.
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:38 am

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
Well, it was predictable, at least. Don't you love government management of the economy?

Well, an estimated 1.6 percent of the people in the nationwide workforce earned wages at or below $5.15 per hour before it was increased. I doubt that the negative effects of this increase will hurt the economy at all.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2004.htm
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:44 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 15):
That's what I've thought for years.

Of course "Novus Ordo Secolum" on the dollar is Latin for New World Order
 
D L X
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
I'm not suggesting that all controls be cast aside. But when the minimum wage is arbitrarily raised in one step by 31%, that is a rise that most small businesses can't absorb, and as a result, people lose their jobs.

People should have seen it coming. It's been talked about for years.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
Gee, I didn't realize that we're being judged on our grammar.

Well, you gave me a kitchen sink argument - throw everything into one sentence.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
I'm not a republican

Mea culpa.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
If the small pizza joint closes because Pizza Hut moved in and forced him out of business, I'd say too bad, but that's life.

So, you're not actually concerned with the kid. OK. But why base your argument on it then? Why don't you simply say "I don't like raising the minimum wage because I like letting the market control" and leaving it at that?

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
You really believe raising the minimum wage is going to address the problem of income disparity?

That's not what he said. He's opposed to letting the market decide, as you suggested. And, I agree - letting the market decide will slowly erode the middle class and take us back towards the fiefdom era.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:48 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 21):
Raising the minimum wage doesn't give an incentive to outsource.

Raises costs, which is the reason for outsourcing.

Quoting D L X (Reply 21):
The incentive to outsource is present regardless of what the government requires Americans to be paid.

If there are direct incentives is another matter. Those would likely be damaging, and at the very least a misuse of tax revenue.

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 22):
Well, an estimated 1.6 percent of the people in the nationwide workforce earned wages at or below $5.15 per hour before it was increased. I doubt that the negative effects of this increase will hurt the economy at all.

If only 1.6 percent earn that wage, it just shows how trivial it is. If the minimum wage was increased to an amount at or above the mean wage the average joe in the service industry earns, then you'd have some more significant economic impacts.

This increase may be trivial, but I believe Halls120 was criticizing the principle behind it.

[Edited 2007-02-12 03:51:55]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
doug_or
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 21):
Raising the minimum wage doesn't give an incentive to outsource

I support the increase, but common man. Of course an increase in the minimum wage will increase the incentive to outsource. Increasing the minimum wage increases the cost of low wage workers in the US. That makes them less competitive compared to overseas workers. There really are no if ands or buts.
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Falcon84
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 12):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
I am for letting the market decide what labor is worth.

So you'll have the super-rich and ultra-poor. How's that good for the country?

We already have that. The rich are getting huge tax breaks-during a war, no less-while the rest of us are given tougher regulations to pay off debt, and given almost no chance to ever get out of debt.

Eventually, when the rest become so poor, as to not have any buying power, while the rich live in obscene luxury, the poor will turn it's wrath on the rich. It's happened in many countries. It could happen here.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
You really believe raising the minimum wage is going to address the problem of income disparity?

No, but maybe if you don't dote on the richest Americans while ignoring the rest, that might help. And the problem of income disparity certainly won't be solved by a minimum wage at the old status quo, Halls.

The fact you want to deny the bottom feeders of the economy a decent wage, while not even blinking an eye at the billions given back to the rich, tells me that you don't mind the "let them eat cake" theory of economics, and that frightens me.
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 26):
Of course an increase in the minimum wage will increase the incentive to outsource

Most minimum wage jobs are in the service sector. You can't outsource a McDonalds job to India. I don't think anyone would work a manufacturing job for $5.15 an hour anyway.
 
D L X
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:55 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 25):
Raises costs, which is the reason for outsourcing.

No no no! You've got it backwards. This isn't a chicken and egg situation: outsourcing happened long before the minimum wage increase. LONG before.

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 26):
I support the increase

I don't. But there are bigger fish to fry, as they say, and the things that people complain about as the results of an increase are actually just scapegoat excuses in my opinion.
 
doug_or
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 28):
Most minimum wage jobs are in the service sector. You can't outsource a McDonalds job to India. I don't think anyone would work a manufacturing job for $5.15 an hour anyway.

Well you actauly can outsource drive through ordering overseas (can't find a link, but it has been done). The fact that most minimum wage jobs can't be directly outsourced is one of the many reasons I support the the increase. There are, however, many low paying jobs (particularly call centers) whose competitiveness will be affected the change.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
halls120
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting Ilikeyyc (Reply 22):
Well, an estimated 1.6 percent of the people in the nationwide workforce earned wages at or below $5.15 per hour before it was increased. I doubt that the negative effects of this increase will hurt the economy at all.

You may be correct. But if so few people earn the minimum wage, why does the government feel the need to raise it by 31%?

My guess is that they are doing it because it's a wonderful way to fulfill a campaign promise and say "look what we're doing for you." You know, doing something symbolic and essentially hollow. Instead of doing something to fundamentally address the problems we currently face.

Quoting D L X (Reply 24):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):I'm not suggesting that all controls be cast aside. But when the minimum wage is arbitrarily raised in one step by 31%, that is a rise that most small businesses can't absorb, and as a result, people lose their jobs.
People should have seen it coming. It's been talked about for years.

A nice thought, but it doesn't help Mr.Independent Pizza guy. My guess is that he was paying his lowest paid workers $5.15 because that was the going rate for labor. According to you, he should have foreseen that the minimum was going up, and he should have raised his wages before the government made him do it. But the problem with that is that he would have to pass the increase on to his customers, which might have chosen to shop elsewhere.

I understand the argument that the MW should have been raised long ago in smaller increments. Maybe it should have, but doing it in one 31% increment isn't the solution.

Quoting D L X (Reply 24):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):Gee, I didn't realize that we're being judged on our grammar.
Well, you gave me a kitchen sink argument - throw everything into one sentence.

You asked me three questions in one paragraph, and using the magic ability of cut and paste, I managed to separate them. You couldn't do the same with my run on sentence?

Quoting D L X (Reply 24):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):If the small pizza joint closes because Pizza Hut moved in and forced him out of business, I'd say too bad, but that's life.
So, you're not actually concerned with the kid. OK. But why base your argument on it then? Why don't you simply say "I don't like raising the minimum wage because I like letting the market control" and leaving it at that?

I'm not concerned about this particular kid, because I suspect he's probably a go-getter, and has found another job already.  biggrin  I based my argument on him because that's what the article was about.

Quoting D L X (Reply 24):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):You really believe raising the minimum wage is going to address the problem of income disparity?
That's not what he said. He's opposed to letting the market decide, as you suggested.

Since this thread is about whether the government should be deciding what the value of labor should be in a supposedly free market, if someone is going to complain about the income distribution trend in our country, I think it's a fair question to ask.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 30):
Well you actauly can outsource drive through ordering overseas (can't find a link,

I believe it, but it would go over about as well as a fart in church. It is hard enough to understand the drive thru speakers as it is let alone someone with an accent talking through one. I think most Americans would be up in arms and just go inside and order - most of the time it is faster just to go in and get a carryout than wait in that line at the drive through as you will see an increase in the line because no one can understand the guy... and an increase in mistakes. Still he can take the orders, but someone will have to pass the food out to the car.

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 30):
There are, however, many low paying jobs (particularly call centers) whose competitiveness will be affected the change.

That's already happened. All I gotta do when I have computer problems with my HP and I am talking to someone in India. Same goes for my credit cards.
 
andessmf
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:10 pm

Just to check, does ANYONE here know someone who works for minimum wage only? After all, there are plenty of jobs (restaurants, casinos, etc.) where your paycheck is but a tiny portion of what you receive in TIPS. And most do not declare their entire days tips earning to the IRS.

I have seen this where my wife works. Some workers get over $100 in tips per day, and declare that they made $10.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
The rich are getting huge tax breaks-during a war

You called? Because last year my wife and I made a little over 6 figures together, and I tell you, if this is what being 'rich' is all about...
 
Falcon84
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:13 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 33):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
The rich are getting huge tax breaks-during a war

You called? Because last year my wife and I made a little over 6 figures together, and I tell you, if this is what being 'rich' is all about...

If you made just over 6 figures, you are definitely not in the category of "rich", nor are you getting the windfall of the breaks those who really are rich are getting. It's almost obscene.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
halls120
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:19 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
We already have that. The rich are getting huge tax breaks-during a war, no less-while the rest of us are given tougher regulations to pay off debt, and given almost no chance to ever get out of debt.

Ah yes, the evil rich are sucking the poor and middle class dry. Good tale, but it isn't true.

Quote:
New IRS Data Show All Income Groups Have Seen Tax Liabilities Fall Since 2000

The IRS recently released official tax statistics by income group for the 2004 tax year, and the new data show that despite what some critics of recent tax policy have suggested, all income groups have witnessed their effective federal income tax rates fall, including lower- and middle-income taxpayers.

Table 1 shows how the tax picture has changed for each income group (as defined by adjusted gross income, or AGI) from 2000 to 2004 when all tax returns within each group are included.

You can find the table at http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/1850.html

As far as getting out of debt goes, it's fairly simple. Cut up the credit cards. Live within one's means.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
No, but maybe if you don't dote on the richest Americans while ignoring the rest, that might help. And the problem of income disparity certainly won't be solved by a minimum wage at the old status quo, Halls.

Please see the above entry.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
The fact you want to deny the bottom feeders of the economy a decent wage, while not even blinking an eye at the billions given back to the rich, tells me that you don't mind the "let them eat cake" theory of economics, and that frightens me.

Wow. Why don't you string up a few other campaign slogans? I'm not trying to deny anyone a living wage. I am trying to suggest that raising the minimum wage by 31% in one step will result in people losing their jobs. So tell me, what about those people. You don't care about them?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Falcon84
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35):
Ah yes, the evil rich are sucking the poor and middle class dry. Good tale, but it isn't true.

Actually, it is the truth. Since this president took office, the gap between rich and poor is just skyrocketing. It's absolutely the truth.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35):
I am trying to suggest that raising the minimum wage by 31% in one step

Try two steps. It's an increase that will take place in two phases. And yes, you are trying to deny a decent wage to the lowest workers, who haven't been able to keep up with inflation since the last boost in the wage. If a nation can afford to give billions the rich, it can afford something for those working at the bottom of the pile.

That's not a campaign slogan, it's simply a fact.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
A nice thought, but it doesn't help Mr.Independent Pizza guy. My guess is that he was paying his lowest paid workers $5.15 because that was the going rate for labor. According to you, he should have foreseen that the minimum was going up, and he should have raised his wages before the government made him do it. But the problem with that is that he would have to pass the increase on to his customers, which might have chosen to shop elsewhere.

Say Mr. Independent Pizza guy employs 10 people during the dinner rush, lasting perhaps 4 hours. That's $60 extra per day, or the price of about 4 pizzas. Anyone taking home $10K+ per week shouldn't be firing income-producing employees over $420 per week. The lack of service he'll be providing might possibly drive customers elsewhere where there are employees to handle the customer load and produce a quality product. A very small price increase will cover his costs and still deliver a competitive product.
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:26 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35):
I am trying to suggest that raising the minimum wage by 31% in one step will result in people losing their jobs.

Did business people think the minimum wage was going to stay where it was? It was ripe to be raised dramatically to make up for years of inaction. A smart business owner would have seen it coming and planned accordingly.

Mark
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D L X
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
According to you, he should have foreseen that the minimum was going up, and he should have raised his wages before the government made him do it.

No, that's not what I said. He should have foreseen that the rate was going to rise and prepared financially for it.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
But the problem with that is that he would have to pass the increase on to his customers, which might have chosen to shop elsewhere.

OR, he could take less home himself. But that would never happen. Nobody loves money like rich people.  Wink

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
You asked me three questions in one paragraph, and using the magic ability of cut and paste, I managed to separate them. You couldn't do the same with my run on sentence?

Your sentence didn't make sense, man! It's not that you made a bunch of points in one sentence, it's that you munged everything together to the point it didn't seem to add much to your argument. But moving on...

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
Since this thread is about whether the government should be deciding what the value of labor should be in a supposedly free market, if someone is going to complain about the income distribution trend in our country, I think it's a fair question to ask.

It's a red herring. It's changing the subject. Defend your argument!  Smile Tell us why letting the market decide won't erode the middle class, since this is what you suggest as being better than raising the minimum wage.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 33):
Just to check, does ANYONE here know someone who works for minimum wage only?

Yes, and you do too if you work in an office that has janitors, if you have a paperboy deliver your news, or if you ever buy fast food.
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
You may be correct. But if so few people earn the minimum wage, why does the government feel the need to raise it by 31%?

My guess is that they are doing it because it's a wonderful way to fulfill a campaign promise and say "look what we're doing for you." You know, doing something symbolic and essentially hollow. Instead of doing something to fundamentally address the problems we currently face.

Just because so few people earn the minimum wage doesn't mean that the law makers can't take a little time to help a few of the people who voted for them. Besides, the free market needs a little kick in the ass every now and then. I think that the mimimum wage issue is simple enough that most politicians can agree on it. But try to get them to agree on a complex issue like social security reform or immigration- thats almost impossible!  Smile
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:35 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
Actually, it is the truth. Since this president took office, the gap between rich and poor is just skyrocketing. It's absolutely the truth

Do you have a source for that? Don't get me wrong, I agree with you... but if someone who names himself after a Van Halen album comes to this thread and sees that he will be crying B.S. and demanding a source because his beloved president is being slammed again.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 38):
Did business people think the minimum wage was going to stay where it was? It was ripe to be raised dramatically to make up for years of inaction. A smart business owner would have seen it coming and planned accordingly.

I am very surprised it has stayed at $5.15 for as long as it has. I thought I remember back in the early 1990s, when I was going to college, working at a pizza joint and making minimum wage that I thought it was supposed to go up to $5.75 eventually.
 
D L X
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:36 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 37):
Say Mr. Independent Pizza guy employs 10 people during the dinner rush, lasting perhaps 4 hours. That's $60 extra per day, or the price of about 4 pizzas. Anyone taking home $10K+ per week shouldn't be firing income-producing employees over $420 per week

EXCELLENT post.

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halls120
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35):Ah yes, the evil rich are sucking the poor and middle class dry. Good tale, but it isn't true.
Actually, it is the truth. Since this president took office, the gap between rich and poor is just skyrocketing. It's absolutely the truth.

Did you even look at the chart I provided a link to?

And as far as the gap between the rich and poor increasing, yes, it has. But that gap didn't start in 2001. Maybe you could provide a link to support your claim that the gap is "skyrocketing?"

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 35): I am trying to suggest that raising the minimum wage by 31% in one step
Try two steps. It's an increase that will take place in two phases. And yes, you are trying to deny a decent wage to the lowest workers, who haven't been able to keep up with inflation since the last boost in the wage. If a nation can afford to give billions the rich, it can afford something for those working at the bottom of the pile.

That's not a campaign slogan, it's simply a fact.

Again, you claim we give billions to the rich, yet you post no evidence of this massive giveaway.

I find your rhetoric interesting. "The nation" gives billions to the rich, "the nation" should give more to those on the bottom. Why don't you just come out and admit that what you are advocating is forcible income redistribution?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
cairo
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:40 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):
I am for letting the market decide what labor is worth. Not the government by edict.

Even that great champion of the poor, the voice of hourly wage earners, George W. Bush complained of wage inequity in America,

When the average CEO makes 821 times as much as the entry level minimum wage earner, employers could be unaffected by this minimum wage increase simply by re-arranging the difference to something like 1970s levels, when the CEO "only" made about 70 times as much as the new guys at the bottom.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
You really believe raising the minimum wage is going to address the problem of income disparity?

It helps, yes. I agree with your example that it will hurt some small business owners, but I believe it is more important to reduce the ever increasing gap between rich and poor in America.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):
My guess is that they are doing it because it's a wonderful way to fulfill a campaign promise and say "look what we're doing for you."

Politicians in America act for two reasons: to appease special interests behind the scenes OR to get votes from high profile moves like this. Whether or not it is good for America is often not in the calculation: it is only the special interests (money) and near-term votes that matter.

Cairo
 
halls120
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:49 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 37):
Say Mr. Independent Pizza guy employs 10 people during the dinner rush, lasting perhaps 4 hours. That's $60 extra per day, or the price of about 4 pizzas. Anyone taking home $10K+ per week shouldn't be firing income-producing employees over $420 per week. The lack of service he'll be providing might possibly drive customers elsewhere where there are employees to handle the customer load and produce a quality product. A very small price increase will cover his costs and still deliver a competitive product.

May I first state that I absolutely HATE this new blue screen posting format?

Back to Mr. Independent Pizza man. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't read anywhere in the article about the owner taking home $10K a week. You have some special insight into this guy's financial statements the rest of us don't have?

(Just went back to your earlier post - I see where you get the 10K}

I'm not a small business person. All I can do is read about Pizza Guy, who says he had to let people go because he couldn't absorb the 13% increase in his personnel costs. I guess he decided he couldn't raise his pie prices by 13%. Admittedly, Ice Cream shop owner Kelly was able to not lay anyone off, because he "raised the wages of workers who already made above minimum wage to ensure pay scales stayed even. As a result, "we have to be a lot more efficient" and must increase menu prices, he said." Maybe he doesn't have the same kind of competition the pizza shop guy faces.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 38):
Did business people think the minimum wage was going to stay where it was? It was ripe to be raised dramatically to make up for years of inaction. A smart business owner would have seen it coming and planned accordingly.

How was he supposed to "plan" for it? Raise his prices gradually to pay for a gradual increase in the wages he should have been paying his workers? What if his competition didn't follow suit? He'd lose business, that's what.

Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31): According to you, he should have foreseen that the minimum was going up, and he should have raised his wages before the government made him do it.
No, that's not what I said. He should have foreseen that the rate was going to rise and prepared financially for it.

See my response above.

Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):But the problem with that is that he would have to pass the increase on to his customers, which might have chosen to shop elsewhere.
OR, he could take less home himself. But that would never happen. Nobody loves money like rich people

Ah, here's the truth. Mr. Pizza shop owner is just an evil rich guy, sucking the marrow from his employees.

How predictable.

Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):Since this thread is about whether the government should be deciding what the value of labor should be in a supposedly free market, if someone is going to complain about the income distribution trend in our country, I think it's a fair question to ask.
It's a red herring. It's changing the subject. Defend your argument! Ê Tell us why letting the market decide won't erode the middle class, since this is what you suggest as being better than raising the minimum wage.

I have been defending my argument. I didn't start a thread about income disparity.

[Edited 2007-02-12 04:53:26]
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
halls120
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:54 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 44):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 5):I am for letting the market decide what labor is worth. Not the government by edict.
Even that great champion of the poor, the voice of hourly wage earners, George W. Bush complained of wage inequity in America,

For the record, I did NOT start this thread as a discussion of how raising the minimum wage would or would not address income disparity in America. OTHER PEOPLE have raised this argument. Not me.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 44):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 31):My guess is that they are doing it because it's a wonderful way to fulfill a campaign promise and say "look what we're doing for you." Politicians in America act for two reasons: to appease special interests behind the scenes OR to get votes from high profile moves like this. Whether or not it is good for America is often not in the calculation: it is only the special interests (money) and near-term votes that matter.

We agree on this point!
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 45):
Back to Mr. Independent Pizza man. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't read anywhere in the article about the owner taking home $10K a week. You have some special insight into this guy's financial statements the rest of us don't have?

The article you linked didn't give out his financials. As I stated in my first post, I was using figures given to me by a friend who used to manage a like business. Pizza parlors in general are enormous cash cows, simply due to the differential between cost and price.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 45):
I'm not a small business person. All I can do is read about Pizza Guy, who says he had to let people go because he couldn't absorb the 13% increase in his personnel costs. I guess he decided he couldn't raise his pie prices by 13%.

He would never have to bump up his prices 13% simply because one portion of his costs increased that much.
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Cactus739
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
Mark Messner, owner of Pepi's Pizza in south Phoenix, estimates he has employed more than 2,000 high school students since 1990.

2000 employees in 16 years? that's 125 employees per year. Just over 10 employees per month he has to hire. Where does he find the time to hire and train 2.5 employees per week? Maybe this higher wage will help him hire people who will stick around for longer? If you pay people 5.15 an hour you get people who will leave the minute someone offers them a job at $5.50 an hour. I'd be willing to bet that now that he has to pay these people a decent wage, he won't have such high turnover.

I've never been to Pepi's Pizza...but apparently it's like 4 miles from my house.... might have to check it out.

Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):
Don't you love government management of the economy?

Sometimes the government does have to step in and help out. At 5.15 an hour and 40 hours a week you're pulling in $206 a week. In a month you're getting 824, and that's before taxes. You can't find a halfway decent place to live, pay electric etc and still afford to eat on that much. Admittedly probably not many people that live on their own work at 5.15 an hour jobs... but I'm sure some do. If not, they're going on food stamps etc and hey... the government is helping the economy out again....
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halls120
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RE: Here's What Happens When The Minimum Wage Goes Up

Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 48):
Quoting Halls120 (Thread starter):Don't you love government management of the economy?
Sometimes the government does have to step in and help out. At 5.15 an hour and 40 hours a week you're pulling in $206 a week. In a month you're getting 824, and that's before taxes. You can't find a halfway decent place to live, pay electric etc and still afford to eat on that much. Admittedly probably not many people that live on their own work at 5.15 an hour jobs... but I'm sure some do. If not, they're going on food stamps etc and hey... the government is helping the economy out again....

I AGREE that sometimes the government sometimes has to step in to help. But increasing the MW by 31% in one step wasn't the correct step.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography

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