QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2310
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

I Was Humbled Today

Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:51 am

So today I went with my Great Uncle (if that is what you call your grandmas brother) to the Verterans Hosptial so he can get his medication. He is old as you can tell and so I said I would take him there just so we can spend some time together as well.

Well when we get there, we started walking to the front of the hospital and there were war vets all over the place. Some guys that were just on the older side walking around with their cains from WW2 and Korean War just as happy as can be but you can tell that they were in some sort of pain though. We went in to get his medication and had to sit down as there was a long line so they were handing out numbers. Well we sat down and started talking and he was telling me about WW2 and his Distroyer he was on in the Pacific and all the things he was doing from escorting Aircraft Carriers in the Pacific to guarding the Philippines to making their way to be there for the treaty signing. He likes to tell me his stories. Well sitting next to us was a man that was in WW2 as well and said he was on a certain Aircraft Carrier that my Uncle ended up guarding in the Pacific. It was amazing for him to get to know the guy.

Well on the way out I saw some more guys in wheel chairs going around as slow as can be because them being so old and with no one there to help push them around. There were guys from Korea, Vietnam, and WW2. Then right when we were turning the corner, we saw 3 guys from Iraq in their wheel chairs missing a leg, missing an arm, and one guy who was just disabeld somehow because he was in a wheel chair. They were talking with a guy who had his WW2 hat on that was missing a leg as well and I could hear him telling the younger guys "Dont worrie mates, you will make it. I did all these years and would not give up anything for knowing that I fought not only for our country, but for the lifes of the people that we were helping in Europe." When I heard that I started to get chocked up. My uncle was too.

All this to say, thank you to everyone who has served and is serving. You guys and gals are the greatest examples to us what it means to care about other people.

Thank you

Kyle
QXatFAT
Don't Tread On Me!
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:55 pm

Here's a photo I'm sure has been shared over and over. It fits VERY will with this thread.




To say that I'm less than pleased when perfectly able bodied people fail to stand or to even STFU at the passing of the colors is an understatement.

My hearty Salute to those veterans you saw today . . . young and old. They are surely inspirations.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
HPLASOps
Posts: 1767
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:13 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:58 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Here's a photo I'm sure has been shared over and over.

Do you know the source/context of the photo? That photo speaks more than 1,000 words to me.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Here's a photo I'm sure has been shared over and over.

Do you know the source/context of the photo? That photo speaks more than 1,000 words to me.

I sure do not. I've had it for a couple years . . .

You're quite right, it speaks volumes, especially about "the greatest generation". Please feel free to save a copy. Use it as often as you like, maybe the message will get out.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2310
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:12 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
That photo speaks more than 1,000 words to me.

I agree totally!

ANCFlyer, if you do not mind me asking...what wars/conflicts have you been involved in?

The thing that sticks out most about my uncle to me is that he is the biggest United States Army/Navy/Marines supporter I know. The best man period. What amazes me even more is that he is from Italy and he is more patriotic and shows more support for our troops then anyone I know. Knowing that his father served in WW1 in the Italian Army, then my uncle being born, they moved to the United States and 2 years before the war my uncle inlisted into the Navy before WW2. That speaks volumes to me knowing he is Italian born with his father fighting in one war for another country and he fights for a different one in the next huge war.
Don't Tread On Me!
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 4):
ANCFlyer, if you do not mind me asking...what wars/conflicts have you been involved in?

Big version: Width: 544 Height: 360 File size: 39kb


Salute to your Great Uncle . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
oly720man
Posts: 5761
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:57 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
To say that I'm less than pleased when perfectly able bodied people fail to stand or to even STFU at the passing of the colors is an understatement.

Probably symptomatic of the "entertain me" generation. I mean, you go to a parade to watch all the people go by, listen to the music, see the show, etc.

Do people stand for the flag only when they're told to?? Those who haven't served, that is.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 6):
Do people stand for the flag only when they're told to??

Not everyone. There are so some people that have some respect for their country and some self-respect left in this land. The numbers are falling however.

Not to worry though, I exercise my 'Freedom of Speech' if I see you sitting on your ass and/or running your mouth when the colors go by.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:16 pm

When I was growing up, there will lots of the WWI generation still alive. I remember the various times school, or the cub scouts wuld take us to see them at the old people's homes where they would talk to us. Children are fascinated by the old, and they would tell us everything about what happened in the wars - and I suspect more than they told their own children a lot of the time.

They're treasured memories really, and I do feel a sense of some loss that all those men have gone, and the generation from the second war are disappearing rapidly. My wife's grandfather talks about it sometimes. I remember the first time I met him, and he spoke about being in the Royal Marines. So I asked him what ships he was attached to (naval history being a passion of mine). "Oh, none" he replied. I was a bit puzzled, and asked him how come. "I was a marine commando" he answered.  Wow!

As I've found out later, he is now the last survivor from the recce party who went in, in advance of the liberation of Elba, the "first step" back into Europe for the allies. He was part of the units liberating Japanese PoW camps, and had to make the hideous decision of whether to shoot one of the British prisoners who spotted the unit, in order to make sure he didn't cry out (he didn't). And that he then refused to collect a DSM from the King because they wouldn't give him a 72 hour pass so he could collect his wife (they gave him his pass!) . Oh, and when they formed the SBS, they asked him to be an instructor. My God, he's over 90 and could probably still snap me in two.

Extraordinary stories, and it's a blessing that we still have some of them to talk to.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:55 pm

Bless the individuals who sacrificed so much! Can't say I feel the same for the politicians who started the wars they fought in, though.

It's always interesting to see you British and Americans talk about veterans as your history is so very different. Our veterans from WW2 fought for Hitler, no one ever forgets that and except for a few neo-nazis people at least lament it.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
oly720man
Posts: 5761
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
Can't say I feel the same for the politicians who started the wars they fought in, though.

Indeed.

Whereas in the real world

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_r.../1998/10/98/world_war_i/197627.stm

Stories tell of the British and German soldiers playing football together in No Man's Land on Christmas day - but is this just a legend? Historian Malcolm Brown separates fact from fantasy.

"Just you think," wrote one British soldier, "that while you were eating your turkey, etc, I was out talking and shaking hands with the very men I had been trying to kill a few hours before! It was astounding!"
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
User avatar
KaiGywer
Crew
Posts: 11182
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Here's a photo I'm sure has been shared over and over. It fits VERY will with this thread.

That it does!  Smile
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29943
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):

Fantastic Pic.Says a lot.

These Troops irrespective from which Armed forces they fight for,deserve a lot for their Sacrifice.
The statement is most appropriate"For our Tomorrow,they gave up their Today"

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Queso
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:57 am

Not much that I can add to what has already been said other than my Grandfather fought at Guadalcanal in WWII and he taught me to have great respect for my country, the flag, and those who fought for them. I still remember as a very young child looking up at the .30 Carbine in his gun rack and asking him why he kept guns and he said (from his wheelchair) that if the U.S. ever fell, it would happen from within and he would do whatever he could to keep that from happening.

Very well explained, QXatFAT, and thank you for sharing your experience. Keeps everything else in perspective, doesn't it?

Thanks for sharing that photo, ANC. Looks from the clothes and hairstyles that it's from the mid to late 70's.
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
My hearty Salute to those veterans you saw today . . . young and old. They are surely inspirations.

Thanks for the photo, says a lot. As a Vietnam Vet I am especially proud of those who either lost their lives in battle or were wounded. They are the true hero's and they are the ones that meed to be remembered. Lost a friend of mine 3 days ago, was a hit a run in Hamilton. He and I were members of the Canadian Vietnam Veterans Association, had a few good beers together, he had also lost his leg in Nam, but was one hell of a great guy. Nothing but nothing would put him down until now, like to get my hands on the hit and run driver. Going to his funeral tomorrow, RIP Dan. I end with "Where have all the young men gone"
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Here's a photo I'm sure has been shared over and over. It fits VERY will with this thread.

I've been at parades where I've noticed only a few people standing for the honor guard. A simple, loud, "Stand up for the flag," usually gets them on their feet in a split second. Parents and their kids that don't stand up are the ones that really piss me off. What does their disrespect teach their kids?

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
padraighaz
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
I exercise my 'Freedom of Speech' if I see you sitting on your ass and/or running your mouth when the colors go by.

Then you should hope to never be beside me!

I personally have intense revulsion and suspicion of behaviors and symbols that create emotional group bondings since I think much of the worst of human history has either been caused by individuals being caught up in group hysteria, or having been manipulated through group hysteria.

It's only our flag? It's only showing our troops respect? Nonsense. Look at how things are manipulated right now where we can't even debate the surge policy without having to insulate the issue with a statement of how we support the troops. Look at this web forum where people lose it because they can't see that being opposed to the war and the president is not the same as being opposed to the troops. Look at how the Flag has become a branding for news and talk shows with them being either in the background or on lapel pins. I view this as being a greater insult and more demeaning to the flag than flag burning.

So be careful what assumptions you make about those around you. They might have just as much respect for your symbols but have very different ideas on how to show it.
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:32 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:29 am

Regarding the photo in Reply 1 and people's support for standing up in such a situation, would you want people to stand to respect the flag, or the soldiers in the parade, or some combination thereof?
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
Queso
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 16):

Wow, it's really too bad there's no Disrespected Members list. Sorry you don't understand the concepts of National Pride and respect for those who have fought for your freedom.
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 16):
Then you should hope to never be beside me!

You wouldn't want me there either
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
S12PPL
Posts: 3603
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:26 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
I exercise my 'Freedom of Speech' if I see you sitting on your ass and/or running your mouth when the colors go by.

I stand when the colors are presented, and I show my respect during the anthem and pledge...

But isn't it also their freedom to not stand? Yes, it's wrong, and disrespectful...But isn't it their right as Americans?
Next Flights: 12/31 AS804 PDX-MCO 2/3 AS19 MCO-SEA QX2545 SEA-PDX
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 20):
But isn't it also their freedom to not stand? Yes, it's wrong, and disrespectful...But isn't it their right as Americans?

Yes. And it is also our right to despise them for failing to respect some of our most treasured secular representatives of our nationhood.

Would I despise them? Probably not, because I'm a tolerant fellow. But certainly I have a right to, and I have a right to express my opinion of them, whatever it may be. So long as it does not infringe upon their right not to respect the symbols of our nation, expression that overtly condemns such disrespect, if it is genuine, is also protected by our Constitution.

The beliefs of any American who fails to respect our soldiers who have served honorably, are subject to question in my mind.
What's fair is fair.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 16):
So be careful what assumptions you make about those around you. They might have just as much respect for your symbols but have very different ideas on how to show it.

Since you don't care to demonstrate respect for the ideals for which the flag stands for in the most non-partisan manner available, just how do YOU show your respect?

Quoting Queso (Reply 18):
Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 16):

Wow, it's really too bad there's no Disrespected Members list. Sorry you don't understand the concepts of National Pride and respect for those who have fought for your freedom.

An excellent idea - disrespected members list! We should suggest it to Johan.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
QXatFAT
Topic Author
Posts: 2310
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:51 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
Extraordinary stories, and it's a blessing that we still have some of them to talk to.

Most definatly. I was telling ANC that my Great Uncle is from Italy. His father faught in WW1 for Italy and after the war as a young boy, he moved to the United States with his family. He then inlisted into the Navy before WW2 and then served for the United States as an Italian imigrant whos father faught for another country. I thought this was amazing!

Quoting Queso (Reply 13):
Very well explained, QXatFAT, and thank you for sharing your experience. Keeps everything else in perspective, doesn't it?

Not a problem. And it does keep things in perspectives. How do we normally celebrate Veterans Day or Memorial Day? Useually people just put up their flag, if they actually get off their buts on the couch and put it up, and then use it as a lets go here and do this day instead of actually remembering why we have this day.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
Not everyone. There are so some people that have some respect for their country and some self-respect left in this land. The numbers are falling however.

True they are falling numbers. I remember standing up for the flag every morning at school until I went to the 3rd grade. Then we stopped. I always asked why because I enjoyed this as a part that I could serve as a child. The response was, "We are offending certain students". These were the Jehova Witnesses who do not salute the flag or sing the Anthem. I never ever see students in the class rooms anymore here in Madera, Fresno, Merced standing up for the flag at all. It is a shame! People at my school used to all get to school early so we could all be there for the flag being rased on the outside giant poll! Boy these days are put in history now  Yeah sure
Don't Tread On Me!
 
padraighaz
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
Since you don't care to demonstrate respect for the ideals for which the flag stands for in the most non-partisan manner available, just how do YOU show your respect?

I don't care for,or respect, symbols so I'm not interested in showing respect or disrespect for them either.

I make a distinction between the symbol and what it might stand for. I see many on this forum who think patriotism and flag waving is an automatic trump card in any debate or discussion. I see many who profess a love of the Flag, but who I think are barely distinguishable from fascists, and so I think talk is cheap in this area. If you really respected the Flag, you wouldn't use it as a litmus test of loyalty.

Can someone show respect for the Flag with integrity? Absolutely and more power to them, but it's not for me. However, to infer there is no respect for the ideals behind the Flag because someone (like myself) dislikes group-psyche behaviors is not correct.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 22):
An excellent idea - disrespected members list! We should suggest it to Johan.

"Let's form an enemies list so we can quickly categorize forum members into those like 'us' and those like 'them....' It will save us having to read and think about what others might say..." Hmmm. Why even bother with dialog? Why not just label the various lists as patriotic and unpatriotic and say "he is on this list and so is wrong" and just get it over with? Wouldn't that be awesome? Hey I bet there'd be another slice of bread in the loaf you buy at the store if we did that! How about we put a yellow colored 'T' symbol beside the login names of traitors? We'll get around to the Jews and Muslims next month...

Have you guys any idea how pathetic and juvenile a Disrespected Members list sounds?

For the record, I'd be proud to be on any Disrespected Members list some people would have, since the flag has become (you gotta love the irony here) somewhat superficial through over use. But a fresh new wave of fascism and lynch-mobbing based on whether you DISPLAY respect for the flag or not based on the flag-respect-purity-gatekeepers is absolutley hilarious!
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 16):
Then you should hope to never be beside me!

I personally have intense revulsion and suspicion of behaviors and symbols that create emotional group bondings since I think much of the worst of human history has either been caused by individuals being caught up in group hysteria, or having been manipulated through group hysteria.

I think I would agree with you that cussing you out, as implied by ANCFlyer, wouldn't be appropriate if you failed to stand for the flag. However, treating you with distance and otherwise questioning your motives very much would be.

Would anyone have the right to call you on your failure to stand for the flag? Yes. But given the circumstances, causing a commotion by doing so would probably not be for the best.
What's fair is fair.
 
padraighaz
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 21):
The beliefs of any American who fails to respect our soldiers who have served honorably, are subject to question in my mind.

Who fail to respect? Or, who fail to display it publicly? Or who claim to do so because it serves their political agenda even as they waste soldiers' lives in half-baked adventures?

And how do you infer the inner intent of those who love what the flag stands for, but are wary of jingoistic abuse of the flag, that you can fairly conclude they are 'subject to question?'
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 26):
And how do you infer the inner intent of those who love what the flag stands for, but are wary of jingoistic abuse of the flag, that you can fairly conclude they are 'subject to question?'

Like it or not, we are judged by appearances. At a public ceremony or occasion on which one is given the opportunity to show one's respect, if one fails to offer it, then what is the logical inference?
What's fair is fair.
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:22 am

I remember this slogan from the VietNam war era.

http://www.militaryplaques.com/Emblems/America%20Love%20It%20or%20Leave%20It!.jpg
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 28):
I remember this slogan from the VietNam war era

Yes I do very well. A lot took up the leave it part
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:26 am

^^ That sentiment is defensible, but only if one keeps in mind that no one political party speaks for all Americans. Liberals who criticize this Administration often have every much a right as claiming to love this country as people who support it.

The principle of love of country extends to love of its core values and institutions, therefore leading to respect for their symbols. It surely does not lead to any need for unanimity as a matter of prudence, with limited exceptions in times of war.
What's fair is fair.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:38 am

Really, it's quite remarkable how some of you have got wrapped up in an argument about a poxy flag. Yours, mine whoevers, it's not the point of the original post.

The men and women are the ones that matter. Those are the ones who deserve the salute. When this thread started receiving comments from people of other countries it was about the people. As a Briton, do you think I give a shit about your flag? But your veterans, that's a different matter entirely. In fact, when I watch the Remembrance Day parade down Whitehall, do you think I give a shit about my own flag? These people fought and died for their mates, for their King or Queen, or their family or for the freedom of their nation. They are the ones to pay tribute to, and your arguments about a flag are moving the symbolism of it as representing the people who fought, to a level above the people who fought. How've you managed that?

For heaven's sake, move away from the rhetoric and talk about the real issue, the people.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
padraighaz
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 25):
However, treating you with distance and otherwise questioning your motives very much would be.

I've stated my motives - and I can live with them.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 27):
Like it or not, we are judged by appearances. At a public ceremony or occasion on which one is given the opportunity to show one's respect, if one fails to offer it, then what is the logical inference?

The inference is that the person might be like me, i.e. someone who is extraordinarily wary of group thinking. I would hope people are smart enough to realize that if someone really had hidden malicious intentions toward the USA, they would be the first to join the group in order to fit in.

Of course there might be some who genuinely hate the flag and what it stands for that don't salute it. On the other hand, there are those who hate the flag's freedoms but who want to be seen as Patriotic and so make a big deal over saluting the flag. So, saluting the flag is no guarantee of real respect, anymore than not saluting is a statement of opposing what the flag stands for.

America is supposed to embrace tolerance and respect for others that disagree with you. Drawing inferences based on whether someone publicly salutes the flag would seem to be quite un-flag like.

[Edited 2007-02-13 19:47:55]
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:50 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 31):
For heaven's sake, move away from the rhetoric and talk about the real issue, the people.

Unfortunately the flag is part of the whole operation, whether you agree or disagree. When you fight, it is the flag of your country that you fight under. It is the symbol that stands for what your country stands for, so in actual fact you can't seperate the two as difficult as it is. I know that in this time most people do not have the respect for the flag as we did, things change whether for the better or the worst, only time will tell. This is not a rebuke of your statement but and opposing view, to which we are all entitled. I agree with your statement about the men and women who fought and they should be given the respect that they are due, as no country regardless of where it is can honour them enough. The WW2 generation is slowly leaving this place and as the ones who have to carry the torch need to respect them for what they did. They are the greatest generation
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
CroCop
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:42 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:51 am

The ultimate THANKS,


Sadly we dont see what they see, they have given so much.
Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 31):
In fact, when I watch the Remembrance Day parade down Whitehall, do you think I give a shit about my own flag? These people fought and died for their mates, for their King or Queen, or their family or for the freedom of their nation. They are the ones to pay tribute to, and your arguments about a flag are moving the symbolism of it as representing the people who fought, to a level above the people who fought.

Banco, I agree that it's the people that matter most. However, unlike in Britain, the national flag here in the United States is held with a degree of reverence far beyond its physical nature, similar to that held for the office of the Presidency. Perhaps the closest comparison would be to the appearance of your Queen, at which every Briton is expected to pay homage.
What's fair is fair.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 33):
Unfortunately the flag is part of the whole operation, whether you agree or disagree.

I would say it isn't when you look at the broader picture. I have no interest whatsover in your flag, and roll my eyes when I read discussions on it. I wouldn't expect you to be any different in a similar discussion about my flag (though that wouldn't happen - we aren't remotely as precious about it and tend to react to flag burning with amusement rather than anger), but the point is that I can honour US veterans and you can honour British, Australian, Canadian, Indian, New Zealand or whoever it might be.

That's what I mean about the symbolism. It's supposed to represent them, not be placed above them. If you forget the meaning of it then all you're left with is the rather idiotic worship of a piece of cloth.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 35):
Perhaps the closest comparison would be to the appearance of your Queen, at which every Briton is expected to pay homage.

Are we? Bloody hell, that'll be news to the whole country! Sod that!

More seriously, I don't think there is an equivalent. A much greater level of cynicism and complete absence of reverence for just about anything is hardwired into us.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 37):
More seriously, I don't think there is an equivalent. A much greater level of cynicism and complete absence of reverence for just about anything is hardwired into us.

I can certainly gather that. Might I ask how long this has been, because it certainly did not exist to this extent upon the coronation of Elizabeth II, which was widely revered, as I understand.

May I also say how much I appreciate your personal respect for veterans of Britain and the United States, as I believe that it is much deserved. (I would also say that veterans who fought on behalf of the classic Allies, including Canada, Australia, and the like, are also worthy of respect.)

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 32):
America is supposed to embrace tolerance and respect for others that disagree with you. Drawing inferences based on whether someone publicly salutes the flag would seem to be quite un-flag like.

There are limits to tolerance that might be imposed, however. For example, one is often asked not to tolerate hate speech. Why should there not be a soft limit, at least, on the open display of contempt for our flag?
What's fair is fair.
 
padraighaz
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 36):
I would say it isn't when you look at the broader picture. I have no interest whatsover in your flag, and roll my eyes when I read discussions on it. I wouldn't expect you to be any different in a similar discussion about my flag (though that wouldn't happen - we aren't remotely as precious about it and tend to react to flag burning with amusement rather than anger), but the point is that I can honour US veterans and you can honour British, Australian, Canadian, Indian, New Zealand or whoever it might be.

That's what I mean about the symbolism. It's supposed to represent them, not be placed above them. If you forget the meaning of it then all you're left with is the rather idiotic worship of a piece of cloth.

Nicely said.
 
LHStarAlliance
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:06 am

Well, I thank America so much for free Germany and Europe from the Nazis !

But what America is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is not good for them it´s terrible ...

Konstantin
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 39):
Nicely said.

And yet it could hardly be gainsaid that one could demand both respect for our veterans and for the flag that represents the best of our nation, is that not so?
What's fair is fair.
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
Do you know the source/context of the photo? That photo speaks more than 1,000 words to me.

Judging from the tracks in the street, old style Bank of America sign and the dress of the spectators, I'm guessing San Francisco in the mid 1980's.

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 20):
I stand when the colors are presented, and I show my respect during the anthem and pledge...

and one of the duties of a parent is also to teach pride and respect for the flag in a non-partisan way. Whenever I take the kids to a ball game or such, usually they are on their feet faster than me. And whenever the Canadian national anthem is played the maple leaf flag gets the same respect, as with any country who I happen to be visiting.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 38):
Might I ask how long this has been, because it certainly did not exist to this extent upon the coronation of Elizabeth II, which was widely revered, as I understand.

No, you're quite correct. Probably the 1960s was when you had that real breakdown of "respect" (i.e. subservience), but in truth it had been moving in that direction for oh, about 500 years. Don't forget, this is the nation that first lopped off the head of its King, long before the French had even considered the possibility.

What we now have is actually a rather more healthy state of affairs. As far as the Queen goes, she is respected, but for who she is and what she's done rather than the office she holds. I do have a strong suspicion that deep down, the public hold the Queen in quite a high degree of affection, and respect in the genuine meaning of the word.

And here's the rub: Those upstart rebellious colonists (i.e you Big grin ) are the ones who defer far more than we do nowadays. Who'd have ever put money on that?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
padraighaz
Posts: 404
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 41):
And yet it could hardly be gainsaid that one could demand both respect for our veterans and for the flag that represents the best of our nation, is that not so?

Rather than demanding respect for, I would say they are worthy of respect. And while I have no problem with the premise the flag represents the best of our nation, I do object to the often stated/implied corollary: therefore you need to show public respect or we'll infer nasty things about you.
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:43 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 44):
And while I have no problem with the premise the flag represents the best of our nation, I do object to the often stated/implied corollary: therefore you need to show public respect or we'll infer nasty things about you.

But why else would one not show respect?

The flag is above mere politics, after all. One could show respect for the flag even while disagreeing, with every fiber of one's being, with the current government's policies. If one fails to show such respect, then how could one begrudge others of the logical conclusion?

For the logical conclusion isn't that one only respects the flag quietly, because very little is asked for in showing respect: Only the act of standing. One isn't asked to shout out one's love for the flag, upon penalty of apostasy. If one is able, then why not stand?

As for "silent regard" for the flag alone on these occasions, it may be asked why one must make a show of silence?
What's fair is fair.
 
S12PPL
Posts: 3603
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:26 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:09 am

Like I said...I think it shows disrespect to not stand and give attention to the colors when they are presented. But..I'd also understand someone exercising their freedom to not do so. It'd bother me...But I doubt I'd make a scene. It's their choice, and as such, it isn't my place to tell them they're wrong, even if I feel they are.

At all the high school games I do it's hard sometimes to listen to how bad some kids butcher the anthem. They're trying their best to sing it, but there are times I just give up trying to keep track of octive changes, etc. At a football game on a Friday night a few years ago our white hat was a county sherif. He's retired now, but even he when the anthem was over said "There are dogs all over that were begging her to stop..."
Next Flights: 12/31 AS804 PDX-MCO 2/3 AS19 MCO-SEA QX2545 SEA-PDX
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 40):
But what America is doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is not good for them it´s terrible ...

What is wrong with the Afghan mission, It was approved by the UN and we are only trying to help people who are helpless and have lived with the threat of war for years. It is easy to say something about that mission, but I see from talking to Afghans living in my building that it is working. It is easy to pull up stumps and go on our way , but what do we leave behind the same type of Islamic rule that we got rid of. What about those who have died there for the cause, do we just forget them and say it can't be done? We in the West have to take a stand against this sort of behaviour, had we not stood up in WW2 where would this world be today. I don't mean invading for nothing. I mean supporting people that need our support. We need to help people regain the same rights we have in the West, not always by war, but at the same time we need to stand up for them. We all in the West seem to have forgotten how we gained our rights and we take them for granted every single day of our lives, the people in Afghanistan have the right to the same rights as us. Enough said
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
cumulus
Posts: 1003
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:39 pm

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 1):
Here's a photo I'm sure has been shared over and over. It fits VERY will with this thread.

Having used the web for ten years or so I've seen a lot of eye opening things from Marilyn Monroe in a mortuary to controlling a webcam in Sydney, but that has to be the most moving thing I've seen yet.....simply stunning.
What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:47 am

RE: I Was Humbled Today

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:29 am

Respect for the flag is necessary. I say the pledge eveery morning, I play the National Anthem at every football band, and I always stand and take off my hat when a flag is going by, or when the pledge or National Anthem is being played. It comes from my parents, who taught me respect. Every male in my immediate and most in my extended family have served in the military. I will be in the military. IMO, every male citizen has an obligation to their country to serve.

Quoting Padraighaz (Reply 16):

Thats BS. That kind of disrespect poisons our soceity and our culture today, and it pains me to see people like you say stuff like that.


Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: E2 and 16 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos