747438
Topic Author
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:45 am

Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:54 am

Do we need a new strong force in world politics?
At this time we have the US administration running rough shod over the rest of the world, trying to impose their values on the rest of us.
Surely it's time for a balancing power to keep their attitude in check.
 
Thom@s
Posts: 11674
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2000 2:03 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting 747438 (Thread starter):
Time For A New "Super Power"?

Where do we sign up?

Signed
France
"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
 
IFEMaster
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting 747438 (Thread starter):
Do we need a new strong force in world politics?
At this time we have the US administration running rough shod over the rest of the world, trying to impose their values on the rest of us.
Surely it's time for a balancing power to keep their attitude in check.

Don your Kevlar and gird your loins. It's about to get nasty in here...
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
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RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:58 am

I think it is nearly certain that within the next 50 years there will be another superpower or two on the map. China is the obvious one. Maybe the EU if they can get their stuff together.

"The United States is the world's only remaining superpower, unless you count the Chinese, but at this point, no one can count the Chinese." - "America: The Book" by Jon Stewart et al.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting 747438 (Thread starter):
At this time we have the US administration running rough shod over the rest of the world, trying to impose their values on the rest of us.

I don't agree with this contention at all. If anything, the U.S. is very solicitous of foreign opinion.

However, what new superpower would you like to assume the stage? The EU, perhaps.
What's fair is fair.
 
WellHung
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RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:00 am

Agreed. We would all be better off if Russia, China or North Korea were the dominant power.  sarcastic 
 
747438
Topic Author
Posts: 658
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RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting WellHung (Reply 5):
We would all be better off if Russia, China or North Korea were the dominant power.

The whole point is , that we don't need a dominant power. We need a balance and at the moment, due to the demise of the Soviet Union and the impotency of the EU, there is no balance of power.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:07 am

As soon as the current administration is out, we can start hoping for an American foreign policy that actually deserves the name. The amazing thing with the country is that yes, it does realise its politicians' mistakes and the people votes for a change. It just takes longer than it should sometimes.

Quoting 747438 (Thread starter):
trying to impose their values on the rest of us.

In all honesty, I'd rather have some American values imposed on me than those of e.g. the Sharia.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Klaus
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
I don't agree with this contention at all. If anything, the U.S. is very solicitous of foreign opinion.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

You're really getting ridiculous. You've produced better flame-bait in your heyday, my friend...!  mischievous 


There is no lack of a "super power", there is a decided lack of a "super intelligence"!

Like it or not, the only halfway functioning way into the future is increased cooperation and an increased observance of internationally accepted rules and fundamental values, enforced if necessary by the global community.

Singular power centers invite abuse of power and corruption more than anything else.

The USA have seen their own share of these kinds of consequences (most notably in the past six years, but previously as well), even though they have performed better than most of their predecessors all in all.

Being an absolute ruler usually twists and damages one's character, and it's exactly the same for entire nations as for individuals.

Democracy may be messy and the worst form of government imaginable, but unfortunately all others are even worse...!
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:46 am

I'm quite happy with the current superpower. Last time we had a balance of 2 superpowers I couldn't say what I want, I could not believe what I want .... to make it short I wasn't free at all.
Sure the current government of the last superpower leaves a lot to be desired, but fortunately they are a democracy so the government will change.

Quoting 747438 (Reply 6):
The whole point is , that we don't need a dominant power. We need a balance and at the moment, due to the demise of the Soviet Union and the impotency of the EU, there is no balance of power.

As we have seen a balance doesn't protect the world from abuse of power at all. It's just that they tend to agree to divide the world into fields of interest in which they can act as the want. Therefore a balance is futile.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 7):
In all honesty, I'd rather have some American values imposed on me than those of e.g. the Sharia.

Spot on!

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):

Like it or not, the only halfway functioning way into the future is increased cooperation and an increased observance of internationally accepted rules and fundamental values, enforced if necessary by the global community.

I don't see it happening, but it would be the best solution.

pelican
 
747438
Topic Author
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:45 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):
.... to make it short I wasn't free at all.

You're free now?
I don't think so
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting 747438 (Reply 10):
You're free now?

Sure I'm. I can say what I want without fearing prison, I can believe in what I want without risking prison, I can travel around, I can work in the job I want. That's freedom I would not have if we still had the balance of superpowers.

pelican
 
IFEMaster
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting 747438 (Reply 10):
You're free now?
I don't think so

Define freedom, then. Can you...

1. Vote?
2. Worship whatever god you please?
3. Say what you want, when you want, where you want?
4. Choose a school?
5. Choose a hospital?
6. Have a say in local and regional laws and issues?
7. Travel around the world?
8. Work in whatever job you desire?
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
Arrow
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RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:22 am

The power has already shifted to Asia. China and India are the superpowers of the very near future. America and Europe can try to fight it if they want, but it will just hasten the slide. European countries have become accustomed to not possessing "superpower" status over the last 50 years. It will be a much harder pill for Americans to swallow because they won't have 50 years to get used to it.

I'm not sure this will be an improvement. US hegemony has become very tiresome since GWB was anointed, but up until then America was always my first choice for top dog. Maybe they can recover it and regain the moral high ground at least. I hope so. But the battle for global supremacy has already been lost to Asia, and that will be much clearer a decade from now.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
LYRFlyer
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:52 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting WellHung (Reply 5):
Agreed. We would all be better off if Russia, China or North Korea were the dominant power.

What's wrong with Russia and China now?? They are both making progress.. It's difficult to predict what it would be like if China becomes a superpower as well, which they probably will within 20 years I think

Sorry couldn't resist:


don't take it seriously, it's kind of a funny video :P

[Edited 2007-02-13 23:42:06]
Suck, squeeze, bang, blow.
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
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RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 14):
What's wrong with Russia and China now?? They are both making progress..

The problem is they still have a long way to go.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 14):

Sorry couldn't resist:

Ah I remember that song played at studenterhuset... Big grin

pelican
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
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RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:55 am

Quoting 747438 (Thread starter):
At this time we have the US administration running rough shod over the rest of the world, trying to impose their values on the rest of us.

The US is "imposing" our values over the rest of the world? I think not. Why do we respect the right to religion when your country does not. We do not impose our laws on no one but our own citizens. We do not burn embassies when our leaders are burned in effigies. What a load of feces.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
CroCop
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:42 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting 747438 (Thread starter):
Do we need a new strong force in world politics?
At this time we have the US administration running rough shod over the rest of the world, trying to impose their values on the rest of us.
Surely it's time for a balancing power to keep their attitude in check.

What a joke, what are you implying? Their will NEVER be a super power from the middle East, they cant keep their region in check as it is.
The Chinese will be a dominant player, but the US will be strong for many years.
I know I harp on this topic a bit much, but liberals are ruining the US. People like Pelosi, the Clinton's, Kerry, Al Gore and his global warming  Yeah sure This country needs to silence these turds and get on with life. When does freedom of speech stop being freedom of speech? it doesn't. They can undermine anything, these burn outs dont understand, and it becomes an uphill battle the rest of the way.
Biblically the US wont stay a super power, or we will fight within so bad we wont survive, sound familiar?

Quoting WellHung (Reply 5):
Agreed. We would all be better off if Russia, China or North Korea were the dominant power.

That was funny.
Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic
 
LYRFlyer
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:52 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:13 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 15):
The problem is they still have a long way to go.

True.. But it's going in the right direction I think..

Quoting Pelican (Reply 15):
Ah I remember that song played at studenterhuset..

Yeah I remember it from a roadtrip I went on last year with some friends. The lyric to that song is just so awesome!

Rammstein rules!! :P

[Edited 2007-02-14 00:16:44]
Suck, squeeze, bang, blow.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:23 pm

Quoting CroCop (Reply 17):
This country needs to silence these turds and get on with life.

Gorgeous display of the values I would not like imposed on me!  Silly
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:47 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
The power has already shifted to Asia. China and India are the superpowers of the very near future. America and Europe can try to fight it if they want, but it will just hasten the slide. European countries have become accustomed to not possessing "superpower" status over the last 50 years. It will be a much harder pill for Americans to swallow because they won't have 50 years to get used to it.

Indeed. The adjustment might happen fairly abruptly due to America's increasingly precarious fiscal position
and leverage by Asian nations over the US in that area.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 19):
Gorgeous display of the values I would not like imposed on me!

I think the USA need to have american values (re-)imposed on themselves first of all right now...
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:54 pm

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 20):
Indeed. The adjustment might happen fairly abruptly due to America's increasingly precarious fiscal position and leverage by Asian nations over the US in that area.

In the eighties many people thought that Japan would rule the world within a few years... turned out to be a tiny little bit exaggerated...


There is no denying of the progress in Asia, but they're currently trying to outrun a bunch of pretty severe problems they still have around, so it is quite likely that their current streak of good luck will be finite as well, with setbacks and lots of hard work until they stabilize their so far often fragile and superficial successes...

We tend to overestimate the depth of what's behind the glitzy facades; Sustained development is quite a bit harder to achieve than a roaring boom chased by subsequent collapse...
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:34 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
Sustained development is quite a bit harder to achieve than a roaring boom chased by subsequent collapse...

You mean things like social security (pensions, healthcare etc.) and a less unequal distribution of wealth? Now, now... you're down the pinko-commie leftist path again!  Wink
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
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RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:43 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 23):
You mean things like social security (pensions, healthcare etc.) and a less unequal distribution of wealth? Now, now... you're down the pinko-commie leftist path again!

Ain't I always...?  mischievous   devil 
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
Ain't I always...?

Watch Russia and China guys. That's all I have to say
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting PanAmOldDC8 (Reply 25):
Watch Russia and China guys.

Sure - but underestimating their difficulties would be as shortsighted as underestimating our own!

Russia is more a political and potentially military threat than an economical one, I'd say (they're even damaging their own economy for political manoeuvering); And China is a different case again.
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:32 pm

Russia is a kleptocracy that is headed nowhere good.

China might seem to be emerging as an economic powerhouse, yet is in a precarious position. China is going to un-breed itself out of existence in the next couple of generation cycles.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
PanAmOldDC8
Posts: 934
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:25 pm

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Sure - but underestimating their difficulties would be as shortsighted as underestimating our own!

I agree, but I watched a very interesting program on BBC a few days ago, in which the interviewer was asking several people questions about Russia and the one answer that came up the most was that Russia's economy was on the rebound and that in 5 years they would be capable of resuming their world learership. Just I thought I would mention this
Barbados, CWC soon, can't wait
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting 747438 (Thread starter):
Surely it's time for a balancing power to keep their attitude in check.

Absolutely. Who is going to step up? The EU? Mercosur? Russia? China?

As soon as someone, anyone wants the job they can have it. First job, send people into Chad and Darfur.

But until the rest of the world is willing to take a leadership role around the world that involve having to use force at times, then all this is is idle talk.

As I recently said, the EU sat around and allowed ethnic cleansing to go on within a day's drive of most of it's capitals for almost 10 years without doing anything to stop it. Only when the US decided to act in Europe's backyard did they get on board. If they are unwilling to use force to stop genocide within their own region, then they'll never use force no matter how justified the action.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
DrDeke
Posts: 805
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:13 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
I don't agree with this contention at all. If anything, the U.S. is very solicitous of foreign opinion.

Oh, yeah, sure. The U.S. really paid attention to foreign opinion on our warrantless invasion of Iraq...



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 16):
The US is "imposing" our values over the rest of the world? I think not.

Well, we have taken over (or attempted to take over) two countries in the last 7 years...



Quoting CroCop (Reply 17):
This country needs to silence these turds and get on with life.

Sure, bigtime! "Silencing" people is a great idea in a free society... Sheesh!



Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
I think the USA need to have american values (re-)imposed on themselves first of all right now...

 checkmark !!

Wouldn't that be nice?


-DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
But until the rest of the world is willing to take a leadership role around the world that involve having to use force at times, then all this is is idle talk.

The primitive view of what that "job" entails as implemented by the Bush administration has just proven a complete disaster and thus exposed the fundamental weakness of relying on an unrestrained superpower for leadership.

It has been tried and failed, so there's no more excuse for sabotaging a cooperative approach.

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
As I recently said, the EU sat around and allowed ethnic cleansing to go on within a day's drive of most of it's capitals for almost 10 years without doing anything to stop it.

That is oversimplified to the point of being false. But one would need to actually have a bit of insight into what was happening back then.  Yeah sure
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
The primitive view of what that "job" entails as implemented by the Bush administration has just proven a complete disaster and thus exposed the fundamental weakness of relying on an unrestrained superpower for leadership.

It has been tried and failed, so there's no more excuse for sabotaging a cooperative approach.

Is there never a time for when force should be used? Sometimes talk can't resolve every problem.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
That is oversimplified to the point of being false.

What's false? Did the EU or its member states not know what was going on? Did they not consider it genocide? Was it not in their backyard? You're "response" is an easy way to divert attention without having to substantively address the matter.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
But one would need to actually have a bit of insight into what was happening back then.

So go ahead and explain it to me.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 32):
Is there never a time for when force should be used?

Did you forget about Afghanistan already? There isn't much disagreement on the need to use force there, is it?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 33):
Did you forget about Afghanistan already? There isn't much disagreement on the need to use force there, is it?

No. But who led the way, the US or the EU? I assure you that the US would have gone in without NATO but do you think the converse is true?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 34):
No. But who led the way, the US or the EU? I assure you that the US would have gone in without NATO but do you think the converse is true?

Is it really the point whether "the US would have done it alone"? The thing is you didn't need to since we went along without reluctance. Whether or not the opposite would have happened is sort of out there - it was mainly the US that was attacked on 9/11, only the US if one doesn't agree with the "attack on the free world" theory.

It's true that the EU is unable to lead large-scale military missions all on its own, and it's all too logical as well. With the disagreements in foreign policy between the EU member nations, that sort of adventure would be destined to fail. It's also a good thing the traditional colonial powers stopped messing around with the rest of the world for a change - France got burnt badly in Vietnam, the British didn't do much good to Gandhi, the Germans... well, fortunately lost their colonies after WW1 and the Spanish and Portuguese didn't really go to Latin America for selling make-up either. In all honesty, I'm damn glad we Europeans are unable to project military force at will.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting 747438 (Thread starter):
Do we need a new strong force in world politics?

As long as the new force values democracy, human rights & the rule of law, yes.

We do not need another USSR.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
fundamental values,

The EU and America share fundamental values, and it is always good to have checks and balances on any form of power, so the EU would seem the likely candidate to balance America.

However, I doubt the EU will summon the political will to match the US in force projection capability, when there are social programs and new-EU-entrant issues to spend money on, but we will see.

India and China have a long way to go and serious domestic issues to solve before their designation of Superpower can and should become reality.

In the meantime, if the rest of the world wants to check US power when it gets too extreme, there is nothing stopping them from banding together and imposing serious restraints on America economically, which would have a big effect. But, again, the political will simply is not there.

Cairo
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 35):
The thing is you didn't need to since we went along without reluctance.

And there is the answer to the question. The EU will never lead only follow. A "superpower" can't hide behind someone else's skirt, they are the skirt other people hide behind.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
CroCop
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:42 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 30):
Quoting CroCop (Reply 17):
This country needs to silence these turds and get on with life.

Sure, bigtime! "Silencing" people is a great idea in a free society... Sheesh!

They need to have self restraint. They act like a truck load of monkeys and it only hurts the big picture. We will always have your tree hugger mentality, your hippy per say, but WE ALL need to learn self restraint, and especially in a time of War. There comes a time when their so called freedom of speech is causing more harm than good, that time is now.


So in short, I dont believe we should live in a country that wont let you speak your mind, but for heavens sake use the noodle in your noggin and keep it closed in these times of war. Dont undermine the President like you have, had these people kept it closed we could very well have seen different results this far.
Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 37):
The EU will never lead only follow.

"What if"s are nothing but speculation, especially in international politics. And who led the EU into Congo to protect the elections, then, if it wasn't our politicians? The mission was hardly a masterpiece, but it didn't have much to do with the US either.

Please change your black-and-white opinion on this. Bush's idea of the US as the "world police" has failed, mainly because he thought all you needed to do to fight crime was punsh the criminals (vastly oversimplified). Crime prevention is one of his weakest points and it is the core issue on that the EU and the US need to work together. Political fighting over who performed the best won't get anyone any farther.

Quoting CroCop (Reply 38):
WE ALL need to learn self restraint

True, starting with President Bush himself.

Quoting CroCop (Reply 38):
Dont undermine the President like you have, had these people kept it closed we could very well have seen different results this far.

In other words: "Shut up and follow!" That is very, very dangerous.

[Edited 2007-02-14 20:49:45]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 39):
Please change your black-and-white opinion on this.

Look, I like Europe and I recognize that Europe has been a good friend to the US (as I believe the US has been to Europe). But I think that it's not a matter of debate that the EU will not use military force against anyone but the weakest opponents (and even then only after great debate) no matter how compelling the cause is. Until they do, they will not be considered a superpower.

You seem to be debating the "why" this is. I'm just pointing out that it exists.

It should be a matter of great shame that ethnic cleansing went on for so long and to such an extent within a day's drive of major European capitals.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
CroCop
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:42 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 39):
Quoting CroCop (Reply 38):
WE ALL need to learn self restraint

True, starting with President Bush himself.

Explain to me how Bush need to have self restraint. thanks

Quoting Aloges (Reply 39):
Quoting CroCop (Reply 38):
Dont undermine the President like you have, had these people kept it closed we could very well have seen different results this far.

In other words: "Shut up and follow!" That is very, very dangerous.

No another words, your elected officials voted for War along with the President, you elected them to speak for you, so yes shut up. You either get them out of office, or you accept their decisions that best suit their followers.
Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic
 
rammstein
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:05 pm

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:37 am

Quoting CroCop (Reply 41):
No another words, your elected officials voted for War along with the President, you elected them to speak for you, so yes shut up.

You realise that this is exactly what happened in Germany from 1933 until to WWII?

Aloges' trapdoor worked quite well with you...  Smile
He who wishes to be rich in a day will be hanged in a day. --Leonardo Da Vinci
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
I recognize that Europe has been a good friend to the US (as I believe the US has been to Europe).

 checkmark  It's been one of the longest-standing partnerships in history, too, despite all the hardships it has been put through from either side.

Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
But I think that it's not a matter of debate that the EU will not use military force against anyone

True to an extent - Europeans seem much quicker than Americans to condemn war, which is very understandable considering our past. We see it as the greatest of evils, generally, something that you must not be involved in due to your own decisions.

Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
anyone but the weakest opponents

I have a problem with that - it's true we don't get engaged in Iraq-like messes very often, thank God, but in e.g. Vietnam France and the US lost to the same enemy.

Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
It should be a matter of great shame that ethnic cleansing went on for so long and to such an extent within a day's drive of major European capitals.

That is true. There was even less of a common EU foreign policy back when that happened, so in the not impossible event of similar things happening again, we can hope for a different outcome.

Quoting CroCop (Reply 41):
Explain to me how Bush need to have self restraint. thanks

By not invading Iraq, not alienating half of NATO and earlier in his life not being a drunk and not going AWOL from the.

Quoting CroCop (Reply 41):
No another words, your elected officials voted for War along with the President, you elected them to speak for you, so yes shut up. You either get them out of office, or you accept their decisions that best suit their followers.

 redflag  First of all, my elected officials voted against the war. Second, roughly half of the voting public in the US voted against Bush and for Gore in 2000, so even by your twisted logic they have an excellent point protesting against the man. Third, dissent is vital in any democracy. Fourth, an administration that was 100% unwilling to accept any differing opinion on the war in Iraq cannot expect to be widely accepted. Fifth, how do you get a government out of office without an impeachment (or similar) or a coup d'état?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting Rammstein (Reply 42):
Aloges' trapdoor worked quite well with you...

What trapdoor?  innocent 
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
CroCop
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:42 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
Quoting CroCop (Reply 41):
Explain to me how Bush need to have self restraint. thanks

By not invading Iraq, not alienating half of NATO and earlier in his life not being a drunk and not going AWOL from the.

Nato? the U.N.? he went AWOL? he drank? Are you kidding me? then NO ONE WOULD EVER LIVE UP TO YOUR STANDARDS! you have got to be kidding me? Man, I hope Farmer Brown never finds out what I did with his daughter.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
roughly half of the voting public in the US voted against Bush and for Gore in 2000

And you cant let it go? it is obvious from YOUR twisted points that you live in the past. You have to build a bridge and get over it.
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Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
Fifth, how do you get a government out of office without an impeachment (or similar) or a coup d'état?

You vote out your ELECTED officials. Just because you dont like Bush doesn't mean the rest of us dont. He wont be impeached like your boy Bubba.

STOP LIVING IN THE PAST!
Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting CroCop (Reply 45):
the U.N.?

Well, as you brought it up - he didn't are to maintain friendships their either.

Quoting CroCop (Reply 45):
then NO ONE WOULD EVER LIVE UP TO YOUR STANDARDS!

Oh please. Millions, if not billions of people do. They don't expect their friends to be servile, they haven't been alcoholics and they haven't totally forgot about their duties in the military or the company they work at, which going AWOL constitutes.

Quoting CroCop (Reply 45):
And you cant let it go? it is obvious from YOUR twisted points that you live in the past. You have to build a bridge and get over it.

I said roughly. 49.5% as an example would be roughly the half. I didn't say anything about the election debacle, but thanks for your remote online psychoanalysis - should I ever go to a psychiatrist, I will mention your diagnosis and tell him that I obviously live in the past. Definitely.

Quoting CroCop (Reply 45):
Just because you dont like Bush doesn't mean the rest of us dont.

Hmmm... what's his approval rating again?  scratchchin 

Quoting CroCop (Reply 45):
He wont be impeached like your boy Bubba.

I did not have any sort of relations with that ex-President!  Wink

Quoting CroCop (Reply 45):
STOP LIVING IN THE PAST!

 rotfl  Do you have any idea how utterly hilarious you are?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
galapagapop
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:15 pm

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 46):
Hmmm... what's his approval rating again? scratchchin

TO be fair, what is the depth to which those approving are looking into?

Anyway why should he care what they think? Many politicains made moves very unpopular with the general public, Truman commited political suicide to get rid of McArthur, and in hindsight it looked to be a good move, especially now that we better know the effects of radiation  Wink . What about Ford, a more recent mention, and his political suicide of pardoning Nixon? Anyone with a brain looking back can tell ya America would never have made any which way forward if we were all caught up in Nixon's sins, whether or not America approved.

Some people need to learn to be a little less short-sighted. People really just need to understand our government is hardly run by one man, but by condeming him, your indirectly condeming all those in Congress, the House, and the Senate who actually run this country.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):
Quoting 747438 (Thread starter):At this time we have the US administration running rough shod over the rest of the world, trying to impose their values on the rest of us.
I don't agree with this contention at all. If anything, the U.S. is very solicitous of foreign opinion.

He can't possibly be serious, can he?

Quoting 747438 (Reply 6):
The whole point is , that we don't need a dominant power. We need a balance and at the moment, due to the demise of the Soviet Union and the impotency of the EU, there is no balance of power.

I would agree that a balance is needed.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 4):I don't agree with this contention at all. If anything, the U.S. is very solicitous of foreign opinion. ÊÊÊÊ ÊÊ

You're really getting ridiculous. You've produced better flame-bait in your heyday, my friend...!

The sad thing is, I'll bet he really believes it.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
The power has already shifted to Asia. China and India are the superpowers of the very near future. America and Europe can try to fight it if they want, but it will just hasten the slide. European countries have become accustomed to not possessing "superpower" status over the last 50 years.

A possible  checkmark . China has a huge reservoir of domestic discontent to deal with, and India is consumed with Pakistan.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
Maybe they can recover it and regain the moral high ground at least. I hope so. But the battle for global supremacy has already been lost to Asia, and that will be much clearer a decade from now

Unless we wise up and learn how to balance our national checkbook, we're toast.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
It will be a much harder pill for Americans to swallow because they won't have 50 years to get used to it.

Only for the right wing. We go along just fine during our first 150 years of existence not being the top dog. Given the strong isolationist undercurrent in the US, I don't think it would all that bitter of a pill.

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
As soon as someone, anyone wants the job they can have it. First job, send people into Chad and Darfur.But until the rest of the world is willing to take a leadership role around the world that involve having to use force at times, then all this is is idle talk.

Agree. The main reason we are the superpower is that no one has stepped up to take on the task.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
Quoting Pope (Reply 29):But until the rest of the world is willing to take a leadership role around the world that involve having to use force at times, then all this is is idle talk.The primitive view of what that "job" entails as implemented by the Bush administration has just proven a complete disaster and thus exposed the fundamental weakness of relying on an unrestrained superpower for leadership.

And the EU response to the Balkans was a masterful example of action.  sarcastic  While we might be currently screwing up Iraq, the EU stood by while the Balkans burned.

I agree that it is not in the best interests of all of us to have a single unrestrained superpower. But since no one else is willing to belly up to the bar, we have the current situation.

Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
Look, I like Europe and I recognize that Europe has been a good friend to the US (as I believe the US has been to Europe). But I think that it's not a matter of debate that the EU will not use military force against anyone but the weakest opponents (and even then only after great debate) no matter how compelling the cause is. Until they do, they will not be considered a superpower.

While I understand the historical reasons for it, Germany and Japan need to abandon their pacifistic approach to the extension of military power outside their respective countries.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 pm

RE: Time For A New "Super Power"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:44 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
Second, roughly half of the voting public in the US voted against Bush and for Gore in 2000, so even by your twisted logic they have an excellent point protesting against the man.

In 1992, almost 45 million voted for Bill Clinton, over 58 million voted against him.... Regardless of who you voted for, in the US you have the absolute right to protest against the government... It's the American way, always has been...

Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
Fifth, how do you get a government out of office without an impeachment (or similar) or a coup d'état?

Vote them out??? Maybe???
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

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