LYRFlyer
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What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:58 pm

Interesting articles regarding Apple's politics when it comes to preserving mother nature:

http://www.macworld.co.uk/mac/news/i...m?newsid=17220&pagtype=allchandate

"The group has been vociferous in its criticism of the company, claiming Apple still uses hazardous substances in its products — substances other companies in the technology sector are abandoning.

Chemicals such as toxic flame retardants and polyvinyl chloride are used in Apple products. When these devices reach end of life they are disassembled, usually in developing countries. This process threatens the environment and the people who scour the dumping grounds, says Greenpeace. "

http://media.www.fairfieldmirror.com...MIIHost=media.collegepublisher.com

I found this website quite funny:
http://www.greenmyapple.org/

"Apple products - sleek looks, amazing design, meticulous attention to detail. So what's with the toxic chemicals inside, short life spans and allowing their products to be dumped in Asia?"

 Silly
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jamesbuk
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:10 am

So much for Apples being healthy for you  Wink.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Thread starter):
When these devices reach end of life they are disassembled, usually in developing countries. This process threatens the environment and the people who scour the dumping grounds, says Greenpeace. "

So if im reading that right, people in poor countries are getting hurt when they are scouring the dumps for things? I think that maybe Apple should review what there doing here before they damage their reputation.

Rgds --James--
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LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:08 pm

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 1):
So if im reading that right, people in poor countries are getting hurt when they are scouring the dumps for things? I think that maybe Apple should review what there doing here before they damage their reputation.

Agreed! Are the same materials used in computers from other manufacturers?
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Klaus
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:59 am

In fact things are not nearly as simple.

While Greenpeace certainly serves an important role in general, they have worked quite sloppily with their highly publicized "eco-grading" of various manufacturers.

They drew their criteria for grading the manufacturers from a very superficial examination of those manufacturer's press releases under complete negligence of what the respective manufacturers actually do (or don't) to reduce their respective ecological footprint.

I recommend a closer look into a series of articles here:

Top Secret: Greenpeace Report Misleading and Incompetent

Greenpeace Apologizes For Apple Stink

Greenpeace Lies About Apple
 
WSOY
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:40 am

I

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):

I recommend a closer look into a series of articles here:

Top Secret: Greenpeace Report Misleading and Incompetent

Greenpeace Apologizes For Apple Stink

Greenpeace Lies About Apple

Ok, I read most of what this person writes above. Do you really like it when he says:

"Name of the Game
Greenpeace wants your money, and it's ready to say anything that will get you to hand it over."


I gather you have more or less severed your links with Greenpeace? They blamed Apple, ok, but aren't you a bit too harsh on them now?
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WellHung
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
Top Secret: Greenpeace Report Misleading and Incompetent

Greenpeace Apologizes For Apple Stink

Greenpeace Lies About Apple

So is that where you get your bias from, or is it so ingrained now that you just use that site for validation?
 
Klaus
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting WellHung (Reply 5):
So is that where you get your bias from, or is it so ingrained now that you just use that site for validation?

Well, you could actually read the articles to check for actual arguments, but maybe that's asking too much...  Yeah sure
 
WSOY
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
Well, you could actually read the articles to check for actual arguments, but maybe that's asking too much...

Klaus, this "read again, you dumkopf" argument of yours is a bit stale. Many of us know how to read and do read quickly. The person you ask us to read closer says:
"Greenpeace wants your money, and it's ready to say anything that will get you to hand it over."
You might be aware this is one of the key criticism many right-wingers throw at Greenpeace, and it's a bit odd to see you hanging out with them.
But I trust this one was a honest "accident-at-work" -- you just did not read the text thoroughly.

[Edited 2007-02-15 22:03:55]
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WellHung
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
Well, you could actually read the articles to check for actual arguments, but maybe that's asking too much... Yeah sure

Aww... Apple fanboy gets called out and doesn't like it.

I read through the blogs (not every word of them) and get the vibe of a bitter computer geek with an unjustified elitist complex. This may sound familiar to you, hence my inqiry. Perhaps if he could lay out his arguments without an obvious bias for anything and everything Apple, it could be taken more seriously. It reminds me of Fox News - the only people who watch (read) it are the brainwashed who believe every word and the folks who see it as so ridiculously biased (and this guy is their version of Hannity), it serves no purpose other than entertainment. You and the blog fit this to a T.

I'm no big fan of Greenpeace, but if you'd like to provide some actual unbiased rescources that aren't written by your clones, be my guest.

[Edited 2007-02-15 22:01:34]
 
LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:00 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
Top Secret: Greenpeace Report Misleading and Incompetent

Greenpeace Apologizes For Apple Stink

Greenpeace Lies About Apple

lol they're all 3 from the same (unknown) source.. care to find some other credible source?
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Klaus
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:04 am

If neither of you have anything to say about the actual issues, there's little need to proceed any further, is there?  Yeah sure
 
dl021
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:07 am

What I want to know, since I know that Klaus defends Apple to the death, is why aren't the NGOs and individuals bitching at Apple not picketing in the countries that allow the dumping?

These nations are responsible for protecting themselves....right? Why not spend time going after them?

Is Greenpeace et al under the impression that they can't understand the dangers? Do they think that these countries are populated by people too stupid to explain this to? Or are they just protesting where it's easiest or most glamorous?

It's one thing to protest from a rubber boat when you have a cabin on a vessel that night, or at some western site where they have dorms or hotels....its another to protest someplace where they lock you up and throw the keys away.....

chickens....
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LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:13 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
If neither of you have anything to say about the actual issues, there's little need to proceed any further, is there?

We would have something to say if you posted links to various sources Otherwise it is hard to take the articles you linked us to seriously

[Edited 2007-02-16 00:14:00]
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Klaus
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 12):
We would have something to say if you posted links to various sources Otherwise it is hard to take the articles you linked us to seriously

Especially as it would require you to actually read what they have to say...  Yeah sure
 
MDorBust
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:20 am

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 1):
So if im reading that right, people in poor countries are getting hurt when they are scouring the dumps for things? I think that maybe Apple should review what there doing here before they damage their reputation.

Wait... We are supposed to care when a bunch of glorified dumpster divers get hurt?

I'm sorry, if you get the Nasty & Creepies while tooling through trash the only thing I'm going to say is, "DUH".

Oh BTW:

Quoting LYRFlyer (Thread starter):
Chemicals such as toxic flame retardants and polyvinyl chloride are used in Apple products

PVC. Don't look under your sink, it's everywhere. Don't peek in your closet, the PVC is in there too. I bet some has even snuck into your wallet.

[Edited 2007-02-16 00:20:59]
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LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):

Especially as it would require you to actually read what they have to say...

Oh you've already begun with the personal attacks on such an early stage in the thread? That's a new record for you  Wink
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LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:33 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 14):
PVC. Don't look under your sink, it's everywhere. Don't peek in your closet, the PVC is in there too. I bet some has even snuck into your wallet.

Yes? What about the:

Quoting LYRFlyer (Thread starter):
Chemicals such as toxic flame retardants and polyvinyl chloride are used in Apple products.

?  Smile
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Klaus
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 15):
Oh you've already begun with the personal attacks on such an early stage in the thread? That's a new record for you

If you perceive the request to actually address the issues this thread is supposed to be about as a "personal attack" that's saying a thing or two, but not so much about me, I'd say.
 
LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:38 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):

If you perceive the request to actually address the issues this thread is supposed to be about as a "personal attack" that's saying a thing or two, but not so much about me, I'd say.

Haha i'm not even going to reply to that comment  Silly You know you're far out, right?  Wink

btw where's your "sunny" smiley?  Smile
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MDorBust
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:38 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 16):
Yes? What about the:

BFR's are standard in electronics. Move along, nothing to see.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:42 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 19):

BFR's are standard in electronics. Move along, nothing to see.

Okay, so if I understand what you're saying right, you're saying that two wrongs make a right? So now we can just sit back and relax because it's the norm no matter how wrong it is?

We'll also just sit back and relax when our children are playing with toys full of PVC, because afterall, toys with PVC is more or less a standard thing today, so what the heck...  Wink

[Edited 2007-02-16 00:43:51]
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MDorBust
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:47 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 20):
So now we can just sit back and relax because it's the norm no matter how wrong it is?

No. I'm saying that Apple is using industry standard materials in the manufacture of the I-pod. If greenfarce wants to attack the whole electronics industry (and many non-electronics industries) then feel free to have at. Stop singling out Apple like they are some evil monster bucking a planet saving movement by the rest of the industry. Why doesn't greenfarce just come out and say what they really want? A planet without I-pods, home computers, cellphones, microwave ovens, cars, televisions or indoor plumbing.

Apple should really give them something to complain about and use loose fill asbestos as a flame retardant.

Doesn't greenfarce have a whaling ship to ram or something?

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 20):
We'll also just sit back and relax when our children are playing with toys full of PVC, because afterall, toys with PVC is more or less a standard thing today, so what the heck...

Umm, yeah. Most toys do have PVC in them these days. Nothing new, move along.

[Edited 2007-02-16 00:49:10]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:53 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 21):
Stop singling out Apple like they are some evil monster bucking a planet saving movement by the rest of the industry.

There ARE companies that are working hard to produce goods without the use of toxic materials.

Also, they have to start somewhere.. I don't think it would help if Greenpeace told every company to be 'greener' at once.. it has more impact when they single out 1 company at a time.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 21):

Umm, yeah. Most toys do have PVC in them these days. Nothing new, move along.

duuuhhhh .. I feel like i'm talking to a wall here I rest my case

Have fun trying to tell your kids why they cant have kids themselves someday when they get older

[Edited 2007-02-16 00:55:46]
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WellHung
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 10):
If neither of you have anything to say about the actual issues, there's little need to proceed any further, is there? Yeah sure

What actual issues? That Apple isn't responsible with their waste? That's the only one I see. Everything else is just a  hissyfit  by some Klaus wannabe. It's funny none of this shows up at any legit news source, only some fanboy's blog. You simply are incapable of acknowledging Apple's mistakes, evidenced by the fact that you can only find one man's angry ramblings to back up your 'point'. Again, feel free to post legitimate sources and we'll feel free to debate the 'issues'. Otherwise, it's best to scurry back to blogdom fantasyland where all is right with Apple.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
that's saying a thing or two, but not so much about me, I'd say.

If all you can do is point to the links and cry the same tired line about having to read when someone simply asks for a legit source, well, that does say a lot about you.  yes 
 
MDorBust
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 22):
There ARE companies that are working hard to produce goods without the use of toxic materials.

Such as: Natural Zing

I think I'll keep my Apple stock thank you.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 22):
duuuhhhh .. I feel like i'm talking to a wall here I rest my case

If you know that the use of PVC is nothing new, then why the next statement?

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 22):
Have fun trying to tell your kids why they cant have kids themselves someday when they get older

PVC has been in widespread use since 1926. Your fear mongering gets you no where.

Back to the other point. If you knew that PVC was nothing new, and you aren't fear mongering with your children claim... wouldn't that mean that there would have been severe reproductive disabilities since 1926 and that it would be highly unlikely that any future generations would have enounter unknown issues since the population would already be saturated with the problem?

In short, wouldn't PVC have stopped human reporduction already?

Your TrollFu is weak.
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LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:15 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 24):

Such as: Natural Zing

and lots and lots of other companies being a good example

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 24):
If you know that the use of PVC is nothing new, then why the next statement?

What statement? You're telling me and everyone else to move on as PVC is a normal thing to put in toys.. lol thats the dumbest comment i've read for quite some time. Sorry to say it.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 24):
PVC has been in widespread use since 1926. Your fear mongering gets you no where.

Oh wow! So when is its next birthday? You sure learned how to use wikipedia well, haven't you? There are laws against the usage of PVC in toys in certain countries such as in my country. Damn what a great country I live in

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 24):

In short, wouldn't PVC have stopped human reporduction already?

Stopped? That's a very dramatic word.. i'd say that it has slowed it down a bit already and will continue to do so unless we do something about it.

Ok this time I really will rest my case

[Edited 2007-02-16 01:18:21]
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MDorBust
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 25):
You're telling me and everyone else to move on as PVC is a normal thing to put in toys..

It makes me even wonder if you know what PVC is or if you're just fear mongering with no clue.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 25):
lol thats the dumbest comment i've read for quite some time. Sorry to say it.

Read this and begone troll.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 25):
There are laws against the usage of PVC in toys in certain countries such as in my country.

No, there is a ban against the use of Phthalates in PVC toys in your country. Not against the use of PVC in toys.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 25):
Stopped? That's a very dramatic word.. i'd say that it has slowed it down a bit already and will continue to do so unless we do something about it.

You can of course provide scientific evidence to back up your claim... right?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 26):

I was not going to bother but you're kind of forcing me to reply  Wink

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 26):
Read this and begone troll.

How long did it take you to dig up that link?  Wink


http://www.besafenet.com/pvc/about.htm

http://www.toxicslink.org/mediapr-view.php?pressrelnum=36

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/514242.stm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 26):
No, there is a ban against the use of Phthalates in PVC toys in your country. Not against the use of PVC in toys.

And cadmium:
http://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/pvc/comments_da.pdf

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 26):

You can of course provide scientific evidence to back up your claim... right?

Of course:
As linked above:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/514242.stm
"But there are fears they could be linked to cancer, liver problems and infertility."
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LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:04 am

Some other links:

http://www.chem-tox.com/infertility/

"Chemicals found to mimic human estrogens.

A proper balance of natural estrogens in the body is essential for reproductive success. However, reports have been suggesting that environmental estrogens (chemicals which "mimic" our natural estrogens) are creating infertility problems by confusing the body's estrogen receptors. Some pesticides have already been shown to be environmental estrogens. New research shows that more chemicals are being found to be environmental estrogens including the food additives butylated hydroxyanisole (BHA) Other chemicals found to be somewhat estrogenic include, PVC plastics."

http://www.healthybuilding.net/pvc/terms.html

"PHTHALATE - plasticizers, which are known carcinogens in laboratory animals, and are moderately bioaccumulative and moderately persistent in the environment. Phthalates have been known to damage the reproductive system, causing infertility, testicular damage, reduced sperm count, suppressed ovulation, and abnormal development and function of the testes and male reproductive tract in laboratory animals."

"FACT: PVC accounts for about 90% of total phthalate consumption."


Maybe you too should look at sources other than wikipedia


Oh and uh.. good luck to your kids!  Smile

[Edited 2007-02-16 02:06:09]
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MDorBust
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:28 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 27):
How long did it take you to dig up that link?

Why? Are you afraid that your version of google is slower than mine?

Now, let's read your articles shall we?

Article 1:

" Our bodies are contaminated with poisonous chemicals released during the PVC lifecycle, such as mercury, dioxins, and phthalates"

Mercury: Outright lie. There is no Mercury in PVC
Phthalates: An additive to PVC. Not PVC itself.
Dioxins: Only when burned. Set any product on fire and it releases harmful smoke.

Pure fear mongering

Article 2:

"Dangerous levels of lead and cadmium have been found in PVC and soft toys being sold in markets under a scientific study by Toxics Link, an environmental non-governmental organisation, indicating that children are being exposed to severe health hazards caused by these metals ranging from liver damage to disruption in mental growth. "

Lead and Cadmium: Also not a part of PVC.

Also, pure fear mongering.

Article 3:

"Many of the toys contain phthalates - chemicals which make PVC pliable. "

Those damn Phthalates again... still an additive. Still not PVC.

Let's read what all three articles have to say about the actual known dangers of PVC

Quote:
But there are fears they could be linked to cancer, liver problems and infertility.

may pose irreversible life-long health threats

a phthalate that is a suspected carcinogen

Ah, suspected... feared... may pose....

Hmm..

Still looking for a known danger.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 27):
And cadmium:

Were you trying to say that Cadmium still isn't part of PVC? Because, Cadmium isn't part of PVC.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 28):
Other chemicals found to be somewhat estrogenic include, PVC plastics."

Soy has also been found to mimic estrogen. Your point is?

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 28):
PHTHALATE - plasticizers,...

You are really hoping that this will stop being an additive someday and become part of PVC aren't you?

And for the grand stupid of them all...

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 27):
But there are fears they could be linked to cancer, liver problems and infertility."

This?!

This is your scientific evidence?

"fears"

Fears?

So no, there is no scientific evidence. There are only, "fears"
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:35 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):
Why? Are you afraid that your version of google is slower than mine?

No, im just convinced that you have an incredible amount of luck

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):
" Our bodies are contaminated with poisonous chemicals released during the PVC lifecycle, such as mercury, dioxins, and phthalates"



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):
"Dangerous levels of lead and cadmium have been found in PVC and soft toys being sold in markets under a scientific study by Toxics Link, an environmental non-governmental organisation, indicating that children are being exposed to severe health hazards caused by these metals ranging from liver damage to disruption in mental growth. "



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):
"Many of the toys contain phthalates - chemicals which make PVC pliable. "

Those damn Phthalates again... still an additive. Still not PVC.

Let's read what all three articles have to say about the actual known dangers of PVC

Yes shouldn't we? May I remind you of this:

"FACT: PVC accounts for about 90% of total phthalate consumption."

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):
Ah, suspected... feared... may pose....

Hmm..

Still looking for a known danger.

Then look at the date of that article.. feel free to find one that is 8 years newer with updated knowledge

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):
Were you trying to say that Cadmium still isn't part of PVC? Because, Cadmium isn't part of PVC.

Where did I say that it was?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):

Soy has also been found to mimic estrogen. Your point is?

Care to supply that statement with facts?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):
You are really hoping that this will stop being an additive someday and become part of PVC aren't you?

Not really, but may I remind you of the following for the second time in this post?:
"FACT: PVC accounts for about 90% of total phthalate consumption."

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):

This?!

This is your scientific evidence?

"fears"

Fears?

So no, there is no scientific evidence. There are only, "fears"

There ya go... should I spell every single word in the below articles for you as well in case you don't bother reading through the articles as usual? Better than any so called facts you have contributed with in this thread so far

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 28):
http://www.healthybuilding.net/pvc/terms.html

"PHTHALATE - plasticizers, which are known carcinogens in laboratory animals, and are moderately bioaccumulative and moderately persistent in the environment. Phthalates have been known to damage the reproductive system, causing infertility, testicular damage, reduced sperm count, suppressed ovulation, and abnormal development and function of the testes and male reproductive tract in laboratory animals."



Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 28):
http://www.chem-tox.com/infertility/

"Chemicals found to mimic human estrogens.

A proper balance of natural estrogens in the body is essential for reproductive success. However, reports have been suggesting that environmental estrogens (chemicals which "mimic" our natural estrogens) are creating infertility problems by confusing the body's estrogen receptors. Some pesticides have already been shown to be environmental estrogens. New research shows that more chemicals are being found to be environmental estrogens including the food additives butylated hydroxyanisole (BHA) Other chemicals found to be somewhat estrogenic include, PVC plastics."


http://www.thegreenguide.com/doc.mhtml?i=118&s=healthnews
"Avoid PVC or "vinyl" shower curtains and floor tiles, which can release hormone-disrupting phthalates."

As I said: Good luck to your kids!

[Edited 2007-02-16 02:41:23]
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MDorBust
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:52 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 30):
"FACT: PVC accounts for about 90% of total phthalate consumption."

Which of course somehow makes the PVC and not the Phthalate the problem?

PVC accounting for 90% of Phthalate production does not mean Phthalates are in 90% of PVC.

I've not even contested the dangers of Phthalates. You've not even tried to establish a factual base for the dangers of PVC. We are talking about PVC though, not Phthalates. Want to get on the PVCs?

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 30):
Then look at the date of that article.. feel free to find one that is 8 years newer with updated knowledge

No sir. The onus is on you to provide scientific evidence of actual dangers posed by PVC. Not me. You are the one claiming that PVC is dangerous. You are the one that needs to supply actual evidence of known dangers.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 30):
Where did I say that it was?

So you admit to blatant fear mongering?

Cadmium isn't part of PVC. Why bring up Cadmium while trying to prove the danger of PVC? Fear mongering plain and simple. You have no real leg to stand on so you start tossing out things like Mercury, Cadmium and Lead. Of course it's okay to misdirect and lie, because it's "for the children."

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 30):
Care to supply that statement with facts?

http://web.aces.uiuc.edu/faq/faq.pdl?project_id=5&faq_id=969
http://www.womenshealth.com/library/phytoestrogens.html
http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/food/soy_story.html
http://www.breastcancer.org/faq_risk_soy.html
http://www.trans-health.com/displayarticle.php?aid=2
http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20060426-000001.html
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_21_159/ai_75563128
http://www.vegsource.com/talk/soy/messages/16404.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/05/040507083422.htm

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 30):
There ya go... should I spell every single word in the below articles for you as well in case you don't bother reading through the articles as usual?

No, just find the ones that say, "is known to cause." Oh, and make sure it says PVC.

In your two quotes you have a PHTHALATE and a complete nonstarter with a "somewhat estrogenic".

Try again.

*edit*
Removed duplicate link


[Edited 2007-02-16 02:58:08]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Klaus
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:54 am

Okay, now we're getting somewhere!

I actually agree that PVC is apparently quite problematic in a whole range of respects, among other things when it's burned.

The issue of brominated fire retardants is a separate one, but as the link shows it's not the case of an acute threat Greenpeace make it out to be.

Furthermore, both my most recent Macs - a PowerMac G5 and a MacBook Pro - are housed in fully-recyclable aluminium enclosures and contain very little plastic to begin with and thus don't need any or at least very little fire retardants.

But of course that didn't matter one bit against the plastic-laden competition.

Apple also has a pretty good track record regarding environmental initiatives, even at times when the others didn't know how to even spell "environment" and scoffed at the very idea of caring about it. I recommend a look at their time line of their ecological policies, just for comparison.

Still, there is no doubt that there are many aspects of their work computer manufacturers can and should be improving on.

The whole point why the Greenpeace campaign is more a hit piece than a responsible act of eco-activism is that they didn't bother with actually analyzing each manufacturer's ecological footprint or actual activities and initiatives for improvement but merely those aspects they lazily copied from press releases or which they extracted from information they pressured them for.

In short, they primarily looked at how the manufacturers themselves claimed to improve themselves, even ranging improvement from a recent dismal situation better than a stable but already long ago improved one.

With Apple's infamous level of secrecy and their currently extremly high profile Greenpeace apparently selected them as a scapegoat for publicity value rather than for valid substantial reasons.

They even manipulated and misrepresented their own analysis to fit the agenda.

That is the problem many people have with the Greenpeace campaign.
 
LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 31):
Which of course somehow makes the PVC and not the Phthalate the problem?

It makes both of them the problem, as most of the phthalate comes from PVC.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 31):

No sir. The onus is on you to provide scientific evidence of actual dangers posed by PVC. Not me. You are the one claiming that PVC is dangerous. You are the one that needs to supply actual evidence of known dangers.

Which I have done several times after that comment if you bothered looking.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 31):
Why bring up Cadmium while trying to prove the danger of PVC?

Well I could turn that around and ask why bring Soy into the picture to prove that PVC is not dangerous?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 31):
http://web.aces.uiuc.edu/faq/faq.pdl?project_id=5&faq_id=969
http://www.womenshealth.com/library/phytoestrogens.html
http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/food/soy_story.html
http://www.breastcancer.org/faq_risk_soy.html
http://www.trans-health.com/displayarticle.php?aid=2
http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20060426-000001.html
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_21_159/ai_75563128
http://psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20060426-000001.html
http://www.vegsource.com/talk/soy/messages/16404.html
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...2.htm

By the amount of time it took you to find all those links, I doubt there was time to read those articles as well, so why waste my time reading them for you?  Smile

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 31):
No, just find the ones that say, "is known to cause." Oh, and make sure it says PVC.

In your two quotes you have a PHTHALATE and a complete nonstarter with a "somewhat estrogenic".

That's what they ARE saying, not just with your exact type of wording there. Read the last article I linked you to!

What is it that you dont get??? since PVC accounts for 90% of phathalate, PVC IS the main problem here!!!

Can we agree on that this discussion has ended in mud throwing rather than some real facts vs facts?  Silly
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LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 32):
I actually agree that PVC is apparently quite problematic in a whole range of respects, among other things when it's burned.

Thank you!
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MDorBust
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 33):
It makes both of them the problem, as most of the phthalate comes from PVC.

PVC can be manufactured without Phthalate. Phthalate being a problem does not make PVC a problem. It makes Phthalate a problem.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 33):
Which I have done several times after that comment if you bothered looking.

No you have not provided a single scrap of anything that factually states problems known to be cause by PVC.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 33):
Well I could turn that around and ask why bring Soy into the picture to prove that PVC is not dangerous?

Simple.

You presented a link that said chemicals that mimic estrogen are bad. Soy mimics estrogen. It's a direct correlation. Do you want soy banned, or are you willing to admit that mimicing estrogen isn't in and of itself a bad thing?

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 33):
By the amount of time it took you to find all those links, I doubt there was time to read those articles as well, so why waste my time reading them for you?

I didn't need to read the articles. I knew that Soy mimiced estrogen. You asked for evidence, I found it for you.

If you are saying you are unwilling to read evidence presented to you, be that as it may. Your loss.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 33):
That's what they ARE saying, not just with your exact type of wording there

No, they are saying "suspect" or "fear". That is not nearly the same thing as "confirmed" or "known"

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 33):
What is it that you dont get??? since PVC accounts for 90% of phathalate, PVC IS the main problem here!!!

Why do you insist that there is a direct correlation between the two items?

90% of Phathalates could be .05% of PVC.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 33):

Can we agree on that this discussion has ended in mud throwing rather than some real facts vs facts?

Yes, I agree. You have done nothing but ignore facts and sling mud since reply #20.

Do I dare ask you to actually ever post an established and verifiable fact in this thread? I "fear" and "suspect" you won't, but you may yet prove me wrong.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:21 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 35):
Yes, I agree. You have done nothing but ignore facts and sling mud since reply #20.



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 35):

Do I dare ask you to actually ever post an established and verifiable fact in this thread? I "fear" and "suspect" you won't, but you may yet prove me wrong.

I give up.. you're cool, you're really cool  Yeah sure

I only have one thing to say to you:


 Silly

Going to bed now way later than I had planned due to some lame discussion because of some stubborn dude who just wont listen  Smile
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Klaus
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:23 am

Now, now... what about the topic of the thread...?  Yeah sure
 
MDorBust
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:29 am

Quote:

I only have one thing to say to you:

All you have to do is provide one source with a scientifically prove danger of PVC. Just one.

Let's review:

I've conceeded that burning PVC is not good for you.
I've not even contended anything about Phathalates as they aren't used on the PVC in the I-Pod.

Surrely if as you contend, my earlier statment that PVC is common in toys is the dummest thing ever written, it shouldn't be too hard to find factually established dangers of PVC.

BTW: Regarding the image... Arguing requires two people.

[Edited 2007-02-16 03:31:35]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:24 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 38):
All you have to do is provide one source with a scientifically prove danger of PVC. Just one.

All you have to do is provide me with the opposite thing. The only thing you have linked me to so far is one (1) random website... I, on the other hand have linked you to about 20 different websites now.

Prove to me that there are NO phathalates in PVC.

[Edited 2007-02-16 08:35:27]
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MDorBust
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:54 pm

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 39):
All you have to do is provide me with the opposite thing.

That's not quite how it works.

You made the claim, now provide the evidence.

Now go get one.

Find an article that doesn't make it's claim off of; "suspect", "fear", "may pose" etc etc.

I'll help you out. A scientific finding on the subject may look like this

Oh wait... That one supports my argument.

"In summary, given the present weight of scientific evidence for DINP, what we know about children oral exposures, and the conservatism employed in many risk assessments involving DINP, there is considerable scientific certainty that DINP, as contained in some toys, does not pose a health risk to even the highest exposed individual."

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 39):
Prove to me that there are NO phathalates in PVC.

It's banned in Denmark.

[Edited 2007-02-16 08:56:35]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 40):

That's not quite how it works.

You made the claim, now provide the evidence.

Now go get one.

Right back at ya! You claim that PVC isn't dangerous. Please provide me with an article stating that it isn't.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 40):
Find an article that doesn't make it's claim off of; "suspect", "fear", "may pose" etc etc.

I'll help you out. A scientific finding on the subject may look like this

Oh wait... That one supports my argument.

I've found lots of them already. I've found articles from lots of websites already. It's not me that needs to prove anything, it's you. But I have to give you that you're good at talking your way out of trouble

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 40):

It's banned in Denmark.

Yes, phathalate is, and as I've mentioned lots of times already, 90% of all the phathalate that we're getting exposed to comes from PVC!!!!!!

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 40):
"In summary, given the present weight of scientific evidence for DINP, what we know about children oral exposures, and the conservatism employed in many risk assessments involving DINP, there is considerable scientific certainty that DINP, as contained in some toys, does not pose a health risk to even the highest exposed individual."

And where did you get that from? And do you consider that to be scientific evidence?  Silly

[Edited 2007-02-16 11:14:35]
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WSOY
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:26 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 32):
With Apple's infamous level of secrecy and their currently extremly high profile Greenpeace apparently selected them as a scapegoat for publicity value rather than for valid substantial reasons.

Do you reckon Apple'd be in the future more open about where and how the parts for their products are being manufactured and by whom, so journalists can go and see for themselves what's going on?

With the recent discussion on the worldwide "sweat shop" sub-sub-sub-contracting this would really be something worthwhile and refreshing, radical even.

[Edited 2007-02-16 11:30:43]
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aloges
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:30 pm

God damn it, someone in this thread needs to take Chemistry 101!  banghead 

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 21):
A planet without I-pods, home computers, cellphones, microwave ovens, cars, televisions or indoor plumbing.

 rotfl 

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 33):
What is it that you dont get??? since PVC accounts for 90% of phathalate, PVC IS the main problem here!!!

NO! It does NOT! PVC is a rather simple plastic; by the way: do you know what a polymer is? If not, read up on it. Phthalates get into PVC products only if someone adds them to the raw PVC the product is made of. That addition is no chemical reaction - PVC is quite stable chemically - but in a way similar to mixing dough, or even mixing colours into glass. So what needs to be done to remove phthalates from PVC toys (again, not the polymer(plastic itself!) is to simply not add them in the first place. Phthalates aren't restricted to PVC either, which takes even more of the "evilness" out of the stuff.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 34):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 32):
I actually agree that PVC is apparently quite problematic in a whole range of respects, among other things when it's burned.

Thank you!

No, PVC itself is not problematic. To expand on the dough analogy, if you mix poison into one, does it make the flour the problem? The production of PVC can definitely be very problematic, as the monomer is a toxic gas. If PVC is burnt, it results in, among others, dioxins - but how often do people burn their plastic toys and inhale the fumes?

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 39):
Prove to me that there are NO phathalates in PVC.

As you said, they're banned in Denmark.
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LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
God damn it, someone in this thread needs to take Chemistry 101!

Someone needs to read the thread throughly before posting.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
Phthalates get into PVC products only if someone adds them to the raw PVC the product is made of.

Yes? Which is done all the time. Therefore PVC is the problem till there isn't any phtalates in it anymore.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
No, PVC itself is not problematic.

Whatever. In most countries, PVC is full of thalates, so until it isn't, PVC will still be the main issue here.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
As you said, they're banned in Denmark.

Yes, but not in most other places.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
The production of PVC can definitely be very problematic, as the monomer is a toxic gas. If PVC is burnt, it results in, among others, dioxins - but how often do people burn their plastic toys and inhale the fumes?

They do at recycling centers.

[Edited 2007-02-16 15:38:54]

[Edited 2007-02-16 15:41:34]
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aloges
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 44):
Someone needs to read the thread throughly before posting.

Guess why I'm irked by it.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 44):
Therefore PVC is the problem till there isn't any phtalates in it anymore.

The things made out of PVC can be problematic, the plastic itself isn't. Was that dough example so incomprehensible?

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 44):
They do at recycling centers.

Where they have dedicated incinerators and smoke filters...
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LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 45):
Guess why I'm irked by it.

I don't like guessing games

Quoting Aloges (Reply 45):
The things made out of PVC can be problematic, the plastic itself isn't. Was that dough example so incomprehensible?

No, I just look at this with a different view than you do. PVC IS the problem in most of the world as long as there are phathalates in it. Is that so incomprehensible?

Quoting Aloges (Reply 45):
Where they have dedicated incinerators and smoke filters...

Also everywhere in China and other countries in the far east?

[Edited 2007-02-16 16:14:14]
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aloges
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 46):
PVC IS the problem in most of the world as long as there are phathalates in it.

The point that I'm trying to make is that the phthalates aren't in the PVC itself. They are in the things made out of PVC, plasticiser, pigments and whatnot.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 46):
Is that so incomprehensible?

PVC = flour, PVC + additives = dough, consumer product = bread, so if the additives include phthalates, the dough and the consumer product are the problems - not the PVC. Getting rid of PVC and putting the phthalates in the replacement wouldn't get anyone one step further.

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 46):
Also everywhere in China and other countries in the far east?

They've also got burning coal mines, poisonous rivers and cancerogenous air in China - bad thing and it needs to change, but it's not our fault. If the Chinese government doesn't agree with yours and mine that people need to be protected from dioxins, then we can do very little about it.

Anyway, the production and recycling of PVC are problematic if handled incorrectly, I've agreed with that earlier, but the plastic itself isn't. It's a versatile raw material for all sorts of helpful products. As for

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 28):
Chemicals found to mimic human estrogens.

what exactly do you think the residues of the billions of birth control pills taken do to the animals in our rivers and lakes? We mess with nature all the time, it is always a balance between the good we do to ourselves and the bad we do to the environment that we need to sustain our lives.
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MDorBust
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting LYRFlyer (Reply 41):
Right back at ya! You claim that PVC isn't dangerous. Please provide me with an article stating that it isn't.

I did. In the post right above yours.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 40):
I'll help you out. A scientific finding on the subject may look like this

Again I ask you to provide scientic evidence of the dangers of PVC.

If you post again without a scientific link, I'll suggest it be deleted for trolling.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
LYRFlyer
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RE: What Is Apple Doing With It's "iWaste"?

Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 47):
The point that I'm trying to make is that the phthalates aren't in the PVC itself.

I know. Can we move on now?

Quoting Aloges (Reply 47):
They've also got burning coal mines, poisonous rivers and cancerogenous air in China - bad thing and it needs to change, but it's not our fault.

It isn't, but we still have a moral responsibility, I think.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 48):

I did. In the post right above yours.

Not really

Quoting Aloges (Reply 47):
it is always a balance between the good we do to ourselves and the bad we do to the environment that we need to sustain our lives.

Yes, but in these cases it is more about economy than protecting the nature. Changes could be made without causing any differences in the quality of the products.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 48):
Again I ask you to provide scientic evidence of the dangers of PVC.

If you post again without a scientific link, I'll suggest it be deleted for trolling.


And you call that scientific evidence? Do you even know who the author is? Did you even read it yourself before posting? Make another post with such a link and i'll suggest deletion of your post for trolling.


There ya go:
http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/conten...toxic-chemicals-in-a-child-s-w.pdf
http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/conten...phthalates-in-pvc-medical-prod.pdf
http://www.everestcoatings.com/coolroof/coolroofs4.htm

"The production of PVC plastic
uses the largest proportion of chlorine produced (30%) and is a major source of
hazardous substances in the environment, both during manufacture and
disposal. As well as using chlorine as raw materials, PVC contains many
additives, some of, which are also hazardous, such as heavy metal stabilisers or
phthalate softeners. Greenpeace has focussed specifically on PVC since the
early 1990’s and is calling for its material substitution with cleaner alternatives, as
a way of eliminating these hazardous substances."

It took me about 2 minutes to find doing a simple google search


Guys, to sum it up: It's irrelevant to talk about that PVC in its purest form is unharmful as almost any manufacturer producing products with PVC produce PVC full of other contaminants as well. Time to discuss real life situations instead of theoretic stuff, ok?

[Edited 2007-02-16 18:00:12]
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