aloges
Posts: 14842
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2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:44 am

See for yourselves: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB214/index.htm

TOP SECRET POLO STEP

Iraq War Plan Assumed Only 5,000 U.S. Troops Still There by December 2006


I need to be off soon, so please do keep it civil!  Wink
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Pope
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Aloges (Thread starter):
TOP SECRET POLO STEP

Iraq War Plan Assumed Only 5,000 U.S. Troops Still There by December 2006

Wow. It's confirmed that the administration miscalculated in its planning. That's breaking news.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
Wow. It's confirmed that the administration miscalculated in its planning. That's breaking news.

No, it's not, but it confirms what some of us who weren/t blinded by fear knew back in 2003: this administration grossly screwed up the plans for this war, and they've been feeding us a line of bull since "Mission Accomplished".

it shows the utter incompetence of the President, the VP, the SecDef, and the Joint Chiefs in planning the damn fool of a war, and how their miscalculations have deeply hurt this nation.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
andessmf
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:27 am

Has there even been a war that was NOT miscalculated in one way or another?
 
speedbird747BA
Posts: 1312
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
SecDef,

Former Secretary of Defense, Falcon.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 3):
Has there even been a war that was NOT miscalculated in one way or another?

Yeah, the Israelis [u]never[/i] miscalculate.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
tz757300
Posts: 2724
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
the Joint Chiefs

But remember, what ever they suggest has to be approved by the SecDef. So it's more on his fault
LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3568
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:10 am

"Wow. It's confirmed that the administration miscalculated in its planning."

Talk about understatement...

...just like Pol Pot admitting making some mistakes in Cambodia.  Wink


"Iraq War Plan Assumed Only 5,000 U.S. Troops Still There by December 2006"

Oh c'mon, they're only off by about 145,000. What's a few tens of thousands...
Ain't I a stinker?
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:20 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
No, it's not, but it confirms what some of us who weren/t blinded by fear knew back in 2003: this administration grossly screwed up the plans for this war, and they've been feeding us a line of bull since "Mission Accomplished".



Yawwwwwwwn........You are so bitter. How can you all this to consume your life the way it does? You really would be much happier if you just let it go.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 4):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
SecDef,

Former Secretary of Defense, Falcon.

Wrong. He was the CURRENT SecDef when this was drawn up. You stand corrected.  Smile

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 6):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
the Joint Chiefs

But remember, what ever they suggest has to be approved by the SecDef. So it's more on his fault

True, but they are the ones who should know what is exactly needed, and the fact they just agreed with SecDef shows they didn't do their jobs.

Quoting Pope (Reply 8):

Request denied. It deserves to be beaten for years to come.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
aloges
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Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 1):
That's breaking news.

The news is the scale of their blindness. 5000 troops at the end of 2006, they must have been entirely delusional.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:25 am

Wow...just wow. This is the greatest military power on Earth...and such delusional planning. Hot off the heals of a successful (militarily and politically) campaign in Afghanistan too (eventually neglected because of this Marlboro mission in Iraq). This was a royal choke. Rumsfeld...you douchebag...you royal fuck up. Unbelieveable. I want to smack you...hard. You bag of douche...nay, not a bag, but a box of douche.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
AGM100
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:35 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 9):
The news is the scale of their blindness. 5000 troops at the end of 2006, they must have been entirely delusional.

Yes and I assume you had it all figured out before hand , no one in the US or the EU could have calculated the savage violence on display their. The idea that the Iraqi people would exhaust themselves killing each other was not considered ... wow ... who would have thought it.

We underestimated the level of psychotic age old sectarian hatred these people have for each other ... great .

Iraq will stabilize , it will be a place that people can live together ... it may take time , but it will happen.

Beating the dead horse is just that , a bunch of gumming over nothing ... with no view of the future .. only the weak will to "KEEP PEACE" at any price. No matter what oppression and evil comes with "peace".
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Jalto27R
Posts: 841
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:42 am

.....And here I thought Bush and Rummy knew it was gonna be like this all along. Talk about a waste of my time, reading that damn article.
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:48 am

Mistakes were made. Dwelling on them won't fix anything however.

We need to concentrate on finding solutions to the current problems in Iraq before we go back and start nit-picking. That can wait until after the final bullets have finished flying.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:54 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
Iraq will stabilize

You hope. Hell, I hope.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
it will be a place that people can live together

I'm not sure of that. Anicient hatreds are something that few seem to get over.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
Beating the dead horse is just that , a bunch of gumming over nothing

No, it is not. If the history of what happened is ignored, and just sloughted asided by the apologists of those whjo made the errors, then we will repeat them again, and history won't be recorded correctly, to cover up political mistakes.

It is very important that the record be set straight for future generations to learn from those erros. It is not in vain, and it is not gumming over nothing.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Klaus
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
Yes and I assume you had it all figured out before hand , no one in the US or the EU could have calculated the savage violence on display their. The idea that the Iraqi people would exhaust themselves killing each other was not considered ... wow ... who would have thought it.

Actually, you'll find that among the many accurate predictions the Bush administration claimed were ludicrously pessimistic the current scenario was already foreseen.

But of course that was no reason to actually plan for a situation seasoned experts on both sides of the Atlantic (and elsewhere) anticipated...!  crazy   Yeah sure

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
Iraq will stabilize , it will be a place that people can live together ... it may take time , but it will happen.

Your problem is that you're still in the fully delusional belief that Iraq was somehow a carbon copy of Germany in 1945! Which it isn't - in almost every respect imaginable!

No, I don't hink it is entirely impossible that your rose-coloured vision might come true one day, but it is certainly not happening without a completely new approach which is based on reality instead of the delusion we've been inundated with for the past three years.  yuck 

General Petraeus may be the right guy to pull this off as far as the US military can influence it, but I see no reason at all for the Bush hangers-on to rejoice about somebody finally beginning to clean up the mess they've made with no need or reason.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
Yes and I assume you had it all figured out before hand

No, but I was among the masses warning that carnage would ensue in Iraq after the invasion.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
no one in the US or the EU could have calculated the savage violence on display their.

Maybe not "calculated", but civil war certainly was to be expected. You just need to look a couple of miles west of Iraq to know what ancient hatred between religions and sects can easily cause.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
The idea that the Iraqi people would exhaust themselves killing each other was not considered ... wow ... who would have thought it.

Are you kidding? It was not only considered, but forecasted. Just read through the endless threads where people argued about the planned invasion before it happened. Civil war after the invasion and destabilisation of the region were key arguments against the invasion. Not "the left's" alleged "softness" on Saddam Hussein.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
We underestimated the level of psychotic age old sectarian hatred these people have for each other ... great .

Yup, your government did a great job of that. It's not like they and Saddam Hussein in particular hadn't demonstrated it earlier, with the Kurdish and Shia Iraqis being the victims.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 11):
Iraq will stabilize , it will be a place that people can live together ... it may take time , but it will happen.

Hopefully - but for the "nation building" that could lead there, a plan is needed. A much, much better plan than what was declassified Feb 14th.

Quoting Jalto27R (Reply 12):
Talk about a waste of my time, reading that damn article.

Article? Those were formerly "top secret" powerpoint slides from the US government, hardly an article. Second, no one forced you to waste your precious time reading through the deadly mistakes of the Bush administration.

Quoting KSYR (Reply 13):
That can wait until after the final bullets have finished flying.

It can't. A war needs critical analysis to be won, and the analysis of the buildup to it is an important part of that. If it exposes the incompetence of those who are in charge of the war, it will hopefully lead to their replacement.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 16):
A war needs critical analysis to be won

Wrong. You don't analyze wars, you fight them. On two fronts. The military and the PR. Both must be won for victory. The one who persists the longer (not necessarily the right party) is the one who wins. War plans are always flexible and almost never followed.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 16):
If it exposes the incompetence of those who are in charge of the war, it will hopefully lead to their replacement.

Read up a little bit on the horrendous military mistakes George Washington made in his career. But he persisted and kept going till victory. I wonder what would have happened if GW had been replaced due to his incompetence?
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:27 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 17):
You don't analyze wars, you fight them.

So no one in the Pentagon and/or White House should be analysing what's happening in Iraq?! Strategy doesn't work without analysis, which might of course be why the Bush admin's strategy in Iraq isn't quite effective.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 17):
Read up a little bit on the horrendous military mistakes George Washington made in his career.

Comparing George W Bush to George Washington is an insult to Washington. You can also hardly compare the war in Iraq with the American War of Independence - for instance, the guerillas were the Americans whereas nowadays the Americans are trying to win against guerillas.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
andessmf
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 18):
So no one in the Pentagon and/or White House should be analysing what's happening in Iraq?!

Analysis is separate from planning.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 18):
Comparing George W Bush to George Washington is an insult to Washington.

Dismissing people for the mistakes they have made never allows some of them to correct their mistakes and rise above them. If I were using your current criteria, the continental congress should have dismissed Washington for his terrible mistakes.

And I was not comparing anyone to GWB. Merely stating that the complaints that you are voicing now would have been exceedingly similar to many wars that were fought previously.
 
Klaus
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:50 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 17):
Wrong. You don't analyze wars, you fight them.

If you're incompetent to analyze the tactical and strategic situation (as the Bush administration and some of the top brass have clearly proven to be), you have no chance against a skillful opponent, even at a great disparity of forces in your favour.

This may have changed recently at least on the military side, but we'll still have to see if that's enough to make a decisive difference.
 
RJdxer
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:57 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
You hope. Hell, I hope.

No you don't, you've too much invested in defeat. Nothing will ever look like victory to you so why do you pretend that it will? You're another one that even if 20 years from now Iraq is a thriving democracy, will still say it was the wrong thing to do.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Anicient hatreds are something that few seem to get over.

Not to mention modern ones, like your hatred of the current President.

December 1941....

Gen. Walter Short ordered army aircraft parked wing tip to wing tip due to his concern that saboteurs could gain entrance the field and by moving the aircraft they could more easily be defended. Aircraft were perfectly lined up for bombing attacks by Japanese naval aircraft.

http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1941/dec41/f06dec41.htm
From Washington... The final breakdown of deteriorating relations between the US and Japan. Roosevelt makes an appeal to the Japanese Emperor for peace. This direct approach violates Japanese cultural mores concerning the role of the Emperor and it goes unanswered. The US code breaking service has routinely intercepted and decoded all Japanese diplomatic messages and the most of the December 6th message is translated and sent to the President. It is clear from the message that war is imminent, but there are no specific details.

October 1950...

Chinese use diplomatic channels to tell President Truman that they cannot accept a capitalist Korea and the American military on their border and will assist North Korea in its defense if necessary. President Truman discounts the threat in part based on the advice of two sources.

Truman meets with MacArthur on Wake Island. MacArthur discounts possibility of Chinese intervention on the peninsula by claiming that the Chinese had no way to support those troops from the air and would never want to take the kind of casualties they would take from American aircraft alone.

CIA tells Truman that Chinese involvement is unlikely as well.

19 October Chinese military forces begin their attack on UN forces, backed in the air by Soviet Migs.

I could keep going back to the revolutionary war but I think you get the picture. The first person who can tell you how a single battle will develop not to mention an entire campaign or war will be the first person who could ever do so. War is fluid, always has, always will be. No one ever knows how one will end until it does end. The same is true in Iraq today.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
aloges
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:05 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 19):
Analysis is separate from planning.

As a war progresses, plans may need to change as well. In order to make the correct changes, you need to analyse. I dare say the plan in Iraq needs a lot of changes.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 19):
If I were using your current criteria, the continental congress should have dismissed Washington for his terrible mistakes.

No. The circumstances were nothing like the war in Iraq. In Washington's times, his nation was at stake, he needed to fight a war for it s independence, he had very little intelligence compared to the US before the war in Iraq, he had no significant technological advantage and his troops were not nearly as mobile as US troops are today.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 19):
And I was not comparing anyone to GWB.

You did:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 17):
I wonder what would have happened if GW had been replaced due to his incompetence?

I said I'd like to see those responsible for the unprecedented strategical mistakes in Iraq replaced - that means President Bush at the end of the day - you said George Washington made equally terrible mistakes yet wasn't dismissed. How is that not a comparison?

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 19):
Merely stating that the complaints that you are voicing now would have been exceedingly similar to many wars that were fought previously.

The thing is this war was planned worse than any other before. While experts everywhere were warning the Bush admin about future insurgent activity in Iraq, they initially planned with 5000 trops at the end of 2006. That's not a mistake, that is delusion. It's borderline criminal strategic incompetence, not tactical misjudgement which is what Washington's mistakes probably boil down to.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 22):
The thing is this war was planned worse than any other before

In Vietnam we lost over 50,000 men in 10 years time. In Korea we lost 33,600 dead in three years. Although strategically the war has not gone the way it was planned, and I would remind you that Vietnam was not supposed to turn into the conflict it did, from a tactical perspective it is the lightest casualty count over the longest period of active combat we have ever seen.

As Vietnam also showed, technological superiority does not always guarantee that you will have an easy time of it. Especially when your opponents use couriers instead of radios and do not wear identifiable uniforms. It also makes the war much tougher when you are hell bent on containing civilian casualties. This is a tough war to win, but if the reporting of it were true, it would be doubtless to anyone that we are winning. The soldiers, marines, airmen, and naval personnel that are serving there see the difference, only the press does not.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 21):
No you don't, you've too much invested in defeat

Bullshit. I was THE FIRST ONE on here, to come out in support of President Bush's buildup in Iraq. Why? Even though I was against us going to war, it's a sight better for us to win, and make Iraq work, than lose, and set the entire region back 50 years, with another Yugoslavia-in-the-making.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 21):
You're another one that even if 20 years from now Iraq is a thriving democracy, will still say it was the wrong thing to do.

Yes, I will. Then ends do not justify the means. We went to war under false pretenses, and that is wrong, no matter what the outcome. It wasn't a war to make Iraq a democracy-that was an afterthought after "Mission Accomplished" was seen to be a sham, and we learned there were no piles of WMD ready to be used on us.

I will never change my view that this war was wrong. And I'm skeptical that Iraq will ever be a thriving democracy. It's not in the culture of that area to even want democracy. But we have a debt of honor to those people to make the best of the situation FOR THEM, not for us. We have no choice but to keep going.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:07 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
Bullshit

No BS. Virtually every post since I've been here has shown that you want us to lose just so you can keep up your tirades about President Bush.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
I was THE FIRST ONE on here, to come out in support of President Bush's buildup in Iraq. Why? Even though I was against us going to war, it's a sight better for us to win, and make Iraq work, than lose, and set the entire region back 50 years, with another Yugoslavia-in-the-making.

That entire rant is completely illogical. you want the surge, but you're against the war. That makes no sense whatsover.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
It wasn't a war to make Iraq a democracy-that was an afterthought after "Mission Accomplished" was seen to be a sham, and we learned there were no piles of WMD ready to be used on us.

I have posted link after link showing where the President was quoted as saying that Saddam must disarm, or we would come in and remove him. That he would be replaced with a democratic government of the Iraqi peoples own choosing. That has happened. The intelligence on the wmd's was highly flawed but that does not diminish the rest of the mission no matter how you might like to ignore it presence prior to the invasion.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
not in the culture of that area to even want democracy.

Two elections, massive turnouts both times in face of insurgent threats of violence. Nope, they don't want democracy.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 25):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
Bullshit

No BS. Virtually every post since I've been here has shown that you want us to lose just so you can keep up your tirades about President Bush.

You're making pretty outrageous accusations here. You're saying Falcon84 wants more US soldiers to die so the war will be lost just so he can continue to bash the government. Might want to rethink that.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
davestanKSAN
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:32 pm

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:26 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 25):
That entire rant is completely illogical. you want the surge, but you're against the war. That makes no sense whatsover.

Uhh not really. Read what he said again, it makes perfect sense.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
I was THE FIRST ONE on here, to come out in support of President Bush's buildup in Iraq. Why? Even though I was against us going to war, it's a sight better for us to win, and make Iraq work, than lose, and set the entire region back 50 years, with another Yugoslavia-in-the-making.

He said he was against the reason for this war, i.e.:

"We went to war under false pretenses, and that is wrong, no matter what the outcome. It wasn't a war to make Iraq a democracy-that was an afterthought after "Mission Accomplished" was seen to be a sham, and we learned there were no piles of WMD ready to be used on us."

And now that we are there, it is in our best interests to do everything that is necessary to stabilize Iraq which I agree with fully, and I think you might as well.

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 23):
This is a tough war to win, but if the reporting of it were true, it would be doubtless to anyone that we are winning.

Sound familiar?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_offensive

"The Tet Offensive was a tactical defeat for the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese forces, but it inflicted severe damage on American civilian morale and contributed to the withdrawal of American forces from the country."

"The Tet Offensive can be considered a military defeat for the Communist forces, as neither the Viet Cong nor the North Vietnamese army achieved their tactical goals. Furthermore, the operational cost of the offensive was dangerously high, with the Viet Cong essentially crippled by the huge losses inflicted by South Vietnamese and other Allied forces."

"Nevertheless, the Offensive is widely considered a turning point of the war in Vietnam, with the NLF and PAVN winning an enormous psychological and propaganda victory." (Remember my comments about having to win both militarily and PR battles to win a war?)

"The Tet Offensive is frequently seen as an example of the value of media influence and popular opinion in the pursuit of military objectives."

"Seeing the complete collapse of the PAVN/Viet Cong offensive, the lopsided casualty ratio, the lack of a popular uprising in support of the attacks, and the failure of the attacking forces to gain and hold significant territorial assets, Westmoreland considered it an appropriate opportunity for a counteroffensive action."

"Many people, both at the time and in retrospect, have criticized the U.S media for the negative light in which it portrayed both the war in general and the Tet Offensive in particular. Earle Wheeler, then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, complained of "all the doom and gloom we see in the U.S. press" after Tet. General Westmorland would later write: "The war still could have been brought to a favorable end following the defeat of the enemy’s Tet Offensive. But this was not to be. Press and television had created an aura, not of victory, but defeat."
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3568
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:13 am

"Nevertheless, the Offensive is widely considered a turning point of the war in Vietnam, with the NLF and PAVN winning an enormous psychological and propaganda victory."

War isn't all about shooting...


"War is the continuation of politics." In this sense war is politics and war itself is a political action; since ancient times there has never been a war that did not have a political character....It can therefore be said that politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed."

Chairman Mao (1938)

Haven't you read your Little Red Book lately?  Wink
Ain't I a stinker?
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 26):
Might want to rethink that.

Why? It's been obvious for a while that while he might some how support the troops, he doesn't support their winning in Iraq since that would somehow vindicate the current President, whom he has villified at every opportunity. You are either for the mission or against it. You cannot stand on both sides of the fence since it impossible to be in two places at the same time. Saying I was against the war and think it is wrong and we shouldn't be there, but I hope we win it, makes him the biggest of all fair weather fans.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 27):
it makes perfect sense.

No it doesn't, its the same old left wing speak they've been spouting since the war started. We support the troops but don't support the war. Well if that's the case then you don't support them winning which is a morale buster. Again, I can provide link after link of speeches and interviews where the President made it clear that in addition to taking out the wmd's that everyone thought he had, we would take out Saddam and let the Iraqi people decide which kind of government they would have. We have fulfilled that part of the mission whether Falcon wants to admit it or not.

In addition, to say that the culture of the Iraqi people will not allow democracy, when the number that turned out to vote should put those of us who can vote here in this country to shame, in the face of threats of mortal injury from insurgents, is just idiotic. If you're going to turn a blind eye to the facts, do it on your own and don't broadcast your intention to do so on the internet.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:27 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 28):
General Westmorland would later write: "The war still could have been brought to a favorable end following the defeat of the enemy’s Tet Offensive. But this was not to be. Press and television had created an aura, not of victory, but defeat."

Absolutely. If a strategy fails, it is not the fault of those who devised the failed strategy but the fault of those who recklessly criticized it...!

Almost every leader staring in the face of self-inflicted failure has known that!  crazy   hypnotized 
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
If a strategy fails,

In the case of the Tet offensive, the strategy did not fail. The Viet Cong was decimated and the North Vietnamese army was routed. The setbacks experienced were no different than those experienced by U.S. troops in Korea upon the entry of the Chinese or during the battle of the bulge in late 1944. The reporting of the three events though was completely different. In the battle of the bulge it was cast as a setback but victory would ultimately be achieved. In Korea it was virtually ignored in the press. In Vietnam it was touted as a failure of the American military. The three outcomes reflect this, victory, stalemate, and defeat. If you do nothing but print bad news about a war. Blow the crimes of a handful of soldiers completely out of proportion to the entire force in country, then what do you expect the publics perception to be? I am not advocating that the press only be allowed to print good news but fairness should be a responsibilty of all journalists as well as a free press and we have seen precious little of that.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
If a strategy fails



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 28):
Viet Cong essentially crippled by the huge losses inflicted by South Vietnamese and other Allied forces."

Did you miss that quote above? It did not fail, it was reported as having failed.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 29):
It can therefore be said that politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed.

Thanks for the reminder, I forgot where I had read that before.
 
davestanKSAN
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:32 pm

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:54 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
No it doesn't, its the same old left wing speak they've been spouting since the war started. We support the troops but don't support the war. Well if that's the case then you don't support them winning which is a morale buster.

Uh no it's not. It's coming to terms with reality. It's knowing the fact that even though the reasons to war, manipulation of evidence (if you think there has been which I assume you do not), failure to plan for post invasion, etc, need to be discussed, the fact of the matter is we are in Iraq now and the only thing we have is to find a way to overcome the mistakes those in this administration have made. As you probably well know, not only do most if not all Democrats disagree with the President's troop escalation, but some mainstream Republicans have voiced their disapproval of the new strategy.

Yet, in light of that, when Falcon comes on here and says he supports the troop surge, you try and undermine it by saying stuff like "You are either for the mission or against it" or saying it is the "same old left speak."

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
In addition, to say that the culture of the Iraqi people will not allow democracy, when the number that turned out to vote should put those of us who can vote here in this country to shame, in the face of threats of mortal injury from insurgents, is just idiotic

Yeah well it sure seems as though the Iraqi people don't want a democracy. If they did, they why would we need more troops to go to Iraq? Why is there, if not a civil war, then something close to that extent within Iraq? If the people of Iraq want a democracy I guess their way of showing it is by blowing each other up and shooting at American troops, the very people who gave the opportunity to live in a democracy.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
If you're going to turn a blind eye to the facts, do it on your own and don't broadcast your intention to do so on the internet.

That's funny.  Wink

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 2958
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 21):
No you don't, you've too much invested in defeat. Nothing will ever look like victory to you so why do you pretend that it will? You're another one that even if 20 years from now Iraq is a thriving democracy, will still say it was the wrong thing to do.

Right...all Democrats want the US to lose....  sarcastic . This is the "same old right-wing speak" that Rush, Bill-O, Hannity, and others have been spouting for years now.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
Why? It's been obvious for a while that while he might some how support the troops, he doesn't support their winning in Iraq since that would somehow vindicate the current President, whom he has villified at every opportunity.

You are really sadly mistaken... it seems that all too often Conservatives and Liberals alike forget that we are AMERICANS first. I believe the exact same American Way you do, the Land of the Free, Home of the Brave etc... I am proud to be an American. If you think that because we have different beliefs, we're somehow completely separate, you are wrong. What happens in Iraq affects you just as much as it affects me. So get over this bullshit idea that we (as the political Left) want AMERICAN soldiers to die because we don't believe AMERICAN soldiers should be dying for a war based on lies and misinformation. Again, I'm sure you know this, the soldiers and the person telling the soldiers what to do are two different entities. Although this probably goes against everything you've been told by Fox Noise, we can, actually, be fully supportive of our troops, and believe wholeheartedly that this war is wrong.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
You cannot stand on both sides of the fence since it impossible to be in two places at the same time. Saying I was against the war and think it is wrong and we shouldn't be there, but I hope we win it, makes him the biggest of all fair weather fans.

Bullshit again. Apples and Oranges. This metaphorical fence you speak of isn't a fence at all. The TROOPS (i.e. the human beings that Bush willingly sent to their deaths) vs. The POLITICS OF THE WHITE HOUSE. Hmm  scratchchin , could it be that these really are two separate things, and we can feel differently about them. I hope you realize the irony by telling us (the Left) that we want AMERICAN soldiers to DIE, while at the same time wanting to PULL THEM OUT so they DON'T DIE! Now that, my friend, is a fence. So the true hypocrisy is supporting the troops (which I'm assuming means you want them to live), and wanting to PUT MORE OF THEM OVER THERE. Sound familiar...thought so. I want the troops to succeed militarily just as much as you do, but committing more of them, including many to their death, is just not my idea of success. We're fighting a war that we can't win; if you know how to win it, please tell me. I really honestly am all ears, because unlike what you think, I want to see our AMERICAN troops (yes, the same America that both you and I are proud to be citizens of), come home safely.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 34):
Uh no it's not. It's coming to terms with reality.

The reality is that no one in the administration ever said we would have the troops home by Christmas or any other such date. The thinking was that it would be a quick victory over Saddam, which it was. The planning for the post invasion included getting the Iraqis to set up a government and supporting them until they did. No one in the administration said we would be in and out in a year, ala Bosnia. The plan is and has been since shortly after the invasion to stay and support the Iraqis until their security forces can assume the mission. That day is coming soon enough considering the country was rebuilt politically from the ground up.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 34):
Yet, in light of that, when Falcon comes on here and says he supports the troop surge, you try and undermine it by saying stuff like "You are either for the mission or against it" or saying it is the "same old left speak."

Because in the same breath he states how he was against the war to begin with and has done nothing but wail and moan about it for as long as I can remember. If you support the troops then you have to support their mission. If you don't then you are for their defeat, it's just that simple.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 34):
Yeah well it sure seems as though the Iraqi people don't want a democracy.

Time to take a look at the country of Iraq and how many areas are actually in insurrection. This is where the press has the most blame since they paint a picture of the entire country going up in flames which is simply not true. A look at any of UH60's posts would show that. Yes there are very dangerous places in the country but then again, New Orleans is not the safest place in the world either and it's right here in this country.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:04 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 25):
No BS. Virtually every post since I've been here has shown that you want us to lose just so you can keep up your tirades about President Bush.

Oh, I will never let this president off the hook for the huge mistake he made in going to war in Iraq. But, unlike you, I can mark the difference between the political decision to go to war 4 years ago, and the situation as it is today, which demands we stay to make our incursion something that will help the Iraqi people.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 25):
That entire rant is completely illogical. you want the surge, but you're against the war. That makes no sense whatsover.

I was against the decision to go to war. However, we are there, no matter how we got there, or what any of us felt about it 4 years ago. Now, we have to figure out 1. How to make it workable for the Iraqi people, and 2. How we're eventually going to make an exit that won't leave Iraq in the clutches of unbridled chaos. I think, despite my misgivings if it will work or not, that "the surge" may be our best chance to make it work.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 25):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 24):
not in the culture of that area to even want democracy.

Two elections, massive turnouts both times in face of insurgent threats of violence. Nope, they don't want democracy.

Holding elections while an occupying army is in place, in my view, is not the ultimate test. The test will be AFTER the occupation is over, and seeing what happens then. THAT will be the key test for Iraq.

And I stand by what I said. I think, eventually, no matter what we do, Iraq will choose some kind of Islamic government, that is not based on our idea of democracy.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:20 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
And I stand by what I said. I think, eventually, no matter what we do, Iraq will choose some kind of Islamic government, that is not based on our idea of democracy.

Just to let you know, if you are basing this claim on Iran, Iran never selected an Islamic government. From what I have read, the revolution originally included many left wing groups, to which the Islamists were a minority. The aims of the revolution were never the creation of a theocracy, but the removal of the Shah. Khomeini was eventually able to get control over the entire country.

This is why you and I agree that it is so important to deal with the mullahs, because as with after the fall of communism, if the original theocracy falls to a more western style form of government, the idea and possibility of creating another theocracy diminishes greatly.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 23):
This is a tough war to win, but if the reporting of it were true, it would be doubtless to anyone that we are winning.

There have not been too many definitions of what winning this particular war might mean. I for one do not think the winning part is as "doubtless" as you indicate. The benchmarks should not be the numbers reported killed and the number of buildings destroyed. These tend to be pyrrhic victories.

Some of the supporters of Bush in the Iraq war do not seem to see a need to be able to include on the minus side about 2 million refugees and whatever the number of dead Iraqis is, somewhere between 100,000 and 600,000 with the odds on the latter. And presumably about 1 to 2 million seriously wounded at a time when Iraqi hospitals are in a dreadful state.

Between the refugees and the dead and wounded, a significant deskilling of Iraq seems certain to have taken place.

The more skilled refugees may be able to carve out new lives, but it would be surprising if bunting 2 million refugees (and another 1 million expected ?in the next year) into neighbouring countries would not cause a version of blow-back down the track.

The elections are commonly cited as a great plus. It is true that the voters turned out and voted, but the politicians for whom they voted do not seem to be able to form an effective government. So what sort of a victory is it when the election may increase conflict between Sunnis and Shia? It is probably the case that the constitution under which the elections were held is poorly conceived in which case elections held under it could well make the situation worse.

So I look forward to a definition of winning that allows for these rather disastrous outcomes - and probably a few others, that I have not thought of, should be included.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
General Petraeus may be the right guy to pull this off as far as the US military can influence it, but I see no reason at all for the Bush hangers-on to rejoice about somebody finally beginning to clean up the mess they've made with no need or reason.

The US only needs to create the situation that is right for the Iraqi's to gain control. We are not going to defeat the insurgency , Iraqi's will. Their are tremendous political struggles going on their , time and yes violence will resolve these. My fear is that the stronger of the political powers finds it necessary to become so violent that miss trust continues. This is where the real struggle is happening. The terror campaign being fought by the other side continues to force the Iraqi gov. to use tougher and tougher measures. This is my biggest fear their .. and only time will tell.

Saying that the Bush hangers are wanting a free Iraq to validate "our guy" is not the case Klaus. Having a free "Plural /liberal" Iraq has more to do with my grand kids than any President. The future of the US depends on those in the ME stabilizing , opening new markets , expansion of capitalist ideas , that is a goal high than any one mans stature.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
No, it is not. If the history of what happened is ignored, and just sloughted asided by the apologists of those whjo made the errors, then we will repeat them again, and history won't be recorded correctly, to cover up political mistakes.

Falcon I have always said that this is a risky venture , it is a bold move but IMHO it had to happen. Their is never a no risk war. If the Admin said , the biggest risk is that Sunni's would start killing Shia how would that effect the removal of Saddam ? The Sunni Shia problem will have to settle with time and lots of blood ,I guess , leaving Saddam their to kill one side is not a moral issue with you?. I know it is , you have stated that before that Saddam should go, how it was done is your complaint and you have valid points.

To be honest it would be better just to have left Saddam their if we just wanted to "keep the peace". But , Iraq would always be on the brink of civil war anyway. When Saddam's power started to slip , which eventually it would have it would have gone this way anyway. At this point at least we have some control over the country to give better chance to stability.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
At this point at least we have some control over the country to give better chance to stability.

At this point, we can't even keep Baghdad at peace, so in my mind we can't give the country any stability with the status quo.

That's why you either increase the number of forces, or you pull out entirely. And the latter simply isn't an option at this time, in my view.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):
At this point, we can't even keep Baghdad at peace, so in my mind we can't give the country any stability with the status quo.

That's why you either increase the number of forces, or you pull out entirely. And the latter simply isn't an option at this time, in my view.

Now there is the non-virtuous spiral of no reconstruction until there is some semblance of order, and no semblance of order until reconstruction.

The opportunity has been missed. Maybe General P will work a miracle, but the odds are against it. Good luck if he can.

The best bet seems to be to leave, because unless reconstruction is done to a significant extent it will just get worse.

There is no way that either the Sunnis or the Shia will accept the foreign maddies. They mainly tolerate them to help fight the US. If the US goes, they extremists will find it very hot, and very quickly.

The points that MAF made in The Worst Job In Iraq (by MDorBust Feb 15 2007 in Non Aviation)
1.dismissing the police
2 dissolving the Iraqi army and
3. making the Baath party illegal
are the reasons for the present mess. Reversing those policies will not reverse the effects.

Staying without being able to make real changes is probably just making matters worse. So unless General P makes a difference and soon, better to go. A departure would be bad, but a similar departure after two, three who knows how many more years of the situation as is, or worse will also be worse.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):
That's why you either increase the number of forces, or you pull out entirely. And the latter simply isn't an option at this time, in my view.

Peace and security will come when both sides have had enough of the killing. That is it , the US must assit the Iraqi people with buying time to let this play out. Thye can not continue this forever , eventually the forces of instability will have to be exposed as the enemies of peace. I just choose not the blame to US for the continuance of the terror campaign . All sides their could have basically what they want if they learned how to use politics instead of violence , this will take time to acheive.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3568
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:47 am

the US must assit the Iraqi people with buying time to let this play out.""

Which Iraqi people? Sunni, Shia or Kurd?

Remember: "The friend of my enemy is my enemy"

Either partition the country...

...or bring back a ruthless dictator like the man they hanged last year.  Wink
Ain't I a stinker?
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:43 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
Oh, I will never let this president off the hook for the huge mistake he made in going to war in Iraq.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 37):
But, unlike you, I can mark the difference between the political decision to go to war 4 years ago, and the situation as it is today,

Really?

Bush Still In Denial Over Iraq
"Despite my opposition to this war from the beginning-hell, before it started-I have said repeatedly that last 2 years we cannot pull out. But now, the dynamic has changed. Yes, young American men and women are still dying, but it is Iraqi's now that are dying at an alarming rate. If we are truly at the point of Civil War, it may be time to start thinking about a phased withdrawl.

After all, it seems like this civil violence is happening despite our presence there, and it seems our presence can't stop it, just curb it somewhat. If this violence steps up even further, American troops are going to start dying at a greater rate, I believe, and when is enough enough?"


Of course the war has been "spiraling" out of control now for how long?

Have We Reached True Civil War In Iraq?
With the explosion of violence the last few days in Iraq, it seems that the spiral downward to an all-out civil war is upon that war-torn nation.

And now, reaching, what I see, is the point of no return where sectarian violence is pouring over the country, I can now ask what I have refused to ask since the war began-have we reched the time for the U.S. to pull out?


You've been after the U.S. to pull out and admit defeat for almost 2 years now, probably longer, it just how far I searched back. I guess we should listen to you since you've been right so many times.....

Yes, Iraq Is Such A Stable Place!

A 60-day emergency, just 60 days before "elections", that will do nothing to foster democracy in that land.

And I'm glad you believe these elections, such as they will be, in probably less than half the nation, will accomplish anything.


How many turned out? Twice? What was the result of those elections?

You have been in favor of this nation taking the course of defeat for at least two years now. You don't support the troops because in your blind hatred for the President you can't support their mission. Somehow we are now supposed to believe you have been hoping secretly they'd win all along and you are hoping the surge will be just the trick? Sorry, if you expect me to believe that you'll wait a long time. If the surge works and I see you saying you knew it would and it was a smart move, guess what, I'll call you the fair weather patriot you are. And before you start to respond, let me save you some time. I'll just cut and paste your standard response to someone who gives you facts that you don't like to see.
The War Is Going Well?
Stick it where the sun don't shine, Corporal_Rabb. You're the absolute worst kind of American, who wants everyone to say "seig heil" and goose step with this man in Washington. Sorry, but I'll continue to be patriotic, and voice my opinion on what I think our government is doing wrong.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:25 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 45):
fair weather patriot you are.

You know what RJ you almost had a point up to here.
A) You are name calling
B) You are flame baiting
C) You don't appear to be man enough to admit that sometimes people can like something yet be honest about how bad it is at any given point.

I am a DIE HARD South Florida sports fan. I will love almost all the S. Florida teams until I die. BUT!! The Dolphins Suck, the Hurricanes are a bunch of loser thugs and the Miami Heat has homophobes.

Is comparing sports and this  redflag  going on in Iraq fair? Maybe not, but I wanted to come up with a CLEAR example of how you can like something (be a patriot), yet still have issues with the team (country).

That being said W. should have done this surge 3 FUCKING YEARS AGO!!! He had his chance and he blew it like a $10 crack adict whore. If you still support/believe in him great, fly yourself to DC buy a cake and show up at the whitehouse and have a freaking party, but in the mean time GET OUR TROOPS OUT OF HARMS WAY!
This space intentionally left blank
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:35 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 46):
GET OUR TROOPS OUT OF HARMS WAY!

So you advocate defeat.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 47):
So you advocate defeat.

No, he's advocating to get them out of harms way. By my definition, that would mean to enable them to dominate their theatre of operations, hand over power to an actual democratic infrastructure, pack up and leave. That way, they won't have to fight the same insurgents again.

But judging by that post, you're obviously positive that the only way to bring them to safety is to cut, run and accept defeat... Big grin
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: 2002 Iraq Plans Declassified Under Foia

Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 47):
So you advocate defeat.

There's no chance of a 'victory' there unless we go Waffen SS on that country's ass. And the US does not have those kind of stones no matter what those anti-Americans out there say. And thank God for that!

The fact is, this was was poorly planned. I'm well aware that war is a fluid thing and that plans have to be changed during the progession of the operation, but there's a limit between "fluidity" and poor planning. Generals in our own military protested the way the war was planned from the beginning. The fact that we tried to occupy a country with a force less than a fourth the size used to liberate tiny Kuwait in a short 100 hr operation, completely dismantling the police force, nay the whole government infrastructure and expecting to build a new one from scratch...I mean heck even WW2 German military officers and other low level staffers were retained after VE day to rebuild West Germany as a democracy. The first of the "new" Luftwaffe pilots happened to be Luftwaffe pilots from the days of the Reich.

We've done it before, successfully. We screwed it up this time.

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