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HAWK21M
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The 1971 War

Sun Feb 25, 2007 6:25 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Liberation_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1971

This was being discussed at Lunch today.
The 1971 War leading to the Creation of Bangladesh was a very small duration declared war.What happened to the Pakistani POVs from Eastern front.Did they return to Pakistan or stayed back as Bangladeshi Nationals.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
airxliban
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RE: The 1971 War

Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:18 am

I believe that Louis Mountbatten declared that the senseless split of East and West Pakistan would not even last a quarter of a century - and he was right if by less than 2 years.

I went to Bangladesh and Pakistan recently and was really, really impressed by Bangladesh and the Bengalis. Even though they lost 25 years of history under Pakistani rule, their economy is heading in the right direction, they have a democratic political system and free society, rich with arts, culture and music. Socially speaking they are way, way, way ahead of a certain country 1000 miles to the west with which they one shared a name.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
trvyyz
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RE: The 1971 War

Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 1):
Even though they lost 25 years of history under Pakistani rule, their economy is heading in the right direction, they have a democratic political system and free society, rich with arts, culture and music. Socially speaking they are way, way, way ahead of a certain country 1000 miles to the west with which they one shared a name.

Nice to hear an unbiased opinion from an outsider.  bigthumbsup 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:24 pm

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 1):

I guess Since Bangladesh & India's state of East Bengal share the same Language.Im sure Tourism would be a big boost.
Hows its practically.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:02 pm



Found this Video on Youtube.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The 1971 War

Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:54 pm

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 1):
senseless split of East and West Pakistan

This in fact leads to the question whether the division of Greater India, initiated by Ali Jinnah Khan, makes any sense at all. I mean, when I see that India has almost as many Muslims as either Pakistan or Bangladesh, the resulting idea is the one about a tripartite re-unification, with India being the core-nation and Delhi remaining the Federal Capital.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:38 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
This in fact leads to the question whether the division of Greater India, initiated by Ali Jinnah Khan, makes any sense at all. I mean, when I see that India has almost as many Muslims as either Pakistan or Bangladesh, the resulting idea is the one about a tripartite re-unification, with India being the core-nation and Delhi remaining the Federal Capital.

In the Current seneraio things look very Difficult.With Indias Economy doing well.I don't think there would be any such moves from India.
The only outstanding Issue is the Recovery of POK & Ansai chin.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The 1971 War

Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:48 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
POK

while the Pakistani regard the other side up there as IOK ! Suggest, India and Pakistan establish an independent Republic of Kashmir to get out of the deadlock. You might follow the ways of people like Messrs Schumann/DeGaulle and Adenauer and establish a "Subcontinental Economic Community" made up of Pakistan, Khashmir, Nepal, India and Bangladesh, to be converted later on into the "Subcontinental Union" the "SU" !  yes   yes 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
You might follow the ways of people like Messrs Schumann/DeGaulle and Adenauer and establish a "Subcontinental Economic Community" made up of Pakistan, Khashmir, Nepal, India and Bangladesh, to be converted later on into the "Subcontinental Union" the "SU"

With the Current Mistrust.It looks a Dream.
Theres a Movie titled "1971" on its way.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/pics-man...braves-it-all-in-1971/33308-8.html
regds
MEL

[Edited 2007-03-04 18:35:03]
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
BarfBag
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RE: The 1971 War

Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
Suggest, India and Pakistan establish an independent Republic of Kashmir to get out of the deadlock.

There's no deadlock as such. We already control most of the territory of the state of Jammu and Kashmir. It would be nice to have the rest too, but we're not particularly bothered about it, certainly nowhere near as hysteric as the Pakis are about the part we have. Possession is 90% of the argument for ownership, and we already possess the territory. The current situation essentially amounts to Pakistan demanding various things and our saying "no". Rinse. Repeat.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 7):
You might follow the ways of people like Messrs Schumann/DeGaulle and Adenauer and establish a "Subcontinental Economic Community" made up of Pakistan, Khashmir, Nepal, India and Bangladesh, to be converted later on into the "Subcontinental Union" the "SU"

You're getting ahead of yourself here. India is still growing economically. The average PPP PCI is just ~$4000. Instead of some grandiose economic confederation, our focus for the next 20-30 years ought to be solely our own economic development. In any case, Kashmir is already part of the Indian economic system. The Indian currency is acceptable in Nepal. Sri Lanka has a free trade agreement with India. Bhutan is essentially a protectorate of India. Therefore, a majority of nations around us already have deep economic ties. As for the other two - Pakistan and Bangladesh - they opted out of India, so they're on their own to find their way forward.
 
Queso
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RE: The 1971 War

Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
What happened to the Pakistani POVs from Eastern front.

I don't think so.

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
Did they return to Pakistan or stayed back as Bangladeshi Nationals.

I agree.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The 1971 War

Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:45 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 9):
growing economically. The average PPP PCI is just ~$4000. Instead of some grandiose economic confederation, our focus for the next 20-30 years ought to be solely our own economic development.

A) "still" growing ? Even to reach the average of countries like Egypt, the economy in India has to grow quite considerably, as it certainly WILL !
B) I do NOT speak about something "grandiose", and I do NOT speak about a confederation, but in the words of Mrs Thatcher about a lose union of independent countries.
C) "solely our own economic development" ? When I see that the convenience-shops of petrol-stations in the UAE are full with Indian goods of an enormous variety, when I see that Indian motor-car manufacturers are on the brink of moving into the European market, when I see Indian products into the Mediterranean area, then I have to say that such views have been rolled over by your own country, and that you need to open your views to developments to come, NOT now, but in the coming decades. The Montan-Union was established more than 50 years ago, so that to develop the E.U. of today needed half a century.
-
You remind me of a German employee who worked for some years in this office. I often had to tell him that he apparently forgot the SIZE both of his country as such and of the economy of his country and last but not least the enormous impact of that country onto its "neighbourhood" .
-
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:31 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 9):
India is still growing economically

The Economic Battle will determine a Nations Strength & INDIA is on the Right Track.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The 1971 War

Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
The Economic Battle will determine a Nations Strength & INDIA is on the Right Track.

-
I am quite sure about this. I trust in the business leaders of your country to to push politics into the right directions, when they feel it is time. Because, as Germany in postwar Europe has experienced, economic might results in some responsibility on one side and on the requirement for better general conditions AROUND the country on the other side. The Germans as far as I can see it NEVER were E.U.-freaks, neither were their politicians and business-leaders, but they gradually realized that open markets and open trafficways are of considerable importance. If you see that India (1030mio people) has a Gross-Social-Product PER CAPITA of 450 US$ , Egypt (75mio people) has one of 1'490 US$, Algeria (32mio people) one of 1'580 US$, Italy (58mio people) one of 20'160 US$, France (60mio people) one of 24'090 US$, Germany (83mio people) one of 25'120 US$, and Switzerland (7,6 mio people) one of 45'400 US$, then you may see that your country still has some years to go to reach the European levels, but due to the size of the country within a few years will have become a definite economic giant !
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:03 am

The Draw back for India would be Population Growth & Lack of Education for some.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The 1971 War

Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
The Draw back for India would be Population Growth & Lack of Education for some.

the problem with education programs and the fight against illiteracy is that such things take decades until yielding results. There are no shortcuts. The proplem with the population growth is a difficult one, as exactly progress in healthcare in general and specific treatments and the progress in regard to the infrastructure in many areas of the world has reduced the number of dying small children, and that inevitably leads to a heavy growth in population.
 
BarfBag
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RE: The 1971 War

Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
You remind me of a German employee who worked for some years in this office. I often had to tell him that he apparently forgot the SIZE both of his country as such and of the economy of his country and last but not least the enormous impact of that country onto its "neighbourhood" .
-

Spare me. That analogy is not realistic. There's no point in India trying to drag Pakistan and Bangladesh into an economic union at this time. You really are not very familiar with the SAARC, SAPTA ad SAFTA are you ? Or for that manner the long time disagreement on the MFN status that Pakistan does not accord us despite their WTO obligations to do so ? Or the long running Bangladeshi refusal to provide transit of Burmese oil into India, which finally made us decide to build a longer pipeline over our land ? How about them causing so much trouble to a $3 billion Tata investment that it ultimately got cancelled ?

The reality is the opposite of your assumption - both those nations find India's economic strength much too overwhelming from a trading perspective. Even with stunted economic relations with them, India has a huge trade surplus, because we have an industrial base significantly larger than their combined GDPs. They on the other hand, have an export base comprised significantly of low tech and primary products.

Combine with that the baggage of the past, and any attempt on our part to initiate economic talks descends into paranoia about economic hegemony on our part, which conveniently feeds into their domestic political issues, that find a convenient outlet in blaming India for everything, e.g. 'no economic opening until Kashmir is solved' or 'no trade until India stops preventing Bangladeshis crossing the border into India illegally', etc.

Those nations that do see it in their interest to have an economic relationship with us and judiciously do so will always be welcome. Sri Lanka and India don't have the most friendliest of ties, but the Lankans know their prosperity lies in India's prosperity, and are pragmatic about it. Same with Nepal, Bhutan and even Burma/Myanmar now. China will overtake the US next year as India's largest trade partner. The problem lies entirely with the two Muslim majority neghbours, and their domestic compulsions are not our problem. Therefore they can stay out.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The 1971 War

Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 16):
SAARC, SAPTA ad SAFTA

thanks for the info. Just looked them up. As such very positive things, even if progress of such ventures usually is slow because their always are some "objectors".
-

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 16):
MFN status that Pakistan does not accord us despite their WTO obligations to do so ?

most regrettable. Let's hope that they come round on that
-

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 16):
Or the long running Bangladeshi refusal to provide transit of Burmese oil into India, which finally made us decide to build a longer pipeline over our land ? How about them causing so much trouble to a $3 billion Tata investment that it ultimately got cancelled ?

What actually was the REASON for this refusal ?
-

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 16):
both those nations find India's economic strength much too overwhelming from a trading perspective. Even with stunted economic relations with them, India has a huge trade surplus, because we have an industrial base significantly larger than their combined GDPs. They on the other hand, have an export base comprised significantly of low tech and primary products.
--
Combine with that the baggage of the past, and any attempt on our part to initiate economic talks descends into paranoia about economic hegemony on our part, which conveniently feeds into their domestic political issues, that find a convenient outlet in blaming India for everything

-
Does NOT leave much else to say than "I seeeee" !  Yeah sure
-
OK, all correct, but I anyway did NOT have this year or next in mind, I mentioned DECADES before. And things may look better in some 10 or 20 years.
 
BarfBag
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RE: The 1971 War

Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:54 am

Cooperation is all fine, any time - tomorrow or 50 years later. It takes two sides to do it, not one. It is not realistic that India has to go out of its way as some perceived 'benevolent big brother'. Paradoxically, instead of doing good, it tends to cause the other side resentment, as if we're telling them what's good for them. It ends up becoming a local version of the kind of angst against the US these days. That's just not worth our time. There's no point in arguing India cannot put baggage aside - we have a thriving trade relationship with the Chinese regardless of the long border tension. Given the chance, any Indian company would happily fill the Pakistani/Bangladeshi markets with their wares. But in reality, nothing much is about to happen considering an Indian company proposed to invest $3 billion in Bangladesh (~4% of their GDP), and they declined it. If they decide some day that a tight economic relationship is in their interest, they can come forward. Until then, the idea is a lot of fluff.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 18):
Given the chance, any Indian company would happily fill the Pakistani/Bangladeshi markets with their wares. But in reality

Remember the Ban on Movies of Indian Film Industry in Pakistan  Smile

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
bravo45
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RE: The 1971 War

Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:30 pm

Quoting AirxLiban (Reply 1):
Socially speaking they are way, way, way ahead of a certain country 1000 miles to the west with which they one shared a name.

huh!!
So you visited Pakistan?? I have no problems, in fact I cherrish the progress of Bangladesh but I sense some real anti something feeling there, to the point of being outright lying. So I would only ask you to elaborate.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
The only outstanding Issue is the Recovery of POK & Ansai chin.

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 
Thanks for the laugh.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):
Theres a Movie titled "1971" on its way.

 rotfl  rotfl  rotfl 
Here we go again....

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):
With the Current Mistrust.It looks a Dream.

The only thing you and I could possibly agree on.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 9):
It would be nice to have the rest too

 rotfl 
Dream on!!

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 9):
but we're not particularly bothered about it, certainly nowhere near as hysteric as the Pakis are about the part we have.

Of course you are not, as long as you can supress their right of self determination. Of course you wouldn't be bothered unlike someone like me who grew up in the area with the highest percentage of Kashmiries outside Kashmir and who know how they make a mockery of the so called LOC, who have their families split over. You in India could only possibly be concerned about the territory, forget the people. I say enjoy it while it lasts.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
The Economic Battle will determine a Nations Strength & INDIA is on the Right Track.

 rotfl 
You really wanna know the reality about what I think of all this, I don't have enough time right now, I'll try to put the brutal truth to you soon.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
Remember the Ban on Movies of Indian Film Industry in Pakistan

Oh great memory you have there!!!
I bet its not smart enough to rememeber the decade old ban (not sure of the status right now) of anything to do with Pakistan over the airwaves. Including the tranmitters they installed to block the tranmission. I bet you are not smart enough to forget the ban on overflights. Geez I think I am wasting my time here.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 20):
bet its not smart enough to rememeber the decade old ban (not sure of the status right now) of anything to do with Pakistan over the airwaves. Including the tranmitters they installed to block the tranmission. I bet you are not smart enough to forget the ban on overflights

The Movie Ban still Exists. 
Remember what caused the Overflight Ban.An Attack on Parliment.
Amazingly yesterday a Pakistani Cusine Festival was held in Kolkata.You should have listened to what the chef said.  

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 20):
Of course you are not, as long as you can supress their right of self determination

What about the Democratic right of people in Our Neighbour country.The Dictator still rules  

Currently The Situation out here is India is NOT Pakistan Centric & there are more Important Issues that worry about One nation.Unlike Pakistan thats totally India Centric.

regds
MEL

[Edited 2007-03-08 04:26:34]
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:30 pm


There was a Programme Telcast on CNN/IBM today evening discussing the same plight of those Indian POVs not yet returned with their Family members & a few policical leaders.

Sad case.
http://www.nowrunning.com/broadband/?o=t&movieNo=3769&it=1568

After a war ends POVs should be returned.

regds
MEL

[Edited 2007-03-09 15:36:28]
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The 1971 War

Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
After a war ends POVs should be returned.

but, how long were those POWs of 1971 actually held captives ?
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 23):
but, how long were those POWs of 1971 actually held captives

There were 54 who were not returned.Witnesses/sources also claim they were captured.The Problem was that the Govt of the other side dismisses they exist.However there are many letters smuggled out,reports by other prisioners etc to the contarary.
When India returned 95,000 Pakistani POVs.These Indian POVs were not returned.The plight of those Families are sad as they do not have access to the truth.
http://www.1971thefilm.com/
The Film is a tribute to those Heros.It has some Evidence in print too.read it.

regds
MEL

[Edited 2007-03-09 16:17:46]
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
trvyyz
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RE: The 1971 War

Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):

I think we made the mistake here. We shouldn't have returned their's before getting ours.

I bet we can't trust "your neigbouring country". You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out Wink
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The 1971 War

Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 24):
There were 54 who were not returned.Witnesses/sources also claim they were captured.The Problem was that the Govt of the other side dismisses they exist

horrible, very simply horrible. But what possibly IS to be taken into account that they died AFTER having been captured. I do NOT dare to venture into guesses HOW, but suppose that such is to be taken into account. In case of an even heavier number of Egyptians captured by the IDF in 1967, such things became known some 15 years later. To the honour of the Israeli it was the Israeli judiciary who brought matters into daylight. I fear, the Pakistani judiciary does NOT enjoy as much freedom as their Israeli colleagues !
 candle   pessimist   thumbsdown   tombstone 
 
bravo45
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RE: The 1971 War

Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:21 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
The Movie Ban still Exists

REALLY!!!!!!!
Now also let me know WHICH ban went into effect first and what is your excellent source for the above statement. lol

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
Remember what caused the Overflight Ban.An Attack on Parliment.

OMG!!!
I take my previous statement about your memory, back. My memory is not great either but I think better than yours, maybe you have confused what your propaganda is spitting out or maybe its the fault of your propaganda that keeps messing things up. But I am sure that overflights were banned first by India after the hijacking of Indian Airlines A-300 by 'Pakistan', or so they claimed. Anyway interesting story for anyone interested; So an Indian Airlies A-300 was hijacked, taken over ON THE GROUND in India and manages to takeoff despite ample time to block the runway. The plane lands in Lahore, India now requests Pakistan to block it and negotiate and possibly allow a rescue operation. Pakistan citing what happened the last time they did support (India blamed Pakistan for the hijacking, Pakistan negotiated, can't recall the demands but all passengers including the a/c were released without any damage, later Indian banned overflights), only provided blankets and fuel on humanitarian grounds and gave a short 2-3 hour deadline to the hijackers to leave. Anyway the plane takes off, I remember looking at it climb after takeoff from my home, ends up in Afghanistan.
Compare that to the latter hijacking of a PIA Fokker F-27; Hijacked in mid air, hijackers demanded to fly to India. Pilots used squawk 7500 (Hijack) and contact the Pakistani ATC calling them IIRC 'Amratsir control' (Indian sector). The plane lands in Pakistan on an airport that's flying the Indian flag and soon enough people dressed in Indian clothes begin to negotiate wearing Indian clothes, Hindu trademark tattoos on the forehead, and greeting them with the Hindu greetings. The talks drag on for a few hours and then the a Pakistani Anti-Terrorist Force unit storms the a/c, catches ALL hijackers alive without A SINGLE PASSENGER getting hurt. The hijackers were tried and in a few years time, executed. These incidents are pre 9-11.
Not to forget, not long after 9-11, the Indian media all of a sudden started to give out some BREAKING NEWS. It was about the hijacking of yet another aircraft on the ground. After a while details started to come in of how the hijackers were speaking Arabic and maybe Urdu. Then a few hours passed while negotiations were going on and then......... nothing! I then remember hearing that it was a mistake. lol
I would recommend a little more competence. Hopefully when the relations b/w our countries are better, we'd be glad to train our neighbours to make our skies safe. Amen!

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
Amazingly yesterday a Pakistani Cusine Festival was held in Kolkata.You should have listened to what the chef said.

You really should have been there when my mom asked about how as a Muslim, was the life of her doctor and his one female Muslim staff member. No kidding...

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
What about the Democratic right of people in Our Neighbour country.The Dictator still rules

Since when did you guys start to care about anyone else?? The dictator is going, by himself of forced out by the people. BTW How's the Caste System over the border?

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
Currently The Situation out here is India is NOT Pakistan Centric & there are more Important Issues that worry about One nation.Unlike Pakistan thats totally India Centric.

hahahhahaha
So I or WE are Indian centric. Lets see.... who started this thread?? How many Pakistani a.netters are posting on it? And how many times have they posted? While we are at it, lets see who started the last 5-10 threads about the other? Who posted and how much?
My 2 posts are the proof of the fact that I had a lot of extra time to kill, with which I definitely could have done more productive things. Of the other 5-10 threads I only posted on IIRC 1-2 threads, and after a very long post on one of them, some how the thread mysteriously died without any real replies to what I had said.

Lastly about your POWs, I think even your media donesnot have enough proof for a claim on this because I have never heard of anything. And trust me, when we can hear about hijackings that never were, POWs would be a slam dunk. Though I agree with the principal, All POWs should be returned ASAP after a conflict.
Again while we are talking about this, why don't you quote a respectable source. UN deliberations in your propaganda movies you seem to be promoting here don't really count for anything more than spurring hatred which spills into violence in which mosques are brought down and genocides committed. BTW When were the Pakistani POWs were returned?
Secondly your Army has a horrible record of keeping records. During the Kargil War, a certain Major Asim, IIRC was claimed to have been captured by the Indians, later they presented letters from family as proof. And that one evening a Major Asim gave interview to the international press. There was also an IAF Mig shot over Pakistani side of the LoC. Indians didn't accept their a/c has been shot down until a certain IAF Pilot sent a message to his family that he was okay. He was handed over to the International Red Cross, IIRC even before the hostilities ceased. Talking about your Army's records, during the same conflict, your Army announced its highest military award for one of its fallen soldiers for his bravery on the battlefield. His body was supposed to be with the Pakistani's. A few days later the Army's Chief of Staff was sitting besides the brave soldier apologizing to him and his family to have declared him dead. Though I don't remember if the medal was given. My guess is... not.
 
bravo45
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RE: The 1971 War

Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 26):
I fear, the Pakistani judiciary does NOT enjoy as much freedom as their Israeli colleagues !

Not really sure about that. But probably Pakistanis can be more satisfied for being Pakistanis with a judiciary even if it is exactly the way this statement implies than being an Israeli with a jury as free as it is, but with millions of ethnically cleansed people living in refugee camps for decades under a brutal apartheid occupation.
I am not saying anyone has a list of reasons to be proud of Pakistani or Indian judiciaries, hopefully none will ever have to confront the kind of challenges a certain ME country that claims to be the only democracy in the middle east faces.
 
trvyyz
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RE: The 1971 War

Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 27):
Anyway interesting story for anyone interested; So an Indian Airlies A-300 was hijacked, taken over ON THE GROUND in India and manages to takeoff despite ample time to block the runway. The plane lands in Lahore, India now requests Pakistan to block it and negotiate and possibly allow a rescue operation. ,

From where did you get this story.
It was your compatriots(not referring to your current flag, but the green one in your heart) who arrived in PIA in Kathmandu(Nepal) changed flights to IC without any security check since it was a transit. You guys did a fine job in the pakistani airport and was well planned by your top guys.

[Edited 2007-03-10 05:39:59]
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:38 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 27):
How many Pakistani a.netters are posting on it? And how many times have they posted? While we are at it, lets see who started the last 5-10 threads about the other? Who posted and how much?

When People have nothing to Contribute they stay away  Smile
Jawad bhai.....You are living in a dream.By stating stories that were never the truth Does not make them facts.Maybe you should have heard the POVs not returned Families speak.Even if they are not living the truth should be known.

India is a very Strong Democracy thats willing to Accept that its not perfect,thats the Strength of a Democracy.Unlike Military regimes where people are forced to spread their word  Smile believing everything thats dictated to them.
I have friends of all communities,Sharing each others festivals & never ever having a problem with that.

I'm not saying that Indian Films are realistic.Its Entertainment but def of a better quality.I'm referring to History.If peace approaches can lead to Betrayl like Kargil.Then We were left with no choice than teach those sponsors of terror a lesson & thats what we did.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 27):
BTW When were the Pakistani POWs were returned

Check the real History books what happened after the Liberation of Bangladesh.When East Pakistan surrendered.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
bravo45
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RE: The 1971 War

Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 30):
When People have nothing to Contribute they stay away

Well Mel brother, at least you can't have it both ways; staying away and centric.  Smile

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 30):
You are living in a dream.By stating stories that were never the truth Does not make them facts.

Stories are what your fellow countryman currently in Canada above referred to. What I mentioned were facts, did ANY of the incidents I mentioned above not take place? I was in fact a bit careful so as not to say something as alien to you as your POW story sounds to me.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 30):
Maybe you should have heard the POVs not returned Families speak.Even if they are not living the truth should be known.

You really should have read what I said above;

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 27):
I have never heard of anything. And trust me, when we can hear about hijackings that never were, POWs would be a slam dunk. Though I agree with the principal, All POWs should be returned ASAP after a conflict.



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 30):
I have friends of all communities,Sharing each others festivals & never ever having a problem with that.

And Mel bhai I can assure you its all the more true in my case now and it was true for me when I was in Pakistan. And it was so second nature, that I never really thought about minorities as different until I came to this country where we are minorities. I must have reaped what I sowed, I have never felt different here even during the transition. And now that I think about minorities back in Pakistan, for the first time I realise how many (more than 2-3%) contacts of mine were minorities (Pakistan being close to 98% Muslim). And those people range from different religions across the social classes, from manual workers to my teachers (more than one), to a Representative in the National Assembly. I know you may not believe me. Though I agree things need to be a lot better, we have got to change many laws and most important of all let go of, for the lack of a better term; family name pride and concern background (IMO the most damaging thing in Pakistan) which I think has its roots in our ancestor's practice of the caste system as Hindus. I have always thought our elders need to fully convert over. I think the new generation will do a better job. Feel free to disagree.
You mentioned you accept India is not a perfect society, a very common claim by all nations, I mentioned above what bothers me. I have mentioned above what I honestly think and have been saying about the dictatorship you reminded me we have, if you read my posts you would know I don't need that reminder. IMO we Pakistanis are more open than our Indian counter parts when discussing our shortcomings. I hope our counterpart at least acknowledge it more openly among themselves.
Not to defend our dictator, I think Pakistan has done a better job than India would have had it been in Pakistan's position. Pakistan had to stake its position and act against insurmountable odds ever since it was created, be it the cold war, be it the nuclear ambition and now we have this war on terror. India has had luck, it was so called Neutral in the cold war yet democratic on paper and a firm Soviet supporter in action. India had at least one superpower to not only not oppose but help in its nuclear ambitions. Then after the cold war India suddenly cranked up 'World's largest democracy' slogan. And now because of China has gained importance because the only Super Power wants to maintain its status. I think even though India is in no turmoil, it has now a position more clear than ever before. And that in itself means there will soon be a conflict of interests between the factors serving in India's interest right now. I am not sure how India will handle the situation. Pakistan on the other hand has always been the center of action, and has progressed though not remotely close to the aspirations or the potential its people have. So I think for us, Inshallah things will only get better.
About the movies, well entertainment is fine, but when it takes this form, its makes a huge difference in what is accepted as reality by the masses. We don't have millions reading books on these topics or watching real documentaries (I like to do the latter). As sad as it maybe, its true. And when the movies we are talking about are Indian, I think you'd remember in our more relaxed and candid conversations how they get on my nerves. So I hope if you thought I got flared up in my last post, it was not meant to be offensive, its just my incurable allergy.  Smile
And not to become qualify as India centric my post maybe long but I like to deal with all the issues and not just a few chosen ones like most others. I had some time and since no one else was forthcoming with 'the other side' of the story (or as we call it; Truth  Smile ), I thought with so many threads gone unanswered, I should make things clear one more time. I doubt anyone will say anything different or new, so I think I can get back to other things.
Best Regards,
Jawad  Smile
 
trvyyz
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RE: The 1971 War

Sat Mar 10, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 31):
What I mentioned were facts, did ANY of the incidents I mentioned above not take place?

I checked the BBC links and you story is completely off. But if it makes you feel better, you are entitled to live in your paradise of dreams.
Before comparing Pak and Ind, just ask any third party(foreigner) who've been to both the places, what they think of both the countries. May be they will wake you up from your dreams.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The 1971 War

Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 32):
both the countries

I have not yet been in either one, but I can tell you what the general thing is, conveyed by journalists and writers and economists. There general view is that both countries developed very similarily with Pakistan even slightly in the lead until A) India reduced "socialism" and B) Pakistan started to slip into somewhat fundamentalist waters. You can see that even on smaller levels, with secularist quarters of Cairo like el-Mohandesseen flourishing and on the way up and fundamentalist backwaters like Imbaba staying back in decline. The tragic situation on SriLanka with the struggle between two ethnic groups is equally telling. And historically, whether you like the comparison or not, reminds of Europe of 1918-1937. Bitterness, separatism, reliance on old positions, restrictivism, and ethnic or religious fervour in the longer run lead to problems. Few "third party" people have much desire to get into all these matters, out of the knowledge to be flooded and swamped by tons of more or less horrible details usually bad for another side, and to be lectured why it is impossible really to get ahead with those and these.
 
BarfBag
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RE: The 1971 War

Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 33):
I have not yet been in either one, but I can tell you what the general thing is, conveyed by journalists and writers and economists. There general view is that both countries developed very similarily with Pakistan even slightly in the lead until A) India reduced "socialism" and B) Pakistan started to slip into somewhat fundamentalist waters.

That is pretty accurate. Until the mid 1990s Pakistan had a higher per capita income than India. Fewer people, fertile lands (they got the bulk of the irrigated Punjab basin), significant aid inflows from the west all helped. Things changed after the mid-1990s; the Afghan Jihad had the blowback effect of bringing fundamentalism to Pakistan's polity and miltary. The same jihad later precipitated the Soviet Union's collapse, requiring India to reorient itself as well.

By the way, your economic data from an earlier post is out of date. Indian per capita income isn't $450. It is nearly $1000 in nominal terms, and around $4100 in PPP terms. See this article in the Intl Herald Tribune last week: India likely to reach $1 trillion GDP by next year; note that 'next year' refers to the fiscal, which runs until March 2008. In recent years India added ~$120 billion to its GDP each year, i.e. average per capita income grew ~$115 per head. In PPP terms India would be the third largest economy in the world after US and China this year, ahead of Japan.

India's priority is to keep its fast economic growth on track and make its people rich - there's absolutely nothing more critical than sustaining the current 9% GDP growth. Everything else is a distraction we don't need. Pakistan and its endless fixation on the Indian state of Kashmir is irrelevant. Their persistent efforts to foment discontent and disagreement about a closed episode amounts to crab mentality on their part. They'd be better served by focussing on growing their economy instead of bawling at us 24/7 - as exemplified by the Pakistani poster and his longwinded harangues right on this thread. After a point you tend to block them out and ignore them.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 31):
at least you can't have it both ways; staying away and centric

Thats the Problem Most are India centric yet cannot debate facts  Smile

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 31):
I was in fact a bit careful so as not to say something as alien to you as your POW story sounds to me.

If the POV story sounds alien to you.Its you that has to brush up with history Jawad Bhai.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 31):
I think Pakistan has done a better job than India would have had it been in Pakistan's position.

India never got into that position because it chose to be Secular.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 31):
About the movies, well entertainment is fine, but when it takes this form, its makes a huge difference in what is accepted as reality by the masses.

Jawad bhai.Contarary to what you think the Indian Audience can differentiate between Movies,Documentaries & truth.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 31):
I had some time and since no one else was forthcoming with 'the other side' of the story

Its very Important to hear your side of the story.Although its not necessary that its the truth.Thats the reason for a Forum to debate logically.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 34):
India's priority is to keep its fast economic growth on track and make its people rich - there's absolutely nothing more critical than sustaining the current 9% GDP growth. Everything else is a distraction we don't need.

As Usual BarfBag says the Accurate Stuff.To India Economic strength & putting a smile on its citizens faces is the Aim.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: The 1971 War

Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:05 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 34):
Pakistan and its endless fixation on the Indian state of Kashmir is irrelevant.

it is not exactly easy to determine to what extent Pakistan really is "focused" onto the Kashmir matter. When looking into the WEBsites of English language newspapers in Pakistan, my guess is that the secularism<>clericalism matter is a far more important aspect in the economic, social and political development of Pakistan in reality.
 
airxliban
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RE: The 1971 War

Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:06 pm

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 20):
huh!!
So you visited Pakistan?? I have no problems, in fact I cherrish the progress of Bangladesh but I sense some real anti something feeling there, to the point of being outright lying. So I would only ask you to elaborate.

Indeed I did visit Pakistan. As for the elaboration, I found that Bangladesh was ahead of Pakistan socially and I observed the following in Bangladesh which I did not in Pakistan:

1. Lots of women in public
2. Lots of women in public NOT wearing hijabs (basically all of them)
3. Men and women (seemingly unmarried) holding hands, spending time with each other in parks, malls, restaurants
4. Women talking to men
5. Churches and hindu temples
6. Music being played everywhere
7. Artisans on the street
8. Book signings at a local bookstore

I observed the following in Pakistan that I did not in Bangladesh:

1. Shops with armed guards carrying machine guns outside


So based on these observations I should think that it won't be too much of a stretch of the imagination to suggest that Bangladesh is more advanced socially than Pakistan.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:53 pm

Interesting link to 1971 Newspapers

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
comorin
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RE: The 1971 War

Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting Airxliban (Reply 37):
ndeed I did visit Pakistan.

You forgot to mention falling deathly ill at the airport - the Supreme Sacrifice !  Wink
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: The 1971 War

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:57 am

Looks like the Foreign Ministers will be raising the 54 POVs missing issue again.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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