mbj-11
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Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:28 am

I've done a bit of research on the topic , but haven't really gotten a clear understanding of the relationship of both countries. Now this isn't a thread for people who are looking for someone to blast over the topic. I am genuinely curious as to the history and reasons behind Israel's importance to the US. Will those who "know" and can enlighten me please feel free to share the info. Much appreciated.
Jesus is the Christ and he alone saves
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
I've done a bit of research on the topic , but haven't really gotten a clear understanding of the relationship of both countries. Now this isn't a thread for people who are looking for someone to blast over the topic. I am genuinely curious as to the history and reasons behind Israel's importance to the US. Will those who "know" and can enlighten me please feel free to share the info. Much appreciated.

We have generally taken similar stances on certain key issues. Such as Israel itself.

Not that hard, really.

Cheers,
Kyle
How long do I have to climb, up on the side of this mountain of mine?
 
MDorBust
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
I am genuinely curious as to the history and reasons behind Israel's importance to the US.

It's a democracy in a region of... not democracies.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
NAV20
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:31 am

The 'real-politik' is that the Jewish vote in the United States plays a big (in many states, probably decisive) part in deciding who gets into the White House and Congress:-

"According to one scenario, the Jewish vote might still be significant in determining the 2004 presidential election. Nine key states with significant Jewish populations account for 212 electoral votes or 78 percent of the total needed to secure the White House."

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp509.htm
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
MDorBust
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
"According to one scenario, the Jewish vote might still be significant in determining the 2004 presidential election.

The United States population is 2% Jewish.

The highest population density is in New York, at just under 10%.

By comparisson, almost 27% of the nation is Catholic.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
atct
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 2):
It's a democracy in a region of... not democracies.

I agree with this. This isnt a religion bashing thing, but the US was founded by "western" christians. The main basis for the country was Religous Freedom. I agree that we shouldnt support countries that are not represented by the people.

(On the other hand, I believe that people have the government they deserve).

ATCT
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flymia
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 2):
It's a democracy in a region of... not democracies.

That is the reason. If things get bad in the middle east it is very good to have Israel on your side. Israel is a very powerful country for its size and it a very important country for the US to try to keep the Middle East as peaceful as possible.

[Edited 2007-02-27 03:49:59]
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Emirates773ER
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 2):
It's a democracy in a region of... not democracies.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Seriously, that was a joke right?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):

The United States population is 2% Jewish.

And how many of those people are in a position of great influence?
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NAV20
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
The highest population density is in New York, at just under 10%

I was only quoting the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, MDorBust. In any case, the point is that New York State counts for 31 electoral votes - a 10% swing either way would be 'decisive.'
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:01 pm

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
I am genuinely curious as to the history and reasons behind Israel's importance to the US.

I'd suggest reading here for a general overview:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../US-Israel/roots_of_US-Israel.html

Part of the general reason for the strong United States-Israel relationship is the number of influential Americans who are pro-Israel. Just about every politician and influential decision maker in fields affecting United States-Israel relations has travelled to Israel...And travelling to Israel and seeing it firsthand leaves 99% of people being pro-Israel in some form or another...This runs the gambit from Continental Flight Attendants who fly EWR-TLV to special police units who train in Israel.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):
The 'real-politik' is that the Jewish vote in the United States plays a big (in many states, probably decisive) part in deciding who gets into the White House and Congress:-

Except that this theory alone can not explain the US-Israel relationship--The United States and Israel probably have the strongest or second strongest bilateral relationship of any country the US has relations with, and the "Jewish vote" alone simply can not explain that.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 7):
Seriously, that was a joke right?

Care to name another democracy in the Middle East?

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 7):
And how many of those people are in a position of great influence?

Does that matter? Look at the Bush Administration..All of the top people (President, VP, Sec State, Sec Def, etc) are all non-Jews who are very pro-Israel.

Critics of Israel have never gotten over the fact that the US is pro-Israel for reasons other than a vast Jewish conspiracy. But of course it is easier to blame what you don't understand on some ancient stereotype.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
In any case, the point is that New York State counts for 31 electoral votes - a 10% swing either way would be 'decisive.'

Ok, I will grant you that it is very hard to be a politician in New York City and not be pro-Israel. But it still doesn't explain the fact that some of the most pro-Israel politicians are non-Jews with few Jewish constituents...People like Charlie Wilson or Tom DeLay in the past, and Trent Franks or Ileana Ros-Lehtinen today.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
mbj-11
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:06 pm

Thanks for the link

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
Jesus is the Christ and he alone saves
 
MDorBust
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 7):
And how many of those people are in a position of great influence?

All of them.

Every single Jewish person in the United States is in a position of great power so that they might subjugate the masses and use us to their nefarious ends!

 sarcastic 

Get over it.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
In any case, the point is that New York State counts for 31 electoral votes - a 10% swing either way would be 'decisive.'

So could the 38% that constitutes the Catholic vote.

After all, religions do vote in blocks right?

What does your source say about that?

Quote:
Among Jewish voters polled during the 2002 New York governor's race, 47 percent indicated they would consider supporting George W. Bush. A Luntz Research Poll in April 2003 showed that 48 percent of Jews surveyed said they would consider voting for Bush in 2004.

Oh well, there goes that block vote theory of yours.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:17 pm

Quoting ATCT (Reply 5):
The main basis for the country was Religous Freedom.

Please don't fool yourself with this.

The thought that drove the creation of this country was that Europe had become too secular, and that the Puritans radical views on religion were massively out of sync with England and the rest of the "developed" world. The Puritans thought that everyone else in England had "lost their way" by being Catholic, or Protestant, or anything else, so they came here under the banner of "religious freedom" because the English didn't want people of their views around and they were under pressure by the state.

England basically exported us what were their religious zealots of the day, and that's why the United States is so far behind England, France, Germany and Spain in terms of cultural development. That's why they were called "Puritans". It was basically an extremist Christian cult. They never had any idea that we'd be overrun with Jews and Muslims and Taoists and Buddhists, which is why our Constitution and our laws are overrun with Christian lingo that give no thought to the cultural ideals of any other religions.

The actual new concept of the United States, the "main basis" which has made the US the greatest country on the planet is something we take for granted today - real estate. "Personal property" was a foreign concept to the world, and the actual thought of an everyday person owning a piece of land and being able to keep it for themselves, will it to their descendants, and sell it for a profit was unheard of.

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled defense of Zion conversation.

NS
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:43 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):

Care to name another democracy in the Middle East?

There are none, thus my point that why does the US consider all those middle east dictators as ally? Double Standards?
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AA777
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:44 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 6):
Israel is a very powerful country for its size and it a very important country for the US to try to keep the Middle East as peaceful as possible.

And who made them powerful?

-AA777
 
MaidensGator
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:51 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):
The highest population density is in New York, at just under 10%

I was only quoting the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, MDorBust. In any case, the point is that New York State counts for 31 electoral votes - a 10% swing either way would be 'decisive.'

16% of the population of New York is Hispanic....
17% of the population of New York is African American....
52% of the population of New York is female....

The 10% doesn't look quite so "decisive"..... Granted it is a force to be reckoned with, but hardly dominant....
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
gigneil
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:57 pm

Jews control most major American corporations, and some huge percentage of the US media.

Its not the Jews themselves voting that changes the direction.

NS
 
NAV20
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 16):
The 10% doesn't look quite so "decisive"..... Granted it is a force to be reckoned with, but hardly dominant....

Agree that it's open to question whether the US Jewish vote would actually swing en masse over the Israel question, MaidensGator. Personally I'm inclined to doubt that it would.

But what matters is that the politicians FEAR that it could happen. As far as I know, the Democrats are especially vulnerable, because they can currently count on about 70% of the Jewish vote - and they MUST do well in New York and California to have any chance of their candidate getting into the White House. The Reps need the 30% - more if they can get it - and the votes of the 'religious right,' which also has the (to me, regrettable) habit of taking the Bible literally.

What it boils down to is that no presidential candidate DARE profess anything less than 200% support for Israel.......just in case........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
baroque
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:50 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):
Except that this theory alone can not explain the US-Israel relationship--The United States and Israel probably have the strongest or second strongest bilateral relationship of any country the US has relations with, and the "Jewish vote" alone simply can not explain that.

And the reasons go a long way back in US history. There was a recent program relevant to this on ABC (Oz type) but I cannot find it, instead I have a couple of links.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s546326.htm
Wednesdays at 8.30am, repeated at 8.00pm

"Evangelicals for Israel 1 May 2002

Conservative Christian groups in the USA are showing strong sympathies toward Israel, and Israel is glad for the support - in spite of the fact that the evangelical plan for the Holy Land involves the second coming of Christ and the conversion of the Jews. "

There is a transcript of that.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2005/1449546.htm
"Jesus and Jerusalem: Christian Zionists in Israel
Connections between evangelical Christians and the state of Israel have been intensifying over the last few years. As Israeli settlers were being moved out of Gaza a couple of weeks ago, American evangelicals lent their support, prayers and dollars to the cause.

Journalist Rebecca Sinderbrand has been covering the Gaza withdrawal for Newsweek. She grew up in a Jewish family who converted to evangelical Christianity. She recently wrote a series of dispatches for Slate magazine about Christians in Israel."
No transcript, it was before the days of MP3 - oh my gosh, that old, yes, 2005!!

There is a better one lurking in there, but each of about 20 different series are listed separately, and not knowing an exact title I was doing contact searches, but without luck.

The program I was after looks specifically at how more fundamentalist Christian groups in the US have found support for the Zionist movement to be attractive. But the ABC archives do not work as well as Google!!
It is somewhere in here!!
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/
That is Radio National.

If I ever find it mbj-11, I will message you. I have not given up! But the program is not that far from the ideas that Gigneil has in reply 13.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled defense of Zion conversation.

There must be a very contrary person behind the search engine in the ABC because entering "US support for Zionism" tends to give hits for Anti-Zionism. Strange indeed are the ways of the world.
 
flymia
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:57 pm

Quoting AA777 (Reply 15):
And who made them powerful?

The US did, which is even more of a reason to have a such a good and important relationship with the country.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:11 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 14):
There are none, thus my point that why does the US consider all those middle east dictators as ally? Double Standards?

The United States might have "allies" in the Middle East like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, but just about everyone realizes that this is for purely strategic reasons. Israel is the only country in the Middle East with American values and at the end of the day, any country's closest friends will be other countries that share similar values and concerns.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
DL787932ER
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:20 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):

Most of that drivel doesn't merit a response, other than to point out that Puritans were almost nonexistent in a majority of the colonies and had lost most of their influence in the rest almost a century before the American Revolution. But you might want to note:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 13):
"Personal property" was a foreign concept to the world, and the actual thought of an everyday person owning a piece of land and being able to keep it for themselves, will it to their descendants, and sell it for a profit was unheard of.

Private property in various forms, including real estate, has existed for millennia. The legal concept of real property, as in estates in land, started developing in England centuries before the revolution. And as for this:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 17):
Jews control most major American corporations, and some huge percentage of the US media.

Did they sabotage our efforts in the Great War too? You should be ashamed of yourself.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
NAV20
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 21):
Israel is the only country in the Middle East with American values

Not ALL American values, surely? As far as I can gather it'll be a long time before Israel adopts the priniciples of the First Amendment, for a start?  Smile

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 19):
Conservative Christian groups in the USA are showing strong sympathies toward Israel, and Israel is glad for the support - in spite of the fact that the evangelical plan for the Holy Land involves the second coming of Christ and the conversion of the Jews. "

 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 21):

The United States might have "allies" in the Middle East like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, but just about everyone realizes that this is for purely strategic reasons. Israel is the only country in the Middle East with American values and at the end of the day, any country's closest friends will be other countries that share similar values and concerns.

Lets get this straight, the US is allies with all those countries INCLUDING Israel for purely strategic reasons, and because the religious conservatives in the bible belt support the presence of Israel so that the Jews can be converted after the second coming. The "similar values" and "democracy" part is what the Israelis use to make themselves feel better.
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LAXspotter
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:39 pm

Israel is important is the region because it represents the only nation that is stable (other than Egypt or Jordan) key allies of the US. It is an important partner for the United States in terms of maintaining stability and their control on the region for obvious regions. Israel and America have been partners ever since WWII. Israel is the key beneficiary of US foreign aid followed by Egypt. These two countries represent a means by which America can exercise their dominance over their region. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion. I dont know if anyone else here knows about this group called the PROJECT FOR A NEW AMERICAN CENTURY but it is a neo-conservative form of though that outlines how one can get into power. Since a large percentage of Americans are church-goers and a high number of them come together as a giant voting block this school of though advises that one appear as a party for the church-going people with their values  Yeah sure
(just look at Mark Foley). By appearing as the party of religious values, they also act as if they are supporting Israel because of biblical prophecy fulfillment when in reality they are doing it purely for economic reasons. When the region loses its importance economically, Israel will lose support from the USA and will most possibly be overrun by the arab states.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
baroque
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:56 pm

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 24):
NASCARAirforce Reply 24, p

Ta, had not seen that one. A picture beats a thousand words!
 thumbsup 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:28 pm

Democracy in The Middle East.
regds
MEL
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LAXspotter
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:13 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 28):
Democracy in The Middle East.
regds
MEL

youre kidding right?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
andessmf
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:51 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 29):
youre kidding right?

I was going to say the same thing about what you wrote on this reply:

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 26):
 
BigOrange
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 7):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 2):
It's a democracy in a region of... not democracies.



Seriously, that was a joke right?



Quoting RJpieces (Reply 9):

Care to name another democracy in the Middle East?

I think Emirates was trying to say that the idea that Israel is a democracy was a joke, something I tend to agree with
 
agill
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 4):

The United States population is 2% Jewish.

The highest population density is in New York, at just under 10%.

By comparisson, almost 27% of the nation is Catholic.

Pff you must remember that : OMG TEH JOOOS RUNZ T3H WORLD BY USING CHEMTRAILS!!111  Wink
 
AGM100
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:25 am

Democracy
Freedom of religion
Great education and advancments in science
Flourishing arts and diverse lifestyles

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 31):
think Emirates was trying to say that the idea that Israel is a democracy was a joke, something I tend to agree with

Please explain ,,, or do you not witness the tumultuous government shifts every year in Israel. IMO it is the purist form of democracy ever. Party coalition is preeminate , and leaders must do backflips to keep a majority. When they lose political power they simply , call for another election. If they lose , they walk out ! What else do you need ?

It may not be perfect , but a joke ... thats to much
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baroque
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:20 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 33):
It may not be perfect , but a joke ... thats to much

Just a guess, but the suggestion that Israel might not justify the term democracy is that a part of its population might not have the same rights and privileges as the majority. Just a guess mind you!
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:32 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
Just a guess, but the suggestion that Israel might not justify the term democracy is that a part of its population might not have the same rights and privileges as the majority. Just a guess mind you!

Surely you are not familiar with Israeli-Arabs then.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
NAV20
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:56 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 35):
Surely you are not familiar with Israeli-Arabs then.

There is extensive discrimination against Israeli Arabs (indeed, all non-Jews) in Israel:-

http://www.arabhra.org/factsheets/factsheet1.htm

"The Zionist dream is to construct a state which is as Jewish as England is English and France is French. At the same time, this state is to be a democracy on the Western model. Evidently, these goals are incompatible. Citizens of France are French, but citizens of the Jewish state may be non-Jews, either by ethnic or religious origin or simply by choice … To the extent that Israel is a Jewish State it cannot be a democratic state." - Noam Chomsky

I can't for the life of me understand how a state that practises racial and religious discrimination on the scale that Israel does can ever be described as a 'democracy.' Equality before the law is, to my mind, the cornerstone of any democratic system of government.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
cairo
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:42 pm

Quoting Mbj-11 (Thread starter):
I am genuinely curious as to the history and reasons behind Israel's importance to the US.

1. Jews in America through their group that lobbies the US government: www.aipac.com

2. neocons, right-wing militarists, etc... who want to use the "protection" of Israel as an excuse to cause regime change in virtually every nation in the Middle East http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/neocon101.html

3. fundamentalist/evangelical Christians who believe the Jews need to live in Israel in order to satisfy God's will http://www.patrobertson.com/Speeches/IsraelLauder.asp


This is the triumvirate that entirely explains US support of Israel. Without them, Israel would be left on its own.

The absence of these 3 forces in Europe or other industrialized nations explains why the US is usually alone in its flamboyant support of Israel.

Cairo
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:54 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 37):

Have to agree with one each and every one of your points.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
baroque
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:27 pm

Thanks Nav and Cairo, much better than I could have said those points.  checkmark 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:39 pm

Is the Jewish Lobby in the US thgat powerfull.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
baroque
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:24 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 40):
Is the Jewish Lobby in the US that powerful.
regds
MEL

Try
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html
For The Israel Lobby by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt in London Book Review.

For a disputation of the M and W view try
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new.../us_and_americas/article699083.ece

I am not sure that M&W convinced any but the uncommitted and the rebuttal probably left the status quo or arguably a level of concern that an intended scholarly analysis provoked such a furore with Harvard being "forced" to remove its logo from material.

Regards
 
AGM100
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 37):
. Jews in America through their group that lobbies the US government

Excuse for lack of forward thinking leaders.

Another words why dont Arabs have lobbies if that is what it takes ... You guys need leaders that have a platform other than we hate Israel.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 37):
. neocons, right-wing militarists, etc... who want to use the "protection" of Israel

Excuse for lack of population creating political climate to make changes in their own lives and systems.

Are you saying Israel does not require assistance with protection ? I am sure that would great news if that went away.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 37):
3. fundamentalist/evangelical Christians who believe the Jews need to live in Israel in order to satisfy God's will

Their actually may be some truth to this. Its a really shaky excuse but Christians represent a pretty large voting block. So the Christians are to blame for the problems as well.

Cairo I know your pissed and I dont blame you , it all seems damn unfair. But their are alternatives than just blaming others thats all. Arab nations should all be major powers in the world , but their intolerance of Israel has put them at ods with the rest of the world. Israel has as much historical right to the land as anyone does , and that is how the UN perceived it. Israels neighbours constantly fighting this is the cause of this awful stalemate for the last 60 years . Your youth have been taught that their was a great injustice done , and this has stunted generations looking past it. Have thier been injustice on all sides , of course...that is part of human interactions.

It is pretty simple for us in America , Who is most like us ? Israelis or Arab's ,that is the root of the support base here in the US. Terrorism only widens this divide and will in the end keep the good people in Arab speaking countries on the other side of US popular support.
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oly720man
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:04 am

Would there have been an Israel had there not been a WW2 and the genocide therein? Or was it always on the cards, but the way the Jews were treated by the Nazis, amongst others, just brought it forward?
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 36):
There is extensive discrimination against Israeli Arabs (indeed, all non-Jews) in Israel:-

Of course there is discrimination against Israeli Arabs, but need I remind you how Arabs/Muslims are treated in Europe or Australia???????? Have you been to Israel? I have and I've met many Israeli Arabs. Not one of them would trade in their Israeli citizenship for Palestinian one. You really have no right to talk about Israeli-Arab discrimination without having met them or knowing much about them other than stereotypes about Israel.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 36):
Equality before the law is, to my mind, the cornerstone of any democratic system of government.

Surely you are not familiar with the Israeli Supreme Court then.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 40):
Is the Jewish Lobby in the US thgat powerfull.

Yes, it is powerful...But a lobby alone can not explain the significant support for Israel in the US.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 37):
1. Jews in America through their group that lobbies the US government:

As do Arabs...But I don't see you complaining about that.

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 43):
Would there have been an Israel had there not been a WW2 and the genocide therein?

Who knows...Zionism was alive well before WWII, and many of Israel's future leaders were living in Palestine before and during WW2. Many people think that Israel was created right after WWII and that millions of European Jews were shipped there in 1945 but that is not the case.

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 43):
Or was it always on the cards, but the way the Jews were treated by the Nazis, amongst others, just brought it forward?

Inevitably that brought it forward, but most of the foundations for the state were there before 1948.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
baroque
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 44):
need I remind you how Arabs/Muslims are treated in Europe or Australia????????

Perhaps you do need to remind us about Australia and Arabs/Muslims here.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 44):
Who knows...Zionism was alive well before WWII, and many of Israel's future leaders were living in Palestine before and during WW2. Many people think that Israel was created right after WWII and that millions of European Jews were shipped there in 1945 but that is not the case.

You probably need to give us a rundown of the allegiances of the main Jewish groups in Israel during WW II.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 45):
Perhaps you do need to remind us about Australia and Arabs/Muslims here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4522326.stm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 45):
You probably need to give us a rundown of the allegiances of the main Jewish groups in Israel during WW II.

As far as I know, most of them fought for the British. Moshe Dayan, later the famous Israeli defense minister, lost his eye this way.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
NAV20
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 42):
Israel has as much historical right to the land as anyone does

Would you kindly provide some historical evidence of that, AGM100? And I don't mean a few fragments of dubious folklore from the Old Testament.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 42):
Israels neighbours constantly fighting this is the cause of this awful stalemate for the last 60 years .

All the Arab countries concerned, and the Palestinians, have made it clear that they will accept the situation if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders. Why doesn't Israel just do that?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
oly720man
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 46):
As far as I know, most of them fought for the British.

While the British were fighting the Nazis.

Haganah with during the war, against after it
Irgun, seemingly against apart from truce '40 to '43
Lehi/Stern Gang, (definitely) against, including talking to the Nazis about removing Britain from Palestine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
NAV20
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RE: Why Is Israel Important To The US?

Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:00 am

And this is how, in 1946, they thanked the British Army for keeping Rommel out of Palestine and liberating the concentration camps.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/Kingdavid.htm
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

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