9V
Topic Author
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'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:36 am

Barry Reid from Northamptonshire filled up the tank of his Boxster on Valentine's Day. Within hours, the car lost power. He told Sky's Julie Etchingham what happened next. (1min30secs)

VIDEO

"Normally we use Shell Optimax.........."

  


Looks like it was silicone. So I guess they can claim the money back.

[Edited 2007-03-02 18:40:57]
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:39 am

"It's a Porsche, um, did I mention it's a Porsche, yes the local Porsche dealer said something about something. Did I mention it's a Porsche. Yes, it is a Porsche. We had to fill up with peasant fuel from a supemarket, which was quite traumatic because it's a Porsche. If you didn't notice it's a Porsche, I've bought a personalised plate A6 BXR to help remind me. Apparently I'm bald, but I do drive a Porsche."

Barry, you are a twat.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
9V
Topic Author
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 1):
Barry, you are a twat.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
 
ba757
Posts: 2707
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:53 am

Quoting 9V (Thread starter):
petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Porsche's are not cool. You got what you deserved.

Signed,
Jeremy Clarkson
 
antdenatale
Posts: 152
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:53 am

What car was it again, it does not say in the clip?  laughing   laughing   laughing 
 
Stealthz
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:56 am

And been taken for a ride....
The Air Mass sensor is in the inlet upstream of the fuel injection. Did the twat pour the petrol in the aircleaner??

Now putting leaded fuel in can destroy the O2 sensor and the catalytic converters in the exhaust... can you still buy leaded fuel in the UK?
If that happened I would say he got out of it pretty lightly for 400 quid!!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:05 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):
pretty lightly for 400 quid!!

Very lightly, I have a sports car and it almost costs that for a dealer oil change. It sounds like the moron got low octane fuel. It say in your owners manual and on the gas cap not to use low octane fuel. Sounds like he got what he deserved.

Now why it got on the news is totally beyond me. Come on a Porsche boxier is the cheapest Porsche you can buy and it only cost 400 pound to fix. That is what I call a really slow news day. What is next, interviewing people ticked for jaywalking and calling it a crime wave?
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
ba757
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:21 am

Oh yes, I forgot to mention... COCKS BY PORSCHE's.

Signed,
Jeremy Clarkson
 
aloges
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:23 am

Strange... usually it's the Porsche that ruins perfectly good fuel.

Crazy Brits!
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
fbgdavidson
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:27 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 6):
Now why it got on the news is totally beyond me. Come on a Porsche boxier is the cheapest Porsche you can buy and it only cost 400 pound to fix. That is what I call a really slow news day. What is next, interviewing people ticked for jaywalking and calling it a crime wave?

It has been on the news because a lot of petrol in the UK appears to have been causing car problems
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6413357.stm

Quite how this dick got on I'm not sure...was he on commission for the number of times he used the word 'Porsche' in the clip? His behaviour does remind me of a certain a.net member though, except this guy does actually have a Porsche   

[Edited 2007-03-03 00:28:11]
"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:29 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 1):
"It's a Porsche, um, did I mention it's a Porsche, yes the local Porsche dealer said something about something. Did I mention it's a Porsche. Yes, it is a Porsche. We had to fill up with peasant fuel from a supemarket, which was quite traumatic because it's a Porsche. If you didn't notice it's a Porsche, I've bought a personalised plate A6 BXR to help remind me. Apparently I'm bald, but I do drive a Porsche."

Barry, you are a twat.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Quoting BA757 (Reply 7):
Oh yes, I forgot to mention... COCKS BY PORSCHE's.

Only people with small cocks Wink


Dan
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
bill142
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:31 am

Maybe he should have tried running diesel in it instead.
 
woady
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:46 am

This problem is not funny! I put petrol in my car two weeks ago and have nearly been killed twice because of the bloody stuff contaminating my engine. And my car was a runabout. Now I have a new car and wont be going near any supermarket petrol stations for a long time.

Woady
A300-600R, 737-300, 737-800, 757-200, 767-200/300/ER, ERJ145, ATR72
 
RichPhitzwell
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 10:06 am

its funny, cause all petrol runs through the same pipe (regional) here in the states before a truck takes it. adds alittle additive and delivers it to the individual stations. litterally all gas is the same in a particular region. is this different in the UK?
Nonav.com kinda like Whiners except the lights are on and the pimps been paid
 
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jetmech
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:54 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):
And been taken for a ride....
The Air Mass sensor is in the inlet upstream of the fuel injection. Did the twat pour the petrol in the aircleaner??

I don't know why (probably jealousy and sour grapes on my behalf), but it always annoys me when all these people with expensive vehicles seem proud not to have any mechanical comprehension or knowledge of cars whatsoever. Come to think of it, the person who I bought my car off second hand knew nothing about cars either and it also annoyed me; and my car is nothing near as good as a Porsche!

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
dl021
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:10 pm

There seems to be a good bit of penis envy on the part of the non-Porsche owners here.

Why all the animosity over the Porsche? Granted that this guy is inordinately proud of his entry level Porsche....but how many here own anything comparable and are not just exhibiting sour grapes?

Quoting BA757 (Reply 7):
COCKS BY PORSCHE's.

What do you call the guy who can't spell the word"buy"?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
RichPhitzwell
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
What do you call the guy who can't spell the word"buy"?

Bi
Nonav.com kinda like Whiners except the lights are on and the pimps been paid
 
AirTranTUS
Posts: 3313
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:34 pm

Quoting BA757 (Reply 3):
Porsche's are not cool. You got what you deserved.

Signed,
Jeremy Clarkson

 rotfl 

Quoting BA757 (Reply 7):
Oh yes, I forgot to mention... COCKS BY PORSCHE's.

Signed,
Jeremy Clarkson

 rotfl 

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
What do you call the guy who can't spell the word"buy"?

Someone who spends too much time watching Top Gear. There is nothing wrong with that. If it was shown here in the States, I would always be watching it.
I love ASO!
 
sovietjet
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:32 pm

Lol I love the look on a Boxster owner after I smoke him in my 4 door sedan  rotfl 
 
9V
Topic Author
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting Woady (Reply 12):
This problem is not funny!

No it isn't. What's funny is that guy in the clip claiming he normally only uses Shell Optimax but just this once decides to visit the supermarket.

I never use supermarket fuel anyway mainly because the local Esso garage is nearer to our house.
 
skidmarks
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:23 pm

Quoting 9V (Reply 19):
I never use supermarket fuel anyway mainly because the local Esso garage is nearer to our house.

I cant wait to get a choice of fuel when I return to civilisation!! I'd kill to get cheap petrol, even if it is shit stuff! Big grin

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional
 
ltbewr
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:47 pm

Contaminated fuel can be a very serious problem, although usually it occurs at the local vendor from infiltration of water or other materials into the tanks from cracks or other leaks into the storage tanks. I have seen this happen at no-brand as well as major brand stations. In this case it appears that the problem occurred at the refinery or distribution system. There is little difference from the gasoline/petrol from a major brand station vs. from a supermarket or no brand vendor, except for some additives or a point or two of octane.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 13):
its funny, cause all petrol runs through the same pipe (regional) here in the states before a truck takes it. adds alittle additive and delivers it to the individual stations. litterally all gas is the same in a particular region. is this different in the UK?

No, not really.

The entire problem has been traced back to a single depot that services the independants and non oil company affiliates in the entire South East of the country. Tankers fill up at that depot and add additives et al, and then deliver to the individual petrol stations.

Oil company forcourts are filled up from other depots, and by and large they havent had problems as far as has been reported. Its mainly Morrisons and Tescos that have had issues, hence why its been traced back to this one depot.
 
sv2008
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 6):
Very lightly, I have a sports car and it almost costs that for a dealer oil change. It sounds like the moron got low octane fuel. It say in your owners manual and on the gas cap not to use low octane fuel. Sounds like he got what he deserved.

This doesn't apply here - the lowest you can buy in the UK is 95, which is pretty high already compared to many countries, including the US I think. It's unlikely to casue any harm by itself - just maybe very slightly reduced performance.
 
airbusA346
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:33 am

Why are people so against people who buy Porsches, even though that guy was a cock.

Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
ba757
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
What do you call the guy who can't spell the word"buy"?

You pillock it was a typo. Clearly I didn't tap the U key hard enough.  Yeah sure

Adam
 
RichardPrice
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting Sv2008 (Reply 23):
This doesn't apply here - the lowest you can buy in the UK is 95, which is pretty high already compared to many countries, including the US I think.

Ive seen lower than that at supermarket forecourts.
 
L-188
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
Why all the animosity over the Porsche?

You know they are built by Volkswagon.

I take it this happend on a slow news day?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting Sv2008 (Reply 23):

The lowest you can buy in Florida is 87. I'm sure he'll sue.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting BA757 (Reply 25):
You pillock it was a typo. Clearly I didn't tap the U key hard enough

WTF is a pillock? Stop acting like it's my fault that you not only have penis envy but are so physically delicate that you can't manage to push the keys to contact consistently!


 Wink

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 16):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
What do you call the guy who can't spell the word"buy"?

Bi

 rotfl 

Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
Why all the animosity over the Porsche?

You know they are built by Volkswagon.

That's like saying that Jaguars are built by Ford because they own them........more envy-borne sour grapes talking, dude.....

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 18):
Lol I love the look on a Boxster owner after I smoke him in my 4 door sedan

Dude...if you have an Evo or maybe a WRX...or even a Mazdaspeed 3 you can OWN a Boxster in a little stop light meeting.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 17):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
What do you call the guy who can't spell the word"buy"?


Someone who spends too much time watching Top Gear. There is nothing wrong with that. If it was shown here in the States, I would always be watching it.

I think that it shows on BBC America...doesn't it? I'm going to look for it. I'm sort of a car guy myself and I like the Speed Channel.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:54 am

I've gotten shitty gasoline from name-brand stations and great gasoline from no-name stations. I've noticed what really matters is how long it's been since the underground tanks were refilled.

Never buy gasoline from a station where a tanker truck is off-loading into the underground tanks. All the water and sediment already in the underground tanks get agitated and mixes with the fuel. It can take as long as a day for it to settle back to the bottom.

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
Stealthz
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:59 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):
You know they are built by Volkswagon.

Well no they are not, 924 and 944 models were built in Audi factories, the Cayenne is built alongside VW Toureg in a Skoda factory in Bratislava.
The Boxster is built in the Porsche 928 facility in Stuttgart although some additional production is performed by Valmet in Finland.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):
You know they are built by Volkswagon.

That's like saying that Jaguars are built by Ford because they own them

Not true either, Volkswagen doesn't own Porsche. In fact Porsche owns something like 20% or more of Volkswagen

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
ba757
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):
Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 16):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
What do you call the guy who can't spell the word"buy"?

Bi


I didn't notice that before, amusing, but harsh!  Wink
 
sv2008
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:05 pm

RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:15 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 26):

Ive seen lower than that at supermarket forecourts.

I haven't, are you sure? I thought they all had to sell a minimum of 95.

All supermarkets in my area sell 95 and 98, same as a standard garage.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 28):
The lowest you can buy in Florida is 87

and it's probably the same engine sold in the UK as the USA - it just the management system adpats to the lower octane. since the UK is pretty much 95 or 98 the Boxster isn't going to be harmed by the lower octane fuel.

People always to seem to ask in car mags and forums "I bought an Audi 3.4 TDI fsi turbo (or something, usually they don't seem to be sure what car they got), the owners manual says it needs super (98), will it bve damaged by regular (95) fuel?"

In most cases I think it's extremley unlikely, unless you own something really rare like a F430 or SLR, but those aren't everyday cars.
 
RichPhitzwell
Posts: 1285
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:19 am

RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting BA757 (Reply 32):
I didn't notice that before, amusing, but harsh!

Did I win the prize!! Ahh its all fun and games until you drop the soap. I kid, I kid.
Nonav.com kinda like Whiners except the lights are on and the pimps been paid
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:26 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):
can you still buy leaded fuel in the UK?

Not that I know of

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):
Now putting leaded fuel in can destroy the O2 sensor and the catalytic converters in the exhaust...



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 5):
If that happened I would say he got out of it pretty lightly for 400 quid!!

Any dealer that charges 400 quid/750 USD for an O2 sensor should be boycotted.

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 6):
, I have a sports car and it almost costs that for a dealer oil change.

You are kidding right? You pay almost $800 for an oil change?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 15):
There seems to be a good bit of penis envy on the part of the non-Porsche owners here.

Why all the animosity over the Porsche?

It is a weird UK thing that I have never been able to figure out.

Quoting 9V (Reply 19):
What's funny is that guy in the clip claiming he normally only uses Shell Optimax but just this once decides to visit the supermarket.

I find that Shell gas makes my car run like crap.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):
You know they are built by Volkswagon.

No they aren't.

Quoting Sv2008 (Reply 23):
the lowest you can buy in the UK is 95, which is pretty high already compared to many countries, including the US I think.

The UK/EU method for measuring octane is different than that of the US. 95 octane in the UK/EU is the same as 91 octane in the US, which is our highest normally available grade (some states sell 93, some 91). Basically, Europe's lowest grade is our highest.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):
That's like saying that Jaguars are built by Ford because they own them........more envy-borne sour grapes talking, dude.....

Porsche is not owned by VW. They have historical ties because Porsche designed the Beetle and they have shared technology, but Porsche is most definately a different company.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ScarletHarlot
Posts: 4251
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:38 am

Mr. Harlot has a Boxster and it is a great, fun car. The engine sounds amazing...suspension is taut...it is peppy...and there is nothing more fun than driving topless. The CAR, I mean!  Wink

I also assure you that Mr. Harlot is not lacking in his masculinity.  Wow!
But that was when I ruled the world
 
LHRjc
Posts: 1346
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 1):
Barry, you are a twat.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Has anyone on a.net been affected by this ? I normally fill my car at Tesco's (its not a Porsche and my name's not Barry) but I've had a Diesel rental car for a few weeks so it's not affected me.

JC
"Our 319's are very reliable. They get fixed very quickly."
 
sovietjet
Posts: 2547
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:32 am

RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):
Dude...if you have an Evo or maybe a WRX...or even a Mazdaspeed 3 you can OWN a Boxster in a little stop light meeting.

I do in fact have a WRX  Silly
 
RichPhitzwell
Posts: 1285
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:19 am

RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting LHRjc (Reply 37):
Has anyone on a.net been affected by this

Not affected by what happened in the UK, but had a Diesel that took a crap after filling up at a single station... Turns out the station had a wee bit of an issue with moisture in the tank.
Nonav.com kinda like Whiners except the lights are on and the pimps been paid
 
airbusA346
Posts: 7284
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:05 am

RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):

It is called the Volkswagen Group and Porsche own something like 25% and the current Porsche CEO can take over the current Volkswagen CEO's job AFAIK, from what I read in Autocar.

Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):

You are kidding right? You pay almost $800 for an oil change?

Sorry, I made a mistake in the conversion of monetary units. It costs about $350 for the dealer scheduled service. I don't pay that because I do most work myself.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:07 am

Quoting Sv2008 (Reply 33):
and it's probably the same engine sold in the UK as the USA - it just the management system adpats to the lower octane. since the UK is pretty much 95 or 98 the Boxster isn't going to be harmed by the lower octane fuel.

If someone were to put 87 in the Boxster, they could kiss their car good bye, because the engine management system would go kaput and they would hear the knocking from a mile away. The management system wont just adapt because 1) it is programmed not to adapt and 2) the engine will lose significant performance. Now, since the minimum available in the UK is what the car's engine is tuned for (because we have crappy gas in the US), it doesn't really matter what you put in it so long as the anti-knock sensor isn't dialed in to the higher grade.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):
That's like saying that Jaguars are built by Ford because they own them........more envy-borne sour grapes talking, dude.....

Porsche is not owned by VW. They have historical ties because Porsche designed the Beetle and they have shared technology, but Porsche is most definately a different company.

A.....Porsche owns a significant chunk of VW. I see no wthat others have already made this point...so I'm just piling on...

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 31):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 27):
You know they are built by Volkswagon.

Well no they are not, 924 and 944 models were built in Audi factories, the Cayenne is built alongside VW Toureg in a Skoda factory in Bratislava.
The Boxster is built in the Porsche 928 facility in Stuttgart although some additional production is performed by Valmet in Finland.


Not true either, Volkswagen doesn't own Porsche. In fact Porsche owns something like 20% or more of Volkswagen

OK...well, actually this guy is piling on.....  Wink

Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 36):
Mr. Harlot has a Boxster and it is a great, fun car. The engine sounds amazing...suspension is taut...it is peppy...and there is nothing more fun than driving topless. The CAR, I mean!

I also assure you that Mr. Harlot is not lacking in his masculinity.

What.....you wouldn't let him get a car as nice as yours?  Big grin

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 38):
I do in fact have a WRX

Awesome....fun to drive, eh?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:14 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 43):
so I'm just piling on...

 rotfl  rotfl 

Well, you have lost weight, so it probably wouldn't be as uncomfortable.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ScarletHarlot
Posts: 4251
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:15 pm

RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 43):
you wouldn't let him get a car as nice as yours?

Hee hee! Actually, the Boxster came first, then my car...next is a 911 Turbo...so then his car will be better than mine again.  Smile
But that was when I ruled the world
 
Molykote
Posts: 1237
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:21 pm

RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:45 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
If someone were to put 87 in the Boxster, they could kiss their car good bye, because the engine management system would go kaput and they would hear the knocking from a mile away.

This would all depend on the severity of the knocking conditions as determined by a handful of factors (not simply the pure octane rating of the fuel). However, I am certainly not advocating filling a car designed for 93 octane with 87. Some cars designed for premium fuel state (in the owner's manual) that low octane fuels can be used to the detrement of performance. I believe one example off hand is one of the recent Accords (this was discussed in Road&Track perhaps a year or two ago).

I don't know enough about a Boxster to agree with this definitively but I wouldn't be surprised if a Boxster got away with running 87 octane fuel without causing major engine damage in the short term (particularly if low engine loads were the operational norm). On the other hand, someone like the idiot in this story would probably fill up with low octane fuel and lug the engine at 30mph in 5th gear!

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
The management system wont just adapt because 1) it is programmed not to adapt and 2) the engine will lose significant performance.

I don't have explicit knowledge of the Boxster's ECU, but I am unsure of the meaning of your statement that the engine management logic is "programmed not to adapt".

Are you suggesting that the Boxster's operating logic will not retard engine timing if knocking is sensed (due to low octane fuel as one potential cause)?

You state that the engine will lose significant performance. I agree with this statement but am not following the assertion above that "the management system won't just adapt because... the engine will lose significant performance".

Are you suggesting that the loss of engine performance will shift the engine behavior into a realm uncomprehensible by the ECU?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
because we have crappy gas in the US

Just curious: Are you referring to sweet/sour crude and high sulfur content in US fuels or some other issue?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
it doesn't really matter what you put in it so long as the anti-knock sensor isn't dialed in to the higher grade.

Can you elaborate on this statement? An anti knock sensor (as I understand it) serves a function similar to a microphone (in that it simply transmits a "report" of the knock to the engine management system). What the engine management system does with this "report" is a matter for the engine management team.

I do realize that sensitivity may vary from one knock sensor, O2 sensor, MAF sensor, etc. to another. However, the more important consideration (rather than pure voltage output) is how this output is interpreted by the ECU (i.e. while a Bosch 02 sensor may output 220mV under ideal burn conditions, a Denso component may output 300mV. The exact voltage, within reason, is irrelevant provided the overall system architecture is appropriately designed and calibrated in relation to the input signals of its sensory components).

In this regard, I am not sure what you mean by having an anti-knock sensor "dialed in to the higher grade". Regardless of the fuel grade used, this sensor is simply transmitting a "report" of self ignition. I would not expect this noise signature to differ meaningfully (as far as this sensor is concerned) based upon fuel grade. To use a rough analogy, an exhaust temperature sensor is simply providing a signal to the ECU (regardless of fuel type, atmospheric conditions, or engine load). The ECU (rather than the knock sensor or exhaust temp senor) will manage such parameters and others as appropriate.

Although sensitivity of one knock sensor to the next my vary (and will be addressed by considering gain factors as I note above), the larger point I make here is that the knock sensor is a "dumb" component. Presumably, the sensitivity and report capabilites of an OEM knock sensor are selected to operate comfortably in the knock severity region of concern to a given engine (regardless of what caused the knock). Just as a strain gauge or thermometer doesn't care what stress or heat source is causing its parameter reading, the knock sensor doesn't care what cause exists for the audible/vibration signature within its reporting capabilities.

I'm "freeballing" some of my comments here on ECU operation. It's been 5 years since I did any engine management work on a reciprocating engine (FSAE car development) - I've worked with jet engines after leaving school (obviously a different animal), so perhaps I will stand corrected on some of my comments here.
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N1120A
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:22 pm

Quoting Molykote (Reply 46):
In this regard, I am not sure what you mean by having an anti-knock sensor "dialed in to the higher grade". Regardless of the fuel grade used, this sensor is simply transmitting a "report" of self ignition. I would not expect this noise signature to differ meaningfully (as far as this sensor is concerned) based upon fuel grade.

Certain cars will develop substantial knock simply by the addition of low octane gas. That is what I meant.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 46):
Are you suggesting that the loss of engine performance will shift the engine behavior into a realm uncomprehensible by the ECU?

Sort of. While the ECU on a performance car is almost certainly able to comprehend that there is lower quality fuel in the car but engine performance will be at such a level that the ECU essentially thinks the car is broken. A really interesting article was published a few years ago on the effects of low octane gas on performance cars. Some, including the BMW M3 they tested, ran so poorly that they had a hard time running dynomometer tests to determine what the power loss was.
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Molykote
Posts: 1237
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RE: 'petrol Ruined My Porsche'

Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:31 pm

Quoting Molykote (Reply 46):
Are you suggesting that the loss of engine performance will shift the engine behavior into a realm uncomprehensible by the ECU?



Quoting N1120A (Reply 47):
Sort of. While the ECU on a performance car is almost certainly able to comprehend that there is lower quality fuel in the car but engine performance will be at such a level that the ECU essentially thinks the car is broken. A really interesting article was published a few years ago on the effects of low octane gas on performance cars. Some, including the BMW M3 they tested, ran so poorly that they had a hard time running dynomometer tests to determine what the power loss was.

This engine behavior isn't surprising but (without deeper knowledge of the article) it's apparent that the heavy engine loads induced by the dyno were the straw (more like lead pipe) that broke the camel's back.

The normal loads endured by most engines during routine driving are so far below these as to be laughable. As an example, I have attached a data set from my car (taken in December 2006). This data was acquired with the CarChip data logger that interfaces with the OBDII port.

I haven't imported data yet apart from this single test set. (I haven't had the time or inclination to play with it). Nevertheless, this is a brief trip that I took in order to see a snapshot of how my car looks under a number of operating conditions (the time scale got cut off in my screen capture). As such, this test run included gentle and hard acceleration. The one region of the graph spiking above 60% engine load was taken during deliberate hard acceleration on a slightly inclined section of 4 lane road. My assertion that this was an atypical burst of hard acceleration is backed up by the quick drop in engine load (down to several percent) as I eased off the throttle.

Big version: Width: 1280 Height: 800 File size: 95kb


If you were to put a my car on a dyno this graph would show a much more severe duty cycle. Under most knocking conditions, the engine load is the "trigger" parameter that causes knocking to begin. Although knocking is ultimately caused by a combination of factors, the engine load is the most immediately variable and that which is most under the driver's control (this is backed up by cautionary notes in some owner's manuals where premium/regular fuels are discussed).

If low grade fuel is used, obviously the engine capabilities are reduced to levels well below those for which the engine was designed. However, I would be surprised to see a Boxster become undriveable and exhibit enormous pinging under garden variety (say commuting) operating conditions simply due to the use of regular gas.

This is in response to your assertion:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
If someone were to put 87 in the Boxster, they could kiss their car good bye, because the engine management system would go kaput and they would hear the knocking from a mile away.

For what it's worth I use 93 octane in all of my cars so I'm certainly not advocating the use of inferior gasoline (but rather in disagreement that a Boxster would be destroyed by the use of low grade gas under all non-sporting operating conditions). I'm assuming that someone buying 87 gas has no sporting pretensions  Smile

I'm not trying to drag this out or hijack this thread but rather be complete in my responses.
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