iamcanadian
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Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:39 am

The following is a blog entry I ran across that definitely caught my attention:

Charlie Brooker
November 27, 2006
The Guardian

Scientology is a spoof religion followed by several high-profile Hollywood stars, every single one of whom is doing it for a bet just to see how long they can fool Tom Cruise.

Advanced followers of Scientology believe an alien ruler called Xenu brought his people to Earth 75m years ago, gathered them round a volcano and obliterated them with a series of nuclear blasts; their displaced souls are responsible for many of mankind's ills.

This is hilariously implausible and richly deserving of open derision, unlike, say, the belief that a man who got nailed to a couple of planks more than 2,000 years ago is your best friend and saviour.

When not being laughed at, Scientology is viewed with suspicion; many members of the public consider it a sinister cult hell-bent on gathering as much money, power, and influence as possible, unlike all other religious movements, every single one of which deserves forelock-tugging respect and unquestioning indulgence of its every crackpot whim.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some might say that this article is a witty and intelligent piece, filled with thought-provoking facts; drawing revolutionary parallels and exposing the truth for all. Others might say this is a sad attempt at cheapening and degrading the Christian faith, insulting millions of people worldwide.

I'm a part of the latter. To even try and compare, let alone EQUATE, Christianity and Scientology is inane and ignorant. Now, I'm not one to judge which religions are worthy of being called a "real religion", but I think I'm entitled to say that Christianity and Scientology (and even radical CULTS) are not on the same level.

Yes, I know it's supposed to be *humourous*, but when you start ridiculing a religion that's been around for 2000 years, with archeological and recorded evidence, the same way you ridicule a "religion" that's been around for 55 years invented by a science fiction writer, you're out of line.
Shut up and calculate.
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:47 am

Scientology always smacked of nonsense to me, but, to be fair, and please don't be offended (because, after all, my beliefs have nothing to do with yours), all organized religion does that to me to a degree.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
MDorBust
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Thread starter):
Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

At least in Stranger in a Strange Land.. Which is grounded in reality about as much as Scientology is.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Thread starter):
I'm a part of the latter. To even try and compare, let alone EQUATE, Christianity and Scientology is inane and ignorant. Now, I'm not one to judge which religions are worthy of being called a "real religion", but I think I'm entitled to say that Christianity and Scientology (and even radical CULTS) are not on the same level.

Why, exactly?

I don't go around ridiculing people's religions at all. But I don't believe in it either.

To someone like me, Scientology seems just about as plausible as Christianity. Which is to say, neither sounds very plausible.

It seems to me that at one time or another, every religious sect must have been a radical new concept. Just think about it - the ancient Egyptians could have been looking at Christ and his followers and thinking, "These people's religion can't compare to our religion, which is 2,000 plus years old!"

Anyway, not trying to start an argument. The goddamn snow is depressing me and making me question everything  Smile
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
disruptivehair
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:33 am

To me, all religions are equally ridiculous. Then again, there's something to be said for the religious. Though misguided, they're often more content and less anxious than their atheist counterparts.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Thread starter):
with archeological and recorded evidence

Oh you mean like Jesus remains?

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 4):
all religions are equally ridiculous

 yes  God Might exist, but the Bible, Koran et al are all  redflag 
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Yellowstone
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 5):
God Might exist, but the Bible, Koran et al are all

That depends on how you are reading them. As literal history - yeah, they're not at all accurate. As documents that reveal the culture and society of their writers - highly useful. As texts with a deeper meaning that can guide how you live your life - varies based on the individual.

I tend to view Scientology as a cult, and I can certainly see why some people might consider Christianity to be just as credible. Personally, as a Christian, I consider my religion to be more valid because of the fundamentals it teaches - care for the downtrodden, universal brotherhood and love, etc. That seems to be a lot more meaningful than a sci-fi writer's imaginings of prehistoric aliens.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Thread starter):
Advanced followers of Scientology believe an alien ruler called Xenu brought his people to Earth 75m years ago, gathered them round a volcano and obliterated them with a series of nuclear blasts; their displaced souls are responsible for many of mankind's ills.

And Christians believe that an alien being called God created the world in six days, and took a break on the seventh. He created man and woman, then persecuted them with plagues. . .
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:04 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 7):
And Christians believe that an alien being called God created the world in six days, and took a break on the seventh. He created man and woman, then persecuted them with plagues. . .

Do not assume that the beliefs of fundamentalists accurately reflect the views of Christians in general. I'd guess a majority of Christians in the US do not buy into the literal 7 day creation story. On the other hand, if you look at allegorically, the writer got the order almost right...
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:30 am

Nothing on you PERSONALLY as you gave a good response.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 6):
fundamentals it teaches - care for the downtrodden, universal brotherhood and love, etc

Yeah all those great qualities exhibited by the alleged Christians running for office  Yeah sure
From what I have seen time and time again Christianity is a poorly veiled excuse for 'sinning' because all sins are forgiven. EVERY Christian I have TRIED to learn from positively has at one time or another made the statment 'do as I say not as I do'. If All Christians turned around tomorrow and said they were sorry, would give up their witch hunts against homosexuality and forget about bombing abortion clinics then I might start to think they are for real. Until then it's all  redflag 
PS Most other religions are as bad.
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:46 am

Any "religion" that has a celebrity centre (Scientology) has got to be the one to join and all adhere to its doctrine. It's probably popular with "famous" people, so this way they can worship with others of their kind (other "famous" people) and not commoners.

Religion is a man-made representation of faith. Nothing more.
You can't cure stupid
 
TedTAce
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 10):
Religion is a man-made representation of faith. Nothing more.

Perfect  thumbsup 
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MKEdude
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:27 pm

Quoting Iamcanadian (Thread starter):
To even try and compare, let alone EQUATE, Christianity and Scientology is inane and ignorant.

What, so everyone elses shit stinks, but yours smells like a bed of roses?  sarcastic  Who says religion and irony cannot co-exist!

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 3):
To someone like me, Scientology seems just about as plausible as Christianity. Which is to say, neither sounds very plausible.

 checkmark  It's all about which myth you find to be more soothing, to each their own.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 10):
Religion is a man-made representation of faith. Nothing more.

This is what it really comes down to. The bottom line is that nobody has all the answers, and anybody who claims that they do is either delusional, a charlatan, or just too dense to ask any questions.

Now I am not saying that there is no god. In fact I believe that it is more than likely that there is something greater than us out there somewhere. But for man to understand the true nature of "god" would be akin to a golden retriever understanding nuclear physics. There are just some things that are beyond our comprehension, and any attempt to try amounts up to fairy tales, nothing more.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
bezoar
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RE: Choose Your Faith

Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:49 pm

Well, I see this thread is yet another opportunity to bash those that of faith by those who are so inclined to do so. The bashers are free to express their opinions, of course. They may go ahead and consider all religions as equally insane or misguided. They may base any notion of God on what they believe to know about those who claim to have faith. They may lump all Christians together as one. It is their right to express their opinions.

However, from where I stand such commentary reflects a moral and intellectual flaccidity as great as those who mindlessly hide behind their faith. If folks are truly interested in discourse, one has to be truly interested in learning and shed the bullying stance.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 13):
Well, I see this thread is yet another opportunity to bash those that of faith by those who are so inclined to do so

Look at it as a way to express why you think otherwise.

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 13):
The bashers are free to express their opinions, of course.

As are you.

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 13):
If folks are truly interested in discourse, one has to be truly interested in learning and shed the bullying stance.

Having an opinion is not bullying. It is neither right or wrong. Just that. Maybe people draw their conclusions from their interest in learning and chose another direction on the matter.
You can't cure stupid
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:06 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 9):
EVERY Christian I have TRIED to learn from positively has at one time or another made the statment 'do as I say not as I do'.

When have I done that, Ted? What, I've brought nothing positive to the table?

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 9):
would give up their witch hunts against homosexuality

Witch hunts?  confused 

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 9):
and forget about bombing abortion clinics

 checkmark 

-R
Living the American Dream
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:49 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 9):
Yeah all those great qualities exhibited by the alleged Christians running for office

I've never quite been able to understand how both President Bush and I can consider ourselves Methodists and yet hold such opposite views on so many issues.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 9):
From what I have seen time and time again Christianity is a poorly veiled excuse for 'sinning' because all sins are forgiven.

Personally, I think most Christians are too focused on what God will think of them after they die and not focused enough on creating God's kingdom on Earth while they are among the living, which is what Jesus was really talking about, IMO.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 9):
EVERY Christian I have TRIED to learn from positively has at one time or another made the statment 'do as I say not as I do'.

I think you'll get that sentiment from anyone, albeit more so from self-righteous people of all strains. We all have failings that we would prefer that we and others would not exhibit, so it is natural that we might advise people to do something that we ourselves do not. I don't think that's hypocritical, as long as we ourselves are also trying to change.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 9):
If All Christians turned around tomorrow and said they were sorry, would give up their witch hunts against homosexuality and forget about bombing abortion clinics then I might start to think they are for real.

The problem is that only a small minority of Christians are like this. I don't think it's fair to expect all Christians to apologize for the misdeeds of the minority. I also don't expect anyone to apologize for their personal beliefs, e.g. on homosexuality, if they aren't forcing them on others. Incidentally, I really don't get the church's official stance on homosexuality. If God is a god of love, then how can God condemn a loving relationship based on what parts the lovers have downstairs?

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 12):
This is what it really comes down to. The bottom line is that nobody has all the answers, and anybody who claims that they do is either delusional, a charlatan, or just too dense to ask any questions.

Now I am not saying that there is no god. In fact I believe that it is more than likely that there is something greater than us out there somewhere. But for man to understand the true nature of "god" would be akin to a golden retriever understanding nuclear physics. There are just some things that are beyond our comprehension, and any attempt to try amounts up to fairy tales, nothing more.

Couldn't agree more. Almost by definition, it is impossible for us to fully understand a higher power. We can only make decisions on what we think the higher power wants. Another reason why fundamentalists who have total belief are off-base.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:35 pm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 15):
When have I done that, Ted?

When have I hung out with you and tried to understand your religion through your eyes?  Smile It's possible you could be an exception, but it's easy to project a non hypocritical aura online. Just as it's easy to trample something people covet.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 16):
Personally, I think most Christians are too focused on what God will think of them after they die and not focused enough on creating God's kingdom on Earth while they are among the living, which is what Jesus was really talking about, IMO.

Excellent point.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 16):
self-righteous people of all strains.

With the exception of dicators, I see very few non-religious people who easily fall into the bin of the self-righteous without a bible in their hand.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 16):
I don't think it's fair to expect all Christians to apologize for the misdeeds of the minority.

No, it isn't. But I do think they ought to be a hell of a lot quicker in distancing themselves fom sinners. Why anyone will give Ted Hagggard another dime for anything then performing labor at a secular company is beyond me. I'm not saying he should be excommunicated, I'm just saying his days making money as a preacher should be LONG over.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 16):
If God is a god of love, then how can God condemn a loving relationship based on what parts the lovers have downstairs?

 yes 
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Beaucaire
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:37 pm

The moment all monotheistic religions agree on one and only god- that moment would be a great step forward for humankind.
But unless this happens,religions are just a man-made tool to divide,agress,lie,supress,intimidate women (!!!) and make profit at the cost of the stupid.
The misery of many women in islamic countries,the raging wars throughout centuries,the arrogance of a pope who still lives in dark ages -nothing really very appealing that speaks for any religion.
Nothing against spirituality - but that has nothing to do with religion.
Has nobody ever brought up the question ,why all religions are a matter of male -dominance !
If god existed really,why would he have to be considered as a male matter rather than female or animal matter ,,,
Sometime it's very simple questions that put philosophies in front of insurmountable answers..
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
bezoar
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 18):
The moment all monotheistic religions agree on one and only god - that moment would be a great step forward for humankind. But unless this happens,religions are just a man-made tool to divide, agress, lie, supress, intimidate women (!!!) and make profit at the cost of the stupid.

Mankind has the amazing ability to take anything and make it 'work' to his or her benefit, whether it be religion, science, the workplace, politics, whatever. It's supportive evidence that mankind has some rather significant flaws.

I'd hypothesize that if everyone agreed on the same god (God?) that folks would still tend to do this. And I doubt it would be any different if everyone agreed that there was no god.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 13):
Well, I see this thread is yet another opportunity to bash those that of faith by those who are so inclined to do so. The bashers are free to express their opinions, of course. They may go ahead and consider all religions as equally insane or misguided. They may base any notion of God on what they believe to know about those who claim to have faith. They may lump all Christians together as one. It is their right to express their opinions.

However, from where I stand such commentary reflects a moral and intellectual flaccidity as great as those who mindlessly hide behind their faith. If folks are truly interested in discourse, one has to be truly interested in learning and shed the bullying stance.

Well, I've only seen one post that might be construed as "bashing" religion. So your post just sorta sounds like a cop-out from participating in the thread.

And, by the way, if you're going to call yourself a Christian (or Muslim, or Hindu, or Jew, whatever), you have to expect to be lumped in with other Christians (Muslims, Hindus, Jews...). That's not to say that you're all the same; but you're all taking part in the same overall set of ideas. If you weren't, then why would you call yourself Christian?
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:17 pm

I wonder if it's time to upgrade their fables. Those DC8's are getting pretty old.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
iamcanadian
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 12):
What, so everyone elses shit stinks, but yours smells like a bed of roses?

What I'm saying is, you can't say Scientology and Christianity are based on (essentially) the *same* central tenets of belief.

Scientology was established *originally* as a method of self-help. Christianity took off with the tenet "Go forth and make disciples of all nations." and "Love your neighbour as yourself".

Just looking at the original philosophies of the religions is clear as to where they both stand, and how dissimilar they really are.
Shut up and calculate.
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 4):
Then again, there's something to be said for the religious. Though misguided, they're often more content and less anxious than their atheist counterparts.

You've left out a significant portion of the population: those who are spiritual, but do not adhere to the tenets of any religion. I am in no way religious nor am I in any way atheistic.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting Iamcanadian (Thread starter):
This is hilariously implausible and richly deserving of open derision, unlike, say, the belief that a man who got nailed to a couple of planks more than 2,000 years ago is your best friend and saviour.



Quoting TedTAce (Reply 5):
Oh you mean like Jesus remains?

Historians agree that a man named Jesus actually existed and walked around Judea in the First Century preaching, and had so many followers that the Romans considered him a threat and executed him. That is all historical fact. Fact that Historians can PROVE. Note I chose my words very carefully as historians do in the historical study of early Christianity.

"Archeology (and history) is the search for Fact, not truth. If you want truth Dr. Tyree's class is right down the hall."

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 6):
That depends on how you are reading them. As literal history - yeah, they're not at all accurate. As documents that reveal the culture and society of their writers - highly useful. As texts with a deeper meaning that can guide how you live your life - varies based on the individual.

Very true. As literal history the Old Testament is not very accurate however, it is not any more inaccurate then some of the oral histories we have of other cultures. As for the New Testament The Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles are written with a historical context in mind. The author gives names and dates and tries to put Jesus' life in the context of the Roman world, in this regard Luke and Acts are very accurate and help historians date what actually occurred.

As documents that reveal the sociology of Jewish culture and to some extent Roman culture the Bible is actually a very good source. Teasing out what can be found to be Fact and what is not is why professionals spend careers pouring over the Bible. Remember, the Iliad was considered complete myth until Heinrich Schliemann found the city.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 7):
And Christians believe that an alien being called God created the world in six days, and took a break on the seventh. He created man and woman, then persecuted them with plagues

See this is the kind of ignorance that comes from arrogance that I dislike. First not all Christians think the world was created in six days. But for an ancient people to try and understand how the world was created it worked. As an allegory for Evolution and the Big Bang it still works. One doesn't HAVE to be unscientific to be religious nor be atheist to be scientific.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 8):
Do not assume that the beliefs of fundamentalists accurately reflect the views of Christians in general. I'd guess a majority of Christians in the US do not buy into the literal 7 day creation story. On the other hand, if you look at allegorically, the writer got the order almost right...

Welcome to my RU list Yellowstone.

As for Scientology, I think it is a ridiculous cult, it will remain a cult for a long time to come.

I put great stock in Anthony F.C. Wallace's theories on religion.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
TheCol
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 9):
From what I have seen time and time again Christianity is a poorly veiled excuse for 'sinning' because all sins are forgiven.

Most Christians believe that forgiveness doesn't come unless people are truly sorry for their transgressions. If I remember correctly, the Bible also states that people are to suffer the consequences of their actions, regardless of their repentance or not.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
MKEdude
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 22):
Quoting MKEdude (Reply 12):
What, so everyone elses shit stinks, but yours smells like a bed of roses?

What I'm saying is, you can't say Scientology and Christianity are based on (essentially) the *same* central tenets of belief.

I never did. But from the outside looking in it is not much of a stretch to go from believing in a half god half man who was born of a virgin, performed miracles, was executed, and came back from the dead; to believing that aliens colonized this planet, killed a bunch of people, and it is those people's dead spirits that cause all misery and suffering. Like I said before...

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 12):
It's all about which myth you find to be more soothing, to each their own.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
LogansGirl
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 24):
Historians agree that a man named Jesus actually existed and walked around Judea in the First Century preaching, and had so many followers that the Romans considered him a threat and executed him. That is all historical fact. Fact that Historians can PROVE. Note I chose my words very carefully as historians do in the historical study of early Christianity.

Recommended reading: The Jesus Mysteries, Was The Original Jesus a Pagan God by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy.
I Love CastleIsland!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 26):
I never did. But from the outside looking in it is not much of a stretch to go from believing in a half god half man who was born of a virgin, performed miracles, was executed, and came back from the dead; to believing that aliens colonized this planet, killed a bunch of people, and it is those people's dead spirits that cause all misery and suffering. Like I said before...

 checkmark 

Quoting LogansGirl's Other Info: (Reply 27):
I love Castle Island!!!

I am truly sorry.  Wink
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
LY744
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Thread starter):
To even try and compare, let alone EQUATE, Christianity and Scientology is inane and ignorant. Now, I'm not one to judge which religions are worthy of being called a "real religion", but I think I'm entitled to say that Christianity and Scientology (and even radical CULTS) are not on the same level.

So if a Scientologist believes in his religion just as hard as you believe in yours, how is he wrong and you're right?


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
iamcanadian
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 29):
how is he wrong and you're right?

Could you point out where I said that?
Shut up and calculate.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 30):
Could you point out where I said that?

Not quite in the same words, but:

Quoting Iamcanadian (Thread starter):
I'm a part of the latter. To even try and compare, let alone EQUATE, Christianity and Scientology is inane and ignorant. Now, I'm not one to judge which religions are worthy of being called a "real religion", but I think I'm entitled to say that Christianity and Scientology (and even radical CULTS) are not on the same level.

Yes, I know it's supposed to be *humourous*, but when you start ridiculing a religion that's been around for 2000 years, with archeological and recorded evidence, the same way you ridicule a "religion" that's been around for 55 years invented by a science fiction writer, you're out of line.

Funny enough, you were actually the one sort of comparing the two religions.

Not trying to bash you, though. To each his/her own.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
iamcanadian
Posts: 704
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 31):
Funny enough, you were actually the one sort of comparing the two religions.

Was I? Then what was this:

Quoting Article (Reply 1):
unlike, say, the belief that a man who got nailed to a couple of planks more than 2,000 years ago is your best friend and saviour.

It was not I that chose to compare the two.

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 31):
Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 30):
Could you point out where I said that?

Not quite in the same words, but:

Now you're just interpreting my words the way you *want* to hear them.  sarcastic 

I refrained from even insinuating that Christanity was "better", rather, I explained that they cannot be compared. As the old saying goes: It's like comparing apples and oranges.
Shut up and calculate.
 
LogansGirl
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:24 am

Thanks VikkyVik!  veryhappy 

The premise of the mythology of Christianity is a resurrecting God-man, which the Egyptians had been imitated on by the Greeks. Dionysus and Bacchus are credited with the same "miracles" as Jesus (resurrecting the dead and turning water into wine respectively). I'm sure there were as many men named Jesus back then as there are in Mexico right now. Jesus, Joseph and Joshua were like John, Sean, and Juan. All three figures represented the three faces of God. There is a method to the madness the Catholic church tried to control. Do not mistake me. I have nothing but love for Catholics, and I fully realize that without the Catholic church the ritual of Mass would have been long lost. All I'm saying is: all the confusion in the modern era is directly related to the propaganda of greedy Popes in the first and second centuries C.E.
I Love CastleIsland!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
LY744
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:30 pm

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 32):
As the old saying goes: It's like comparing apples and oranges.

Well there you go. "It's like comparing apples to oranges". Why is Christianity apples and Scientology oranges? How are they really different?

I may be drunk, but I'm not THAT drunk!


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
iamcanadian
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 34):
How are they really different?



Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 22):
Scientology was established *originally* as a method of self-help. Christianity took off with the tenet "Go forth and make disciples of all nations." and "Love your neighbour as yourself".



Quoting Iamcanadian (Thread starter):
when you start ridiculing a religion that's been around for 2000 years, with archeological and recorded evidence, the same way you ridicule a "religion" that's been around for 55 years invented by a science fiction writer
Shut up and calculate.
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:40 pm

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 35):
Christianity took off with the tenet "Go forth and make disciples of all nations." and "Love your neighbour as yourself

So why do so many Christians support the death penalty?
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
Halcyon
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:35 pm

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 36):

So why do so many Christians support the death penalty?

Well, if my neighbor is evil, I cannot go out and "slay"him myself. The best I can do is tell the government which I am subject to, or eliminate him in self defense. If he's a bad apple and gets caught, the Bible does not limit the government in its right to terminate him. I agree with this on a personal level too. There are some people who won't rehabilitate but might possibly escape.

Off to bed now,
Lucas
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:02 pm

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 36):
So why do so many Christians support the death penalty?

Halcyon gave the answer from one perspective. Also, many Christians, including the Catholic Church, morally oppose the death penalty. As I see it, the question boils down to "what would Jesus do," and we all know about his run-in with capital punishment!
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
andessmf
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:04 pm

Not to pick on you, but the following statement is misleading to an extreme.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 18):
The moment all monotheistic religions agree on one and only god- that moment would be a great step forward for humankind.

The great monotheistic religions already believe in the same God.

Judaism is basically the Old Testament.

Christianity is the Old Testament and New Testament.

Islam has the Koran, but in Islam Jesus and Mohammed are considered to be prophets, except that Mohammed is the last prophet.

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 26):
But from the outside looking in it is not much of a stretch to go from believing in a half god half man who was born of a virgin, performed miracles, was executed, and came back from the dead; to believing that aliens colonized this planet, killed a bunch of people, and it is those people's dead spirits that cause all misery and suffering.

I take many a things with a grain of salt, and read history and nerd subjects for the pure joy. And I can say this: I have never seen a subject that has more lies stuck into it than religion. There are many who completely misinterpret and change what the original writings and tenets were all about to fit their own purposes.
 
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ManuCH
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 24):
Historians agree that a man named Jesus actually existed and walked around Judea in the First Century preaching, and had so many followers that the Romans considered him a threat and executed him. That is all historical fact. Fact that Historians can PROVE.

The fact Jesus existed might be true. But nobody knows if what he was preaching was true as well. He might have been a charismatic guy who happened to be able to catch many followers' attention. Remember - when you're poor and don't have anything to lose, you'll believe anything hoping your future will be brighter.

IMHO that's how religions all got started - out of desperation, needing to believe in something greater, to have a reason to keep on living. It's human nature, it's normal. Then the word spreads and many people believe in it, because it makes you "feel good".

Everyone should be free to believe what (s)he wants, if they only keep it to themselves (as in "don't make political propaganda"). And that's why I've started to hate some of those white/purple dressed guys in Rome who try to influence Italy's (and other country's) political decisions: a country's law should be none of the church's business! I'll stop bashing the catholic church (as an entity, not their followers) the day they stop slowing down society with their obsolete thoughts (others already mentioned them).
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
 
bezoar
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:43 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 40):
But nobody knows if what he was preaching was true as well.

There's actually a fair number of people, including myself, who have no doubts that what He said is true. Charismatic guys do not generally sacrifice their lives in an attempt to be accepted.

Either Jesus was a fraud, or was insane, or He was who He said He was. If you believe either of the first two choices, you MUST doubt the veracity of what He preached. If you believe the latter, you must hang on to what He said.

Why would Jesus' closest followers have abandoned Him after He was arrested, and later ALL be willing to sacrifice their own lives to spread the Gospel? Something fairly dramative must have happened to change their minds, and that event would have been knowledge of the resurrection and the infusion of the Holy Spirit.

Is this mysterious and fantastic to believe? Certainly.(That Easter has been linked to images of a bunny hopping around laying eggs doesn't help.) But for me to believe that the universe or life or mankind exists at all without God is even more of a stretch IMHO.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 40):
But nobody knows if what he was preaching was true as well. He might have been a charismatic guy who happened to be able to catch many followers' attention. Remember - when you're poor and don't have anything to lose, you'll believe anything hoping your future will be brighter.

IMHO that's how religions all got started - out of desperation, needing to believe in something greater, to have a reason to keep on living. It's human nature, it's normal. Then the word spreads and many people believe in it, because it makes you "feel good".

You have almost but not quiet summed up the Anthony F.C. Wallace's theory on religion and it's role in society. People do turn to religion when they are desperate. In Wallace's theory if the society is meeting the needs of most of the people in the society then any new religion will remain a cult. (Scientology in Western Society for example) This does not mean that individuals who feel society is not meeting their needs will not look (or create) new religions looking for what meets those needs. It just means that the new religion will remain a minority.

If a Society breaks down and begins to fail to meet the needs of people more people will turn to religion. If a faith doesn't give them what they need, it will fail along with the rest of society and people will continue to look. This is what happened in Early Christianity. Roman society failed to meet the needs of women and the poor and slaves, which is where it spread most rapidly. As Roman society broke down over the next 800 years or so the Church grew.

When a society breaks down completely the Church begins to offer more answers to society's ills getting more and more involved in secular politics. Again look at the Church during the middle ages, as the Roman Empire disintegrated the responsibility from maintaining order fell more and more to the Church. Many modern people are uncomfortable with this, and blame the Church for being greedy or blame it for some kind of power grab. But actually it was the only institution in which people had any faith in to maintain some kind of order. Think this can't happen now? Look at the Taliban in Afghanistan.

As secular institutions gradually re-invent themselves and are able to retake power religion begins to subordinate itself once again. Often this can be violent. But the religion that tries to hold on the power too long after the secular institutions regain trust from the people will be discredited and destroyed. (Taliban are a great example of this as well)

Religion then acts as the moral compass of the secular institutions. Which is its mature form.

That's Anthony F.C. Wallace's theory of the progression of religion. It is incomplete I left some out but the basic gist is there. Religion begins as a crutch for society. It helps to maintain through trauma. Mature religions then back off and offer a moral guide.

Cults ( like Scientology) spring up all the time, and have followers. Sometimes they progress into religion depending on how many people the message relates too. Other times it gets violently destroyed. (Branch Davidians, Taliban)

But so long as the Society meets the needs of the majority of the population, they won't be looking for a new message so new messages will only relate to a few. Until Western Society breaks down Scientology with all its money, will remain a cult.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
rammstein
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 18):
The moment all monotheistic religions agree on one and only god- that moment would be a great step forward for humankind.

A great step forward will be when humans will start to have respect of God. Everybody is telling "God thinks this", "God thinks that", "God is this", "God is that". How can people be so arrogant, to pretend being able to understand God like they were on the same level?

If God exists, nobody would be able to understand "what is God" and "what is God thinking". Humility is what many humans have to yet learn.

P.S. I'm agnostic.
He who wishes to be rich in a day will be hanged in a day. --Leonardo Da Vinci
 
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ManuCH
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 42):
That's Anthony F.C. Wallace's theory of the progression of religion.

Thank you for your very interesting and informative post.
Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
 
LY744
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 22):
Scientology was established *originally* as a method of self-help. Christianity took off with the tenet "Go forth and make disciples of all nations." and "Love your neighbour as yourself".

That's what you think. You have no clue how Christianity really started. Like you said yourself, it was 2000 years ago. It's easy to see how Scientology started, because, as you pointed out, it's only been around for half a century. If the people who wrote the bible aren't some of the earliest science fiction writers then I don't know who is.

NOW, fuck scientology. Tell me, why are you a Christian? Why aren't you a Buddhist, a Muslim, or whatever? Have those not been around the sufficient number of years to qualify to be your religion of choice?


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
bezoar
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 45):
If the people who wrote the bible aren't some of the earliest science fiction writers then I don't know who is.

It's ok if you don't know.  Wink

What we know as reality is actually incredible if one reconsiders what is generally taken for granted. A vast universe, that matter could somehow arrange itself into replicating DNA & life, that life could evolve to mankind with free will, a rational mind (at least for most), conscious thought, and the ability to ponder the universe, debate God and morality and such.

A few lumps out of the universe that turn around and study the universe!

That, my friends, is a rather incredible 'story,' and something that I think no science fiction writer has come close to equaling. The efforts of science fiction writers pale in comparison to reality.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
TheCol
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 45):
NOW, fuck scientology. Tell me, why are you a Christian? Why aren't you a Buddhist, a Muslim, or whatever? Have those not been around the sufficient number of years to qualify to be your religion of choice?

Why does it matter?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
iamcanadian
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 45):
NOW, fuck scientology. Tell me, why are you a Christian? Why aren't you a Buddhist, a Muslim, or whatever? Have those not been around the sufficient number of years to qualify to be your religion of choice?

That's a completely different topic and discussion altogether. This topic is about comparing Scientology and Christianity, not Christianity and Buddhism, or Christianity and Some-Other-Religion.

And besides:

Quoting TheCol (Reply 47):
Why does it matter?

And as for this:

Quoting LY744 (Reply 45):
That's what you think. You have no clue how Christianity really started. Like you said yourself, it was 2000 years ago. It's easy to see how Scientology started, because, as you pointed out, it's only been around for half a century. If the people who wrote the bible aren't some of the earliest science fiction writers then I don't know who is.

I encourage you to do a little research into Christianity, the Bible, the Disciples, etc, before trying to interrogate, attack and/or challenge my beliefs and faith. Before I posted this topic, I looked up Scientology just to "make sure" that I knew *how different* Scientology is from Christianity (not that I didn't already KNOW...I just wanted to cover all the bases.).

In fact, I encourage you to do a little research into ANYTHING you debate about, or want to challenge. Heck, I took a course on evolution this semester in University so I knew what it was *really* all about (aside from the vague knowledge of the general public).
Shut up and calculate.
 
LY744
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RE: Religion, Science Fiction- One And The Same?

Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 47):
Why does it matter?

Because he thinks Christianity is so different from Scientology, and I think it's not.

Quoting Iamcanadian (Reply 48):
That's a completely different topic and discussion altogether.

No it's not. Your argument centers around the fact that Scientology is not as old and popular as Christianity is. Hence I want to explore your position, by introducing other examples. Can't establish a pattern based on your opinion of one religion, now can we? To reitirate, I'm just trying to understand what your position actually is.

Quoting Bezoar (Reply 46):
What we know as reality is actually incredible if one reconsiders what is generally taken for granted. A vast universe, that matter could somehow arrange itself into replicating DNA & life, that life could evolve to mankind with free will, a rational mind (at least for most), conscious thought, and the ability to ponder the universe, debate God and morality and such.

A few lumps out of the universe that turn around and study the universe!

You know what, it's so much more probable that this amazing world we live in is the product of a random process, than it is to believe that a series of concoctions from the minds of some arbitrary mortals can tell us the truth about how we came to exist.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it

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