AA787823
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Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:55 am

I was recently in TX for annual GSC, and I was watching the local news. Anyway TX has introduced a new law that would make sex crimes against a child under the age of 15 eligible for the death penalty. I think this is a great idea. Eliminates repeat offenders, and gets these sickos out of society for good!
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MDorBust
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:00 am

Meh, I'd rather see blunt trauma castration for sexual predators.

Yeah, I am that vengeful.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:02 am

I think it should be in effect for some crimes but for sex offenders, come on. Just lockthem up for the rest of their lives.

MCOflyer
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AA787823
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 2):
Just lockthem up for the rest of their lives.

Cheaper to execute!
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ACFA
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:08 am

So if a 16 year old has sex with a 15 year old, would that constitute a sex crime (as the 15 year old would be below the age of consent in the US) and thus lead to the 16 year old's execution? Don't think it can't happen. High school age teens have gone to jail for things like that which would be legal in many other jurisdictions.
 
aloges
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:09 am

Nope. The death penalty should not be extended to anything, it should be abolished altogether. This is not because I disagree with punishment or "sympathise" with offenders, but because irreversible corporal punishment (execution and mutilation, basically) have no place in a civilised society.

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 3):
Cheaper to execute!

This is the single most sickening argument in favour of the DP I can imagine. Kill someone because it's God damn cheaper?!?
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LTU932
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting ACFA (Reply 4):
So if a 16 year old has sex with a 15 year old, would that constitute a sex crime (as the 15 year old would be below the age of consent in the US) and thus lead to the 16 year old's execution?

I understand it like this:

If it's statutory rape (as long as both consented), it's probably just the usual jail time. But if we're talking about sexual child abuse, rape, etc., then the death penalty might be applied.

Personally, I'm all in favour of sexual crimes being considered capital offenses.
 
AA787823
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:14 am

The law applies to sicko adults commiting sex crimes against children. In other words a 40 year old man raping or having sex with a 14 year old. That is what should be punished accordingly. That criminal has damaged the child for life, he should pay with his. PERIOD!
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MDorBust
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting ACFA (Reply 4):
So if a 16 year old has sex with a 15 year old, would that constitute a sex crime ...

Not in the State of Texas.

Age of consent is seventeen. If one of the parties to consentual sex is under the age of seventeen but over the age of fourteen and the other party is within three years of the first parties age, then there is no crime.

For example:
14:17 is legal
14:18 is a crime

15:18 legal
15:19 crime
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DL787932ER
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:16 am

The problem with such a law is that it's almost guaranteed to be overturned by the Supreme Court. The controlling precedent would likely come from a case called Coker v. Georgia, which all but stated that the death penalty is unconstitutional except for murder.

Having said that, I would fully support the death penalty for violent sex offenders with minor victims, and I think Coker v. Georgia was a terrible ruling (the majority opinion basically said brutal rape isn't all that bad, since the victim lived). But I don't think it's likely to be overturned anytime soon.

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 3):

Cheaper to execute!

The last time I saw the numbers, it was somewhere along the lines of an average $700k to imprison someone for life (based on average age at conviction and average prisoner lifespan) and $2M to execute someone. The main reason is the cost of the appeals process, which has more avenues and is generally pursued more vigorously for condemned prisoners.

This is another area I think we could do better in, although I'm not sure how best to do so while preserving important rights. And I'm not overly concerned about the costs; executing someone like Jessica Lundsford's killer is a better use of tax dollars than 90% of what the government spends our money on anyway.

On edit: Also keep in mind we're not talking about a 19-year-old having consensual sex with his 16-year-old girlfriend. The people who should be executed are the 40-year-olds who abduct and violently rape young children. Some of these predators have dozens or hundreds of victims before they get caught.

[Edited 2007-03-17 00:23:28]
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AA787823
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 9):
Having said that, I would fully support the death penalty for violent sex offenders with minor victims, and I think Coker v. Georgia was a terrible ruling (the majority opinion basically said brutal rape isn't all that bad, since the victim lived). But I don't think it's likely to be overturned anytime soon.

Agreed, it has been shown many times over, that these criminals cannot be rehabilitated. Most go on to commit other offences or worse murder. Take away the appeals process (which I think is too long in this country. One appeal and then carry out the sentence within 30 days). This is a much better option.


Lethal Injection Consists Of:

Sodium Thiopental (lethal dose - sedates person)

Pancuronium Bromide (muscle relaxant-collapses diaphragm and lungs)

Potassium Chloride (stops heart beat)

The offender is usually pronounced dead approximately 7 minutes after the lethal injection begins.

Cost per execution for drugs used : $86.08
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CastleIsland
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting AA787823 (Thread starter):
Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?



Quoting AA787823 (Reply 3):
Cheaper to execute!



Quoting Aloges (Reply 5):
This is the single most sickening argument in favour of the DP I can imagine. Kill someone because it's God damn cheaper?!?

Indeed. A point I made here just recently:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1558276/

to some ridicule until WestJest87 was kind enough to clarify on my behalf.

Fact is, and it has been discussed here ad nauseum, given the current appeals process, it is more expensive to execute someone than it is to keep them in prison for life. I believe reforms to this process are underway, but I am not sure exactly how things are progressing.

However, my main point in objecting to the death penalty is this: my spiritual belief is that all of us, and what makes us "us" constitutes what is the essence of God. We must accept (but not allow them to roam free) the worst elements in our society. We will never be able to remove them completely. We must accept them just as we must accept faults in ourselves. While our individual faults may never even approach some of the horrendous things that some people do, I don't believe it is our place to play God. And for you to cite money as a justification really is despicable. I really hope you aren't religious, because then I'm not gonna get a minutes sleep tonight refuting your position.  Wink
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
aace24
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:28 am

Imagine that.....Texas wanting to expand the death penalty.

 Yeah sure
 
aloges
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 10):
Cost per execution for drugs used : $86.08

I bet you could even do it cheaper with one of these fine alternatives: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_methods_of_capital_punishment  banghead 

Hey, while we're at it, wouldn't it be cheapest to cut off the arms of bank robbers? How about blinding stalkers so they can't see their victims anymore? Cutting off the tongue after perjury? For all the DP cheerleaders seem to care, "boo hoo" to all of them.  sarcastic 
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 3):

Cheaper to execute!

LOL, the hell it is.

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 9):
The last time I saw the numbers, it was somewhere along the lines of an average $700k to imprison someone for life (based on average age at conviction and average prisoner lifespan) and $2M to execute someone. The main reason is the cost of the appeals process, which has more avenues and is generally pursued more vigorously for condemned prisoners.

You're absolutely right about that...execution is way more expensive.
 
AA787823
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 15):
You're absolutely right about that...execution is way more expensive.

Well one of the main problems with the US justice system is the appeals process. There should be ONE appeal, and then sentence carried out within 30 days.
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disruptivehair
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:05 am

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 16):
Well one of the main problems with the US justice system is the appeals process. There should be ONE appeal, and then sentence carried out within 30 days.

Bollocks. The system is deeply flawed. Did you know that evidence of innocence isn't actually admissable after a certain point in the appeals process? it's ridiculous. I have no doubt that we've executed innocent people in my lifetime and I find that unacceptable. I'm no bleeding heart, but death has a tendency to be irreversible. At least if you wrongfully imprison someone you can let them out, apologize, and compensate them.

Can you imagine the horror of being strapped down for something you didn't do?

The death penalty is ineffective, expensive, and too mistake-prone. Any of those reasons is a good one to get rid of it for good, but all of them together means it needs to go now. Today. Life in prison, breaking rocks...definitely. Execution? I'd rather have my tax money spent on highway beautification or schools, personally.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 7):
The law applies to sicko adults commiting sex crimes against children. In other words a 40 year old man raping or having sex with a 14 year old.

With the exception of the fashion/modelling business, of course...  Wink
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:11 am

Bring back public executions. Guillotine the lot. Make it a spectacle, like American Idol. Voters get to text who gets to die first. Ryan Seacrest can host (and drool after the 'hot bad boy')

(pls note heavy sarcasm)

On a serious note, if you are found guilty. Beyond the shadow of a doubt and are sentenced to death. Why the wait. Seriously. Why death row? Did the crime? Beyond a shadow...we have an opening tomorrow at sunrise. Rain or shine.
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disruptivehair
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 19):
On a serious note, if you are found guilty. Beyond the shadow of a doubt and are sentenced to death. Why the wait. Seriously. Why death row? Did the crime? Beyond a shadow...we have an opening tomorrow at sunrise. Rain or shine.

That isn't how the legal system works in a civilized country. Besides, there is no such thing as guilt beyond all doubt, and that isn't the burden of proof. The burden of proof is guilt beyond a REASONABLE doubt, but a few days is not long enough to mount an effective appeal...particularly when there have been so many people released from death row recently after they were discovered to be innocent after many years, and when so many death sentences are thrown out because the conviction is thrown out or mitigating circumstances weren't taken into account.

Unless you saw the guy with your own two eyes you can't be sure...and even if you DID see him you can't be sure, since eyewitness accounts are about the most unreliable type of evidence there is.
 
DL787932ER
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 13):
I bet you could even do it cheaper with one of these fine alternatives:



A long-drop noose is about $10 of rope, and it's reusable.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 13):

Hey, while we're at it, wouldn't it be cheapest to cut off the arms of bank robbers? How about blinding stalkers so they can't see their victims anymore? Cutting off the tongue after perjury? For all the DP cheerleaders seem to care, "boo hoo" to all of them.

Careful, your strawman is showing. No one's talking about corporal punishment for average crimes. We're discussing the appropriate punishment for someone who has committed a crime so heinous that he has forfeited his right to life. In those cases, once all doubt as to actual innocence has been removed, the only moral and just punishment is an expedient execution.

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 17):
Did you know that evidence of innocence isn't actually admissible after a certain point in the appeals process?

And that's the point at which the appeals process needs to end. Much of what extends the appeals process is arguments over minor and tangential issues, such as whether one form of execution or another is cruel and unusual, and has nothing to do with actual guilt or innocence. That's why the appeals process can take decades even in cases where the criminal confessed, there is clear DNA evidence, etc. The accused must be shown beyond a reasonable doubt to have committed the crime, and afterwards deserves all possible opportunity to show any possible evidence of innocence, but at the point at which there is no doubt that the person actually did what they were accused of doing, the guilty person should get 30 days to get their affairs in order, make peace with whatever family and/or religious views they may have, and be executed by the end of the month.

Edit: typo.

[Edited 2007-03-17 01:23:32]
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AA787823
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:27 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 18):
With the exception of the fashion/modelling business, of course...

Or teachers and students....
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disruptivehair
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 21):
And that's the point at which the appeals process needs to end. Much of what extends the appeals process is arguments over minor and tangential issues, such as whether one form of execution or another is cruel and unusual, and has nothing to do with actual guilt or innocence. That's why the appeals process can take decades even in cases where the criminal confessed, there is clear DNA evidence, etc. The accused must be shown beyond a reasonable doubt to have committed the crime, and afterwards deserves all possible opportunity to show any possible evidence of innocence, but at the point at which there is no doubt that the person actually did what they were accused of doing, the guilty person should get 30 days to get their affairs in order, make peace with whatever family and/or religious views they may have, and be executed by the end of the month.

All I have to say is I'm glad that's not the way the system currently works, and it is still deeply flawed. How would you feel if it was you on death row about to die for something you didn't do? That's the nightmare that should build as many safeguards into the system as possible since at the end of the day, you are taking a man's life. That is not something to fuck around with.
 
aloges
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 21):
No one's talking about corporal punishment for average crimes.

Perjury is a serious offence, not an average crime. Anyway, where to draw the line? What constitutes the "forfeit of the right to live"? In other cultures and/or times, people were murdered (or "rightfully executed") for "crimes" that wouldn't even warrant a fine these days.

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 21):
someone who has committed a crime so heinous that he has forfeited his right to life.

"Forfeited his right to live"? That's laughable, the right to live is inalienable. Allow me to quote:

Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
MaidensGator
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting ACFA (Reply 4):
So if a 16 year old has sex with a 15 year old, would that constitute a sex crime (as the 15 year old would be below the age of consent in the US) and thus lead to the 16 year old's execution?

Actually, the US Supremes have ruled that a person who was under 18 when the crime was committed cannot be executed....

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 9):
The problem with such a law is that it's almost guaranteed to be overturned by the Supreme Court. The controlling precedent would likely come from a case called Coker v. Georgia, which all but stated that the death penalty is unconstitutional except for murder.

Key there is "all but".... that case involved an escaped murderer who raped an adult woman... with the present makeup of the Court, it's no sure thing that in a similar case involving a child death would be taken off the table...

Quoting Aloges (Reply 5):
This is the single most sickening argument in favour of the DP I can imagine. Kill someone because it's God damn cheaper?!?

I agree one hundred percent... I can support the death penalty in certain cases, because while it is not a general deterrent, there is no doubt it is a specific deterrent.... As I mentioned in a previous thread, Ted Bundy escaped from a jail in Colorado, came to Florida, and kept on killing women.... Ted won't be killing anybody else...

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 16):
Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 15):
You're absolutely right about that...execution is way more expensive.

Well one of the main problems with the US justice system is the appeals process. There should be ONE appeal, and then sentence carried out within 30 days.

I have to disagree... The only way you can justify a death penalty is to ensure that due process is not only observed, but that it's MORE than observed... When a killer in the US is finally executed, his case will have been reviewed by numerous courts which ALL made sure that his rights were protected....

Florida has a capital sexual battery law on the books... Anybody over the age of 18 who commits sexual battery on a child younger than 12 can be sentenced to death. The law provides for automatic life imprisonment should it be declared unconstitutional....
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
DL787932ER
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 22):
How would you feel if it was you on death row about to die for something you didn't do?

I think you missed what I wrote. I'm discussing the situation in which there is no question that the condemned party did what he was convicted of doing. Aside from that, I will respect your argument as a question of actual innocence is the only justifiable argument against the death penalty, although in an era of DNA evidence and ubiquitous video such claims are hard for many condemned prisoners to make.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 23):
Perjury is a serious offence, not an average crime. Anyway, where to draw the line? What constitutes the "forfeit of the right to live"? In other cultures and/or times, people were murdered (or "rightfully executed") for "crimes" that wouldn't even warrant a fine these days.

I'm not discussing other cultures and times; I'm discussing 21st century Western societies. If you want to discuss where to draw the line, we could start with crimes that deprive others of their right to life and/or so seriously damage their physical and mental well being that they have effectively been deprived of their life. We could also discuss matters like the person's history of committing such crimes or their desire to repeat them, and there are certainly other aspects that can be considered. But let's be honest: you don't want to discuss where to draw the line because you want to argue that there shouldn't be a line, right? John Wayne Gacy, Timothy McVeigh, Bin Laden when we get him, even Hitler if he had been captured alive - they should all get to hang out for the rest of their lives at taxpayer expense, learn a trade, maybe write their memoirs, get a street in Paris named after them?  sarcastic 

Quoting Aloges (Reply 23):
That's laughable, the right to live is inalienable. Allow me to quote:

Do you think no person was executed during Jefferson's era, or his presidency? He owned slaves, too, which doesn't fit very well with a right to liberty. I'm not bashing Jefferson in any way - I think he was a great man and a great President. I'm only making the point that when you try to justify your 21st century version of "morality" with quotes from 18th century leaders, you may find that their values and ideals don't actually match up to the point you want to make.

Interpreted properly, Jefferson was right that the right to life is inalienable - no one else can alienate it. The commission of a capital crime alienates one's own right to life by virtue of having done something so irredeemable that continued existence is utterly incompatible with the society in which one committed the crime. Once one has forfeited one's own rights, the state can and will take action pursuant to said forfeit. This concept is the same as having the right to be free from warrantless searches - the state can't search you without a warrant, but if you give up that right by consenting to a search, the police will search you.

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 24):
Key there is "all but"

It's not an absolute slam dunk. But I think if you take a slice of Coker v. Georgia and spread on some 14th Amendment equal protection, you have a stare decisis sandwich that would be pretty hard for the court to swallow. I don't believe the Supreme Court would allow the execution of a child rapist without expressly overturning Coker. Now, it's not out of the question that the current court may do such a thing, but it's far from a slam dunk.
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aloges
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 25):
John Wayne Gacy, Timothy McVeigh, Bin Laden when we get him, even Hitler if he had been captured alive - they should all get to hang out for the rest of their lives at taxpayer expense, learn a trade, maybe write their memoirs, get a street in Paris named after them?

Don't be ridiculous.
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DL787932ER
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 26):
Don't be ridiculous.

The ridiculous position is the one that opposes the death penalty even for such monsters. If that is your position, then you are in fact advocating that such "people" live out the rest of their lives at taxpayer expense (unless you want them released entirely). If that is not your position, then I'm mistaken and I apologize. In that case, where would you draw the line?
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CastleIsland
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 24):
Quoting Aloges (Reply 5):
This is the single most sickening argument in favour of the DP I can imagine. Kill someone because it's God damn cheaper?!?

I agree one hundred percent... I can support the death penalty in certain cases, because while it is not a general deterrent, there is no doubt it is a specific deterrent.... As I mentioned in a previous thread, Ted Bundy escaped from a jail in Colorado, came to Florida, and kept on killing women.... Ted won't be killing anybody else...

I'd much rather spend my tax dollars making sure that prisoners cannot escape than on appeals regarding a death sentence (put 'em in shackles 24/7, I don't care). I really have no issue with natural selection (i.e., Bubba) raping and killing a scumbag in prison, I just don't want the policy of my state or my country to be advocating killing.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
MaidensGator
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 25):
But I think if you take a slice of Coker v. Georgia and spread on some 14th Amendment equal protection, you have a stare decisis sandwich that would be pretty hard for the court to swallow. I don't believe the Supreme Court would allow the execution of a child rapist without expressly overturning Coker.

I have to disagree... the Coker decision specifically mentions the Florida capital sexual battery statute and distinguishes it from the Georgia statute that was overturned because in Florida, a sentence of death can only be given for the rape of a child. A mere sentence more in Coker could have invalidated the Florida statute. But instead, the Court acknowledged the Florida law, and by letting it stand, tacitly approved it. Since consideration of the Florida statute was in no way necessary for the Court to rule on the case at bar, the fact that they mentioned it without striking it down can be cited by a future Court as persuasive authority approving of the death penalty for the rape of a child by an adult...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
aloges
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:27 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 27):
If that is your position, then you are in fact advocating that such "people" live out the rest of their lives at taxpayer expense (unless you want them released entirely).

My position is that no human being can lose the right to live. Plain and simple. Everything, and I mean everything else including the damned money that seems so sacred these days, comes after that. The idea that the "savings" made possible by quick executions could somehow offset the inevitable executions of innocents disgusts me, as it is equal to putting a price tag on human lives.

There are some 3300 inmates on death row in the US (source: http://deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=9&did=188#state ), how much of a monetary difference would they make in comparison to e.g. white-collar criminals?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
DL787932ER
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 29):
I have to disagree...

You'll have to forgive me; I was working from memory and it's been a while since I read Coker. As you stated, if they distinguished the case at bar from a Florida statute applying only to minors, there's a much stronger chance that the Court might uphold such a penalty. Has anyone been sentenced to death for a crime other than murder since state death penalties started being reinstated in the late '70's?

Quoting Aloges (Reply 30):
My position is that no human being can lose the right to live.

Fair enough. Then I did accurately state your position towards the likes of McVeigh and Gacy. Although, to be precise, the argument is not that anyone loses the right to life; it's that they forfeit it through certain actions. One's passive and the other is the conscious act of the criminal.

And I never made any arguments that quick executions are desirable as a means to save money. Executions should be quick (once all possibility of innocence has been disproved) not to save money, but because that is the criminal's just punishment. It shouldn't matter whether the trial, appeals process, etc. costs $1 or $10 million, as long as justice is served both fairly for the defendant and expeditiously for the victim and society.
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A346Dude
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 3):
Cheaper to execute!

 rotfl 

How the idea of cost ever got involved in this issue is beyond me. We are talking about whether or not a person should be killed. Cost is irrelevant.

I have never understood how a devout Christian (like the President) can support the death penalty. My only guess is they interpret the Bible they regard so highly something like this:

God: Though shalt not kill!
Moses: Really? Hmm, seems a little harsh. You mean, like, never?
God: Well, you know, unless someone does something really, really bad. I guess if you have an appeals process, and you are pretty sure the guy is guilty, then I'm ok with that.
Moses: Awesome, this is going to save us a lot of money.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 pm

RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 31):
Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 29):
I have to disagree...

You'll have to forgive me; I was working from memory and it's been a while since I read Coker.

Nothing to forgive, I hadn't thought about that case in years, but remembered that (probably because I live in Florida) so I looked at it...

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 31):
Has anyone been sentenced to death for a crime other than murder since state death penalties started being reinstated in the late '70's?

Not that I know of... They do charge capital sexual battery, but so far as I know, they go for life without parole.... except in case like Couey....

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 32):
I have never understood how a devout Christian (like the President) can support the death penalty. My only guess is they interpret the Bible they regard so highly something like this:

God: Though shalt not kill!
Moses: Really? Hmm, seems a little harsh. You mean, like, never?

I've read that since the Old Testament wasn't written in English, the translation of "thou shalt not kill" should really be "thou shalt not murder"... Gives it a whole different meaning, because you can kill without committing murder...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 31):
the conscious act of the criminal.

That is up for debate, and lots of it. Whether or not a murderer makes the conscious decision to kill or kills out of rage does make a lot of difference, so to speak "cold-blooded murder" is not the same as "hot blooded murder". To the victim, it makes of course little difference, but we're talking about the criminals and punishment.

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 31):
I never made any arguments that quick executions are desirable as a means to save money.

I must have confused you with AA787etc, you names are much alike. My bad, then.

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 31):
Then I did accurately state your position towards the likes of McVeigh and Gacy.

You didn't. I don't care what crime a murderer committed or what he's called, I oppose the death penalty. That is it, period. I think it's barbaric and disgraceful. To insinuate that I suggest

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 25):
they should all get to hang out for the rest of their lives

is unfair and has nothing to do with the realities of prisons. Finally, the only way to forfeit one's right to live is through suicide, as "inalienable" refers not only to the punishers, but also to the criminal himself. No one can give up anyone's right to live - it can only be violated, and that is why murder is a crime. It violates someone else's inalienable right to live, but it does not mean anyone gives his/hers away.

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 33):
you can kill without committing murder

How so? It's just what the law in some states and countries says, the law in mine says otherwise. To me, an execution is reprehensible, cold-blooded murder - and it is the same to my government, which I'm grateful for.

[Edited 2007-03-17 04:30:00]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:39 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 34):

How so? It's just what the law in some states and countries says, the law in mine says otherwise.

I doubt that... You are saying that in your country, if you accidentally run over a pedestrian on a dark road killing him, you're charged with murder... I don't think so.... I didn't use the word "execution" in my post....
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:40 am

I skipped the other responses so My apologies for possibly being repetitive.

Quoting AA787823 (Thread starter):
I think this is a great idea.

 no 
I agree with life sentences for people over 21 commiting acts againt those under 12, but the rest of it has to be more 'flexible'. Heaven forbid a 13 y/o has consentual sex with a 12 y/o and gets the death penalty. That's the problem with most of these laws, they RARELY provide for RATIONAL exceptions.
This space intentionally left blank
 
saxdiva
Posts: 2329
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:51 pm

RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:37 pm

Wow. Given that the vast majority (about 90%) of child molestations are committed by people known to the victim, AND at least a third are committed by relatives, I just can't think of a better way to make sure that these crimes are almost NEVER reported.

This has to rank right up there as one of the most ridiculous laws ever proposed.  banghead 
 
kiwiinoz
Posts: 1999
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 6):
If it's statutory rape (as long as both consented), it's probably just the usual jail time.

The probablem is, statutory rape law is there to protect people who don't have the capacity for consent. Most serious child molestations of young children are, in one sense, consensual. Often, the child allows it to happen as they are typically abused by someone they know. In fact, it is common that a child being molested mistakes the abuse for affection. Children in this situation have been known to "look forward" to the abuse sessions, (I think Teri Hatcher gave some personal examples of this when she detailed her abuse)

Naturally this compounds the issue in terms of the negative emotional and mental impact of abuse.

As with most crimes, it requires some sense of judgement to assess cases on an individual basis. You are right, a 16 and 15 year old taking things a bit too far is less of a big deal that a 40 year old guy raping his 9 year old niece, but by definition in law, these could potentially be the same crime.
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 23):
Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

Well, some criminals are deprived of their "Liberty" when placed into prison, to say nothing of "pursuit of Hapiness" when they're in prison. What standard is to say they then (upon committing molestation, murder, rape, etc.) can't be deprived of life?

-R
Living the American Dream
 
DL787932ER
Posts: 575
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:16 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 34):
Whether or not a murderer makes the conscious decision to kill or kills out of rage does make a lot of difference, so to speak "cold-blooded murder" is not the same as "hot blooded murder".

That's true. In the U.S., we have different charges for such crimes. Killing in the heat of passion might be second degree murder, or even voluntary manslaughter, for which the penalties are less. But in the case where a person consciously chooses in advance to end the life of another, and then does so without immediate provocation, that person can be charged with first degree murder. All of this is dependent on the laws in the state in which the crime is committed, but the bottom line is that someone who kills by mistake, or under duress, or in the heat of the moment with no prior intention to kill, is not charged with a crime punishable by death.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 34):
You didn't.

I did. You just don't like the fact that there are only two possible choices when punishing someone convicted of a capital crime: you can execute that person or not execute that person. If you reject execution, then you are in fact supporting letting that person live out his natural life. As unpleasant as prison may be, it's still a far better choice than the criminal's victim got.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 34):
but it does not mean anyone gives his/hers away.

It does. How can anyone who purports to be a moral being think otherwise? I (as a murderer) can take your life, but mine cannot be taken? Nonsense. Giving a murder more rights than his innocent victims makes a mockery of a civilized system of justice.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 34):
How so?

Killing is any taking of life. Murder is the intentional taking of life with "malice aforethought". A bad tackle in a football game could kill. Giving a patient the wrong dose of medicine could kill. A soldier taking a good shot on a field of battle could kill. But none of those is murder.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 34):
To me, an execution is reprehensible, cold-blooded murder - and it is the same to my government, which I'm grateful for.

And to my government, an execution (once the legal process has dragged out for decades) is a justifiable taking of a life already forfeit. For which I am also grateful, though not nearly as grateful as the victims of the crime, and their families.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13387
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:30 pm

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 40):
For which I am also grateful, though not nearly as grateful as the victims of the crime, and their families.

Is this a generalisation based on your opinion, or are there actually some statistics to back this up?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
57AZ
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:51 pm

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 20):
A long-drop noose is about $10 of rope, and it's reusable.

Better check your books on that. In California the statute required that evidence that the sentence was carried out has to be maintained. Back when they hung folks on the gallows, that meant that the hangman's noose was cut from the rope and tagged. Each noose's ID tag was recorded in the prison's records. Some of the records from Folsom are exhibited at the state museum at Folsom Penitentary.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
EK20
Posts: 869
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 16):
Can you imagine the horror of being strapped down for something you didn't do?

Try asking Sally Clark's family and friends.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1256260,00.html

She never got any compensation.  Sad
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:33 pm

Quoting EK20 (Reply 43):
Try asking Sally Clark's family and friends.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1256260,00.html

She never got any compensation.

Holy sh!t, I remember that woman. How horrible for her. You know who belongs in jail? That Professor Sir Roy Meadow a-hole.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:59 pm

"should the death penalty be expanded ? "

what are you going to do to 'expand' it ? kill people twice ?
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:28 pm

Quoting AA787823 (Thread starter):
eligible for the death penalty.

While also the USA should simply abolish the death penalty alltogether, as simple as that
-

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 27):
even for such monsters

to abolish the death penalty means that there is no such a thing even for "such monsters". The costs of the deathrow and final executions in the USA anyway are higher than life-sentences. And in most European countries, in case of "monsters" there is the possibility to declare them as "dangerous to society" and keep them locked until the real end.
-

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 45):
"should the death penalty be expanded ? "
what are you going to do to 'expand' it ? kill people twice ?

to satisfy public bloodlust, it may be "appropriate" the expand the death penalty to burglary and similar crimes  yuck 
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:07 pm

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 35):
You are saying that in your country, if you accidentally run over a pedestrian on a dark road killing him, you're charged with murder.

D'uh... I knew I was too tired when I posted that.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 39):
Well, some criminals are deprived of their "Liberty" when placed into prison, to say nothing of "pursuit of Hapiness" when they're in prison. What standard is to say they then (upon committing molestation, murder, rape, etc.) can't be deprived of life?

The difference is that liberty can be given back to a wrongfully imprisoned person. Life cannot.
___

Anyway, this must be the millionth thread on the DP that I've taken part in, and the outcome has always been the same.

[Edited 2007-03-17 13:41:07]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:39 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 47):
thread on the DP that I've taken part in, and the outcome has always been the same.

you mean with ONE major nation being majority-wise DP-enthusiastic ?!  Yeah sure
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
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RE: Should The Death Penalty Be Expanded?

Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 32):
God: Though shalt not kill!
Moses: Really? Hmm, seems a little harsh. You mean, like, never?
God: Well, you know, unless someone does something really, really bad. I guess if you have an appeals process, and you are pretty sure the guy is guilty, then I'm ok with that.
Moses: Awesome, this is going to save us a lot of money.

 rotfl 

Couldn't have said it better myself. But as we all know, only liberals are hypocrites, right?  Yeah sure
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan

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