oly720man
Posts: 5743
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:32 pm

Over the weekend I suffered the curse of Kwik-fit (car tyre and exhaust place for those unaware). A couple of weeks ago I had them do the front shock absorbers and yesterday I needed to get the front wheel off to try and tighten up the fan belt (it's a Megane and the access to the alternator bolt is through the wheel arch). In doing this 2 of the wheel bolts sheared off. One is unfortunate, but 2!! Fortunately I was at work and the workshop had bolt extractors to retrieve the remaining bit in the wheel hub and I had some spare bolts, but if I'd been out and about somewhere, I wouldn't relish the thought of trying to get anywhere with only 2 bolts on the front wheel.

Years ago, IIRC, there was some sort of industry attempt to stop this sort of thing whith people finding they couldn't actually get their wheels off after a puncture, for example so they had to do it manually with a torque wrench. Now it seems they've gone back to the pneumatic drive and overdoing it.

Always the same when you want to do a quick job. Something else goes wrong and it takes another hour.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:42 pm

A friend of mine had a Hyundai and he got a flat wheel, couldn´t move the bolts unless breaking them. So he sent it to
a Hyundai dealership and they had to break every bolt on all 4 wheels, during this process the brakepads got damaged and he had to replace them as well.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:49 pm

What was Hyundai's Explanation.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:40 pm

Don´t know, here we swap tires every year from stud tires to non-stud tires (well, most of us), big biz this when winter comes and when spring comes, so the company that swapped his tires are the one who get the blame not Hyundai.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
777DadandJr
Posts: 1484
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:37 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:18 pm

I have never been able to understand this sort of thing, except that it is simply a lack on workmanship. Not only can you not seem to get the lugs loose, over-tightening is the leading cause of warped brake rotors.

Wheel lugs need to be properly torqued when tightened to prevent these sort of problems, but repair shops don't seem to give a hoot anymore. I guess they figure if they can warp your rotor, then you'll have to come back for a brake job.

Simply inexcusable!

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
VTBDflyer
Posts: 341
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:04 pm

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:53 pm

On my 12 foot trailer, we could barely get the lugs off. I would guess they had about 70 ft.lbs on each of the 7 lugs. It was absolutely ridicules, and after all, they aren't even drive wheels...

VTBDflyer
Fly Thai
 
TSS
Posts: 2483
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:12 pm

Quoting Oly720man (Thread starter):
Years ago, IIRC, there was some sort of industry attempt to stop this sort of thing whith people finding they couldn't actually get their wheels off after a puncture, for example so they had to do it manually with a torque wrench. Now it seems they've gone back to the pneumatic drive and overdoing it.

Tightening wheel bolts (or nuts) entirely by hand takes an unacceptably long time. However, there are products called "torque sticks" that are available for use with pneumatic drives that are pre-calibrated to specific torque values and color-coded by application. For example, turquoise is 80 ft/lbs x 19mm (Hondas and older GM cars), orange is 80 ft/lbs x 21mm (Toyotas and most Nissans), yellow is 65 ft/lbs x 19mm (Subarus), brown is 100 ft/lbs x 13/16" (older RWD Fords) and red is 80 ft/lbs x 17mm (Almost all German cars). There are a whole rack full of others, but these are the most common.
Any shop that doesn't use these to avoid the possibility of over-tightening wheel bolts (or nuts) is just asking for trouble and irate customers.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 1):
A friend of mine had a Hyundai and he got a flat wheel, couldn´t move the bolts unless breaking them. So he sent it to
a Hyundai dealership and they had to break every bolt on all 4 wheels, during this process the brakepads got damaged and he had to replace them as well.

Hyundai specifies a unique torque value for tightening the lugs on many of their cars (75 ft/lbs, the gold-colored torque stick if I recall correctly), and woe be unto he who exceeds that torque value.
I can't imagine how breaking the bolts would damage the brake pads though, so I suspect the new brake pads were a case of the dealership padding the bill.

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 4):
Wheel lugs need to be properly torqued when tightened to prevent these sort of problems, but repair shops don't seem to give a hoot anymore.

Some repair shops DO care, and rely on repeat business. Before my technicians ever touch a customer's car they are sternly warned to use the correct torque stick each and every time. If they use a pneumatic wrench without the proper torque stick on it to tighten wheel bolts, they find themselves looking for a new job in very short order.

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 4):
Simply inexcusable!

Agreed 100%

Quoting VTBDflyer (Reply 5):
On my 12 foot trailer, we could barely get the lugs off. I would guess they had about 70 ft.lbs on each of the 7 lugs. It was absolutely ridicules, and after all, they aren't even drive wheels...

Trailers vary, but 70 ft/lbs is relatively low, especially for a 12 foot trailer. I wasn't there, but corrosion and/or a too-short lug wrench may have been the culprits.
Factory-supplied lug wrenches are notoriously inadequate on almost all vehicles because they're too short and tend to be oddly shaped as well. I can only assume they're designed to prevent over-torquing when putting the lugs back on, not to ease taking lugs off.
A cheap breaker bar and a correctly-sized deep-well socket are much preferable for removing lugs.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
71Zulu
Posts: 1605
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:42 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:25 pm

My GM pickup requires 140 lb-ft torque to the wheel lug nuts and the shop that does my tire work runs them on with an air impact wrench, but makes the final tightening to the specified amount with a torque wrench. They say they have found inconsistencies with the "torque sticks" and do not use them any more, all lugs now set by torque wrench which is really the only correct way to do it. In addition to making it hard or impossible to get the lug nuts off by hand, overtightening can also warp your disc brake rotors and can cause a shimmy when braking.
Clickable links only please!
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:33 am

TSS, me neither, but it was costly for my friend. Anyways, I long for an old Citroën DS, had a few but not with centrum-bolt 1950-1960ies had them or at least early 1960ies and all 1950ies, interesting design, but hard to balance the wheel.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
777DadandJr
Posts: 1484
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:37 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting TSS (Reply 6):
Hyundai specifies a unique torque value for tightening the lugs on many of their cars (75 ft/lbs, the gold-colored torque stick if I recall correctly), and woe be unto he who exceeds that torque value.

On my 04 Pontiac GTO (Holden/Vaxhall Monaro, for those non-yanks here) the owners manual not only specifies lugs to be torqued to 100 lb/ft, BUT, also specifies a specific tightening sequence of the lugs.

I have warped rotors on my GTO right now because the car lot that I purchased the car from swapped the wheel on the car while it was on their lot, and I am sure they didn't tighten the lugs to specs.

Like I said earlier, inexcusable!!

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
trav110
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:49 pm

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:58 am

On my Honda, the damn brake shop that replaced my pads and rotors cross-threaded one of the bolts, and about 5,000 miles later when I went in for an oil change and a rotation somewhere else - snap! I took it back to the original place I'd gotten my brakes done and told them to fix it, which they did free of charge.
 
LY744
Posts: 5185
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:06 am

The generic fast-service places are pretty terrible it seems. Probably something to do with trying to do too much too fast. Only ever took a car into a place like that once, for a mere oil change, and they stripped the oil pan plug...


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
airbusA346
Posts: 7284
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:05 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:11 am

My dad is a self employed Tyre Retailer/Dealer and he lostens and does the inital tightening on the wheel nuts with a air powered gun thingy (can't remember offical name  Sad ) then does the final tightening with a torque wrench which is set the the car manufactures specifercations.

Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
777DadandJr
Posts: 1484
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:37 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting AirbusA346 (Reply 12):
My dad is a self employed Tyre Retailer/Dealer and he lostens and does the inital tightening on the wheel nuts with a air powered gun thingy (can't remember offical name ) then does the final tightening with a torque wrench which is set the the car manufactures specifercations.

 checkmark 
Exactly how it should be done!

Tom, tell your Dad, he's a good man!

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 11):
The generic fast-service places are pretty terrible it seems. Probably something to do with trying to do too much too fast. Only ever took a car into a place like that once, for a mere oil change, and they stripped the oil pan plug...

Jiffy Lube officially made my shit list after my last trip to my mechanic.

I was leaking oil from the drain plug.. So I have my mechanic look, Jiffy lube had been using the wrong gaskets, and not even replacing them, just stacking them. Then on top of that they had been overtorquing the drain plug in the hopes it would seal.. Not only is the drain hole now out of round, but the whole oil pan is mishapen, apparently from the 400lb gorilla that lives inthe floor hanging on the wrench or something.

I guess that is my first Honda gripe.. Aluminum oil pan not sturdy enough to survive Jiffy Lube.

I figured changing oil was impossible to screw up.. Because that is all I would let Jiffy Lube do after seen numerous botched transmission, radiator flushes, and tire rotations come out.. I guess the place really is all around useless.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
airbusA346
Posts: 7284
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:05 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting Oly720man (Thread starter):
Kwik-fit

Oh Yeah, why the heck are you going into places like Kwik-fit.

You'll find places like Kwik-fit don't give a stuff how good they do the job, because they will still get paid no matter what, a part from if they get sacked, but self employed retailers like my dad, have to do the job correctly and properly, because if they don't get no business due to the job not being done properly, they won't get paid.

Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3072
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting AirbusA346 (Reply 15):
Oh Yeah, why the heck are you going into places like Kwik-fit.

You'll find places like Kwik-fit don't give a stuff how good they do the job, because they will still get paid no matter what, a part from if they get sacked, but self employed retailers like my dad, have to do the job correctly and properly, because if they don't get no business due to the job not being done properly, they won't get paid.

My sister went to kwik fit, they destroyed the side of her car by scraping it against the lift pillar.
 
EWS
Posts: 3369
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:41 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:03 am

I've had experiences in this area also.

Late last year i painted my calipers on my focus and was putting the rear alloy back on (didn't have a torque wrench handy) so i was doing them manually with a standard bar when i over-tightened one of the nuts and it snapped the bolt clean off.

I went to ford to ask for a new one and they priced one up at £9 or so, so i purchased one. Luckily my workplace has its own mechanical workshop where they have a hydraulic press so i was able to push the snapped bolt out of the assembly and put the new one in.

Now only 2 days ago, i snapped another one... then i see this thread..  laughing   dopey   faint   fever 

Lew
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:42 am

Quoting EWS (Reply 17):
I've had experiences in this area also.

I assisted a couple with their van and it took 3 of us to loosen one bolt. In exuceable. My suzuki's bolts are very easy to loosen as they get tighten to properly.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:45 am

Quoting TSS (Reply 6):
Tightening wheel bolts (or nuts) entirely by hand takes an unacceptably long time.

Wiskey Tango Foxtrot????

I usually go ahead and bye a proper hand tire wrench (Looks like a plus with 4 different sized lugs). I think that it is actually faster to use that then to get the air wrench, power up the compresser, wait for it to charge, unroll the hose, and then repeat in reverse order when done.

Last time I changed the tires over on my sisters Focus, I used a hand speeder wrench, a breaker bar and a clicker style torque wrench.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
TSS
Posts: 2483
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

RE: Overtightened Wheelbolts.

Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:50 am

Quoting Trav110 (Reply 10):
On my Honda, the damn brake shop that replaced my pads and rotors cross-threaded one of the bolts, and about 5,000 miles later when I went in for an oil change and a rotation somewhere else - snap!

Truly inexcusable, as Honda uses exceptionally high quality lugs. You have to really put forth an effort to mess up a Honda wheel bolt.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bald1983, NoTime, pvjin, Yahoo [Bot] and 17 guests