Blackbird
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Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:02 am

I don't get it. I wasn't, and many of you weren't alive when it happened, virtually none of us endorse such things, so why do we feel guilt over it?

Andrea Kent
Should I disappear mysteriously, have a heart-attack, die under suspicious circumstances, commit suicide, be arrested on bogus charges, or get some form of intractible cancer (not making this one up--there are chemicals that can be used to induce cancer in lab-rats-- humans also, but they're used on rats for researching cures for cancer), you know who to blame

[Edited 2007-03-20 23:02:44]
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
I don't get it. I wasn't, and many of you weren't alive when it happened, virtually none of us endorse such things, so why do we feel guilt over it?

I dont think its that clear cut - you are *expected* to show guilt over it, but it doesnt mean you actually do feel that guilt. Its a guilt that society forces you to put forward because of the social stereotyping that is applied to you if you dont - in a lot of cases you are labelled because you dont follow the social norm that is accepting guilt for a raft of evils that you actually have nothing to do with.

Holocaust, slavery, colonial brutality, genocide of indigenous peoples - and many more.

[Edited 2007-03-20 23:10:50]
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
I don't get it. I wasn't, and many of you weren't alive when it happened, virtually none of us endorse such things, so why do we feel guilt over it?

I don't feel guilt. Sympathy and compassion for those who were affected by it for sure and I also think it is important to remember that it occurred and the victims of it. Obviously I wish it had never happened, but I definately don't feel guilty.

Can you elaborate a bit? Who/what makes you feel guilty about it? Could you have personally prevented it- no, then why should you feel guilty about it?

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
Should I disappear mysteriously, have a heart-attack, die under suspicious circumstances, commit suicide, be arrested on bogus charges, or get some form of intractible cancer (not making this one up--there are chemicals that can be used to induce cancer in lab-rats-- humans also, but they're used on rats for researching cures for cancer), you know who to blame

WTF??!

[Edited 2007-03-20 23:17:35]
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:19 am

I didn't know that people experienced holocaust guilt on a general basis. The only real experience I've had close to it was when a friend visited Hamburg about a dozen years ago, and he wore an ActUp tshirt with a pink triangle on it. So many people pointed at him on the street and said unintelligible comments in German to him, within about 5 minutes he went back to his hotel to put on a different shirt. Only later did he discover that Nazi symbols were outlawed in Germany, which probably explained the reaction he got.
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disruptivehair
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
I don't get it. I wasn't, and many of you weren't alive when it happened, virtually none of us endorse such things, so why do we feel guilt over it?

Simple...I don't. I feel sorrow, which is a completely different emotion.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:24 am

I don't feel guilt, I only hope that we have learnt something from history in order for these things to never happen again.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 2):
Sympathy and compassion for those who were affected



Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 4):
I feel sorrow, which is a completely different emotion.

I agree with both of these.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
I don't feel guilt, I only hope that we have learnt something from history in order for these things to never happen again.

 checkmark  Ditto.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
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LTU932
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
I only hope that we have learnt something from history in order for these things to never happen again.

That's our common hope, but unfortunately, Mankind has NOT learned from history and is still in some way continuing with genocide (e.g. Darfur, Sudan, the Ethnic Cleansing campaigns authorised by Milosevic in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo, the genocide in Rwanda, etc.). These examples I listed can never be compared to how organised and brutal the Holocaust was, but in the end, genocide is genocide.

My hope is that one day, we finally get rid of this urge for self destruction and this racism that is in our society, so we can dedicate ourselves to working together and peacefully coexisting with other people, regardless of where they come from, what the colour of their skin is, or what religion they believe in.
 
MD-90
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:25 am

I don't.

That's probably because I support the excellent human rights group Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO).
 
lehpron
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:25 am

I will show repesct for those who died in my own way, but not for a second will I act like I should take responsibility just because I am also a mortal human being.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Klaus
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
I didn't know that people experienced holocaust guilt on a general basis. The only real experience I've had close to it was when a friend visited Hamburg about a dozen years ago, and he wore an ActUp tshirt with a pink triangle on it. So many people pointed at him on the street and said unintelligible comments in German to him, within about 5 minutes he went back to his hotel to put on a different shirt. Only later did he discover that Nazi symbols were outlawed in Germany, which probably explained the reaction he got.

Hard to say what the comments were about, but the pink triangle is not a banned nazi symbol. It has been adopted by the gay movement here as elsewhere as a symbol of persecution and is used here in Germany that way. As unfortunate as any hostile comments have been, they were probably homophobic rather than political.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
Mankind has NOT learned from history

It would be naive to expect that humanity would "snap out of it" just like that. Every wide-ranging improvement has been a slow and gradual development with few and still limited jumps forward in some places while suffering setbacks in others.

Still, war, genocide and violence have once been the norm rather than the exception. We've already come a long way since then, especially in Europe. But there's no doubt this journey is far from over, particularly on the global scale.
 
Blackbird
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:40 am

I just think some people really exploit the holocaust for pity. It was obviously a tragic series of events, and it should not be ever allowed to happen again, but it really just gets under my skin when a certain group of people go on and on about the holocaust more for pity than to make sure it would never happen again.

I also dislike the attitude where you're only allowed to criticize the Arabs for what happens in the middle east, but if you criticize Israel, you're anti-semitic. How is it racist to criticize a nation? Israel is supposed to be a secular country, where even some Arabic Israeli's live. It takes two to tango usually, and it really gets nothing done if you're not allowed to criticize the wrongs of both sides. Israel has done it's share of wrong-doings, yet for some reason they're off limits. There is virtually no discussion in America over Israel's misconduct, just the Arabs. Why? Because if an American criticized Israel, they'd be instantly labled anti-semitic (even though it's not racist to criticize a country), then they'd be compared to the Nazi's, and the holocaust would be brought up and everybody would be expected to fall for the "Poor Me" "Poor Me" thing-- and they do!

I don't support either group of people. I think they have both caused their share of grief, and both sides refuse to acknowledge the atrocities committed on their side, and simply blame the other side. I think until both sides can be criticized openly, and until both sides will acknowledge their own mis-deeds and take responsibility, peace in the middle-east will never happen.

Sincerely,
Andrea Kent
 
LY744
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
I also dislike the attitude where you're only allowed to criticize the Arabs for what happens in the middle east, but if you criticize Israel, you're anti-semitic.

No you're not.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
Israel is supposed to be a secular country, where even some Arabic Israeli's live. It takes two to tango usually, and it really gets nothing done if you're not allowed to criticize the wrongs of both sides.

You can criticize whoever you want.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
Israel has done it's share of wrong-doings, yet for some reason they're off limits.

No they're not.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
There is virtually no discussion in America over Israel's misconduct

Yes there is.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
Why? Because if an American criticized Israel, they'd be instantly labled anti-semitic

Then the person labeling you, err, I mean the arbitrary American, would be a moron.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
even though it's not racist to criticize a country

Sure isn't.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
then they'd be compared to the Nazi's

Again, it would take a moron to make that comparison.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
and the holocaust would be brought up and everybody would be expected to fall for the "Poor Me" "Poor Me" thing-- and they do!

Now THAT's tragic!

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
I don't support either group of people. I think they have both caused their share of grief, and both sides refuse to acknowledge the atrocities committed on their side, and simply blame the other side.

That's a pretty healthy attitude. Good for you.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
I think until both sides can be criticized openly, and until both sides will acknowledge their own mis-deeds and take responsibility, peace in the middle-east will never happen.

That's lovely too.



Are you happy now? Couldn't we get to the point of the thread right off the bat, perhaps with the aid of a more appropriate title?

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
I just think some people really exploit the holocaust for pity. It was obviously a tragic series of events

"Tragic series of events"... So like one day Hitler made a joke about killing Jews/Gypsies/gays, somebody took him a little too seriously, one thing led to another, and before you know it, poof! A few million people gone. Oops! Like that?  Yeah sure


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
Klaus
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:24 am

There is still plenty of racism, anti-semitism and any kind of other hatreds around, so we're far removed from being able relegate the holocaust to the history books.

Yes, there are certainly some people who try to use the holocaust to their respective advantage. But the best way to respond to that is to actively and openly confront the memory of the mass murder and persecution.

Millions of people have been murdered, orphaned or traumatized, and any attitude which doesn't acknowledge and respect that fact is ignorant, stupid and despicable, even more so for any german than for anybody else.

I've been born after the war, so I don't feel guilt, but I still can't fault any jew or any other direct or indirect victim for having mixed feelings about any german or any mention of our nationality.

Deserved or not by later generations, it's part of a shitty deal which has been made before our time and which still continues to hurt people, more so on the victim's side, but still painful on the other.

It can't be "enough" in any way, but for my part I'm glad that we as a society are at least trying to mend most of the wounds which still exist. Not an easy thing to do, but there's simply no viable alternative.
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:30 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
I just think some people really exploit the holocaust for pity.

You can say the same thing about the Civil War...  duck 
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
Blackbird
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:36 am

LY,

While, I know it's obviously not anti-semitic to criticise a country, a lot of Jewish people seem to hold such a view. While you may be wise enough to realize I'm right, many do not.

Maybe discussion over Israeli wrongdoing is not *totally* off-limits, but there is a great degree of limitations as to the degree of criticism you can make. Go one step over that line and you get labled anti-semitic by some. Some will even lable you a traitor and question where you got your informatioin from, insinuating you get your information from pro-arab sources, which is simply not true. Discussion over Israeli's conduct in the US of A, is heavily restricted.

I'm a mass-debator. I debate a lot with people, and I've been accused of being anti-semitic, and there has been at least one circumstance where a person I know was compared to being a nazi.

I don't know about you, but isn't it wrong to use the holocaust-- something that happened a long long time ago to elicit a pity party? I personally believe it to be wrong to use the holocaust as grounds for a pity party-- especially when it wasn't only the Jews that suffered... lots of people suffered as a result of the holocaust, the Polish, the Gypsies, the Greeks, massive loads of Russians as well.

I felt labling the thread "Why do we let Jewish people use the holocaust as a pity party, and why do we keep falling for it over and over again" would probably be considered inflammatory, even though my intention was not to inflame, but to start meaningful discussion. Plus it probably wouldn't fit in the text-area.

I think you know what I meant in regards to a tragic series of events. I did NOT mean Hitler made some jokes and *POOF!*, six million dead.

Andrea Kent
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 16):
I don't know about you, but isn't it wrong to use the holocaust-- something that happened a long long time ago to elicit a pity party? I personally believe it to be wrong to use the holocaust as grounds for a pity party-- especially when it wasn't only the Jews that suffered... lots of people suffered as a result of the holocaust, the Polish, the Gypsies, the Greeks, massive loads of Russians as well.

I think the reality is, there are still many people who are alive that went through the holocaust. For them, I imagine it's pretty real, and it affects them every day. Likewise, the generation below them, as they would have had to deal with the long term affects as well. Generation by generation, the impact gets less.

If you think about it from an individual point of view. If you were raped, tortured, and watched all your friends and family get killed next to you, how long do you think you would take to get over it? Would it affect you forever? Probably. Would you be pissed off if people dismissed your experience as insignificant? Probably. Would you over compensate for parts of society neglecting the gravity of your experience by screaming out for pity? Probably. Now multiply that scenario to cover a whole society. I would be making damn sure the world didn't forget what happened to me either if I was them.

In terms of the "guilt" that you asked about.....Maybe that's a case of considering ourselves human, with shared responsibility, rather than just saying, "Oh, that was the Germans.....". Even though I have no personal or family connection to the holocaust, I feel a little ashamed that my fellow humans are capable of such things
 
Klaus
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:03 am

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 17):
If you think about it from an individual point of view. If you were raped, tortured, and watched all your friends and family get killed next to you, how long do you think you would take to get over it? Would it affect you forever? Probably. Would you be pissed off if people dismissed your experience as insignificant? Probably. Would you over compensate for parts of society neglecting the gravity of your experience by screaming out for pity? Probably. Now multiply that scenario to cover a whole society. I would be making damn sure the world didn't forget what happened to me either if I was them.

Indeed. The right of all the victims to be recognized is essential.

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 17):
I feel a little ashamed that my fellow humans are capable of such things

Exactly.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 16):
I felt labling the thread "Why do we let Jewish people use the holocaust as a pity party, and why do we keep falling for it over and over again" would probably be considered inflammatory, even though my intention was not to inflame, but to start meaningful discussion. Plus it probably wouldn't fit in the text-area.

And you wonder why some people call you an anti-semite?

From your original post, I thought it was an honest academic question that deserves a fair answer as there has been a huge increase in the field of Holocaust studies over the years. But then you turned it into an anti-Israel rant, which is unfortunate, but shows your true colors.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:09 am

I don't have any holocaust guilt. It was a moment in history that was tragic, as were thousands of other moments.

Many anti-zionists and jewish consiparacy theorists always like to blame the "power" of jews on holocaust guilt. Its seems paranoid to me.

As for the Israeli "pity party", well I don't like to use racist and religious stereotypes, the jews have always been a little "worried" and pity seems to be a parallel to that. As Richard Lewis said, "My grandmother was a Jewish juggler: she used to worry about six things at once”.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
jews have always been a little "worried"

And for good reason. Here we are in the year 2007 and the President of Iran threatens a new Holocaust against the Jewish people while denying that the first one ever occured...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Blackbird
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:55 am

I understand it was horrible, and all that. And I understand why they keep bringing it up. But, when you bring it up once or twice, you're doing good. Over and over again, it becomes really irritating and begins to piss people off. It actually starts up anti-semitic sentiment.

And there are some people who will unethically use a tragedy to elicit pity, and use people's sadness and sorrow of such a tragedy to exploit for gain. Israel is a country with a horrific human rights record. However they have managed to intimidate most critics from saying it by labling them anti-semitic, accusing them of being arab sympathizers, or even likening them to Nazi's. The truth is basically this; The Israeli's have an appalling human rights record, having engaged in genocidal acts, and has engaged in land grabs, taking territory it was not entitled to, and routinely ignoring the UN and International law. They deny their atrocities, and only insist on blaming Palestinians and Arabs for the problems in the middle east.

Likewise the Arabs and the Palestinians have engaged in atrocities of their own, which are quite voluminous I might add, and will only instead blame the Israeli's for all the problems in the middle east, denying the admission of any of their misdeeds. As in most conflicts, as mankind has learned through its collective experience -- it takes two to tango; they have both done their share of misdeeds, many of them truly heinous, and yet neither side will ever admit them; and instead of doing anything productive, simply spend their time shifting blame one way or another.


Andrea Kent
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:17 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 22):
Blackbird From United States, joined Oct 1999, 685 posts, RR: 3

The problem that I have with that belief is that it seems to be looking in the past. I understand that you are saying that jews still use the holocaust as a flag for their purpose. I think that they do at times, but to say that it gets them alot nowadays is invalid.

So let me make an assumption. If the holocaust is a reason for other people's acceptance of Israel or Zionism, is it also a reason for your contempt? In other words, you seem to be very angry over the holocaust connection and I think that this is typical of people who are considering the legitimacy of Israel all together. Many experts believe that that was the reason behind Iran's recent "holocaust convention" where they were trying to make the holocaust void. Iran is attempting to severe all connections between this "guilt" and Zionism.

But Iran doesn't realize that this is not the reason for Israel's existance anymore. Jews are in Israel and many accept the legitimacy of them having a place in Israel, holocaust or not. All atrocities and politics aside, do you?

To me it seems as though this is what you really want to talk about, not the human emotion of guilt.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Molykote
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:42 am

I don't feel guilt over the Holocaust but certainly recognize it as a horrible time in human history. I also agree with the general sentiment of others' comments in this thread to this point.

I did however believe this was noteworthy:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 19):
And you wonder why some people call you an anti-semite?

From your original post, I thought it was an honest academic question that deserves a fair answer as there has been a huge increase in the field of Holocaust studies over the years. But then you turned it into an anti-Israel rant, which is unfortunate, but shows your true colors.

Based upon this comment (and perhaps I misread it), it appears possible that RJpieces holds the exact view that Blackbird believes is inhibiting productive discussion on matters relating to Israel. At the same time, I am capable of realizing why some people cannot make this distinction (i.e. the religious symbol on her national flag and terms such as "Jewish state" that are often used).

My respect or disrespect for Israel as a country has no association with the religious beliefs of any portion of her population. I support the US alliance with Israel for strategic reasons and due to the fact that she is a productive democracy in a portion of the world that I find otherwise uninspiring. Regardless of what opinion her neighbors hold on Israel's legitimacy, I would have thought that by now these neighbors would have realized some of the benefits of democracy and education by observing Israel's example.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:09 am

Quoting Molykote (Reply 24):
Based upon this comment (and perhaps I misread it), it appears possible that RJpieces holds the exact view that Blackbird believes is inhibiting productive discussion on matters relating to Israel.

Blackbird could have started a thread being critical of Israel or posted in any of the tons that are in Non-Av. Instead she chose to attack the memory of the Holocaust and the historical facts of the Holocaust all in an attempt to show that you can't be critical of Israel, which is absurd. If her real intention was legitimate, genuine criticism of Israel then she would have come right out and said that. But her entire post and subsequent posts say a lot about her.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 24):
My respect or disrespect for Israel as a country has no association with the religious beliefs of any portion of her population. I support the US alliance with Israel for strategic reasons and due to the fact that she is a productive democracy in a portion of the world that I find otherwise uninspiring. Regardless of what opinion her neighbors hold on Israel's legitimacy, I would have thought that by now these neighbors would have realized some of the benefits of democracy and education by observing Israel's example.

 checkmark  I'm guessing that Blackbird can't understand that the United States supports Israel for strategic reasons, and not because of some nefarious Jewish lobby.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:26 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 25):
If her real intention was legitimate, genuine criticism of Israel then she would have come right out and said that.

I agree that this was her intention and that she is trying to dance around the premesis of this thread, that she is not a zionist. Fine, but why drag the holocaust into it? It is a fact of the past and not a fact of the present and noone with serious knowledge uses it as a license for anything. Lets move on.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
rjpieces
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 26):
Fine, but why drag the holocaust into it?

Good question. Blackbird?

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 26):
It is a fact of the past and not a fact of the present and noone with serious knowledge uses it as a license for anything.

Most critics of Israel, like Blackbird, constantly ramble about how being critical of Israel will get them reminders of the Holocaust or to be labelled an anti-semite. But I see much more of whackjobs saying this than I do of mainstream Jewish organizations or Jews reminding people critical of Israel about the Holocaust...

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
Should I disappear mysteriously, have a heart-attack, die under suspicious circumstances, commit suicide, be arrested on bogus charges, or get some form of intractible cancer (not making this one up--there are chemicals that can be used to induce cancer in lab-rats-- humans also, but they're used on rats for researching cures for cancer), you know who to blame

Am I the only one somewhat confused by this????? The only thing I'm getting from this is that you are suggesting the Mossad might assasinate you for writing this?

[Edited 2007-03-21 04:36:57]
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Blackbird
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:27 pm

Well, I didn't say I didn't believe the holocaust happen, I didn't intend to attack the memory of the holocaust. I just find it appalling that some people use the holocaust as a flag to justify their agenda, and to use it as an excuse for a pity-party. I'm not fond of Israel because of it's appalling human rights record, and there is little meaningful discussion on Israel. Everyone else can be criticized, but Israel is off limits. And that annoys me: I think all nations should be open to criticism.

I find it annoying that criticizing Israel's human rights abuses get me labled anti-semitic. And that is a serious lable that is interpreted as being tantamount to being called a Nazi, and the constant reminders of the holocaust which I hate because it reinforces that they think I'm a Nazi, and everybody starts blindly sympathizing with them, I end up looking like a monster, no discussion ever occured or at best a complete denial of any responsibility of Israel's part (even if it's obviously true that they were), which is followed by a thorough blaming of the Palestinians and Arabs for their wrong-doing.

It's like they are incapable of admitting their wrongdoing (This is not inherant to just Jews; the Palestinians and Arabs do it too), no discussion ever occurs, it descends into name-calling, followed by a reminder of the holocaust and the "poor" me thing, that ropes people in everytime, and I end up looking like the monster.

Andrea Kent
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:41 pm

Lets term it Disapointed rather than Guilt.There are many Events in history that evoke similiar feelings.It depends how closely affected or involved are you to those events.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
andessmf
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:12 pm

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
Should I disappear mysteriously, have a heart-attack, die under suspicious circumstances, commit suicide, be arrested on bogus charges, or get some form of intractible cancer (not making this one up--there are chemicals that can be used to induce cancer in lab-rats-- humans also, but they're used on rats for researching cures for cancer), you know who to blame

Hate to say this, but the simple fact of HOW you sign your name essentially indicates to me that your line of thinking on many things is not quite up to par with the rest of the world. But I digress, to continue and answer your questions.

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
I wasn't, and many of you weren't alive when it happened, virtually none of us endorse such things, so why do we feel guilt over it?

And why not? is the better question. After all, guilt over passed transgressions is currently used by many to justify their current preferred behavior, are there not even discussions about slavery reparations now? I wasn't involved, yet somehow I am made to feel guilty over this. What about some Native American tribes that claim that their only ticket out is thru gambling? basically a hobby that is well known to cause some social issues. I can go on and on about this. It can even include making parents feel guilty about their 'bad' treatment towards their child, and ways to make the parents feel less guilty.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 28):
Well, I didn't say I didn't believe the holocaust happen

Seen you use this line before in other subjects, so don't dance around it. You don't say you don't believe it, but you certainly question a lot of it.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 28):
Everyone else can be criticized, but Israel is off limits.

Typical quote that has no basis in fact, Israel is being constantly criticized by foreigners and by Israelis themselves. Do a google news search and see what you will find.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 28):

I find it annoying that criticizing Israel's human rights abuses get me labled anti-semitic

Because in the overall area, Israel's abuses are nothing compared to how the surrounding countries abuse their own population, and if you willingly ignore this, our put it at the end of your statement, it certainly gives one the impression that you are singling out a group.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 28):
followed by a reminder of the holocaust and the "poor" me thing, that ropes people in everytime

GIve us one, just one recent example of this occurring, and then I will google enws search the word 'crusader' or 'imperialist' to see how has not let go of their long gone past.
 
baroque
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:39 pm

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 17):
I would be making damn sure the world didn't forget what happened to me either if I was them.

So you will be asking Howard to put the agreement with Japan on hold until it apologises to Indonesia for the 4 million dead Indonesian civilians in WWII?

However horrible Nazi policies were, they were not and are not unique (try Stalin and the Japanese govt for contemporaries, Mao soon after and then Pol Pot and a cast of dozens at least). One problem with current views on the subject matter is that they start to prevent other similar events being put into an overall context and recognized. It is almost as if we can recognise one Holocaust and after that we are all H-Ced out, and cannot even see what is going on around us. Especially see it for what it is.

It might be better if instead of feeling guilt we did not treat that event as unique and tried more to prevent its replication (usually with modifications) in our own times - Darfur, Zimbabwe anyone?
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:51 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
So you will be asking Howard to put the agreement with Japan on hold until it apologises to Indonesia for the 4 million dead Indonesian civilians in WWII?

A trade agreement being dependant on other qualifiers, such as human rights abuse etc is not unique. Consider the imposing of sanctions on Iraq or South Africa during Aparthied for instance. I sanctions like this can be important, and definitely prefer them to a military solution. Whether they should be applied in the case you outlined....not sure. Not as familiar with the agreement. I would certainly think that if he feels that apologies are due to his own diggers for acts committed during WW2, (different case to the one you outlined I know), then he should also consider some of the apologies being demanded from him lately!

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):

It might be better if instead of feeling guilt we did not treat that event as unique and tried more to prevent its replication (usually with modifications) in our own times - Darfur, Zimbabwe anyone?

I agree with what you're saying. History is pointless if we can't learn from it's mistakes right? And humans have a knack for repeating the mistakes of history that would have alien observers struggling to comprehend. Boy are we dumb!! However, I do think the holocaust is unique to most other events. Firstly, due to it's scale, but also, the acceptance, denial, and remorse for it seems to have become political agenda for many races and countries for years since.
 
baroque
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:10 pm

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 32):
However, I do think the holocaust is unique to most other events.

Only by reason of being declared to be so. As a percentage, possibly the Romany people suffered at least as badly. Leftist Germans probably worse. (Come to think of it, some of the right wing thugs did not fare much better either!) But leftist Germans do not have some distinguishing feature, so they get ignored.

And compared to Pol Pots purges it is unique only that most do not know what the hell he did. Kiernan's book, The Killing Fields had a hard time of it when first published.

I don't mind part of it becoming part of a political agenda but I do mind when that also becomes part of a process of downplaying similar efforts as they come along. You also get to the farcical situation of an event not REALLY being bad until it is definitely worse than the Holocaust. Good grief!!

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 32):
Not as familiar with the agreement. I would certainly think that if he feels that apologies are due to his own diggers for acts committed during WW2, (different case to the one you outlined I know), then he should also consider some of the apologies being demanded from him lately!

Yes, he does have some problems with apologies!!! I guess you could wonder if this was not another example of suppression of the general by attention to the particular. What the Japanese did to hundreds of thousands of Allied prisoners, was meted out to millions of civilians. While remaining concerned for the abominations meted out to the prisoners, we should not forget the civilians. Singapore Chinese suffered terribly as well, but the larger numbers gave more scope for them during the occupation of Indonesia.

Getting modern Asian governments (apart from the Chinese, and possibly the Vietnamese) to provide data on what happened is a bit difficult. Korea has special problems in being on both sides of the equation - many many being victims while some of those conscripted were perpetrators.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:44 pm

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 16):
While, I know it's obviously not anti-semitic to criticise a country, a lot of Jewish people seem to hold such a view. While you may be wise enough to realize I'm right, many do not.

You're right about that...to a point. I have been accused of being an anti-Semite, not always by Jewish people, for criticizing anything Israel has done or in some cases for expressing sympathy for Palestinian children.

It's ironic to me because I have Jewish heritage on my mother's side, and almost my entire family in Poland in the 1940s did not survive to see the end of the war thanks to the Nazis. But that doesn't matter to some of them....they call me a 'self-hating Jew.'

However, the majority of people are reasonable enough to separate criticism of Israel, which is a political construct, from criticism of Judaism, which is a religion and (some feel) an ethnic group/race.

Some people are bizarre.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 22):
I understand it was horrible, and all that. And I understand why they keep bringing it up. But, when you bring it up once or twice, you're doing good. Over and over again, it becomes really irritating and begins to piss people off. It actually starts up anti-semitic sentiment.

I have to disagree with this. The scale of what happened during the Holocaust is almost unmatched in human history. 2/3 of European Jewry was killed....1/3 of the world's total Jewish population. Almost every Jew in Poland was killed. Before the Holocaust, Poland had a vibrant, strong Jewish community. Now the country is nearly 98% Catholic. Poland lost a gigantic slice of its culture and vibrancy and was turned into a homogenous nation. It would be as if someone killed the entire Hispanic population of the USA and wiped away almost all evidence of its influence or existence.

I 'get' the Holocaust, but I grew up in a heavily Jewish area of Dallas and some of my neighbors were Holocaust survivors; they had the tattoos to prove it. People talk about it because they want people to understand what happened and how it happened so it never happens again. Their goal is not to piss you off or to get you to feel sorry for them. The survivors aren't actually looking for pity at all.

About the only criticism I have for the way the Holocaust is taught/discussed is that it seems to focus mainly on the Jewish experience, since about half of the Holocaust's victims were Jewish and the other half were other 'undesirables'. Many of my relatives who were slaughtered by the Nazis were not Jewish at all; they were Polish Catholics, but being Slavic was just as undesireable as being Jewish. Gypsies, homosexuals, the physically handicapped, the intellectually impaired, people with mental health problems, leftists, communists, and anyone who was otherwise not desireable was a target. I think sometimes people forget that, and sometimes I can still surprise someone by telling them that the Nazis weren't only after Jews. I think that's kind of sad.
 
LY744
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 16):
Go one step over that line and you get labled anti-semitic by some. Some will even lable you a traitor and question where you got your informatioin from, insinuating you get your information from pro-arab sources, which is simply not true.

And "some" people would call you lots of things, and assume all kinds of shit about you for little to no reason at all. So what? C'est la vie.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 16):
I don't know about you, but isn't it wrong to use the holocaust-- something that happened a long long time ago to elicit a pity party?

If I take what you describe word for word, then yes, it is wrong. That is, it's wrong in my opinion, because wrong and right are kind of made up anyways.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 16):
I personally believe it to be wrong to use the holocaust as grounds for a pity party

In case you haven't noticed, both sides of a conflict, particularly the middle east conflict, will try to spin events to present themselves as the good guys, or at the very least the suffering party. You can start a lot of threads about a lot of different "grounds for a pity party".

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 21):
Here we are in the year 2007 and the President of Iran threatens a new Holocaust against the Jewish people while denying that the first one ever occured...

Dude must have been a used car salesman in a previous life.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 34):
'get' the Holocaust, but I grew up in a heavily Jewish area of Dallas and some of my neighbors were Holocaust survivors; they had the tattoos to prove it.

You probably grew up with my cousins - my uncle is on the board of the JCC there these days  Wink

Quoting LY744 (Reply 35):
I personally believe it to be wrong to use the holocaust as grounds for a pity party

I personally believe it's wrong to start threads about the Holocaust that have virtually no point.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
greasespot
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:44 am

The guilt comes because it was people like you and me, the everyday people, who let it happen and then kept silent when they found out it was happening.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
baroque
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 37):
then kept silent when they found out it was happening.

Did anyone ever mention what happened if you tried to go against the flow in Hitler's Germany? Check out the fate of Admiral Canaris, and he was head of military intell. There but for the g... o. g.. ..........
 
AGM100
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 22):
As in most conflicts, as mankind has learned through its collective experience -- it takes two to tango; they have both done their share of misdeeds, many of them truly heinous, and yet neither side will ever admit them; and instead of doing anything productive, simply spend their time shifting blame one way or another.

Are you actually suggesting that the Jewish community / Israel has sat back and done nothing productive ? I hope not.

Their have and will be many similar atrocities committed on this earth to other ethnic groups. But the Holocaust is unique in its complexity organization and planning. Not only was the Holocaust a state sponsored ethnic cleansing program , it achieved government program status. The operation was complete with budget , departments , transportation and facilities that IMO " is truly a look into the ultimate heart of darkness".

No doubt there are many dark chapters in History as mentioned by Barque and others , but the scope and scale of the Holocaust IMO is unmatched.

Does this mean you should feel sorry for every Jew you meet ?.. of course not and I do not feel guilt for it . But you can not deny that the Jews of Europe and eventually Israel deserve some recognition of it. Try the shoe on the other foot , lets say the US Army had slaughtered 6 million Muslims in the way Hitler did the Jews. I am sure that would all be forgotten by now ...  Yeah sure
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:05 am

I keep forgetting many of you are not American. And that's not necessarily a bad thing!

You're right, the Europeans are far more critical of Israel.

In the US it's totally different. Of course we are so obsessed with political correctness, I guess it's only logical. Not to mention the news we get (if you don't go on the web) is very very limited.

And the reason i posted the "If I get a heart attack thing" is mostly a joke, i simply don't know how to put it on a signature.

Andrea Kent
 
andessmf
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 40):

You're right, the Europeans are far more critical of Israel.

Quick search of the NY times archives up to current shows significant criticism of Israel.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/i...dterritories/israel/index.html?8qa
 
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 4):
Simple...I don't. I feel sorrow, which is a completely different emotion.

Agreed.

I don't feel any guilt over things I have no control over.

Like others have mentioned, Slavery, The Holocaust, these things were not of our making. We were not alive to affect change, so we have nothing to feel guilt over. That doesn't mean we can't be sad that they existed or were perpetrated.

It certainly doesn't absolve us from the future responsibility of never allowing it to happen again.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
Did anyone ever mention what happened if you tried to go against the flow in Hitler's Germany? Check out the fate of Admiral Canaris, and he was head of military intell. There but for the g... o. g..


That is why there was guilt. They new it was wrong and did nothing. Are you telling me that if you knew of the holocaust that you would not stand up to your gov't and say no....no matter the outcome? I know I would.

and I know that Canada and the USA and the UK turned many boatloads of Jewish refugees back to Germany...

GS

[Edited 2007-03-21 21:37:32]
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:51 am

AndesSMF: If you read more carefully you would have noticed there was a link on that page, leading to an article titled "Talking About Israel' written by Nicholas D. Kristof, which states: "The lack of serious political debate about our policy toward Israelis and Palestinians harms America, Middle East peace prospects and Israel itself"  Wink

Andrea Kent
 
andessmf
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 44):
"The lack of serious political debate about our policy toward Israelis and Palestinians harms America, Middle East peace prospects and Israel itself"

I did notice that, but your qoute was:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 40):
the Europeans are far more critical of Israel.

And I was pointing out that it was easy to find those types of articles in a mainstream newspaper.
 
baroque
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 43):
Are you telling me that if you knew of the holocaust that you would not stand up to your gov't and say no....no matter the outcome? I know I would.

I wonder if you really know that? What I do know is that if you had you would not have been around to tell us of your brave and futile stand. Almost all the ones who did take a stand were soon dead.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:04 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 36):
You probably grew up with my cousins - my uncle is on the board of the JCC there these days

It's entirely possible. I went to Hillcrest, a.k.a. "Hebrew High".  bigthumbsup 

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 42):
It certainly doesn't absolve us from the future responsibility of never allowing it to happen again.

I agree with that, and that's why Holocaust survivors are keen to talk about it instead of pretending like it never happened. They want people to know so it never happens again, and I can't possibly find that irritating.
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:30 pm

Quoting Blackbird (Thread starter):
I don't get it. I wasn't, and many of you weren't alive when it happened, virtually none of us endorse such things, so why do we feel guilt over it?

Guilt can be felt in general, for we are all human beings and it is our responsibility never to let such a thing happen - with any people, anytime. It is not a prerogative of the Jewish people to be the only victims in history. However, it has happened a bit too often, and the Holocaust was the lowest point.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
I don't support either group of people. I think they have both caused their share of grief, and both sides refuse to acknowledge the atrocities committed on their side, and simply blame the other side. I think until both sides can be criticized openly, and until both sides will acknowledge their own mis-deeds and take responsibility, peace in the middle-east will never happen

Should you review a bit more in detail and a little less biased the history of the middle-East you would notice that there is a fair amount of "blaming its own side" which has led to some real developments in the Peace process. Whether you support one group or another is entirely up to you. However, do not forget that in Israel (a real democracy) people also have the right to dissent the policy of the government and be vocal about it. So open criticism comes not only externally but also internally. How many other countries in the region allow such manifestations?

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 22):
Over and over again, it becomes really irritating and begins to piss people off. It actually starts up anti-semitic sentiment.

I would really suggest you to make a nice trip to Poland to a cozy little place called Oswieczin (in German: Auschwitz). Take a nice walk along the fields of t he Birkenau camp, visit the museum and after that we talk again. It was a horrible, inhuman, brutal genocide and you bet people should never forget about it. If it starts up an anti-semitic feeling in you to listen to the Shoah (Holocaust) than perhaps you should focus on other genocides: Stalin's progroms, the expansion to the West in the USA, the occupation of Mexico by the Spanish. Suit yourself. However, you choose to feel angry towards the Jewish holocaust. Why would that be?

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 22):
The Israeli's have an appalling human rights record, having engaged in genocidal acts, and has engaged in land grabs, taking territory it was not entitled to, and routinely ignoring the UN and International law. They deny their atrocities, and only insist on blaming Palestinians and Arabs for the problems in the middle east.

'
That is a biased, simplistic and rather unfair view. Have you ever been to Israel? Have you ever talked to an Israeli about what the country as a whole perceives from its history and doings? Probably not. Appaling human rights record? I don't see any Israeli citizen being prosecuted or tortured for expressing his/her opinions (like Syria, Iran, etc.)...

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 28):
I think all nations should be open to criticism.

Absolutely. In something we agree. And how much nicer if there was a lot of self-criticism too.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 40):
I keep forgetting many of you are not American. And that's not necessarily a bad thing!

Oh, how very nice of you! Non-Americans can also be worth something!

I never thought that not being American was a bad thing to begin with. Maybe besides expressing so nicely your anti-semitic feelings you would also share the view of the 40's that there were different "levels" (classes) of human beings.

I don't know where you live in the USA, but if you are near Washington DC it might pay off a little visit to the Yad Vashem Museum there (Holocaust museum). Perhaps it would enlighten you a bit, or at least show you that the Jewish people has every right to celebrate the memory of the millions brutally murdered in the Holocaust.


Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
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RE: Why Do We Experience Holocaust Guilt?

Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:51 pm

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 2):
Should I disappear mysteriously, have a heart-attack, die under suspicious circumstances, commit suicide, be arrested on bogus charges, or get some form of intractible cancer (not making this one up--there are chemicals that can be used to induce cancer in lab-rats-- humans also, but they're used on rats for researching cures for cancer), you know who to blame
--
WTF??!

-
He, I mean the brother of Andrea Kent, in a somehow exaggerated way referred to the not so clear end of several people involved in US-Iraqi relations before 1989 .
-

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
ActUp tshirt with a pink triangle on it. So many people pointed at him on the street and said unintelligible comments in German to him, within about 5 minutes he went back to his hotel to put on a different shirt. Only later did he discover that Nazi symbols

what do ActUp Tshirts and Nazi symbols have in common ?
-

People should not feel "guilt" BUT should realize that something so evil of such a magnitude as the holocaust has been ought to be made impossible to repeat itself. In case of Nazi Germany it was the slaughter of a minority on one side but the attempt to conquer the world on the other side which made the matter particularily nasty. That things like the mass-slaughters of Pol Pot in Cambodia DID occur, canNOT be a reason not to support all steps to avoid a repetition of things like the holocaust. It canNOT be compared to Zimbabwe. The Jews in Nazi Germany were NOT persecuted because they were against Mr Hitler but very simply because they were Jews. And it was not accidental or by carelessness or some local brutality, it was strategically planned. It therefore ought to be the idea of everybody, to try, in the available framework, whatever needed to keep "Hitlerite" people off, NOT to vote for political extremists in politics of the JeanMarie LePen sort, etc .
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