disruptivehair
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UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:58 pm

I'm not affected by this but I know a lot of people who are. I think it's outrageous that the tax cut I've been handed has been stolen from them. I don't want the tax cut if it has to come from their pockets; it's B.S.

What do you guys think?
 
flylondon
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:27 pm

Doing some back-of-an-envelope calculations the neutral salary for the 10% band loss/2% cut seems to be about £20,000.
Therefore if you earn more than this you are better off under the changes, if you earn less you are worse off. So strangely it seems that the poor are subsidising the middle class and wealthy. Seems comrade Brown is trying to win back the dissaffected middle class voters who will send him packing come the next election.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:56 pm

I have no insight in UK taxation laws, but to me it seems that many states in Europe as well as other industrial states are seeing a dangerous tendency towards a diminishing middle class.

It is the middle class that bears the society. If it goes under, a state is getting in serious trouble. This already happened in the roman republic before christ, and it still is valid.

Therefore, I think it cannot be that the middle class has to pay for everything in the way they do today. Otherwise, I fear that crime rates will rise extremely and the stability of many states will be endangered.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:03 am

If I could vote here, it definitely wouldn't be for Grabby Gordon.

Or for that liar David Cameron. He sucks too.

I think I'd just stay home.
 
jwenting
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:13 am

you had an entry rate that low?
WOW. Lowest rate here is over 30%...

Abandoning the lowest rate is usually accompanied by the introduction of all kind of special measures to make sure people paying that rate aren't going to pay more taxes while people paying higher rates WILL pay more.
For example a higher free amount for people with low incomes, special deductions for people with low incomes, etc. etc.

It WILL come out of the pockets of the middle class most of all, the people with incomes just over that limit who will get to pay higher taxes yet receive less taxcuts.
I wish I were flying
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 4):
Lowest rate here is over 30%...

That's not far of our highest, which is 40%.

Anyway, as I wrote elsewhere, those of us with small businesses are also getting clobbered, with an increase in Corporation Tax from 19% to 22%. Great.  Yeah sure
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting FlyLondon (Reply 1):
Doing some back-of-an-envelope calculations the neutral salary for the 10% band loss/2% cut seems to be about £20,000.
Therefore if you earn more than this you are better off under the changes

Woo hoo. Thanks for the subsidy you working class peasents  Silly
 
Pope
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 2):
I have no insight in UK taxation laws, but to me it seems that many states in Europe as well as other industrial states are seeing a dangerous tendency towards a diminishing middle class.

Every American individual taxpayer has seen their marginal tax rates cut during the past 6 years.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
ba747yyz
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:42 am

It's called help who you want to vote for you. Who votes the most? The old and the middle class. The poor don't vote so its not in your interest to help them. Besides 10% is rediculously low. Well not as bad the a tax free Native.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:18 pm

Quoting BA747YYZ (Reply 8):
It's called help who you want to vote for you. Who votes the most? The old and the middle class. The poor don't vote so its not in your interest to help them. Besides 10% is rediculously low. Well not as bad the a tax free Native.

I still think it's rubbish to demand more taxes from the people least able to pay them, and less from the people most able to pay them. It's regressive and it's a crock. I just can't believe I heard such garbage coming out of a Labour politician's mouth. They've truly shown their Thatcherite colors now.
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:28 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 9):
They've truly shown their Thatcherite colors now.

Mmm, well that's a bit over the top, considering how much help they've offered the low paid over the last decade. Still, it is a bit of a surprising move given that history to make tax changes that make the least affluent worse off. The whole point of the 10% starting rate was to give the least well-off the opportunity to keep more of their money. The ones that benefit most are those earning above 20k but below the 40% threshold, which isn't a bad thing in itself, since that group are hardly in the stinking rich bracket. But I think the point is well-made, that group are one of the biggest and most likely to vote, it's just that changes like this usually happen just before an election.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:33 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
Mmm, well that's a bit over the top, considering how much help they've offered the low paid over the last decade.

They brought in a minimum wage, which needed to happen; it was appalling that people were working for as little as £1 an hour. My mother-in-law knows people who made 60p an hour as recently as 1995. Bringing in a minimum wage simply brought the UK into line with most other civilized countries. I think they're Thatcherites in other ways, i.e. bleeding the middle class dry, ignoring education issues, and privatizing left right and center.

Quote:
Still, it is a bit of a surprising move given that history to make tax changes that make the least affluent worse off. The whole point of the 10% starting rate was to give the least well-off the opportunity to keep more of their money. The ones that benefit most are those earning above 20k but below the 40% threshold, which isn't a bad thing in itself, since that group are hardly in the stinking rich bracket. But I think the point is well-made, that group are one of the biggest and most likely to vote, it's just that changes like this usually happen just before an election.

I don't see how this will help Labour in the next election; please explain it to me. (I'm not being sarky, I'm genuinely curious.)
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 11):
think they're Thatcherites in other ways, i.e. bleeding the middle class dry, ignoring education issues, and privatizing left right and center.

Well, I don't really see how Thatcher bled the middle class dry, to be honest. They did very well indeed out of her. I don't disagree with you that this is what this government have been doing, just that I don't really recognise the similarity with Thatcher, who if anything, did the opposite.

As for education, we can argue till the cows come home over the merits or otherwise of what they've done, but they've undoubtedlly massively increased spending on education, again, different to the Thatcherite approach. And finally, with privatisation, I think that's just down to Thatcher winning the argument more than anything. Few people wish to see a mass return to nationalisation, except perhaps, where it has gone horribly wrong, like the railways.

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 11):
I don't see how this will help Labour in the next election; please explain it to me

Whether it will or won't help Labour at the next election is debatable, but here's how the thinking goes: The middle-classes have a feeling that they have been used as cash cows by Labour throughout their administration, with the 40% tax band catching ever more people due to the holding of thresholds. Equally, the iniquitous inheritance tax, which used to just encompass the well-off, now hits large numbers of people because of the increase in property prices, as does stamp duty.

So, the strong belief is that rather than getting money from the affluent, it's hitting the ubiquitous "man in the street". There have been ever greater screams of protest about over-taxation from this group more than any other, and they do form the core of the country. Now, this group also tend to be comprised of floating voters to a greater degree than any other, and much more likely to pay attention to which party is not going to hammer them tax-wise (what people say is important to them, like the environment, is somewhat different to how they vote, which is often on which group of bastards will hurt me least). Because of the nature of the electoral system (and the US is the same in this respect) many of the seats are to all intents and purposes pre-determined, and a swing one way or the other will have little impact. So you tend to get something like 150 that are critical to the outcome of an election.

In terms of who votes and who doesn't bother, the young, poorly educated and poorly paid vote in fewer numbers than the middle-classes or the elderly, so it's in the interests of any government hoping to be re-elected not to piss them off too much, which is why you often find the parties falling over themselves to appeal to "Mondeo-man" for example.

The Conservatives have made great strides over the last year or so in appealing to this constituency, and that's undoubtedly causing great concern to Labour - after all, it was this group switching away from the Tories who put them in power in the first place. As to the question of whether or not it would work, I somehow doubt it. This group have been hit hard by successive tax rises, and a small sop to them isn't going to erase the memory of all the others. Of these, I still think stamp duty and inheritance tax are the biggest problems, because to all intents and purposes, they are new taxes for them - they never had to pay them in the past.

Does that help?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:26 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 12):
Does that help?

Yes it does...basically it comes down to common sense and class warfare.
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:35 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 13):
Yes it does...basically it comes down to common sense and class warfare.

Common sense, yes. Class warfare, not really. "Middle class" really just refers to the strata of society who work hard and live reasonably well. It's the same in every country, just as in the US it would be insane to annoy them too much.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:10 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
Common sense, yes. Class warfare, not really. "Middle class" really just refers to the strata of society who work hard and live reasonably well. It's the same in every country, just as in the US it would be insane to annoy them too much.

Yes, but Bush doesn't seem to have a problem with it. I think maybe they don't realize they're getting screwed; otherwise they might be more upset.  Confused
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 15):
I think maybe they don't realize they're getting screwed;

I thought Bush's tax cuts also benefitted the middle classes? Am I wrong?  Confused
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
I thought Bush's tax cuts also benefitted the middle classes? Am I wrong?

A bit, but it doesn't do them much good with income insecurity way way up. By income insecurity I mean white collar people losing their jobs (mainly to outsourcing) and having trouble getting another one that pays as well. The jobs that they get after being laid off almost always pay worse...often much worse. So in that way, yes...middle class people are getting screwed.
 
Pope
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 17):
A bit, but it doesn't do them much good with income insecurity way way up. By income insecurity I mean white collar people losing their jobs (mainly to outsourcing) and having trouble getting another one that pays as well. The jobs that they get after being laid off almost always pay worse...often much worse. So in that way, yes...middle class people are getting screwed.

Assuming for the sake of argument what you are saying is true, how is that impacted by tax policy? A job goes overseas not because there are tax incentives to do so, but because the comparative cost advantage that the foreign jurisdiction provides? Isn't this just a result of a freemarket functioning?

I would argue that there are substantial tax disincentives for moving jobs offshore. Remember the cost of labor is fully deductible against income whether the job is in the US or abroad. If the US disallowed the deduction for foreign labor it would probably be in violation of GATT. Whenever markets become free-er the market equilibrium will cause short-term adjustments until resource allocation achieves an optimal result. Are you against free markets?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
I would argue that there are substantial tax disincentives for moving jobs offshore. Remember the cost of labor is fully deductible against income whether the job is in the US or abroad. If the US disallowed the deduction for foreign labor it would probably be in violation of GATT. Whenever markets become free-er the market equilibrium will cause short-term adjustments until resource allocation achieves an optimal result. Are you against free markets?

That's kind of NOT the point I was making.

I'm against rampant outsourcing because it threatens my financial well-being. If you want to interpret that as being anti-free market, fine; I don't really care.
 
Pope
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:24 pm

At least in the US, the fundamental problem with our income tax system actually has nothing to do with income taxes. It has to do with our payroll tax which is imposed at the rate of 7.65% on all wages up to about $92,000/yr (the figure is annually indexed for inflation). Above $92,000 the rate falls to 1.65%. As such the tax is extremely regressive and many families (even those earning up to $50,000/year) pay more in payroll taxes than income taxes. (The payroll tax is also matched by the company for a total of 15.3% tax on payrolls).

With the variety of credits and deductions available to people whose AGI is less than $50,000/year, the federal income tax burden in the US is relatively light.

If either political party really wanted to provide a middle income tax cut, they'd reform the payroll tax system by flipping it on its head. Exempt the first $50,000 of wages and tax everything above it.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Pope
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 19):
I'm against rampant outsourcing because it threatens my financial well-being. If you want to interpret that as being anti-free market, fine; I don't really care.

Whether you intended to make that point or not, it is the point that was made. How would you propose stopping outsourcing without restricting the free-market? I believe that the two are theoretical impossibilities.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 20):
If either political party really wanted to provide a middle income tax cut, they'd reform the payroll tax system by flipping it on its head. Exempt the first $50,000 of wages and tax everything above it.

YEAH! I agree with that. People always forget about the payroll tax and how regressive it is.

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
Whether you intended to make that point or not, it is the point that was made. How would you propose stopping outsourcing without restricting the free-market? I believe that the two are theoretical impossibilities.

Your question assumes that I believe in unregulated, unfettered capitalism, hence it's a loaded question.

I don't believe there is a way to stop it REALISTICALLY, which is why I'm going to leave the I.T. field even though I enjoy it. I'm just sick of having this hanging over my head.
 
Pope
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 22):
Your question assumes that I believe in unregulated, unfettered capitalism, hence it's a loaded question.

My question doesn't assume anything. For every level of regulation a move to a less regulated market results in a more rational allocation resources. That's true whether you move from 100% regulation to 0% regulation or from 89% to 70% (these are just relative figures) the market adjusts. In modern society it is impossible to have a completely unregulated market. I just can't happen.

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 22):
I don't believe there is a way to stop it REALISTICALLY, which is why I'm going to leave the I.T. field even though I enjoy it. I'm just sick of having this hanging over my head.

We have 3 IT persons on staff at my company. When the most junior one joined us, he asked me what recommendation I would give him with respect to career development. I'll pass along that same advice to you. Technically competent IT professionals are fairly common. I wouldn't characterize them as a dime a dozen but it's not far from that. Technically competent IT professionals who understand how IT functionality can affect business operations are very few and far between.

Too often IT professionals view technology as a goal onto itself. In the business context the sole purpose technology serves is to help achieve corporate goals - which in my mind is maximize long-term shareholder value. We make it a requirement that someone from IT sit in on business meetings because we want them to understand what we are trying to accomplish. By doing this we've been able to leverage our technology to conduct business quicker and more efficiently than ever before. I'm proud to say that we've tripled revenues in 5 years and not had to add a single person in our back office operations. That's only achievable because our IT department has done an amazing job of aligning our technology with our business processes (or reshaping our business processes to maximize the benefits of technology). I assure you I wouldn't trade any of my IT professionals for an outsource worker even if it saved me 100%. Good people are always accretive to income.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 23):
My question doesn't assume anything. For every level of regulation a move to a less regulated market results in a more rational allocation resources. That's true whether you move from 100% regulation to 0% regulation or from 89% to 70% (these are just relative figures) the market adjusts. In modern society it is impossible to have a completely unregulated market. I just can't happen.

I think your statement assumes that if I'm opposed to outsourcing, I must be opposed to the free market. Even people who say they're in favor of the free market often behave as if they're opposed to it; just look at how protectionist some industries are. So this is a question I'm not going to waste any more time on because I don't see how it's relevant.

Quoting Pope (Reply 23):
We have 3 IT persons on staff at my company. When the most junior one joined us, he asked me what recommendation I would give him with respect to career development. I'll pass along that same advice to you. Technically competent IT professionals are fairly common. I wouldn't characterize them as a dime a dozen but it's not far from that. Technically competent IT professionals who understand how IT functionality can affect business operations are very few and far between.

This is true, but if you don't understand how IT functionality affects business ops then you shouldn't be in the industry in my opinion.

Quote:
Too often IT professionals view technology as a goal onto itself. In the business context the sole purpose technology serves is to help achieve corporate goals - which in my mind is maximize long-term shareholder value. We make it a requirement that someone from IT sit in on business meetings because we want them to understand what we are trying to accomplish. By doing this we've been able to leverage our technology to conduct business quicker and more efficiently than ever before. I'm proud to say that we've tripled revenues in 5 years and not had to add a single person in our back office operations. That's only achievable because our IT department has done an amazing job of aligning our technology with our business processes (or reshaping our business processes to maximize the benefits of technology). I assure you I wouldn't trade any of my IT professionals for an outsource worker even if it saved me 100%. Good people are always accretive to income.

Too often, managers are only interested in increasing profit in the short term rather than having a robust I.T. solution, so they outsource. The company I work for, while it has brought back some offshored work, has recently offshored critical database administration functions. According to the DBAs, it is going to be an unmitigated disaster. They're probably being a tad dramatic (they're biased) but we'll just have to wait and see what happens. My guess is that service and quality will suffer, since it almost always does.
 
oli80
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 23):
We have 3 IT persons on staff at my company. When the most junior one joined us, he asked me what recommendation I would give him with respect to career development. I'll pass along that same advice to you. Technically competent IT professionals are fairly common. I wouldn't characterize them as a dime a dozen but it's not far from that. Technically competent IT professionals who understand how IT functionality can affect business operations are very few and far between.

This is going off topic, but...

I work in I.T. for a local government in the UK. We separate our I.T. department into 3 sub divisions for exactly this reason. We have technical support (think networking, security, hardware etc.), web support (intra/inter net) and finally my division, business support. We work with every department in the council seeing how we can use I.T. to improve services with a goal of saving 5%.

I would have thought this structure would be common in a private company as well.

--------------- On topic

I'm quite happy getting rid of the 10% taxation. Why should people in the south pay for people in the north?

[spell check wasn't working]
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Oli80 (Reply 25):
Why should people in the south pay for people in the north?

Aside from all the issues about a nation being responsible for all its people, at the most basic level you have to to avoid chaos at all levels up to and including civil war. Say tax was never re-distributed, you'd have areas of extreme wealth and areas of abject poverty. Now, what do you think would happen with all the people in the poor areas? Discontent, riots, crime, and this would spill over to the affluent areas unless you have walled compounds. Marvellous. Just what we need, complete carnage.

So you have to re-distribute the tax income in order to have a cohesive society. All that then is at issue is the matter of degree.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
oli80
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 26):
So you have to re-distribute the tax income in order to have a cohesive society

So why are the lib dems suggesting that we should have local income tax? This would prevent the wealthy in London subsidising the relatively poorer people in the north.

And my comment was meant more as tongue-in-cheek. My family are from North Wales.  Wink
 
Banco
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting Oli80 (Reply 27):
So why are the lib dems suggesting that we should have local income tax? This would prevent the wealthy in London subsidising the relatively poorer people in the north.

How so? Their idea of local income tax is as a replacement for council tax, the funds going to the local authorities. It's just a way of raising the revenue for local services, it doesn't affect national re-distribution.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Pope
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 24):
I think your statement assumes that if I'm opposed to outsourcing, I must be opposed to the free market.

Once again, I assume nothing. I'm just asking how one can oppose outsourcing without opposing free markets. You say that it is possible, I'm just asking for an explanation of how that is rationalized because I just can't see how a government can implement policies that reduce outsourcing without restricting a market. Please explain.

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 24):
This is true, but if you don't understand how IT functionality affects business ops then you shouldn't be in the industry in my opinion.

Yet the majority of IT professionals fit this mold. I remember attending Microsoft's Convergence trade show a couple of years ago when they were touting .Net as being "revolutionary". When I would ask how that would impact business, they'd all go quiet and look away.

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 24):
Too often, managers are only interested in increasing profit in the short term rather than having a robust I.T. solution, so they outsource. The company I work for, while it has brought back some offshored work,

To me its a matter of using the right tool for the job. Outsourcing is good for data processing but not for value added activities.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting Oli80 (Reply 27):
And my comment was meant more as tongue-in-cheek. My family are from North Wales.

I visited North Wales...it was lovely, and the people were friendly. My neighbor is Welsh, and when his parents visit I just love listening to them talk. Off-topic, but I know the Welsh catch a lot of flak and I think it's undeserved.  bigthumbsup 

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
Once again, I assume nothing. I'm just asking how one can oppose outsourcing without opposing free markets. You say that it is possible, I'm just asking for an explanation of how that is rationalized because I just can't see how a government can implement policies that reduce outsourcing without restricting a market. Please explain.

Did I say it was possible? I don't recall saying that; in fact I recall dodging the question every time it was asked. I don't want to get dragged into an argument on the merits of the free market, since I'm ambivalent about it myself.

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
Yet the majority of IT professionals fit this mold. I remember attending Microsoft's Convergence trade show a couple of years ago when they were touting .Net as being "revolutionary". When I would ask how that would impact business, they'd all go quiet and look away.

That's too bad. When I was in SQA, I spent a good deal of my time thinking about little else. I also produced tons of reports to show the possible impacts on the company's revenue of software defects, and made business-based cases for performing certain types of tests or for performing tests in a certain way. Any SQA person who can't do that shouldn't advance to senior positions. I had my first senior position in SQA after 18 months of experience and I think I deserved that particular promotion. I'm not being arrogant...I'm just very good at it. I'm not doing SQA at the moment, but that's not to say I won't return to it.

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
To me its a matter of using the right tool for the job. Outsourcing is good for data processing but not for value added activities.

I can understand the temptation to outsource and I think it can be good for low-level activities but the problem is it will not stop there. They're already starting to outsource accounting and paralegal work. Where will it stop? My fear is that the middle class will suffer in the 00s and 10s like the working class did in the 70s and 80s as American manufacturing died a slow, agonizing death. I remember the 1980s...they sucked...and I don't want that to happen to me. It shouldn't happen to anybody. Some parts of the country have yet to recover, and it's about to happen all over again.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:20 pm

Hmmm . . . Gordon Brown: didn't the Stranglers write a song about him back in the '70s?

Gordon Brown texture like sun
Lays me down with my mind he runs
Throughout the night
No need to fight
Never a frown with Gordon Brown

Every time just like the last
On his ship tied to the mast
To distant lands
Takes both my hands
Never a frown with Gordon Brown

Gordon Brown finer temptress
Through the ages he's heading west
From far away
Stays for a day
Never a frown with Gordon Brown

Never a frown
With Gordon Brown
Never a frown
With Gordon Brown
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 15):
Yes, but Bush doesn't seem to have a problem with it. I think maybe they don't realize they're getting screwed; otherwise they might be more upset.

The only way the middle class here may be screwed is if Congress doesn't raise the threshold for AMT. Bush has been asking for this for years btw.

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
I thought Bush's tax cuts also benefitted the middle classes? Am I wrong?

No, you are correct.
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disruptivehair
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 32):
The only way the middle class here may be screwed is if Congress doesn't raise the threshold for AMT. Bush has been asking for this for years btw.

Heh...with a Republican congress willing to do anything he wanted them to from 2001 to early 2007, there's no excuse for it IMHO. The threshhold should be raised; it's obscene that so many middle-class families are being caught up by a tax meant to trap rich tax cheats. It's total B.S.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 33):
Heh...with a Republican congress willing to do anything he wanted them to from 2001 to early 2007, there's no excuse for it IMHO. The threshhold should be raised; it's obscene that so many middle-class families are being caught up by a tax meant to trap rich tax cheats. It's total B.S.

Unless you have 60 solid votes in the Senate it just doesn't work that way here. You need a super-majority in the Senate to have true control; things are much more equal there than they may seem on the surface. The Republicans, FYI, have never had this power during my lifetime; while the Democrats have had such power for quite a chunk of my life. If you think they're super-hot when they have the real power, I'll direct you to the late 70s when they last did have it and our economy absolutely sucked.

However, back on the subject of the thread, I would be interested in a concise, non-partisan summary of the taxation system in UK so I can better understand what's being discussed.
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Banco
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:02 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 34):
I would be interested in a concise, non-partisan summary of the taxation system in UK so I can better understand what's being discussed.

LOL. Yes, I think we'd all like something like that!

Here's as good an simple a summary as you'll find. The trouble is, personal taxation as an employee is different to taxation if you run a small business and so on and so forth.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/index.htm
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bhmbaglock
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 35):
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/index.htm

I was hoping for something in English, not government BS.  Smile

Pound # 34,601 is f*cking expensive! Is there not a graduated increase? Otherwise, that added single Pound would cost you more than 6000 !!!!!!!!

The National Insurance part makes my head hurt! WTF does all of that mean?

In reality, it's semantics at this point, but if anybody here proposed a tax called a "Stamp Duty", their blood would be running in the streets. Sounds pretty much like property taxes here which are local rather than Federal. American's aren't the best on history but the very idea of a Stamp Tax does still strike a nerve with most.

I guess, a better question would be, what do think your total effective tax rate is? I figure that Federal, State, ecise, local including sales tax, FICA, etc. is about 20-25% on a total income of a bit over $100k for the two of us.
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Banco
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 36):
Is there not a graduated increase? Otherwise, that added single Pound would cost you more than 6000 !!!!!!!!

The higher rate is only charged on earnings above that level. The rest is taxed at the lower rate, currently 22%, falling to 20% after the budget.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 36):
The National Insurance part makes my head hurt! WTF does all of that mean?

It's meant to pay for pensions, healthcare and the like. A rose by any other name...

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 36):
I guess, a better question would be, what do think your total effective tax rate is? I figure that Federal, State, ecise, local including sales tax, FICA, etc. is about 20-25% on a total income of a bit over $100k for the two of us.

As I mentioned further up, someone worked it out that British taxation is lower than US taxation. However I can imagine that being the case for comparative direct tax, but there are a great many more indirect taxes here, and government spending as a proportion of GDP is markedly higher here (now, at any rate, given the significant rises over the last decade) so I would imagine overall taxation is higher in the UK.
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bhmbaglock
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RE: UK Budget Abolishes 10% Income Tax Rate

Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 37):
However I can imagine that being the case for comparative direct tax, but there are a great many more indirect taxes here, and government spending as a proportion of GDP is markedly higher here (now, at any rate, given the significant rises over the last decade) so I would imagine overall taxation is higher in the UK.

Here's a nice table from Forbes that is a couple of years old:

http://images.forbes.com/images/global/2004/0524/074chart2_720_725.gif
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