ozglobal
Posts: 2517
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:59 am

Quote:
BBC:

"European environment leaders have said the US and Australia must alter their stance on climate change, as talks opened in Brussels on a major report.

EU Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas said a change of the US "negative attitude" to international climate treaties was "absolutely necessary".

The report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) will detail projections of climate impacts.

It is expected to forecast problems with supplies of food and water."

I would have thought with the impact of Global Warming in Australia, 'level 5' water restrictions (still defining what that means as things have never been so bad as now after a 10 year drought) that the fool Howard government would smell the coffee? (Oz citizen so no need to flame me).

As for the US administration, I am on record as far back as 2002 as being for 'regime change'!
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Halcyon
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:22 am

I think that the whole thing is blown crazily out of proportion. It's a bunch of alarmism in my opinion. Treating the environment is a personal responsibility, IMO, but letting it get you so freaked out is not sound.

Edit: What exactly is our current stance on this issue? I can't really say more without knowing.

[Edited 2007-04-03 01:25:35]
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2517
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 1):
I think that the whole thing is blown crazily out of proportion. It's a bunch of alarmism in my opinion. Treating the environment is a personal responsibility, IMO, but letting it get you so freaked out is not sound.

Call back when you are no longer allowed to water plants, lawn, fill your swimming pool, wash your car and they start rationing your personal showers and we'll talk. (Already happening in parts of Oz).

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 1):
What exactly is our current stance on this issue? I can't really say more without knowing.

How can you judge it alarmist when you don't even know your own country's position. It is ignorance that will be our undoing before all else.

[Edited 2007-04-03 01:58:11]
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 1):
Treating the environment is a personal responsibility, IMO, but letting it get you so freaked out is not sound.

Since you've missed the bus on the former several years ago, you're rapidly approaching the point where "freaking out" would be perfectly appropriate.

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 1):
Edit: What exactly is our current stance on this issue? I can't really say more without knowing.

The Bush administration still acts as if no meaningful action was necessary at all.

And the US Supreme Court has just now dealt a healthy slap in the administration's face, basically calling them irresponsibly complacent:

Split court rules against Bush on greenhouse gases - CNN.com
 
Halcyon
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:47 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
How can you judge it alarmist when you don't even know your own country's position. It is ignorance that will be our undoing before all else.

The stance is not alarmist, but getting in a tizzy when there is relatively little change is.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
Call back when you are no longer allowed to water plants, lawn, fill your swimming pool, wash your car and they start rationing your personal showers and we'll talk.

Sounds like a personal problem.  duck  My family has our own water source in MT, and here in Arizona we're doing fine. Sorry to hear about your drought.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):

Since you've missed the bus on the former several years ago,

My country? What should we do? What do I need to do as an individual?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
meaningful action

What is meaningful action? Just curious, not "freaking out."
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2517
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:04 am

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 4):
The stance is not alarmist, but getting in a tizzy when there is relatively little change is.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
Call back when you are no longer allowed to water plants, lawn, fill your swimming pool, wash your car and they start rationing your personal showers and we'll talk.

Sounds like a personal problem. duck My family has our own water source in MT, and here in Arizona we're doing fine. Sorry to hear about your drought.

Here's the rub, Halcyon: Our problems are ( in a real sense partly) your doing.... So don't tell me you're doing fine.

You don't have your own water source, you're part of a wholly interdependent climatic system on the planet.
What is going around will most assuredly come around.

Get it?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:06 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
And the US Supreme Court has just now dealt a healthy slap in the administration's face, basically calling them irresponsibly complacent:

Really?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070402/...;_ylt=AqJC.wcq9CZ8bPHegoDNJsqs0NUE

The court had three questions before it.

_Do states have the right to sue the EPA to challenge its decision?

_Does the Clean Air Act give EPA the authority to regulate tailpipe emissions of greenhouse gases?

_Does EPA have the discretion not to regulate those emissions?

The court said yes to the first two questions. On the third, it ordered EPA to re-evaluate its contention it has the discretion not to regulate tailpipe emissions. The court said the agency has so far provided a "laundry list" of reasons that include foreign policy considerations.

The majority said the agency must tie its rationale more closely to the Clean Air Act.


States have always had the right to challange the federal government, that is in the Constitution. The Federal Government has the right to regulate interstate commerce, that is in the Constitution. No where in the Constitution does it say it "has to" which is why the SC deferred on a direct ruling on the third question. The term Phyric Victory comes immediately to mind.

I have yet to be more amazed at pollution than my visit to Beijing a couple of years ago. Hardly any of the vehicles in use there would pass a tailpipe test here in the states. When I see them doing something to curb their emmisions then I'll start to wonder why we are not doing something more about ours. I have not been to India but I would not be surprised to find the same conditions there.

Once the again the left has chosen to try and obtain something by judicial fiat when it has become blatantly apparent that they cannot obtain what they want at the ballot box.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 6):
When I see them doing something to curb their emmisions then I'll start to wonder why we are not doing something more about ours.

That is true leadership... waiting for the last straggler to pass you by...!  crazy 

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 6):
Once the again the left has chosen to try and obtain something by judicial fiat when it has become blatantly apparent that they cannot obtain what they want at the ballot box.

Iraq has certainly shown that the US electorate is always right, hasn't it?  Yeah sure
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2517
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:14 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 6):

I have yet to be more amazed at pollution than my visit to Beijing a couple of years ago. Hardly any of the vehicles in use there would pass a tailpipe test here in the states. When I see them doing something to curb their emmisions then I'll start to wonder why we are not doing something more about ours. I have not been to India but I would not be surprised to find the same conditions there.

 crazy   crazy 

So London is burning, but I wont put out the fire in my street unless the other neighbourhoods do so first? I guess that's taking the moral high ground then.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 6):
Once the again the left has chosen to try and obtain something by judicial fiat when it has become blatantly apparent that they cannot obtain what they want at the ballot box.

The electorate in what passes for a democracy today do not have the information or the focus to form timely policy on all topics; Have you noticed? Therefore, occasionally, elected representatives introduce legislation to bring about necessary change. It's called 'political leadership'.

Let's talk again when London, NY and LA are under 30ft of water shall we? At least then you'll be sure the connection with human activities has been adequately substantiated.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15254
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
European environment leaders have said the US and Australia must alter their stance on climate change, as talks opened in Brussels on a major report.

That's nice. I think the EU should lower their agricultural subsidies. I'm sure they'll consider my opinion with as much regard as I entertain theirs Silly.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Halcyon
Posts: 1622
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:47 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
Get it?

Better get you some water fast, you're getting grumpy. Here's the thing: climates change. It's happened before and it'll happen again. I suppose you would have really had a fit if you lived in the great Plains in, oh, say the 1930s.

Now if someone would answer my questions instead of telling em I'm the problem, perhaps this might get somewhere. So far all I've seen is vague gloom and doom without solutions.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
You don't have your own water source, you're part of a wholly interdependent climatic system on the planet.

As it happens, the area where I live currently is doing fairly well, and seems to be shielded from what you're experiencing. Sure, that could change eventually, but so will everything.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):

Let's talk again when London, NY and LA are under 30ft of water shall we? At least then you'll be sure the connection with human activities has been adequately substantiated.

As RJdxer points out, the practices that we're using are a lot better than those in many places currently. What do you want us to do to be better? For the record, I don't think that NYC will be 30 feet underwater anytime soon.
 
MDorBust
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:01 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
Call back when you are no longer allowed to water plants, lawn, fill your swimming pool, wash your car and they start rationing your personal showers and we'll talk. (Already happening in parts of Oz).

So you are talking about every year in Texas from about March until October. Been that way as far as I can remember.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
RJdxer
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:09 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
That is true leadership...



Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Iraq has certainly shown that the US electorate is always right, hasn't it?

Well since we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, I guess you've rendered your opinion of us meaningless.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):
I guess that's taking the moral high ground then.

We're already on the moral high ground in comparision to China, India, Russia, and a whole host of third world countries.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):
Let's talk again when London, NY and LA are under 30ft of water shall we?

I have a feeling that will be in another life, unless of course a meteor strikes the Antartic or Greenland. Even then you'll have to convince me that it was actually man and not some other source that caused the change. So far all I have seen is a concentration of what man is doing to the almost total exclusion of any other source.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):

Iraq has certainly shown that the US electorate is always right, hasn't it?

Count on you to bring up Iraq when it has absolutely no connection to the subject....

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):
Let's talk again when London, NY and LA are under 30ft of water shall we? At least then you'll be sure the connection with human activities has been adequately substantiated.

It's this kind of statement, bordering on hysterical, that makes you lose credibility. Post a reliable source that says NYC or London or LA will be under water in any of our lifetimes...

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 10):
For the record, I don't think that NYC will be 30 feet underwater anytime soon.

 checkmark 
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
Springbok747
Posts: 4007
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:16 am

The Earth is screwed whether we act now or not...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v644/Springbok747/GlobalWhiningStop.jpg
אני תומך בישראל
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):
Well since we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, I guess you've rendered your opinion of us meaningless.

There is a big difference between leading others into or out of a disaster!

But every excuse for doing nothing will suffice, won't it?  Yeah sure

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):
We're already on the moral high ground in comparision to China, India, Russia, and a whole host of third world countries

No, you're not. China, India and most of the third world are very acutely aware of the dangers they face due to climate change - for many of them it is a matter of physical life and death - and that includes China, among others.

Their capabilities to engage in the solution are of course much smaller than those of the fully developed countries, so they have a difficult time entering into firm commitments.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):
I have a feeling that will be in another life, unless of course a meteor strikes the Antartic or Greenland.

Both Greenland and the Antarctic exhibit significant symptoms of climate change even now - if especially the main antarctic ice shields should reach their respective tipping points, the coastal cities would indeed be severely in trouble.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):
Even then you'll have to convince me that it was actually man and not some other source that caused the change. So far all I have seen is a concentration of what man is doing to the almost total exclusion of any

Because in the news tailored to gnat-like attention spans the wider background usually gets stripped off and only the "most interesting" aspects remain.

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 13):
Count on you to bring up Iraq when it has absolutely no connection to the subject....

When the wisdom of the US electorate is being put into the witness stand, you'll have to live with such reminders for at least a few more decades.
 
VHVXB
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):
So you are talking about every year in Texas from about March until October. Been that way as far as I can remember.

So you get constant rainfall from Nov. to Feb?? The difference between Texas and Australia is that the entire country is in drought not just a single state
 
galapagapop
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:03 am

This approach taken by the EU towards the top down, is not going to solve a single thing, Global warming has to start from the ground up. Go after the REAL polluters. We may have SUV's and lots and lots of factories, but they are held to a standard, this standard doesn't exist in lots of the world. I have no problem curbing engery use as a whole (not just shifting to renewable resources), but it's dumb to reliquish the market pressure currently faced on oil and coal through political means without capping the bottow end as well. It's simple economics, as the price of everything goes up from moving to newer resources, the prices of the polluting commodities goes down, and countries that haven't been tackled by the EU and others will simply feed off this basically subsidised energy and use it without even the US's lowest standards of emissions. I'm well aware of problems presented to some countries in moving to new energy sources, some countries we will be telling to not use their natural resources (oil) as a means of making some headway (or maybe just starting more trouble), but Global Warming is merely sensationalist still, all science and opinion says CO2, but what about Water Vapor? It makes up more of the greenhouse gas effect, but why aren't we chasing that? It's convient that CO2 was chosen as coal and Oil release the most CO2 when used than anything else, and as well know some just have a huge vendetta against oil companies, that 10% margin of profit is the marks of the devil you know........
 
Klaus
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:14 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 17):
but it's dumb to reliquish the market pressure currently faced on oil and coal through political means without capping the bottow end as well. It's simple economics, as the price of everything goes up from moving to newer resources, the prices of the polluting commodities goes down, and countries that haven't been tackled by the EU and others will simply feed off this basically subsidised energy and use it without even the US's lowest standards of emissions.

What are you talking about?

Your "standards" are worth exactly nothing if they still lead to a massively higher average consumption and exhaust production.

Have you ever compared the kinds of cars being driven elsewhere? Recently checked any european gas station for "subsidized" fuel prices? You'd be in for a major shock, I'm afraid.  crazy 

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 17):
but what about Water Vapor?

It's a factor (whose exact impact or even net direction is not yet understood with great precision), but it is not a byproduct of man-made processes nearly at the extent of CO2.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 16):
So you get constant rainfall from Nov. to Feb??

We wish. More like two days of rain. Mind you, it's enough to fill the lakes back up to the tops.. but it all comes in about two days. Three if we get lucky.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
There is a big difference between leading others into or out of a disaster!

I repeat, as you did, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. No matter what course we choose, save abject surrender of our soveriegnty, is not going to be good enough for someone. So we should just go our own way. How about if your country tries leading for awhile? We'll support you as you have supported us. That's fair right?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
Their capabilities to engage in the solution are of course much smaller than those of the fully developed countries, so they have a difficult time entering into firm commitments.

Excuses excuses yet the U.S. has none.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
should, would

The key words in your statement.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
Because in the news tailored

And of course anyone who would dare question the science is automatically treated to name calling and ridicule.

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 16):
The difference between Texas and Australia is that the entire country is in drought not just a single state

Isn't the majority of Australia a desert to begin with?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
YWG
Posts: 1055
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:35 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 17):
Go after the REAL polluters



Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 17):
We may have SUV's and lots and lots of factories, but they are held to a standard, this standard doesn't exist in lots of the world

Sadly there is no need for the same standards in third world countries who infact make these vehicles because they cannot afford to buy them.

I've been doing a lot of sociological research into this issue, and recently wrote this article which puts everything in it's place.

To put it into a basic idea, humanity is slowly destroying the Earth while we use up all of its resources. Sustainability is really the key issue we must look at when investigating man kind’s current role on this planet. Our marine environments are slowly being destroyed and over fished while everyday less and less fish swim in their waters. A big concern here is how we are interrupting their food chain in a drastic way. An example is that of the Urchin and Sea Otter. The Otter was over hunted and thus went the Urchins predator and with that came an explosion in their population. Now because there are most Urchins, there is a new need for more Duck Weed to feed them and came a decline in the Duck Weed of that part of the Ocean and you can see how it just continues to affect everyone down the line. Food, fiber and timber are also another important issue to address. The amount we are consuming for our ever growing homes and extravagant meals is coming very close to hitting an ecological wall. We are eating way to high in the food chain way to often to justify our needs. The amount of grain calories in order to make one kilogram of meet is just astronomical when we could have just consumed the grain, once again you can see why we should begin to think about sustainability. Lastly we must look at the water we are using. Less than one percent of the water we use is renewable. The water we waste and have to re-purify is a huge waste of energy. As well, we tend to pollute a lot of the water that surrounds us, making it unusable. Lastly with our increased consumption, comes the fact that we must draw more water from ever shallowing water sources to grow and feed our future food. Our population is growing on what can only be described as an exponential curve of disaster. Carrying capacity is the total number of individuals a given environment can sustainably support. In this case the environment is Earth, and we have yet to hit the ceiling yet, but the main issue here is we don’t seem to be concerned. Governments really need to unite and start thinking of ways to control their populations. If nothing is done, there will come a point when our worldwide population will hit capacity and most likely overshoot it as well. With this overshoot will come a few years of dwindling resources and what we refer to as dieback. Sadly this is the point where millions begin to die due to lack of resources, primarily in the poorer nations first, until Earth levels off at her carrying capacity. It’s something that really is not being taken seriously by enough governments at this point. Take for example The Republic of China, which limits their families to only having one child. At first I thought this was a ridiculous idea, but as I researched and dove more into the topic of carrying capacity and overpopulation, it made perfect sense. We as a species are using way too much of what the Earth has to offer. The sun is indirectly the largest contributor to biomass on Earth, and humans are using well over 50% of the available biomass. With that being said, what about the millions of other species on this planet? This is a main reason why three species go extinct a day. Another way to look at the distribution of resources worldwide is to look at our ecological footprint. Simply defined, it is the amount of land (in hectares) that one person would need to live their current life off of (food, cattle, water etc). The equation I=P x A x T (where I=ecological footprint, P=Affluence, A=Consumption per capita, and T=technological level) gives us an idea of where we stand in comparison to the rest of the world. I believe that North American’s footprint is equal to 60 African’s footprints, which is just an alarming number. Not only is this highly unequal, but the only reason why it is like this is because North America is a wealthier part of the world. This is not right, and the distribution of resources should be carefully thought out and spread fairly around the world. The fact that we are using up more and more non-renewable resources by the day when in the big picture of things we’re really not doing a lot of planning for the future and alternatives is just plain out absent minded.
The idea of ecological debt can be explained best in terms of money. Take for example $1000 (“The Earth”) in a bank account earning interest (“sustainable resources”). Now if we start spending past our interest into our capital, the next interest period will be less, and if you continue on this path you eventually will end off with no money left. The same can be said about our earth and the amount of renewable resources we use every year. Say if we cut down more trees in one year than the Earth can produce to cover that number, we are cutting into the capital of the Earth. Right now our population is working on 1.2 Earths, so we’re using .2 of our capital at this point, and we’re slowly eating away at our planet. Ecological debt is the idea that we must reduce the amount of resources we use in order to get our Earth back to her original “capital” and is measured in Planet Years. There are fourth paths that are listed in the Living Planet Report of 2004. The Slow Growth path really only slows us down a bit, or what will hopefully be enough time for us to realize that we must adopt one of the following three reduction phases or how to fix this problem with science and technology. If we were to allow this path to take place, we would hit around 40 planet years around 2050 with the continuation of debt ongoing. The second reduction idea is the 50% one. Projections show that we would reduce our footprint by 2030 with a total ecological debt of only 3.5 planet years. The third reduction would be the 67% idea, which would have our footprint level off around the year 2050 with a debt of 6 planet years. Lastly, the 88% idea forecasts that we would be leveling off our footprint at around 2100 with a debt of 20 planet years. The best answer to our problem is the 50% path in the ways of the most drastic action. This is easier said then done. Reducing any of our current ways would mean drastic shifts in the global economy. For example, our desire of exotic fruits and vegetables employees’ thousands of farmers, processors, truck drivers, pilots and grocery store employees which most of the time start off on the other side of the world. If we were to reduce the amount of automobiles we purchase and use, you can already see the decline in the oil market and automobile production plants. Thousands of skilled workers would be out of jobs, and would require training to fill the new void of employment with our new look on life. You can start to see how it is almost nearly impossible to get this done with most of today’s democratic governments. If earth is to survive we must protect our remaining ecosystems so that they may flourish, lower our total world population, reduce our ecological footprint and streamline the efficiency of our goods and services sector.
The issues of population size and levels of consumption really run hand in hand in our struggle to gain control of our world. To start off, the global population is growing at a staggering exponential rate and without a doubt will hit the carrying capacity of Earth. It is a proven scientific fact that the Earth can only support a certain number of people and to continue our current growth patterns is absurd. The Voluntary Human Extinction Movement is a group of individuals who basically want the human race to simple stop reproducing and to fizzle out of the world. This in fact would save millions of species from extinction caused by our greedy ways as a dominating species. Why anyone would want to do this certainly raises the question of sanity, but scientifically it would be the most intelligent way of action. To convince the entire world about their cause would simply be impossible with all of today’s religions and followings so we must look for alternatives. I believe in order to reduce our numbers we must find a way to limit the amount of kids we have, a lot like what China did. Child credits which could be sold exchanged would definitely bring our population under control in a civilized way. We must bring ourselves to understand that the days of having 2 or 3 child families are over. We seem to be getting a grip on reducing our levels of consumption, as we have seen with the introduction of various hybrid automobiles and the exploration of alternative energy forms. Many cities now have recycling programs which save millions of hectares of ecological footprints a year. While we are on a good path to success, it is only the beginning. We have to reduce the amount of high food chain items we consume and where they come from. Water is also a huge factor in this struggle. No one leads the pack in water conservation more than the city of Las Vegas. Not only are they in the middle of a desert and use a lot of water just to stay alive but they also have one of the strictest water bi-law systems in the world. The hotels with their extravagant fountains use recycled gray water rather than fresh water that will just be wasted through evaporation under the Nevada sun. On top of that, the residence of the city must adhere to various laws, which include not watering your lawn in the middle of the day, not having private fountains in your yard and making sure none of your pipes are leaking. Yet again we see another step in the right direct of conservation. We need to get the entire world on with us though, resources don’t adhere to boundaries and thus it’s all for one and one for all. So once we get our population growth under control we have to look at ways to conserve energy and become more local rather than international. The idea of Ecocities is amazing. Ecocities with only foot and bicycle traffic eliminates the need for most automobiles and the need for oil which produces millions of tons of pollution including carbon a year. This would also free up a lot more farm land to grow things locally that surround the city which in turn wouldn’t require a lot of energy to get to our dinner tables. So really the key thing at this point in our declining world is education. We need to educate the public rather than have a few select groups lobbying the governments for change and what not. Concerning population size, we really need to have some drastic government intervention without all of this voting and process garbage that would takes years and hit many economical road blocks. Because as mentioned above, the Earth is doomed if we don’t do anything. The idea that “technology will save us” is only a dream of many politicians and something must be done within the next upcoming generation of people or else we are finished.

YWG



The Living Planet Report 2004
http://assets.panda.org/downloads/lpr2004.pdf
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
PPVRA
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Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:36 am

http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/irradiance.gif

Why doesn't this get the same press that the graph showing CO2 following temperature change does?

[Edited 2007-04-03 04:40:29]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Halcyon
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:47 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):

Why doesn't this get the same press that the CO2 graph following temperature change does?

Because you can't make taxes on travel due to the sun? Because you can't get elected that way? I don't know. Mainly because it's not what's currently acceptable, I think. People like to follow the crowds.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:48 am

Quoting YWG (Reply 21):
I believe that North American's footprint is equal to 60 African's footprints, which is just an alarming number. Not only is this highly unequal, but the only reason why it is like this is because North America is a wealthier part of the world. This is not right, and the distribution of resources should be carefully thought out and spread fairly around the world.

If you stare long enough at the word flood you eventually find the socialist drivel underpinnings.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
galapagapop
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:15 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):

What are you talking about?

Your "standards" are worth exactly nothing if they still lead to a massively higher average consumption and exhaust production.

Have you ever compared the kinds of cars being driven elsewhere? Recently checked any european gas station for "subsidized" fuel prices? You'd bernin for a major shock, I'm afraid. crazy

European gas is far from subsidized, but the US has benefited from your taxing on your fuels, due to EU having lower consumption levels the US receives lower prices for the fuel, if people would just tax gas like the EUrnthings would change. It's more or less however arnpolitical suicide, but it's a fact, the US will only reduce consumption if someone eitherrnproperly obstructs the free market system, or oil as a whole is finally left to run on free market, till prices skyrocket from excessive demand. Consumers as see in any other industry flock to low prices.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
It's a factor (whose exact impact or even net direction is not yet understood with great precision), but it is not a byproduct of man-made processes nearly at the extent of CO2.

This is my point exactly, we do know it far out number's CO2 in terms of makeup of greenhouse gasses, in fact many other gasses beat CO2, but why avoid the big guy? Because it may actually be a case nature? So instead wernmove to the only thing we can even remotely link to Humankind? Our contributions on CO2 are still unknown, it's still just a guess. We only recently found grass fields to be better CO2 sinks than forests (contradicts West's Coast defense of the over forestation from the Rockies on, when really it's supposed to be more grasslands due to forest fires? Whoops I said a no no, Forest fires are the work of the devil, forgive me). Science treats CO2 as a prelude to higher temperatures and takes time to take effect, when really it's the opposite. CO2 sees jumps during and AFTER temperatures rise. Is it possible CO2 is merely a byproduct? If you know biology it follows that same path. Also I'd look at the charts for solar spots and the correlation betweenrnincreased magnetic activity from the Sun, withrnincreasing cloud cover, and increasing temperatures.

BTW please don't think I'm a big polluter nut who cuts down forests (Although I have a very poor mileage car, around 10MPG right now, but keep in mind I'll pay gas and keep going till $5 a gallon easy, I ain't complaining). Right now we are in a period of temperature rises (although we've seen a tad bit of a decline in many areas ove the last few years). But I think focus should be put on the physical land aspects of nature, CO2 can't get recycled without proper forests and grasses, but problem is suburbanization has ravaged more havoc on nature than CO2 could ever potentially will. McMansions, Suburban sprawl have eaten natural vegetation and removed predators, deemed dangerous to children and dogs, leaving deer over population in the Northeast US. In the West there has been over growth and population growth that has strained already starving water supplies in the area, and now have resulted in unnatural practices forest regrowth. From the Rockies on it was always recorded when settlers first arrived that it was mainly grasslands, with sparse tree cover, that resulted in smaller little forests, but now with the fear ofrnforest fires, has resulted in gigantic over forestation which threatens to push out the natural survivors and species that excel after forest fires (Torrey Pines for example) and replace them with generally weaker species that now present more of a fire risk than ever before (not made to best withstand fire), all because houses in LA and the West coast come far before the natural way of things, I could go onto New Orleans but you get the picture. Our misuse of land and misunderstanding of natures predators (living or otherwise) cause most of the Earth's ills.

Cheers!
 
VHVXB
Posts: 5309
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:28 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 20):
Isn't the majority of Australia a desert to begin with?

Yes but people on live in coastal areas are affected as well

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 19):
More like two days of rain. Mind you, it's enough to fill the lakes back up to the tops.. but it all comes in about two days. Three if we get lucky.

well its better than what we get which is nothing at all weeks on end
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2517
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 4:56 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):
I guess that's taking the moral high ground then.

We're already on the moral high ground in comparison to China, India, Russia, and a whole host of third world countries.

We are constantly told by the US about its leadership role in the world. For various historical reasons, at this point, the US does have the potential to be a global leader. What's hard to swallow is the dual message: "We are the superior civilization with the greatest military and economic power; Follow and learn from us, because we have the greater good at heart." and, at the same time, "We are a sovereign nation, simply serving our own interests, what more do you expect of us."

The problem is you don't get to be both. The reason you get so much criticism is that your foreign policy, in this case on climate change, directly impacts the rest of the world. You don't get to do that and say, "Leave us alone we are isolationist."

If you live outside the US for a time, you will start to see the way your nation presents itself on the global stage and its attitude to attempts at global collaboration, such as the above report on climate change.

The report in question is the best available data todate on the issues. The international community is trying to make best efforts at what is probably one of the most vital issues in recent centuries. The official US stance is not helping this effort today.



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 13):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 8):
Let's talk again when London, NY and LA are under 30ft of water shall we? At least then you'll be sure the connection with human activities has been adequately substantiated.

It's this kind of statement, bordering on hysterical, that makes you lose credibility. Post a reliable source that says NYC or London or LA will be under water in any of our lifetimes...

A rhetorical device, clearly, but I hope you understand that that is the agreed ultimate consequence should the Greenland ice cap and major ice sheets of Antartica melt. I will not here try and convince you this is happening. Take a look at the recent official international reports on the subject (IPPC).

Original 2001 report; Current IPPC report undergoing final drafting with present conference:

http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/416.htm

[Edited 2007-04-03 10:01:10]

[Edited 2007-04-03 10:09:47]
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:27 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 11):
So you are talking about every year in Texas from about March until October. Been that way as far as I can remember.

Rubbish. I grew up in Texas and cannot recall any water restrictions that were that draconian. Even with last year's drought the people I know back home weren't reporting anything near that severe.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):
No, you're not. China, India and most of the third world are very acutely aware of the dangers they face due to climate change - for many of them it is a matter of physical life and death - and that includes China, among others.

Yeah...I guess that's why they're building all those coal-fired plants.

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 16):
So you get constant rainfall from Nov. to Feb?? The difference between Texas and Australia is that the entire country is in drought not just a single state

One could ask why you have swimming pools on the driest habitable continent on earth in the first place.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 27):
If you live outside the US for a time, you will start to see the way your nation presents itself on the global stage and its attitude to attempts at global collaboration, such as the above report on climate change.

I've lived outside the US for six years now. Clearly the US's approach to environmental issues is incorrect, but Europeans are definitely not saints either. I get sick to death of the sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitudes I see here in the UK and in Europe as a whole. It isn't as if people here don't use electricity, don't drive cars, don't own washing machines and televisions, don't buy produce grown in Africa (contributing to global warming via food miles), don't buy goods made in China...and support for the climate change theories floating around is far, far, FAR from universal here.

I'm not sure if you can read this from your high horse...might want to step down off it.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2517
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RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:40 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 28):
Quoting VHVXB (Reply 16):
So you get constant rainfall from Nov. to Feb?? The difference between Texas and Australia is that the entire country is in drought not just a single state

One could ask why you have swimming pools on the driest habitable continent on earth in the first place.

How much time have you spent in Australia. Have you any idea how silly this sounds?

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 28):

I've lived outside the US for six years now. Clearly the US's approach to environmental issues is incorrect, but Europeans are definitely not saints either. I get sick to death of the sanctimonious, holier-than-thou attitudes I see here in the UK and in Europe as a whole. It isn't as if people here don't use electricity, don't drive cars, don't own washing machines and televisions, don't buy produce grown in Africa (contributing to global warming via food miles), don't buy goods made in China...and support for the climate change theories floating around is far, far, FAR from universal here.

I'm not sure if you can read this from your high horse...might want to step down off it.

An American living last six years in UK/EU. Yes, would be tough. I am similar: Australian living in Europe (mentioned in opening post) and I turned my first criticism to my own country.

My interest here is the issues, not what you call my "high horse". The fact that many of our compatriots still speak as if Global Climate change were not yet proven to be anymore than leftist beat up leads me to some strong rhetoric (You have to get their attention).

Please do not interpret this as an attack on yourself as a US citizen anymore than it is on myself as an Oz citizen.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:46 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 29):
How much time have you spent in Australia. Have you any idea how silly this sounds?

Why don't you just answer the question?

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 29):
Please do not interpret this as an attack on yourself as a US citizen anymore than it is on myself as an Oz citizen.

After six years of hearing the above, it's hard not to.

What *I* think never means a damn thing to Europeans. They don't seem to care that there are a lot of Americans who care about the environment, who worry about climate change, and who DIDN'T vote for that moron Bush. They just focus on the ones who did and tar us all with the same brush. I'm sick to death of people here being surprised that I speak a language other than English; I'm sick of them patting me on the back and saying 'good for you' when I mention I voted for Gore; I'm sick of them saying 'Wow, you're not like most Americans.' I am. I'm not unique. I'm not even unusual. It's so patronizing.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2517
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:11 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 30):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 29):
How much time have you spent in Australia. Have you any idea how silly this sounds?

Why don't you just answer the question?

OK.

i) Whilst a large percentage of Oz is arid or semi arid, areas the size of Western Europe or the eastern states of the US are quite fertile and include rain forests, temperate pastoral regions and even extensive snow covered mountainous areas in winter.

ii) 90% + of the population live in five major cities in fertile coastal areas.

iii) Most Australians live in warmer sub tropical or warm temperate regions and have hot summers.

iv) Almost all Australians live next to the sea in a country with 36,000 km of coastline, much of it beach.

v) Hence swimming and swimming pools have always been a big part of the lifestyle. Australia has dominated swimming for much of the last century. Sydney alone has over 1 million swimming pools (public and back yard). You'll recall freestyle swimming was origninally known as "the Australian crawl".

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 30):

After six years of hearing the above, it's hard not to.

What *I* think never means a damn thing to Europeans. They don't seem to care that there are a lot of Americans who care about the environment, who worry about climate change, and who DIDN'T vote for that moron Bush. They just focus on the ones who did and tar us all with the same brush. I'm sick to death of people here being surprised that I speak a language other than English; I'm sick of them patting me on the back and saying 'good for you' when I mention I voted for Gore; I'm sick of them saying 'Wow, you're not like most Americans.' I am. I'm not unique. I'm not even unusual. It's so patronizing.

Perhaps it's different in the UK, but in France I have a number of American expat friends with whom I see eye to eye with politically / ideologically. They tend to be respected for their views and not disqualified from debate due to their nationality. People here may be anti-US gov policy (like most Americans today it seems), but distinguish between gov policy and individuals.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 31):
OK.

i) Whilst a large percentage of Oz is arid or semi arid, areas the size of Western Europe or the eastern states of the US are quite fertile and include rain forests, temperate pastoral regions and even extensive snow covered mountainous areas in winter.

ii) 90% + of the population live in five major cities in fertile coastal areas.

iii) Most Australians live in warmer sub tropical or warm temperate regions and have hot summers.

iv) Almost all Australians live next to the sea in a country with 36,000 km of coastline, much of it beach.

v) Hence swimming and swimming pools have always been a big part of the lifestyle. Australia has dominated swimming for much of the last century. Sydney alone has over 1 million swimming pools (public and back yard). You'll recall freestyle swimming was origninally known as "the Australian crawl".

No, I won't recall that; in fact I've never heard the freestyle referred to as the 'Australian Crawl.' Perhaps I'm not old enough.

From what I've read/heard from other Australians, Australia has had water supply problems for a long time...decades...and people there just keep building swimming pools and English cottage gardens when the landscape and climate won't support it. We Americans get bashed for doing it; why shouldn't we bash Australians for doing the same thing?

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 31):
Perhaps it's different in the UK, but in France I have a number of American expat friends with whom I see eye to eye with politically / ideologically. They tend to be respected for their views and not disqualified from debate due to their nationality. People here may be anti-US gov policy (like most Americans today it seems), but distinguish between gov policy and individuals.

It's important to understand that American expats are a rare breed, and if they're not in the military they are usually left of center politically...which you seem to be...so it's not surprising that you would see eye-to-eye with them. They're also usually quite eager to criticize American politics/policy/culture/etc., since if they adored America they wouldn't have left in the first place. I've found American expats in the UK to be some of the most insufferable gits I've ever met.

A lot of British people are perfectly able to distinguish between government policy and our own individual opinions; the problem is they just don't seem to care. They criticize anyway. They say things like 'Why are all Americans so stupid?' and 'Why are all Americans so fat?' (We're not.) Gee, I don't know...why are all British people such illiterate drunks with stupid accents? (They're not.) Europeans can get away with saying pretty much anything about Americans, but if we turn it around and say equally ridiculous things about them, we're accused of being ignorant, intolerant racists. The double standard drives me nuts. I genuinely hate living in Europe and I can't wait to leave; Europeans have just made it so damned unpleasant. And don't even get me started on the media.
 
UAXDXer
Posts: 700
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:36 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:48 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 3):
The Bush administration still acts as if no meaningful action was necessary at all.

And the US Supreme Court has just now dealt a healthy slap in the administration's face, basically calling them irresponsibly complacent

And what exactly is Germany doing to stop global warming? I sure hope you can save us here in the states too!
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2517
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:08 pm

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 32):
We Americans get bashed for doing it; why shouldn't we bash Australians for doing the same thing?

Because in the current gist of your post, it would make you guilty of the behaviour you are condemning.

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 32):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 31):
Perhaps it's different in the UK, but in France I have a number of American expat friends with whom I see eye to eye with politically / ideologically. They tend to be respected for their views and not disqualified from debate due to their nationality. People here may be anti-US gov policy (like most Americans today it seems), but distinguish between gov policy and individuals.

It's important to understand that American expats are a rare breed, and if they're not in the military they are usually left of center politically...which you seem to be...so it's not surprising that you would see eye-to-eye with them. They're also usually quite eager to criticize American politics/policy/culture/etc., since if they adored America they wouldn't have left in the first place. I've found American expats in the UK to be some of the most insufferable gits I've ever met.

i) How did you classify me as "left of centre".
ii) Aren't you generalizing about American expats in the same way you complain Europeans generalize about Americians. Aren't you one yourself? Isn't it driven by the same frustrating personal experiences in both cases?
iii) "Seeing eye to eye" with people doesn't mean we all fit into some narrow little socialist huddle, just that we can have a healthy debate without retreating into nationalist ideological fury.

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 32):
I genuinely hate living in Europe and I can't wait to leave; Europeans have just made it so damned unpleasant.

Sorry to hear you feel that way.

[Edited 2007-04-03 12:13:48]
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:21 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 34):
Because in the current gist of your post, it would make you guilty of the behaviour you are condemning.

No, it wouldn't; I don't have and never have had a swimming pool.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 34):
i) How did you classify me as "left of centre".

Your remarks.

Quote:
ii) Aren't you generalizing about American expats in the same way you complain Europeans generalize about Americians. Aren't you one yourself? Isn't it driven by the same frustrating personal experiences in both cases?

Yes, I'm an American expat and I know many other American expats. I used to be involved with various groups and without exception they were left of center, US-hating tofu knitters. I don't consider it generalizing; I think I've seen a large enough sample to form a valid opinion...whereas I'm the first American most Brits I encounter have ever met, i.e. they haven't seen a large enough sample to form a valid opinion. Do you see the distinction?

Quote:
iii) "Seeing eye to eye" with people doesn't mean we all fit into some narrow little socialist huddle, just that we can have a healthy debate without retreating into nationalist ideological fury.

Because leftist Americans generally aren't patriotic, they're unlikely to descend into nationalist ideological fury for any reason.
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 34):
Sorry to hear you feel that way.

So am I. I came here with high hopes.
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
Call back when you are no longer allowed to water plants, lawn, fill your swimming pool, wash your car and they start rationing your personal showers and we'll talk. (Already happening in parts of Oz).

As someone who spent over a month in Oz this year and dealt with tons of rain the entire time I was there in Brisbane and Sydney I just have to ask one thing...whose bright idea was it to put the resevoirs on the dry side of the Great Dividing Range? You are your own worst enemy when you put them in a spot that doesn't get rain. I understand the drought you are having is a long term thing (welcome to Georgia for 7 of the past 10 years and starting again this year) but it looks like poor planning on your part.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
VHVXB
Posts: 5309
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 37):
As someone who spent over a month in Oz this year and dealt with tons of rain the entire time I was there in Brisbane and Sydney I just have to ask one thing...whose bright idea was it to put the resevoirs on the dry side of the Great Dividing Range?

I do remember you saying this and it did rain a lot but nothing over the catchment area. So the dry and green side is completely irrelevant in this situation
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:19 pm

I'm glad the EPA will be setting new standards for car emissions. I envision that what will happen in the short term is driving restrictions. We will be mandated to carpool at certain times of the day and solo driving will be restricted to other times. Truck transport will be heavily restricted as well. People will bitch about the inconvenience, and the higher prices of goods due to transport restrictions, but if it keeps traffic down to a minimum, and gives me an excuse to not HAVE to be somewhere, that's fine.

Someone earlier spoke of the "low US standards." This is pure hyperbole. Many factions of the US (governments and corporations--Marriott, for instance) are doing/have done a lot to reduce greenhouse gases. Power producers are spending billions on emissions controls, much of it mandated by Federal and/or state regs. And they are required to issue periodic reports to the EPA and local/state government agencies that show actual results of pollutant monitors.

One problem the US has (among the population) is a protracted fear of nuclear power. What could be a very good energy source is completely disregarded.
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 39):
One problem the US has (among the population) is a protracted fear of nuclear power. What could be a very good energy source is completely disregarded.

Three Mile Island still sticks in peoples' minds, along with Chernobyl. I think it's short-sighted myself; the French are close to achieving energy independence and they've done that with the help of nuclear power. Unfortunately with nuclear power it takes a long time and a lot of investment to set up a plant and our current crop of politicians seem to be pathologically myopic.
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 38):
I do remember you saying this and it did rain a lot but nothing over the catchment area. So the dry and green side is completely irrelevant in this situation

Their placement is not irrelevant. Common sense would dictate that you put the reservoirs somewhere that they can catch rainfall. If you put them in the dry spots then water restrictions are nobody's fault but your own. It rained more in one day while I was in Sydney than it had in over 100 years but yet not a drop in the reservoirs.

Poor planning on Australia's part doesn't constitute an emergency on ours. Weather is cyclical and right now you are in a bad cycle. Perhaps it will change as it did here in Georgia after 10 years and you'll have tons of water.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:47 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:06 pm

So is Oz building desalination plants or what are they doing about it? About 3 summers ago, we were nearly out of water down here in the Algarve (southern Portugal) and even though they'd recently completed a massive dam not that far away, it was empty. So apart from turning off the water from about 10am- 5pm, no-one had much of a clue and local government wasn't saying much. And then it rained, and the last 2 winters have been wet, so problem solved... at least until this current crop of politicians move on and it doesn't rain for a while. The point is, two thirds of our planet is covered in water; you'd think we'd be better at managing it.

Anyway...

Quoting Disruptivehair (Reply 32):
Europeans can get away with saying pretty much anything about Americans, but if we turn it around and say equally ridiculous things about them, we're accused of being ignorant, intolerant racists. The double standard drives me nuts. I genuinely hate living in Europe and I can't wait to leave; Europeans have just made it so damned unpleasant

What's with this "European" thing? Europe is a continent, not a country, despite what some EU fans would have you believe. We don't refer to you as "North Americans". Relax, take a trip down here. We don't hate Americans.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
VHVXB
Posts: 5309
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 41):
If you put them in the dry spots then water restrictions are nobody's fault but your own.

yes this well setup in rural/regional areas but there is no rain.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 41):
It rained more in one day while I was in Sydney than it had in over 100 years but yet not a drop in the reservoirs.

Like I said before there was no rain over the catchment area
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 27):
If you live outside the US for a time, you will start to see the way your nation presents itself on the global stage and its attitude to attempts at global collaboration, such as the above report on climate change.

If you live in the U.S. for any length of time you learn that everybody wants a handout and everyone is looking to take this country down a peg or two. As I said at the top of the thread we are damned if we do and damned if we don't which is why a lot of people in this country just don't care what the rest of the world thinks anymore. Same thing I told Klaus applies to you, how about if we let your country lead for awhile and we'll support you just like your country has supported ours.  frown 

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 39):
I'm glad the EPA will be setting new standards for car emissions.

That's not what the court said they had to do. The court only said that the clean air act give them the authority to regulate co2 emissions. It does not say that they have too.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 39):
Truck transport will be heavily restricted as well.

Then you'll starve since if it got to the store it got there by truck.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
disruptivehair
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:28 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:27 pm

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 42):
What's with this "European" thing? Europe is a continent, not a country, despite what some EU fans would have you believe. We don't refer to you as "North Americans". Relax, take a trip down here. We don't hate Americans.

I'm told the Spanish do; I haven't heard what the Portuguese think. We don't get a lot of them up here in the UK.  Big grin
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 44):

That's not what the court said they had to do. The court only said that the clean air act give them the authority to regulate co2 emissions. It does not say that they have too.

Ok. Thanks for clarifying.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2517
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 44):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 27):
If you live outside the US for a time, you will start to see the way your nation presents itself on the global stage and its attitude to attempts at global collaboration, such as the above report on climate change.

If you live in the U.S. for any length of time you learn that everybody wants a handout and everyone is looking to take this country down a peg or two. As I said at the top of the thread we are damned if we do and damned if we don't which is why a lot of people in this country just don't care what the rest of the world thinks anymore. Same thing I told Klaus applies to you, how about if we let your country lead for awhile and we'll support you just like your country has supported ours. frown

i) Lived in the US for several years. Where have you lived outside the US?
ii) I don't recall my recent countries of residence/origin asking for or getting "a hand out" from the US (Mainly asking for fair trade, but that needs another thread).
iii) You 'said' the US is damned either way, but that does not make it true. What is requested is neither 'Leadership' nor 'Isolationism', but COLLABORATION.
iv) Should we understand you despair of working productively with the international community? I hope not.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:39 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 44):
That's not what the court said they had to do. The court only said that the clean air act give them the authority to regulate co2 emissions. It does not say that they have too.

That is correct, but the NY Times article (registration required): http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/washington/03scotus.html?th&emc=th

states: "The ruling does not force the environmental agency to regulate auto emissions, but it would almost certainly face further legal action if it failed to do so." You can bet they'll be doing something.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 44):
Then you'll starve since if it got to the store it got there by truck.

Sounds a bit dramatic and sensationalist to me. Stricter regulations will push the oil companies and/or others to try to better develop alternative energy sources. Trucks will still drive around, shelves will have food on them, prices may go up a bit and deaths from inhalation of particulate matter (a fallout of diesel fuel combustion) will decline.

All this in addition to CO2 emission reduction.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: US 'has To Act' On Climate Report

Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 47):
Lived in the US for several years. Where have you lived outside the US?

Don't have to have lived anywhere outside the U.S. to understand that some countries want to do nothing more than try and take advantage of us to their gain.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 47):
I don't recall my recent countries of residence/origin asking for or getting "a hand out" from the US (Mainly asking for fair trade, but that needs another thread).

I'm on my way to work but I will happily research the countries that have asked for foreign aid in just the past year. When the Tsunami struck in the Indian Ocean basin we were criticized for not giving enough by many countries. Happens all the time.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 47):
but COLLABORATION.

Collaboration at what cost to this country? More than a few countries that signed the ill fated Kyoto agreement have failed to meet their obligations. I shudder to think of the recriminations and cost to this country if we had been stupid enough to sign on to that piece of junk science.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 47):
I hope not.

No need to hope, it's a done deal. I say rest of world, fend for yourselves is your ideas are so much better.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 48):
You can bet they'll be doing something

I'll take that bet. The NY Times is editorializing as usual.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 6):
The court said yes to the first two questions. On the third, it ordered EPA to re-evaluate its contention it has the discretion not to regulate tailpipe emissions. The court said the agency has so far provided a "laundry list" of reasons that include foreign policy considerations.

The majority said the agency must tie its rationale more closely to the Clean Air Act.

That is far different than...

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 48):
but it would almost certainly face further legal action if it failed to do so

Nowhere in the Constitution is the SC given the power to mandate what a regulatory agency in the Executive Branch must regulate.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 48):
prices may go up a bit

A bit? If it were to happen we would almost certainly be reading about Grandma and Grandpa having to decide between which brands of dogfood to choose from. If the technology were there and readily available at economical means, don't you think some one would already be trying to make a buck on it? BTW, how much SNOW are they forecasting for later in the week?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!

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