Mir
Topic Author
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What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:23 am

In an effort to keep the other threads about the VT shooting free of lobbying for stricter or more lenient gun control, I figured starting a thread for that purpose would be a good idea.

So, what restrictions (if any) on firearms would you consider appropriate? Remember that the goal is not to get rid of guns, but to get rid of gun crimes. Getting rid of guns entirely would be a way to do that, but would be a huge undertaking, and it is naive to think that one could get rid of every single gun in the US, both legally and illegally acquired. Conversely, I don't think that giving everyone in the US over 18 a handgun would be a good idea either. So the solution lies somewhere in the middle.

I'm of the mind that the process of buying a gun should be designed at making sure that only those responsible enough to own a gun are able to buy one, and that those who do buy them are not mentally unstable. They should be able to operate a gun safely, and be able to shoot to a certain standard of accuracy. In the two threads about VT there were various comments on how a trained civilian might have been able to do some good in the situation. I don't doubt that, but I also noticed that those making those comments had training that seemed to go above and beyond the norm (please correct me if I'm wrong), and I'm not convinced that your average gun owner would be of any use in such a situation, and might even be a danger to others and themselves.

So what say you? And please try to keep things civil.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
luv2fly
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:29 am

Between the pro and the anti you are never going to resolve this issue! It rates up there with trying to get old people to give up there drivers license when they can no longer drive safely.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
NKP S2
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:36 am

This is what I say:

Enforce the myriad of existing gun laws already in existence before attempting yet another "feel good" restriction. Resist temptation to grandstand by not thinking "....we've gotta do SOMEthing....."
 
MDorBust
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:47 am

I'll save everyone the speculation right off the bat. I am a life member of the NRA. I am a law enforcement officer and a licensed PPO as well as a CHL holder. I am also an avid hunter and sport shooter. I carry a weapon both professionally and personally. So there you go, you know my bias up front.

That out of the way, I support the right for any person who is legally an adult to purchase and carry a firearm as long as:


  • They have not been convicted of any felony, sexually oriented crimes involving minors, DUI/DWI or domestic violence
  • They have not been found to be mentally disturbed
  • They can prove themselves to be competent with the use, maintenance and storage of the type of weapon they are choosing to purchase. There should be separate proficiencies for:

    • Auto loading rifles/shotguns
    • Mechanically operated rifles/shotguns
    • Revolvers
    • Self loading pistols



Firearms should not be allowed to be carried in any location whose designated purpose is the sale of alcohol, or pending future changes in law... any location designated for the sale of mind altering substances.

Firearms should be registered in a federal level database. But, that database should only be accessible for the purposes of investigating or prosecuting a crime in which that firearm was used. (possession alone should never be considered, unless that possession is illegal under the previous list of qualifications.)

There should be very stiff felony level penalties for people who make firearms available or accessible to minors or to persons not qualified to own a firearm.

The 14th amendment should be applied to the 2nd amendment, and firearms laws should be nationalized so that they are uniform throughout the country.

The 1934 National Firearms Act should be left intact limiting the ownership of automatic weapons, silencers and short barreled rifles/firearms to those persons willing to submit to additional government oversight and expenses.

*edit* spelling

[Edited 2007-04-19 03:55:03]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
aace24
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:49 am

Most of the people who do unlawful things with guns, get them illegally.

The problem isn't that our gun laws are flawed, they just need to be more closely followed and enforced.

Quoting Mir (Thread starter):
And please try to keep things civil.

This thread has about a 2% chance of staying civil.
 
luv2fly
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting AAce24 (Reply 4):
Most of the people who do unlawful things with guns, get them illegally.

The shooter at VT got his legally!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
aace24
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:52 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 5):
The shooter at VT got his legally!

Notice I said most people.
 
MDorBust
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 5):
The shooter at VT got his legally!

Because of a flaw in the system. People who have judgements of being mentally disturbed are not supposed to be able to buy guns. How this person did needs to be investigated.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
aace24
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:55 am

The problem in the VT case is that mental health records are kept completely private.

Which is stupid, IMO.
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6672
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 5):
The shooter at VT got his legally!

No law is fool proof. No provisions to prevent pychos from getting guns is 100%. The best we can do is to put meaningful laws in place (they already exist and are on the books) and enforce them. Will some lunatic get through? Yes. Butthe majority of folks who can legally purchase a firearm are law abiding citizens that want the firearm for hunting, sport, collection, self defense or some combination of the above.

This lunatic fooled more than one person. Though now everyone is coming out of the woodwork saying something was wrong with him.

[Edited 2007-04-19 04:00:48]
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
People who have judgements of being mentally disturbed are not supposed to be able to buy guns.

Can you name one law that supports this statment?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
They have not been found to be mentally disturbed

I agree with the sentiment on this. The problem (as I mentioned in another thread) is not only comming up with the provisions for this, but working around Hippa and Dr./patient privacy rights. MAYBE being baker acted could be public flag that could be incorporated into the currently required background check, but that would take an act of a very corrupt congress.

Otherwise I think most states and the current federal regulations are fine as they are. Eveyone has to wait for the background check for a hand gun, and the laws of most states I know work fine save the psychological loophole.
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greasespot
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
That out of the way, I support the right for any person who is legally an adult to purchase and carry a firearm as long as:




They have not been convicted of any felony, sexually oriented crimes involving minors, DUI/DWI or domestic violence

They have not been found to be mentally disturbed

They can prove themselves to be competent with the use, maintenance and storage of the type of weapon they are choosing to purchase. There should be separate proficiencies for:



Auto loading rifles/shotguns

Mechanically operated rifles/shotguns

Revolvers

Self loading pistols





Firearms should not be allowed to be carried in any location whose designated purpose is the sale of alcohol, or pending future changes in law... any location designated for the sale of mind altering substances.

Firearms should be registered in a federal level database. But, that database should only be accessible for the purposes of investigating or prosecuting a crime in which that firearm was used. (possession alone should never be considered, unless that possession is illegal under the previous list of qualifications.)

There should be very stiff felony level penalties for people who make firearms available or assessable to minors or to persons not qualified to own a firearm.

The 14th amendment should be applied to the 2nd amendment, and firearms laws should be nationalized so that they are uniform throughout the country.

The 1934 National Firearms Act should be left intact limiting the ownership of automatic weapons, silencers and short barreled rifles/firearms to those persons willing to submit to additional government oversight and expenses.

Being Canadian I agree...Perhaps i might add a couple extra..

Safe storage laws...Plus i would drop the ability to own a silencer and automatic weapons...Plus i think that in most cases a waiting period between purchase and pick-up(that can be flexiable but perhaps a cooling off period for Domestics might be a good idea...May stop the "in the heat of the moment"

As a newly minted PO my views have changed somewhat...


GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
L-188
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:04 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 11):
think most states and the current federal regulations are fine as they are.

Agreed, but there is a big habit of basing laws on the looks of the weapon.

Although I would prefer to see the gun laws implemented after the Kennedy Assasination rolled back even farther.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
MDorBust
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:21 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 11):
Can you name one law that supports this statment?

I don't have a firearms purchase form in front of me so I'll just have to wing it from memory. One of the majic questions that must be answered concerns judgements of mental conditions. Any wrong answers and no gun. Perhaps someone who has a yellow form can provide the proper text.

I believe the language originated in the 1968 Gun Control Act.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 11):
Eveyone has to wait for the background check for a hand gun,

Not since the creation of the NCIS. Background checks are done by a phone call to the proper authorities while the customer waits. Certain results of the NCIS check may require a longer check which do then enact the full waiting period.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 11):
The problem (as I mentioned in another thread) is not only comming up with the provisions for this, but working around Hippa and Dr./patient privacy rights.

Aren't there already provisions in place for the violation of Dr./Patient privacy in situations that require notification of authorities?

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 12):
Plus i would drop the ability to own a silencer and automatic weapons...

In some places, using a silencer is considered courteous.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
L-188
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
In some places, using a silencer is considered courteous.

Oddly enough in some of the countries with the most reprehensible gun control laws like Sweden. As you state if you are lucky enough to get the government to allow to own a firearm you are expected to have a silencer on it to keep the noise pollution down.

I have a Cech built CZ in .22LR that had the Euro-spec threaded barrel on it to take a silencer.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
TedTAce
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 13):
Aren't there already provisions in place for the violation of Dr./Patient privacy in situations that require notification of authorities?

 no  if you think about it when someone is usually baker acted it is a concerned 3rd party requesting that the police have the subject evaluated this is all public knowledge that is not protected by HIPPA. The second that person hits the door at the facility THEN it's Dr. Patient unless there is never a reason to release the subject. I know you came up with some points about mental stability (un credited), but if it's on a form to be filled out before the gun is purchased do you honestly think anyone is going to say 'yes I'm a whack job'?
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MDorBust
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 15):
...but if it's on a form to be filled out before the gun is purchased do you honestly think anyone is going to say 'yes I'm a whack job'?

I've gone to gun stores to arrest people that have answered "yes" to the question: "Are you a felon?"

Good times.

I'll have to ask me sig O when I get home about disclosure to law enforcement. She does that Counseling thing.

1968 Gun Control Act

Prohibited Persons

  • Anyone who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year, excluding crimes of imprisonment that are related to the regulation of business practices.
  • Anyone who is a fugitive from justice.
  • Anyone who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
  • Anyone who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
  • Any alien illegally or unlawfully in the United states or an alien admitted to the United states under a nonimmigrant visa.
  • Anyone who has been discharged from the US Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
  • Anyone who, having been a citizen of the United states, has renounced his or her citizenship.
  • Anyone that is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
  • Anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence. (See the Lautenberg Amendment.)
  • Anyone who is under the age of 18 for a shotgun or rifle, or under age 21 for a handgun. (See 18 U.S.C. § 922 (b)(1).)
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):

I'll save myself the trouble of retyping and simply echo MDorBusts thoughts here.


Furthermore, I concur with Greasespot. Weapon storage laws. Particularly whe there are children in the vicinity.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Yellowstone
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:03 pm

To MDorBust's list up in Reply 3, which I think is highly sensible (although I wouldn't necessarily make gun laws uniform nationwide, as localities may be better able to assess what laws would go the furthest toward reducing gun crime in their own community), I would add a couple more.
1) Gun owners should be required by law to secure their guns with trigger locks, to prevent their being fired by unauthorized people (especially children). Rifles should be required to be stored in a gun safe.
2) Gun manufacturers should work towards developing fingerprint readers that could be installed in guns, further ensuring that they are only fired by qualified people. Of course, the technology to do this isn't developed/cheap enough at this point, so this is more of a long term goal.
3) A waiting period.
4) Allow businesses and universities, if they so choose, to prohibit the carrying of guns while on the premises. It's their private property, so they can set conditions on who can enter.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
aa757first
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 15):
I know you came up with some points about mental stability (un credited), but if it's on a form to be filled out before the gun is purchased do you honestly think anyone is going to say 'yes I'm a whack job'?

Well thats how a Mental Status Examination works (a psychiatric evaluation). Do you feel sad a lot, etc. It's easy to answer the questions correctly if you want to deceive the person doing the exam. Now, if your psychotic, it'll be obvious to the clerk and you probably won't be able to fill out the form anyway.

I think that you should have to be 18 years old, have passed a background check, have attended a gun safety course and have firearms sold only in the proper places with staff trained know gun laws thoroughly and notice obvious signs of mental instability. A mandatory one day waiting period for guns isn't a bad idea. There should be a huge crackdown on illegal firearms.
 
MDorBust
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 18):

Some thoughts on why I didn't include some of your points.

Trigger locks. - They're useless. Almost beyond useless. An improperly installed trigger lock actually makes it easier to discharge a firearm. I was in a class once where the instructor, as a demonstration, fired the full load of a Remmington 870 shotgun with a trigger lock installed. We currently have legislation that mandates locking devices be sold with every new firearm. Use them at your discretion. This also ties in with discharge prevention devices. You mentioned fingerprint readers. Problems: What if you are wearing gloves? Or if the weapon needs to be used in a muddy or rainy situation? There was a company that developed rings that would interface with a weapon to let it know the person was authorized. Problem: What if the shooter needs to use their other hand because of injury? The best answer, and easiest answer is in proper training for the person owning the weapon and their family, and yes, proper storage.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 18):
4) Allow businesses and universities, if they so choose, to prohibit the carrying of guns while on the premises. It's their private property, so they can set conditions on who can enter.

Yes, the rights of the property owner should be respected.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
turbo7x7
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:37 pm

I'd say a waiting period and a registration requirement sounds pretty sensible to me.

Virginia, by the way, has neither.
 
L-188
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:38 pm

Quoting Turbo7x7 (Reply 21):
Virginia, by the way, has neither

The VT perp bought his weapons a month and a half ago. Lot of good a waiting period would have done.

They are in fact worthless.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:59 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 11):
Plus i would drop the ability to own a silencer and automatic weapons.

I think this is not really a problem in the US. Legally obtainable automatic weapons are extremely expensive in the US (due to the 1986 gun control act which forbids the import or manufacture of automatic weapons for non-government and law enforcement institutions). As a example: a legal STEN submachine gun will cost you at least $5000 and you can get it only if you have a FFL plus you satisfy additional conditions, e.g. the BATF can check on the guns at any time without notice. A BREN light machine gun costs at least $10.000. This means that the legal automatic weapons are more seen as a investment and collectible by serious collectors, who keep them safely locked away in a safe and take them out from time to time to shoot them at the target range.
AFAIK, since decades there has no crime been comitted in the whole US using a legaly registered automatic weapons.

They are definitely out of the range of wannabe gangsters.

Illegaly imported, stolen from government armouries or illegaly manufactured automatic weapons are another matter. But in this case just the possession is a felony punished with 10 years in a federal prison plus a hefty (bancrupting) fine.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
miamiair
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:44 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 10):
Can you name one law that supports this statment?

Ted, see 12.f

http://www.atf.gov/forms/4473/

I am now hearing that the shooter had been diganosed/declared? mentally defective in 2005. Therefore if that was the case, it would have been illegal for him to purchase the firearms. But that is easy to get around, all you have to do is write "NO" in box 12.f. When you call for a background check, it won't appear because of patient confidentiality. This is what I have a problem with. It is easier to take my rights away in this case, than to take away (privacy rights) of a person that is mentally defective due to privacy issues. It should not be a gun law, but a coomon sense law as a person that is screwed in the head be listed in some sort of database so that this person would not have access to firearms, security clearances etc. The ACLU will most definetly get their knickers in a bunch over this, but it will become necessary. If a program would have had him listed, and he went to purchase a firearm, it would be noted and an entry made stating the person tried to purchase a firearm, and the authorities notified, as there is cause to suspect the person is up to no good. The shooter then would have had to buy the gun from an illegal source and we get down to the crux of the problem; enforce the gun laws that are on the books already, no need for more of them.

Reduce magazine capacity? Instead of having 3 15 round, miscreants will have 9 five round magazines.

Make guns illegal for civilians? People that don't care about the law will have them.

Make some calibers illegal? This shooter also had a .22 cal pistol, that up close is just as deadly.

Make rational decisions based on common sense, not emotional knee-jerk reactions to recent events. Elected officials such as Feinstein, Schumer and Pelosi must be drooling at the mouth over how best to use the fallout from this incident.

[Edited 2007-04-19 13:07:56]

[Edited 2007-04-19 13:08:56]
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
TedTAce
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:38 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Weapon storage laws. Particularly whe there are children in the vicinity.

I think Florida has them already. Unfortunately when children die, parents aren't usually charged b/c 'loosing their kid was punnishment enough'. I think that's  redflag  If you are stupid enough to leave a gun out and your child dies as a result, you deserve some jail time too. I know the police are always giving away free gun locks, so there REALLLY is no excuse.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 24):
But that is easy to get around, all you have to do is write "NO" in box 12.f. When you call for a background check, it won't appear because of patient confidentiality. This is what I have a problem with.

 checkmark 

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 24):
Elected officials such as Feinstein, Schumer and Pelosi must be drooling at the mouth over how best to use the fallout from this incident.

This is why both sides are so repulsive right now that I'm probably going to write in "Howard the Duck" for every position I can vote on.
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baroque
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:35 am

Wonder what W Earp would have posted.
 
turbo7x7
Posts: 242
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
The VT perp bought his weapons a month and a half ago. Lot of good a waiting period would have done.

They are in fact worthless.

What made you think I was referring to the VA Tech incident at all? And "worthless" is a huge exaggeration. Everyone knows the waiting period is to try to reduce "crimes of passion" and suicides, which are done by people who are nowhere near as mentally disturbed as Mr. Cho was. Obviously, some other kind of approach will be needed to try to filter out the crazy people away from the guns.

In any case, I'm sure the tired, cynical, pseudo-intellectual response is that potential suicides or perpetrators of "passion crimes" will just find another way to get a gun (via the black or grey market), or use a knife or blah blah blah blah. . .  Yeah sure
 
TedTAce
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 20):
An improperly installed

I am sorry I didn't see this before now. An IMPROPERLY installed trigger lock is about as good as an imporperly installed child seat in a car. I guess part of making this sensible would be making the gun owner demonstrate that they can effeicively use the lock so no one can use the weapon. That sounds fair to me.
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Yellowstone
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 20):
They're useless. Almost beyond useless

Is the problem that some designs work and some don't, or are all of them easily defeatable? If the first situation is the case, the government ought to set standards for trigger lock designs. CA recently did this, requiring that handgun purchases be accompanied by a trigger lock chosen from a list of models tested and approved by some state board.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
They have not been found to be mentally disturbed

Call me crazy, but some might argue that wish to own a deadly offensive weapon could be interpreted as a sign of mental illness, since no normal healthy sane urban dweller is ever likely to need one.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 30):
since no normal healthy sane urban dweller is ever likely to need one.

Sorry. You're wrong. Dead wrong.
This is opinion and not fact.

I am also quite sane, not mentally disturbed (except my the membership here on occasion  wink  ), and I own several weapons.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Delta767300ER
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:43 am

"Guns dont kill people, People kill people". I dont think stricter gun laws will work. As several users have stated, most gun crimes are by persons not permitted to have guns or have acquired them illegally. If I wanted to, I could drive to a section of my town and pick up a fully automatic AK-47. If someone wants to kill a bunch of people bad enough, they could use other tools than guns. An automobile comes to mind.......

-Delta767300ER
 
greasespot
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Furthermore, I concur with Greasespot. Weapon storage laws. Particularly whe there are children in the vicinity.

 yes 

I might also add that if a person is harged with any kind of violent offense or subject to a mental heal evaluation the person's guns are taken and they are in-eligiable to own them.. *not sure if this would be a life time ban*

It woud be life in the case of a domestic violence convition...



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 30):
Call me crazy, but some might argue that wish to own a deadly offensive weapon could be interpreted as a sign of mental illness, since no normal healthy sane urban dweller is ever likely to need one.



Now until i started shooting i never realised how much fun it can be.....Would I buy a gun....dunno....but your opinion is that.....just like for me i cannoot figure out why anyone likes sewing.....they just do....


GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Banco
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 30):
but some might argue that wish to own a deadly offensive weapon could be interpreted as a sign of mental illness, since no normal healthy sane urban dweller is ever likely to need one.

Thing is, it's a utopian dream to think that there is a way (even if desired) of disarming the entire population in the US. All you'll have a is a situation where the only people with weapons are the criminals, which is not exactly an improvement. No, nice idea though it might be to say that guns could be taken out of the equation, it's impossible, and you have to deal with reality. Most of the suggestions above about tightening the regulations are sensible ones. There are the usual issues about whether assault weapons should be available, and those arguments have been gone over many, many times. But the truth is, saying as a solution that you wouldn't start from here doesn't really get anyone anywhere.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
rwsea
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:57 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 30):
Call me crazy, but some might argue that wish to own a deadly offensive weapon could be interpreted as a sign of mental illness, since no normal healthy sane urban dweller is ever likely to need one.

I would agree to an extent. There are inrefutable statistics which say that owners of a gun are many times more likely to be injured by that gun, than prevent a similar injury from happening to them. There are reasons for owning a hunting rifle or other guns, but I don't know why anyone needs a semi-automatic.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 31):
Sorry. You're wrong. Dead wrong.
This is opinion and not fact.

I am also quite sane, not mentally disturbed (except my the membership here on occasion ), and I own several weapons.

Right, and how many times have you had to use them for self-defense (and I'm talking about in the everyday course of business, not related to employement or otherwise)? Again, it's been shown many times that having a gun at home is more likely to get you injured rather than to protect yourself.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 31):
"Guns dont kill people, People kill people". I dont think stricter gun laws will work. As several users have stated, most gun crimes are by persons not permitted to have guns or have acquired them illegally. If I wanted to, I could drive to a section of my town and pick up a fully automatic AK-47. If someone wants to kill a bunch of people bad enough, they could use other tools than guns. An automobile comes to mind.......

The fact is that if the VT shooter wasn't able to buy a pistol in the manner that he did, it would have been much more challenging for him to carry out his acts. It doesn't go without saying that someone that dedicated would likely have been able to get a gun illegally if they wanted it that bad, but I would assume that there would be a bug drop in gun-related violence if they were that much harder to get. And you're right that people would still find ways to kill other people, but the primary use for which a car is intended is transportation. A gun is created with the intent that it will be used to harm a person or a thing. That's a pretty drastic difference.

Quoting Banco (Reply 34):
Thing is, it's a utopian dream to think that there is a way (even if desired) of disarming the entire population in the US. All you'll have a is a situation where the only people with weapons are the criminals, which is not exactly an improvement. No, nice idea though it might be to say that guns could be taken out of the equation, it's impossible, and you have to deal with reality.

Unfortunately that's true, and that's what's so depressing about the whole thing. I still don't (and never will) buy the notion that people need to carry guns for self-protection. But unfortunately, there's all these guns out there, so it's a tough situation. And I admittedly don't know the answer. I would start by closing loopholes and enforcing laws more closely, and by further banning semi-automatic weapons and making that definition slightly more broad.

And finally, to those of you who scream second amendment anytime this comes up, I'd like to remind you that the 2nd amendment was written during a time where it took minutes to reload after a single shot. The founders did not have today's guns in mind when they included it in the constitution.
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5546
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:13 am

I am kind of on the fence here,
Do I beleive I need to own a gun of any type? not really.
Do I think all weapon ownership should be outlawed? well no.

I do beleive in the point made several times that if laws were tightened only legal gun owners would be affected and the bad guys would still carry.

How is this for an idea, instead of stiffening the laws, stiffen the penalties.
If you are caught with an unlicensed weapon, jail time and long jail time, automatically no appeal no questions.
Street punk car thief, corner dope dealer etc might think twice about carrying if he knew the outcome was likely having the key to his cell thrown away.
Maybe, maybe not but just a thought.

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:38 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 35):
Right, and how many times have you had to use them for self-defense (and I'm talking about in the everyday course of business, not related to employement or otherwise)?

Against a human or a Grizzly. The score is 0/1. I was pretty damn glad to have that Ruger Redhawk along that day.

But - BUT - like any good, sensible person, I'd rather be ready than be a victim.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 35):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 31):
"Guns dont kill people, People kill people". I dont think stricter gun laws will work. As several users have stated, most gun crimes are by persons not permitted to have guns or have acquired them illegally. If I wanted to, I could drive to a section of my town and pick up a fully automatic AK-47. If someone wants to kill a bunch of people bad enough, they could use other tools than guns. An automobile comes to mind.......

The fact is that if the VT shooter wasn't able to buy a pistol in the manner that he did, it would have been much more challenging for him to carry out his acts. It doesn't go without saying that someone that dedicated would likely have been able to get a gun illegally if they wanted it that bad, but I would assume that there would be a bug drop in gun-related violence if they were that much harder to get. And you're right that people would still find ways to kill other people, but the primary use for which a car is intended is transportation. A gun is created with the intent that it will be used to harm a person or a thing. That's a pretty drastic difference.

Not my quote, A-net victim of circumstance. However: His point is accurate.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Queso
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:13 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 30):
Call me crazy, but some might argue that wish to own a deadly offensive weapon could be interpreted as a sign of mental illness, since no normal healthy sane urban dweller is ever likely to need one.

You are wrong.

Check out some of these news articles as a small example: http://www.tsra.com/?p=news&cat=6
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 30):
Call me crazy

You are crazy, but that has been established through several other threads  Yeah sure
This space intentionally left blank
 
N174UA
Posts: 860
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:07 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 35):
There are inrefutable statistics which say that owners of a gun are many times more likely to be injured by that gun,

Yeah, probably. But ultimately, if you own a gun, you're responsible for it, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Period. If it's not on you, then it needs to be locked up. You're repsonsible to make sure you know how to properly use the gun at all times. If a gun owner is dumb enough to injure himself/herself with their own gun, then they either need to a.) retake a gun safety class and actually pay attention to the teacher or b.) sell it

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 35):
how many times have you had to use them for self-defense (and I'm talking about in the everyday course of business, not related to employement or otherwise)? Again, it's been shown many times that having a gun at home is more likely to get you injured rather than to protect yourself.

Whether it's 1 or 1,000 times, it's irrelevant. I'd rather be prepared and have a way to defend myself against a threat. If I end up dead, then that's unfortunate, but at least I went down fighting for my life.

I hate to do this, and I probably shouldn't, but the passenges on United 93 improvised and use a coffee cart and other items to fight back and defend themselves. They weren't going down without a fight, even if perhaps they knew they wouldn't get out alive. They fought to the end for themselves and their country.

Moving on...

If I'm Wayne LaPierre of the NRA right now, I better be thinking ahead, and carefully. If you look at my signature, it says "look forward, and reason back." That's what he and the NRA needs to do. What do I mean? The worst thing that could happen would be if more VT's happened (god I hope they don't, obviously) but on a much, much bigger (and tragic) scale.

See, right now....whether they admit it or not, whether they're members or not, most Americans still side with the basic NRA position that gun laws are useless. It's a non-issue in Congress, and candidates are reluctant to say anything in campaigns. It cost Gore, and maybe Kerry, the election. That's why no new laws have passed that seek to restrict rights.

Now...if there were many more of these VT-sized tragedies, I predict that a lot of "silent" support the NRA enjoys will evaporate, and the end result will be very restrictive laws, and the NRA at that point, for the most part, would become much less effective and lose a lot of their clout, probably forever.

The NRA should seek to strengthen the EXISTING background check law to include stalkers, sexual predators, people who draw attention to themselves like Cho through his...um...writings shall we say, and other potentially serious threats. What if....what if...the store owner could know that a.) Cho was a student and b.) VT had on record that he had written threatening literature and was a stalker? I bet the store employee, upon learning THAT nugget of info., would have declined the sale, and in that case, in each of the stores where the two guns were purchased. The background check should not only look at past criminal activity, but look at what's going in the person life right now...so if someone had a restraining order filed agains them, then no gun. Registered sex offender? No gun.

I agree that passing more laws is USELESS. But the NRA should consider supporting more detailed background checks in the future. I think they would gain a lot of respect from non-members by doing so, and take further heat off themselves in times like these by being a part of the bigger solution.

I don't own any guns myself, but I support the right, and the NRA and the 2nd amendment. One day, I may choose to buy a gun, probably a shotgun for target practice (clay pigeons) and/or a .357. Whether I have to wait 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, or 1 week, I have nothing to hide. I'm not worried, because it will come back clean.

I think the background check compromise is workable...it strengthens an existing law, and it doesn't restrict gun buying for honest people. Sure they have to wait...but I think most people probably wouldn't mind waiting an extra day or so, if it meant someone like Cho was denied.
 
L-188
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:41 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 29):
or are all of them easily defeatable?

Depends, Are you also going to bad 3/8ths inch drill bits and bolt cutters?

Quoting N174UA (Reply 40):
people who draw attention to themselves like Cho through his...um...writings shall we say, and other potentially serious threats.

That won't work, who is to define what is a threat. That is one of the reasons on many of the concealed carry permits, there have been movements to convert them from, "May Issue" to "Shall Issue". Too many police chiefs where only signing off on those requested by their buddies and political hacks.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 41):
Depends, Are you also going to bad 3/8ths inch drill bits and bolt cutters?

Of course, no measure is foolproof, but that trigger lock might keep the gun owner's kids from accidentally putting a bullet through their head if they find the gun in the closet somewhere.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
L-188
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:47 pm

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 42):
but that trigger lock might keep the gun owner's kids from accidentally putting a bullet through their head if they find the gun in the closet somewhere

It might, but I would point out those two kids that shot up their middle school in Arkansas about 10 years ago actually got their grandpa's welding torch out of the garage and used that to access the weapons in his gun safe.

Not something I would have been able to credit most 12 year olds with doing.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
mrniji
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:07 pm

One sensible law only:

Ban 'em
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
WestJetYQQ
Posts: 2763
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:31 pm

RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting Mir (Thread starter):
What Are Sensible Gun Laws?



Quoting Greasespot (Reply 11):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
That out of the way, I support the right for any person who is legally an adult to purchase and carry a firearm as long as:




They have not been convicted of any felony, sexually oriented crimes involving minors, DUI/DWI or domestic violence

They have not been found to be mentally disturbed

They can prove themselves to be competent with the use, maintenance and storage of the type of weapon they are choosing to purchase. There should be separate proficiencies for:



Auto loading rifles/shotguns

Mechanically operated rifles/shotguns

Revolvers

Self loading pistols





Firearms should not be allowed to be carried in any location whose designated purpose is the sale of alcohol, or pending future changes in law... any location designated for the sale of mind altering substances.

Firearms should be registered in a federal level database. But, that database should only be accessible for the purposes of investigating or prosecuting a crime in which that firearm was used. (possession alone should never be considered, unless that possession is illegal under the previous list of qualifications.)

There should be very stiff felony level penalties for people who make firearms available or assessable to minors or to persons not qualified to own a firearm.

The 14th amendment should be applied to the 2nd amendment, and firearms laws should be nationalized so that they are uniform throughout the country.

The 1934 National Firearms Act should be left intact limiting the ownership of automatic weapons, silencers and short barreled rifles/firearms to those persons willing to submit to additional government oversight and expenses.

Being Canadian I agree...Perhaps i might add a couple extra..

Safe storage laws...Plus i would drop the ability to own a silencer and automatic weapons...Plus i think that in most cases a waiting period between purchase and pick-up(that can be flexiable but perhaps a cooling off period for Domestics might be a good idea...May stop the "in the heat of the moment"

As a newly minted PO my views have changed somewhat...

That's exactly what I would have said, though Canada's gun laws are pretty reasonable as is. I find the US to be absolutly outrageous.  flamed 
Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:25 pm

Quoting WestJetYQQ (Reply 45):
I find the US to be absolutly outrageous.

Funny that is the way that I feel about the Canadian laws.

In particular that national registry that even your PM finally had to admit was a waste of money.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Kay
Posts: 1797
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:41 pm

RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:01 pm

Quoting Mir (Thread starter):
I don't doubt that, but I also noticed that those making those comments had training that seemed to go above and beyond the norm (please correct me if I'm wrong)

/flame suit on
Those making those comments "had training that seemed to go above and beyond the norm"? Thank you very much, but "trés peu pour moi merci". The level of responsibility of using a gun is as much if not more important than being skillfull. Josey Wales the outlaw was skillful (my favorite movie as a child).

The US is not the same as Europe, I know, but distributing guns to students for protection in the classroom, is, to me, a bit extreme. How about, again, unfortunately, metal detectors at the entrance of the university buildings? Sorry, but I can't see any other solution. The frequency of these crimes may not be that high yet, but once it is, that may be one of the most logical outcomes. It is to me.

And my message to everyone who are passionate about guns (I like them myself, loved them as a child), why not join a profession that allows you to carry them frequently, legally, and constructively?

Otherwise, just leave them at home to protect your home, and stay safe when out. A gun is not necessary for that. Come on people.

/double flame suit on
Kay

[Edited 2007-04-20 12:01:56]
 
sulman
Posts: 1963
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:24 pm

Firearm licensing here in the UK requires a medical letter before you're even issued a license. You need that license to purchase any firearms, and ammunition.

Whilst I consider UK gun laws prohibitive (my dad had to give up his Mauser .22 because he moved house, and no longer had local land to shoot on - a proviso of the license) I think the pre-license screening a good idea.

James
It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
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RE: What Are Sensible Gun Laws?

Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:54 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 33):
I might also add that if a person is harged with any kind of violent offense or subject to a mental heal evaluation the person's guns are taken and they are in-eligiable to own them.. *not sure if this would be a life time ban*

Here the rules are that felonies are usually removed from the record ten years after the person has finished his sentence and the person has obeyed the laws since then.

The German arms act of 2003 also says that if there are any doubts by the licence issuing authority (usually a state ministry of interior), the applicant can be sent to a psychological-medical evaluation. This is mandatory if the applicant is below the age of 25.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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