tbar220
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Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:14 pm

Yesterday was a terrible day in Baghdad and throughout the country of Iraq.

***

BAGHDAD - Grieving relatives retrieved bodies from hospital morgues Thursday, and passers-by gawked at the giant crater left by a market bomb in one of four attacks that killed 183 people on the bloodiest day since the U.S. troop increase began nine weeks ago.

But violence did not abate Thursday, as a suicide bomber exploded in another mostly Shiite district, killing at least 11 people and wounding 28, police said. The car bomb exploded next to a fuel tanker in Karradah, setting fire to the truck. The death toll was expected to rise.

U.S. officials have reported a decrease in sectarian killings in Baghdad since the U.S.-Iraqi security crackdown was launched Feb. 14. But the past week has seen several spectacular attacks in the capital, including a suicide bombing inside parliament and a powerful blast that collapsed a landmark bridge across the Tigris River. The number of bodies dumped in the streets of Baghdad also has risen significantly.

Brig. Gen. Qassim al-Moussawi, the Iraqi military spokesman, said, "We have not seen such a wave of attacks since the security plan began. These are terrorist challenges. Ninety-five percent of those killed today were civilians."...

...Nationwide the number of people killed Wednesday or found dead was 233, which was second only to a total of 281 killed or found dead on Nov. 23, 2006. Those figures are according to AP record-keeping, which began in May 2005.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070419/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

***

I hope that these people find peace soon, and I hope that our soldiers come home soon.
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TedTAce
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:25 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
I hope that these people find peace soon, and I hope that our soldiers come home soon.

Me too. You got to wonder if the more twisted republican operatives are taking some delight in the VT incident as a distraction. This story was barely visible in last nights coverage.
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miamiair
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
I hope that these people find peace soon.

That won't happen until other countries stop meddling in Iraq's internal affairs.

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
I hope that our soldiers come home soon

Not until the job done, mission accomplished.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:37 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 1):
Me too. You got to wonder if the more twisted republican operatives are taking some delight in the VT incident as a distraction. This story was barely visible in last nights coverage.

What the hell are you talking about, Ted?

These stories are never huge media events. Never reaching 1/10 the size of the VirginiaTech story.

And it has nothing to do with political operatives.  Yeah sure It has everything to do with the fact the American public is completely removed from the war being wage 8,000 miles away.

It's not top news, because a lot of people don't care.

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
I hope that these people find peace soon

I just don't know how it can be done, until we find some way to teach Muslims to have respect for the lives of other Muslims. There is so much killing in the name of Allah occurring in Iraq, one wonders if Allah has a direct hot-line to these murders? They certainly seem to be getting "messages" by the hour from him.

Iraqis killing Iraqis. Syrians killing Iraqis. Iranians killing Iraqis. Saudis killing Iraqis. Yemeni killing Iraqis. And the moment US soldier step between their barbaric killing sprees... they instantly become the focus of each and every one of them.

We're the cops trying to break up a drunken bar fight.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
TSS
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
We're the cops trying to break up a drunken bar fight.

Or worse yet, we're the cops trying to break up a long-running and drunken domestic disturbance.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
to teach Muslims



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
lives of other Muslims.

-
Muslims, Muslims, Muslims .............. and what has the whole mess to do with Islam and "Muslims" ? True, people in the area happen to be Muslims ..................................
-
the problem has a name and that is "Iraq". You can blame various sides, but it of course is a fact that internal conflicts inevitably leads to "help" from neighbours, for instance in the Spanish Civil War, as shown here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica


-
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
We're the cops trying to break up a drunken bar fight.

Sounds like a prison riot, actually. Time to back out and let them sort it out themselves.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 2):
Not until the job done, mission accomplished.

I thought that happened on May 1, 2003.



We've had our "fun" in the big sandbox. Time for the boys to pick up their toys and come home.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
the cops trying to break up a drunken bar fight.

what about the cops leaving the bar ?  duck 
-
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):

Great example of what is wrong with the Middle East; instead of pointing the finger, laying blame, you ENABLE, you profer excuses, reasons for why things are the way they are. Offer a solution that is viable.

That way you won't have to dodge rocks.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
QueenofDaSkies
Posts: 94
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:12 pm

the REAL question is, when is it a good day in Baghdad?
It's time to FLY!
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):

Yup I blame Muslims for the majority of the killing.

Because you see MAF... I am totally and completely NUTS! You see... I am so crazy that when Muslims are violently murdering one another over petty differences... here it comes!... I am so crazy that I actually blame them for their murderous acts!

AH! Send me to the nut house!  Yeah sure

Of course I blame them. The real question, MAF, why do you continually write the Muslim community blank checks to continue their horrific goals in Iraq? Why do you continually turn a blind eye to the Muslims who are spilling blood by the hundreds every day?

It's a funny thing MAF... because you love to blame America for everything fucked up in Iraq. But last time I checked, it was me... a murderous, heartless American soldier... who landed his Black Hawk between a group of gunmen and pinned-down Iraqis, so that we could safely evacuate them. It's funny that EVIL AMERICANS are continually putting themselves at risk to save lives in Iraq, while their fellow Muslims are wildly butchering and murdering.

But you never seem to have time to vigorously go after the murdering Muslims,... but there is always time in the day to take cheap shots at US Soldiers. Isn't that right MAF?  Yeah sure

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
Yup I blame Muslims for the majority of the killing.

Add me to that list as well.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
itsjustme
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 3):
We're the cops trying to break up a drunken bar fight.

Poor analogy. For us to get involved in breaking up a drunken bar fight, someone has to call and ask us to respond to break up the fight. Nobody called the U.S. from Baghdad and said, "Come break up our fight please".
 
Confuscius
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:35 pm

"That won't happen until other countries stop meddling in Iraq's internal affairs."

Which countries, U.S. and U.K.?
Ain't I a stinker?
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:39 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 12):
Poor analogy. For us to get involved in breaking up a drunken bar fight, someone has to call and ask us to respond to break up the fight. Nobody called the U.S. from Baghdad and said, "Come break up our fight please".

Nope... it's a perfect analogy.

Maybe you'd be right if the entire country/region was united against the allied forces in Iraq... but they're not. Muslims from numerous middle eastern countries are engaged in a mammoth battle against EACH OTHER.

What we encountered was a continual decrease in the number of direct attacks against US/Allied troops and installations. Mortar attacks decreased. RPG attacks decreased. Random small arms fire in the direction of soldiers decreased. Etc...

Slowly the focus was less on killing American soldiers, and more on killing fellow Muslims.

Where we get ourselves hurt, is when we are called out to stop the fighting between the multitude of battling sects. Two sides are engaged in a gun battle, we roll up, step in between to attempt to restore order, and it's very dangerous. We lose some very fine young men and women because they were trying to put an end to needless murder and butchery between Muslims fighting Muslims.

....Just like cops going into a bar fight.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 13):
"That won't happen until other countries stop meddling in Iraq's internal affairs."

Which countries, U.S. and U.K.?

Nationals from Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Egypt, Jordan, and so on.

Not to mention the support Syria and Iran gives to the insurgency via weapons, money and shelter.

There is a HUGE difference between attempting to create a stable and safe atmosphere in Iraq... and actively engaging in an attempt to throw the country into turmoil.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
53Sqdn
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting QueenofDaSkies (Reply 9):
the REAL question is, when is it a good day in Baghdad?

This has to be the most relevant answer, ever, in all of the Iraq threads so far. QueenofDaSkies, I salute you!
 
itsjustme
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 14):
Nope... it's a perfect analogy.

Maybe you'd be right if the entire country/region was united against the allied forces in Iraq... but they're not.

I understand the entire region isn't against allied forces in Iraq. My point is, your analogy that troops doing battle in Iraq are like cops breaking up a bar fight is flawed. Cops typically do not get involved in breaking up a drunken bar fight without being requested to do so. No one called our Commander in Chief and said, "Please come to Iraq and break up our fight".
He pretty much took on that initiative all by himself.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:00 am

Nationals from Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Egypt, Jordan, and so on.

Thanks for the clarification


the REAL question is, when is it a good day in Baghdad?

Probably when only 33 people get shot to death. Everything is relative I guess...
Ain't I a stinker?
 
53Sqdn
Posts: 323
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:02 am

BTW, how many can remember when Sadam was our 'buddy'? You know, almost the best thing since sliced bread in the region. Who sold him Aircraft? Who sold him weapons? Who the feck is to blame? Yup! Has to be an outside force surely
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 17):
understand the entire region isn't against allied forces in Iraq. My point is, your analogy that troops doing battle in Iraq are like cops breaking up a bar fight is flawed. Cops typically do not get involved in breaking up a drunken bar fight without being requested to do so. No one called our Commander in Chief and said, "Please come to Iraq and break up our fight".

Exactly. The problem here is that people like to intervene into other peoples affairs without thinking twice what the outcome may be. If you got yourself into sorting out a bar fight then you need to do it right else stop blaming the drunks and don't let the door hit you on your way out. Simple really.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):

Nationals from Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Egypt, Jordan, and so on.

And I always though Saudi Arabia, Oman, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen to be allies with the US.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
AGM100
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting 53Sqdn (Reply 19):
BTW, how many can remember when Sadam was our 'buddy'? You know, almost the best thing since sliced bread in the region. Who sold him Aircraft? Who sold him weapons? Who the feck is to blame? Yup! Has to be an outside force surely

Saddam left the farm guy .. he had a chance to be a great leader of Iraq. He could have been far better off cultivating a up front alliance with the US. But he chose to become the corrupt ,power hungry tyrant that it led to his down fall.

And besides the Fench and Russians were his largest Arms supplier...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
flyingbabydoc
Posts: 1059
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
inevitably leads to "help" from neighbours, for instance in the Spanish Civil War

I did not quite get your analogy. If you meant neighbours such Iran or Syria, than maybe appropriate, yet interesting on how you vehemently defended such countries when the subject was Israel. Perhaps then your associating these neighbours with Nazi Germany implicates some deeper (personal) issues (and wishes) with the ongoing conflict with the Jewish people. Otherwise, you were associating these "neighbours" with the US, which would make such comparison preposterous and infamous. Should this be the case (i.e. the US acting similarly to the Condor Legion in Spain), they would simply annihilate as many cities and population as to subjugate the country completely and install a phony dictator to keep-safe the recent-gained authority, not remove one dictator and attempt to restore peace in a shattered country. Actually, a bombing like Guernica would make life much easier and bring the war faster to an end, although morally inconceivable and a FAR cry from what is being done (see all posts by UH60FtRucker for that matter, if you are able to unbiasedly read). To call US troops anything similar to the Condor Legion is not only insulting, but rather historically inaccurate.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
there is always time in the day to take cheap shots at US Soldiers

See above. As I said, the reasons may be debatable (for the US presence in Iraq), but to compare them with Nazi mercenaries is simply wrong. Not that who posted it cares in the least bit, but it still remains wrong.

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 17):
Cops typically do not get involved in breaking up a drunken bar fight without being requested to do so.

Really?

Law enforcement will only stop disorder/violence when someone calls them to do so?

The rest of the time they just sit there and wait for the call?

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 17):
I understand the entire region isn't against allied forces in Iraq. My point is, your analogy that troops doing battle in Iraq are like cops breaking up a bar fight is flawed. Cops typically do not get involved in breaking up a drunken bar fight without being requested to do so. No one called our Commander in Chief and said, "Please come to Iraq and break up our fight".

You're talking about the reasons why we went to Iraq in the first place. And I would completely agree my analogy doesn't make any sense for those reasons. But I am talking about why we're still in Iraq, and what our primary mission is.

And lately, our primary mission is to try and maintain some semblance of peace between multiple groups of Muslims who are violently slaughtering one another. And yes, Iraqis are asking the US to help them in this respect.

The way it works was typically a local leader would contact US forces and inform us of local fighting. They might give us a vague description, or they might give us exact details. We would go to the area, at their request, and attempt to restore order.

Or if there was an active engagement in process, we would get a request by Iraqi officials or the ISF to intervene... the closest American assets would move in to break up the scuffle. When you looked at Iraq, and you looked at the areas we had overwhelming numbers - where we met Army doctrine of 1 soldier per 20 citizens - there was relative peace and quiet. We essentially "owned" that piece of real estate, and denied the insurgents the ability to operate and survive.

However, when you looked at areas of Iraq where our numbers were weak, is where you typically found the highest level of violence and disorder. So we move into that region to crush the insurgency... but by doing so we have to pull troops away from other areas, thus leaving those places now vulnerable for insurgents to move in.

The only way we can insure success is by meeting the doctrine of 1:20. And to do so, we need A LOT more troops. Just like General Anthony Zinni predicted in the late 1990s - the US would require roughly 400,000 troops to control Iraq. And with only 140,000 of us in Iraq, we're proving just how right he is.

Quoting Emirates773er (Reply 20):
Exactly. The problem here is that people like to intervene into other peoples affairs without thinking twice what the outcome may be. If you got yourself into sorting out a bar fight then you need to do it right else stop blaming the drunks and don't let the door hit you on your way out. Simple really.

So don't get involved?

Even if both sides are wildly murdering one another? Even when the lack of respect for human life is disgustingly absent?

Don't get involved? That's pretty cold hearted.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 21):
And I always though Saudi Arabia, Oman, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen to be allies with the US.

The governments, perhaps.

But I can testify that we regularly encountered foreign nationals from those nations, fighting on the behalf of the insurgency.

-UH60

[Edited 2007-04-19 17:35:04]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
QueenofDaSkies
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:25 am

RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 24):

So don't get involved?

Even if both sides are wildly murdering one another? Even when the lack of respect for human life is disgustingly absent?

Don't get involved? That's pretty cold hearted.

So you think the US should get involved in EVERY conflict and/or even where there is a lack of respect for human life? Since when is the US suppose to become the "Superman" of the world? Following your "logic", we'd be at war with many countries around the world. N Korea, China, Israel, Cuba, Africa and so on and so forth.

Let's face it sunshine, you are bias cuz you take part in the conflict.
It's time to FLY!
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 23):
implicates some deeper (personal) issues (and wishes) with the ongoing conflict with the Jewish people. Otherwise, you were associating these "neighbours" with the US, which would make such comparison preposterous

Unfortunately, ME AVN FAN has showed us a very ugly side of himself in the past, and tipped his cards regarding his true feelings towards Jews. He posted some very anti-semetic and hateful filth that he tried to pass off as "jokes."

In fact, MAF, you still haven't completely apologized for that. Maybe we can get it now?

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
flyingbabydoc
Posts: 1059
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 24):
Don't get involved? That's pretty cold hearted.

Same reason why it does not seem to be a problem to watch these massive killings and do nothing about it, or rather blame all in the US to begin with. Killings with Saddam, killings with the insurgents. Who cares?

That is the reason so many atrocities have been committed in the past, and it only shows that we haven't (as a species) learned our lesson.

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:40 am

The average American dimwit is probably more interested in what the Olson twins are eating (or not), than how many tens of thousands Iraqis have needlessly died since GWB began his stupid war.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
flyingbabydoc
Posts: 1059
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:12 pm

RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting QueenofDaSkies (Reply 25):
So you think the US should get involved in EVERY conflict and/or even where there is a lack of respect for human life?

No, not the US only, but certainly all of us who witness such conflicts should voice our disgust and do everything possible to prevent any further development. If the US has the structure to act more decisively and effectively, than the US. If not any other country or organization.

There have been a small group of citizens of a small country (Denmark) who have decided to risk all and smuggled thousands of Jews into Sweden and safety. From another small country (Holland), many Jews were kept alive while hidden by similarly brave dutch people. These people have mounted a resistance to a system that was brutally disrespecting of human life. We all should follow the example, in anyway we can.

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
why do you continually write the Muslim community blank checks to continue their horrific goals in Iraq?

I do NOT write blank checks to anybody. The problem is NOT "the Muslim community" but murderous groups of extremists in Iraq. They happen to be Muslims, but they are members of various political movements and in many cases most presumably of various criminal organisations

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
turn a blind eye to the Muslims who are spilling blood by the hundreds every day?

What I see is NOT so much "the Muslims" but Iraqis and other Arabs plus possibly also Iranians committing crimes against humanity

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
there is always time in the day to take cheap shots at US Soldiers. Isn't that right MAF?


I do NOT take cheap shots at US soldiers and never did. I take serious shots at your Supreme Commander-in-Chief and his crew. To me, soldiers up to the rank of colonels (maybe even higher up) are victims of what happened and happens
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting QueenofDaSkies (Reply 25):
So you think the US should get involved in EVERY conflict and/or even where there is a lack of respect for human life?

I don't think I suggested we get involved militarily with every conflict. But I did question whether it was wise to simply ignore them... because, "It's none of our business." That level of callousness towards human life is disturbing. And so is that level of defeatism... a concept that is very foreign to me.

And when it comes to Iraq... I walk a fine line about expressing my opinions of whether we should have invaded, or not.

But I can say full heartily, that whether right or wrong, our presence in Iraq has allowed deeply suppressed hatred within the Muslim world, to bubble up and explode. The level of violence in Iraq is numbing. And too often I saw the bodies of dead Iraqis... bodies killed not by the hands of Americans... but by the hands of their fellow countrymen and religious brethren.

Quoting QueenofDaSkies (Reply 25):
Let's face it sunshine, you are bias cuz you take part in the conflict.

And like I said... I simply can't forget what I saw, nor wipe my hands and walk away from it. So yeah... maybe I am bias, and I wish I could share you aloof detachment from their suffering. But it's too late.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
flyingbabydoc
Posts: 1059
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:12 pm

RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31):
That level of callousness towards human life is disturbing. And so is that level of defeatism... a concept that is very foreign to me.

And I would hope more people would think like you. Particularly in what concerns the callousness towards human life. When you have to fight to save one, you know how valuable it is.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 26):
and tipped his cards regarding his true feelings towards Jews

Not surprising, since these feelings are (still) way more widespread than generally acknowledged.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):
What I see is NOT so much "the Muslims" but Iraqis and other Arabs plus possibly also Iranians committing crimes against humanity

And since you agree that these are crimes against humanity, shouldn't you be thankful that there is someone doing something to prevent them from happening (i.e. the American soldiers?)

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
53Sqdn
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:23 pm

RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 22):
Saddam left the farm guy .. he had a chance to be a great leader of Iraq. He could have been far better off cultivating a up front alliance with the US. But he chose to become the corrupt ,power hungry tyrant that it led to his down fall.

And besides the Fench and Russians were his largest Arms supplier...

'Saddam left the farm guy' ???? What's that supposed to mean AG100? Then your next sentence sums it up nicely...

He could have been far better off cultivating a up front alliance with the US.

Say effing what! Why the US? Are you totally barmy? Why is it, that any Country would be 'better off' forming an alliance with the US? What is so 'special' about joining an alliance with the US? Join the Barmy Army and see the world? OK! I'll sign up tomorrow.

Just think about it, when you invaded this particular Country, there seemed to be a song running around in the head of 'YOUR' leader.

Oil be with you in apple-blossom time. GWB/TB. What a pair of smucks!
 
QueenofDaSkies
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:25 am

RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31):
I don't think I suggested we get involved militarily with every conflict. But I did question whether it was wise to simply ignore them... because, "It's none of our business." That level of callousness towards human life is disturbing. And so is that level of defeatism... a concept that is very foreign to me.

really? Well let me requote what you said.........

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 24):

So don't get involved?

Even if both sides are wildly murdering one another? Even when the lack of respect for human life is disgustingly absent?

Don't get involved? That's pretty cold hearted.

that to me looks like you are suggesting we get involved.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31):
But I can say full heartily, that whether right or wrong, our presence in Iraq has allowed deeply suppressed hatred within the Muslim world, to bubble up and explode. The level of violence in Iraq is numbing. And too often I saw the bodies of dead Iraqis... bodies killed not by the hands of Americans... but by the hands of their fellow countrymen and religious brethren.

so tell me this, do you honestly believe the situation there is ANY better now? I mean, we hear that we are making progress from the gov yet look at what just happened IN ONE DAY.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 31):
And like I said... I simply can't forget what I saw, nor wipe my hands and walk away from it. So yeah... maybe I am bias, and I wish I could share you aloof detachment from their suffering. But it's too late.

my detachment from their suffering? Oh I feel their pain. A bully country invading and causing great tragedy and war....yea, I feel their pain.
It's time to FLY!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 13):
That won't happen until other countries stop meddling in Iraq's internal affairs."

Which countries, U.S. and U.K.?

USA, UK, Saudi Arabia, Iran.
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Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 15):
"That won't happen until other countries stop meddling in Iraq's internal affairs."

Which countries, U.S. and U.K.?

Nationals from Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Egypt, Jordan, and so on.

While it is undeniable that also Yemenis, Omanis, Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians were and are among the culprits, Yemen, Oman, Jordan and Egypt to NOT meddle in Iraqi affairs as countries. Whomever of their citizens goes to Iraq to create mischief does NOT do so on behalf of his country . It is completely different in case of Saudi Arabia and Iran. And Syria IS involved as the ruling political party in Syria is the Syria-Wing of the Socialist Party of the Arab Reawakening, while the most important secularist party in Iraq, at present underground, is the Iraq-Wing of this party.
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Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 21):
Oman, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen to be allies with the US

None of these countries supports violent actions committed by nationals of these countries. Whomever of those nations goes to Iraq to commit mischief does NOT have the support of the government. Or the other way round, all the Egyptian and Jordanian businessmen working in Iraq have the support of their governments and their countries, and have to fear outlawed desperados from their own home-countries
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Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 23):
meant neighbours such Iran or Syria,

I primarily meant Saudi Arabia, which is far more important as it supports radical fundamentalist (Sunnite) movements in Iraq, and it can be assumed that it finances a good deal of what goes on -- here of course the analogy clearly ends, as none of the neighbours in this case will openly intervene.
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Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 26):
you still haven't completely apologized for that. Maybe we can get it now?

I actually DID apologize for the misguided bad "jokes" quite clearly, but you right then had more important tasks to do and therefore apparently did not notice. Yes, I confirm my apology for an act of bad taste and misguided "joking".
-
 
andessmf
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting QueenofDaSkies (Reply 25):

So you think the US should get involved in EVERY conflict and/or even where there is a lack of respect for human life?

Interesting to note that some here opposed to Iraq are quick to call for the US to get involved in Darfur and Zimbabwe. Whoever here has called for US involvement in one conflict or another cannot come now and pick and choose which ones they will support.

But back to the point. The US, and by extension the Europeans as well, don't need to get involved in ALL conflicts. But there has to be a way for the powers that be to stand together to let EVERY country realize that there COULD be consequences for any type of serious human right violation.
 
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 35):
I primarily meant Saudi Arabia, which is far more important as it supports radical fundamentalist (Sunnite) movements in Iraq, and it can be assumed that it finances a good deal of what goes on -- here of course the analogy clearly ends, as none of the neighbours in this case will openly intervene.

Still, if this is becoming (who am I kidding - it is already) a civil war similar to the Spanish one, the resolution of the conflict will only come when both "supporting" parts will openly face each other in the field - an all-out Sunni vs. Shia war, being it Saudi Arabia vs Iran or any other similar scenario. Assuming this is where your line of thought is taking you, it is even more important that US troops keep acting as a buffer in the region, otherwise the consequences could be even more catastrophic.

So, all in all, you are indeed in favour of the presence of American troops in Iraq! You just didn't know it...  laughing 

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 32):
And since you agree that these are crimes against humanity, shouldn't you be thankful that there is someone doing something to prevent them from happening (i.e. the American soldiers?)

Good point. Like I pointed out to MAF earlier in the thread, often the same men and women who are selflessly stepping between Muslims killing Muslims in Iraq... are the ones who are getting blamed for the outrageous amount of blood spilling.

And until people like MAF put the pressure on the TRUE enemy in Iraq, I don't know how we'll be able to make headway.

Quoting QueenofDaSkies (Reply 34):
really? Well let me requote what you said.........



Quoting QueenofDaSkies (Reply 34):
that to me looks like you are suggesting we get involved.

What you quoted was me clarifying that I don't believe we should become involved in every conflict, MILITARILY, but involved nonetheless.

You need to be able broaden your mind to think of involvement beyond the use of military force. There are a number of powerful tools we have at our disposal to intervene and stop sites of unbridled carnage.

Had you slowed down to read what I wrote - you would have understood that. You also would have understood that I believe our presence in Iraq - whether right or wrong - has forced our hand. We're involved and we have a responsibility to attempt to end the massive suffering.

And I didn't say it could be done - without world pressuring the Muslim community to learn respect for their fellow man, I just don't know how we can teach them that they can't solve their problems by blowing up marketplaces, hospitals, schools, government buildings, etc... But we need try nonetheless.

Quoting QueenofDaSkies (Reply 34):
so tell me this, do you honestly believe the situation there is ANY better now? I mean, we hear that we are making progress from the gov yet look at what just happened IN ONE DAY.

That's a huge question, best left for a completely different thread.

But you're new, so I highly suggest going back through the archives and reading some of my "Updates From Iraq" threads. I often talked about achievements and set backs. The threads are free of any bullsh*t, no flowery stories of soldiers giving up their extra pay to buy Iraqi children toys. Honest, and frank assessments of what was happening.

Quoting QueenofDaSkies (Reply 34):
my detachment from their suffering? Oh I feel their pain. A bully country invading and causing great tragedy and war....yea, I feel their pain.

Again, I feel like I am repeating myself, but at some point the war stopped being about killing Americans, and became a war of killing each other. So I find it difficult to blame American soldiers for the vast blood letting occurring... because the blood is being spilt by the hands of fellow Muslims.

And yes, I feel we have a duty to stop them from acting like barbarians and wildly murdering one another.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 35):
While it is undeniable that also Yemenis, Omanis, Jordanians, Egyptians and Syrians were and are among the culprits, Yemen, Oman, Jordan and Egypt to NOT meddle in Iraqi affairs as countries.

Just like I explained to Queen, you need to read the entire post before you formulate your response.

I didn't suggest the governments of those nations were interfering with Iraq. I specifically stated that it was NATIONALS from those nations who were meddling in the affairs of Iraq. Big difference. You gotta read the post, MAF!

-UH60

[Edited 2007-04-19 18:28:01]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Arrow
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting 53Sqdn (Reply 19):
BTW, how many can remember when Sadam was our 'buddy'? You know, almost the best thing since sliced bread in the region. Who sold him Aircraft? Who sold him weapons? Who the feck is to blame? Yup! Has to be an outside force surely

Yup. While we dump on all those other Middle East countries -- Iraq's neighbours -- for clandestine meddling in Iraq's internal affairs, we forget that we created the problem to begin with. The history of Western involvement in Iraq (and elsewhere) over the last 100 years is mind-boggling, culminating with a phenomenal level of military aid and support for Saddam Hussein by the very folks who decided in 2003 that he was humanity's greatest threat. Good thing he got executed before all that dirty laundry could get aired in another trial, eh? Think Rumsfeld would have responded to a subpoena from Baghdad? Oops, I forgot, they made sure that couldn't happen, didn't they.

But back to the topic -- there are several reasons Baghdad's terrible day isn't big news right now.

1. Baghdad is mostly Iraqis killing Iraqis -- low priority on the CNN/Fox news meter.
2. It happens every day, gets boring.
3. Virgina Tech is a big distraction -- the closer to home, the bigger the story and the easier the blanket-style coverage.
4. The VT victims are not only mostly young innocents, but they are Americans.
5. It doesn't happen every day -- shock value still very high.

It's hard to know what in Iraq would vault the story back to prominence on P.1, short of a successful attack on the coalition troops and multiple casualties there. A "business as usual" death toll of less than 100 a day in Iraq (assuming it continues to be mostly Iraqis) will continue to decline on the western "big news" gauge and can probably go on indefinitely without any change in course.

Pretty repugnant, eh?
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
777236ER
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 5):
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Muslims, Muslims, Muslims .............. and what has the whole mess to do with Islam and "Muslims" ? True, people in the area happen to be Muslims ..................................
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Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):
The problem is NOT "the Muslim community" but murderous groups of extremists in Iraq. They happen to be Muslims,

Nope, wrong, sorry. The vast majority of the violence in Iraq is sectarian.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
tbar220
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 39):
Pretty repugnant, eh?

Very. There are 230 dead Iraqis in one day's of extremely bad violence (bombings, shooting, etc.) If this were to happen in any other country - and I dare say, white country - then it would be a huge deal. And yet the sad state of affairs in Iraq and Baghdad is that this type of event is considered "normal", despite the fact that it was the second deadliest attack since the invasion four years ago.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 39):
Yup. While we dump on all those other Middle East countries -- Iraq's neighbours -- for clandestine meddling in Iraq's internal affairs, we forget that we created the problem to begin with. The history of Western involvement in Iraq (and elsewhere) over the last 100 years is mind-boggling, culminating with a phenomenal level of military aid and support for Saddam Hussein by the very folks who decided in 2003 that he was humanity's greatest threat.

This kind of thinking boggles the mind.

"If we hadn't gotten involved in the ME hundreds of years ago."

"If we hadn't left Saddam in charge after 1991."

"If President Bush hadn't invaded Iraq."

"If mankind had not emerged from the primordial cesspool that is our genetic makeup, none of this would have happened!!"

blah blah blah.

It's all a bunch of excuses to me. Because no matter how you slice it, there are still thousands of individuals who are making the conscious decision to shoot, bomb, maim and kill their fellow man. That's personal choice, one which cannot be explained away by a hundred years of human interaction. Nor should it be excused for those reasons, either.

Those who are to blame, are the ones setting off the bombs and pulling the triggers. All of that other stuff is interesting human history that helps explain how we got here, but it is not an excuse for why it is happening.

-UH60

[Edited 2007-04-19 18:47:46]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
andessmf
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:46 am

Before a lot of you continue in the same line of Rumsfeld and Saddam picture, you better read up on the actual history of military support for Iraq, because the US involvement there was but a small part of the support Saddam received for many years. Let's remember how many Arab countries support Iraq against Iran. Let's remember that the nuclear reactor (Osirak) was a French design, and so forth.
 
AGM100
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 32):
And since you agree that these are crimes against humanity, shouldn't you be thankful that there is someone doing something to prevent them from happening (i.e. the American soldiers?)

 checkmark 

To logical babydoc ..


I like to simplify things a bit ... Simple question

The US plan for invasion was to overthrow Saddam eliminate his weapons and offer the chance for Democracy to the Iraqi people. The plan was not to enslave and kill the population of Iraq.
The insurgency offers no hope for the future other than more division and death and quite possibly a Islamic death cult "government".

Choose sides..
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Dougloid
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:05 am

[quote=UH60FtRucker,reply=3]I just don't know how it can be done, until we find some way to teach Muslims to have respect for the lives of other Muslims. There is so much killing in the name of Allah occurring in Iraq, one wonders if Allah has a direct hot-line to these murders? They certainly seem to be getting "messages" by the hour from him.

Iraqis killing Iraqis. Syrians killing Iraqis. Iranians killing Iraqis. Saudis killing Iraqis. Yemeni killing Iraqis. And the moment US soldier step between their barbaric killing sprees... they instantly become the focus of each and every one of them.

We're the cops trying to break up a drunken bar fight.

It's much worse than a drunken bar fight-although there are similarities. In my experience, the parties to any drunken brawl usually end up making common cause against the cops.

Sixty, I appreciate your commentary as one who's been on the ground and seen it up close and personal. This entire issue operates on two separate and distinct levels.

It's quite plain to me that Saddam Hussein was doing a pretty good job of keeping the lid on the ethnic/religious pressure cooker-kinda like Josip Tito in what used to be Yugoslavia.

Uncle Sugar ripped the lid off the pressure cooker under the mistaken apprehension that there were WMDs inside.

Now, Uncle Sugar is having to deal with the fallout of that improvident policy. And the takehome is old scores being settled and an ultimately futile attempt by the Sunni to bomb the Shi'a into silence.

Uncle is like the guy who has the wolf by the ears. You can blame him for getting involved in the first place but not for what people are doing to each other in Iraq every day.

And even if you blame him for that, all you can do is blame. You can't go back to the status quo ante. And the status quo ante, be it remembered, was a brutal tyranny built on the secret police, the torture chamber, ethnic cleansing and genocide on a massive scale.

I believe only a fool would wish for the return of the bad old days. And they're gone forever.

However....it looks like there'll be a functionally independent Kurdistan.

They've had their asses kicked by everyone in the region-Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey. It's time they had their homeland.

Somewhere in the future the Sunni and Shia will tire of killing each other.

That day can't come soon enough. And we owe a lot more to the people who've helped us than we're willing to pay right now which is offensive and depressing-207 visas is not even a picture of a drop in a big bucket. We owe these folks.

What's most appalling to me is what ordinary Iraqis must be going through every day. I don't know how they manage it.

I have a friend who is a sheriff's deputy and he gets sent to break up bar fights on a regular basis. He got sent to a bar across the county line one night, but they can do this here. The fight was over when he got there but there was a guy at the bar, smoking a cigarette and swigging a beer. His other hand was holding his guts in where his belly had been cut open. When the paramedics arrived the guy got all pissed off: :"Hey, go fuck yourself-I haven't finished my beer yet."
That makes me think the analogy about the bar fight is an apt one.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 24):
So don't get involved?

Even if both sides are wildly murdering one another? Even when the lack of respect for human life is disgustingly absent?

Don't get involved? That's pretty cold hearted.

Not at all. Being cold hearted and closing your eyes to this massacre would be disgusting to say the least but the question is how should it be stopped? Using your analogy it seems that you want the drunks to start acting like gentlemen rather than handcuffing them and throwing them in jail. The US went into Iraq chanting words of freedom and to deliver but that sadly has not happened. We all know that Iraqis are a bunch of holligans on the loose with a thirst for blood, what remains to be seen is how the US controls them. And blaming them for all of it certainly does not solve any problems, but just makes them worse
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
cairo
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):
The problem is NOT "the Muslim community" but murderous groups of extremists in Iraq.

It's quite disingenuous to ignore the religious aspect of all this, specifically that Sadr, the Iranian Ayatollahs, Muslim clerics in the KSA and Egypt, et al., are all apparently ordering or at least advocating murders, violence and mayhem.

Sure, that doesn't mean the Iraq problem is an indictment of the entire Muslim faith, but, nevertheless, part of the failure in Iraq is partially a failure in the Islamic "leadership", such as it is.

There are numerous other things that share part of the blame for the situation in Iraq, including especially the American "plan" for post-invasion peace, but the role of Islam can not be denied.

Cairo
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 32):
And since you agree that these are crimes against humanity, shouldn't you be thankful that there is someone doing something to prevent them from happening (i.e. the American soldiers?)

I honour the endeavours of the American soldiers in this respect, but regard the American presence as one of the major reasons for the mess.
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Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 37):
Still, if this is becoming (who am I kidding - it is already) a civil war similar to the Spanish one, the resolution of the conflict will only come when both "supporting" parts will openly face each other in the field - an all-out Sunni vs. Shia war, being it Saudi Arabia vs Iran or any other similar scenario.

Here of course is another difference to the Spanish Civil War, where the sides were clear. A lot is talked about Sunni<>Shi'ite, while a good deal of the conflict is Sunni<>Sunni Shi'ite<>Shi'ite, which means secularist movements like the Ba'ath Party and the Communist Party against the fundamentalists, with almost any underground groups having, like in Basqueland and Northern Ireland, its "legal wing" inside the legal official structures. Look at Iran and Saudi Arabia. Both have a problem, and that is that the Saudi oil-province, the el-Hasa, is inhabited by Shi'ites, while one of the major Iranian oil-areas, near Abadan, is inhabited by Arabs. So that they both are in a war by proxies, but will keep far away from any open confrontation.
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Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 38):
I specifically stated that it was NATIONALS from those nations who were meddling in the affairs of Iraq. Big difference.

True, but the question was "what nations", so that "nationals of " sounded as if ........... and this was proven by a reaction further down "they were allies of the USA" .
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Quoting 777236ER (Reply 40):
The vast majority of the violence in Iraq is sectarian.

a majority or a minority is not the point, the point is that it is NOT a "Muslim thing". And much of what you call sectarian is just terror by extreme groups who want to A) intimidate the people into their fundamentalist ways and B) want the US-Americans out --- strange is that quite different groups are united in that wish
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Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 43):
the support Saddam received for many years.

THIS now in hindsight is criticized as mistakes. BUT in those times everybody thought it to be right thing to see support for the lesser evil. To criticize the various gents in charge in the USA, in France, and in the USSR does not make much sense therefore. The Arab League supported Iraq for the simple reason that Iraq defended the Eastern border of the Arab World.
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Quoting Dougloid (Reply 46):
However....it looks like there'll be a functionally independent Kurdistan.

They've had their asses kicked by everyone in the region-Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey. It's time they had their homeland.

The Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Turkey has threatened to invade Iraqi Kurdistan due to their support to the Kurds in Turkey.  Sad  worried 

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 46):
What's most appalling to me is what ordinary Iraqis must be going through every day. I don't know how they manage it.

That is the reason why more than 900'000 Iraqis have fled to Syria, more than 700'000 to Jordan, some 50'000 to Egypt, some 10'000 to Lebanon, and thousands to Europe. A private radio-station in Zurich now has one hour per week "for the Iraqi in Switzerland" . In both Damascus and Amman now are Iraqi quarters with Iraqi restaurants, bars, nightclubs, cinemas, shops etc .
 
777236ER
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RE: Terrible Day In Baghdad

Fri Apr 20, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 49):
a majority or a minority is not the point, the point is that it is NOT a "Muslim thing". And much of what you call sectarian is just terror by extreme groups who want to A) intimidate the people into their fundamentalist ways and B) want the US-Americans out --- strange is that quite different groups are united in that wish

Now you're just contradicting yourself. The violence is sectarian, therefore it is a 'Muslim thing', just like The Troubles in Northern Ireland were a 'Christian thing'.
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