AeroWesty
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US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:13 pm

Quoting http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0417/p01s03-woeu.htm:

For the past two months, the Busekros family has been fighting a court battle to regain custody of their 15-year-old daughter, Melissa. German police took her from her home here, and placed her in a psychiatric ward. The reason: She was being home-schooled, which violates Germany's compulsory education law.

Melissa's plight has struck a chord with US evangelicals, who often see home-schooling as a way to instill Christian values. American evangelical groups have rushed to the family's aid, providing legal counsel and lobbying the German parliament.

Many American Christians have reached out to the Busekros family, who now have two wicker baskets stuffed with hundreds of letters from supporters. "It reminds us that we are not alone, that there are people standing behind us and giving us the strength to fight," says Melissa's mother, Gudrun.

The Busekros case is emblematic of the growing effort by US Christian legal organizations to take the "culture wars" overseas. Pushing back against a perceived assault on their values by an increasingly secular society, the groups are striving to influence European law on issues ranging from home schooling to stem-cell research to gay marriage.

Interesting reasoning behind this--US courts citing foreign precedents and international standards in key cases such as the case that legalized sodomy in Texas:

"We realized that if we didn't try to mold precedents abroad, they could come back to hurt us, and that the American legal system as we know might change," says Benjamin Bull, chief counsel for the ADF.

Hang on tight, Europe. Be brave!
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Braybuddy
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:23 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
Hang on tight, Europe. Be brave!

Whatever about providing legal aid, I don't think they'll persuade the general public. Evangelicals are at best looked on as harmless crackpots, and at worst raving lunatics, so I don't think they'll have much influence on public opinion.

Hopefully.
 
agill
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:23 pm

Evangelical American organisations will probably be very successful over here... It's like the french communist party going to the states to abolish guns, or something like that.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):
I don't think they'll have much influence on public opinion.

Hopefully that will be true. The depth that these groups are going is quite astonishing though, including attempting to block funding for stem-cell research at the EU level.
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greasespot
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:45 pm

Heck they have been sticking their noses into Canada for a while...Mainly by funding all those warm and fuzzy hate grups like Focus on the Family Canada and Institute of marriage and family.....


Thankfully we have the Charter of rights and freedoms that keeps their power in check.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
cba
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:47 pm

Hey, you guys can have them... we're sick of them here!
 
aloges
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting Cba (Reply 5):
Hey, you guys can have them... we're sick of them here!

I'd rather see them relocating to Iraq to share their "Christian values" with the local populace... I still want to know why Fred Phelps' WBC didn't picket at Saddam's funeral.

typo edited

[Edited 2007-04-21 15:53:26]
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baroque
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:06 pm

They have been all over the place like a rash on the subject of evolution. Alas, surveys show that they are NOT unsuccessful. There was a legal case in Aus where Professor Ian Plimer took some fundies to court using the trade descriptions act in relation to them claiming that some outcrops on the flanks of Mt Ararat were the remains of the ark (yes that ark!). He lost, after the judge sort of agreed that he was right, just he thought the trade descriptions act did not cover the case - inaccurately precised. If anyone is interested, a search under Ian Plimer will find the case.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:25 pm

The reason why we have the compulsory school attendance laws is that the children need to have a certain knowledge of things when they have grown up and live in modern society. In the old days, when the laws were intruduced first, it was usually that poorer parents wanted to let their children work for money instead of going to school.
Today, as e.g. with the Russian immigrant Babtists or Muslim fundamentalists or the supporters of those evangelical fundamentalist churches it is because the parents DON'T want their children to learn about certain things, let it be evolution in biology class, sexual education or about other religions.
The parents are free to teach their children as much as they want about the Bible, the Q'ran etc., but I remember that there was a verdict from the supreme court, which rules that the children's right to get a comprehensive education is higher than the right of the parents to limit the education of the children to certain religious subjects.

Jan
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ltbewr
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:40 pm

I think the religious right is making a good point in that parents, with some guidence and regulation by the government, should be able to home school their children. For some, it may be for religious reasons,as they see the public/government schools as too secular. For others, they feel that school may not teach in they way they want their children to believe in certain subjects - and of course that is the root issue. That Germany won't allow home schooling probably is probably a cultural concept there that education is a government responsibility or at least to supervise or control to some extent with the child going to a religious or private school. Perhaps one fear is that home schooled children will be taught Nazi era history counterdictory to the government standard - that is encouaging pro-Nazi beliefs, especially Holacoast denial.
Germany has significant counterdictions in thier relations of religion and state. In some states of Germany, (particulary Bavaria) they require government/public school classrooms to have Christian Crufixes and has taken a hard line as to Scientology doing business there. Yet, only a tiny percentage of citizens - except for Muslims - regularly attend religious services and in much smaller percentages than the USA.
As to Europe in general, all but a few have much more restricive laws as to abortion than the USA. Most still observe Sunday as a day of rest, with few businesses open. A few countries, like Italy and Irelend still have close ties to the Roman Catholic church and Greece with the Orthodox Christian faith. The Crown head of the UK is still the head of the Church of England. Other countries, like France since the late 1800's have deemed a very strict faith/state line, including banning of religious head or body coverings in public/government schools, and issue that has ticked off the Muslim community there.
As to other laws that USA evangelicals may try to change in Europe they may find little else to do and will fizzle out quickly.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 6):
I still want to know why Fred Phelps' WBC didn't picket at Saddam's funeral.

..dude, that's some funny sh!t right there, LOL!
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
andaman
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:35 am

The American Westboro Baptist Church has become famous here in the Nordic countries, lately they have been sending hate mail to the Swedish Royal Family: they think The Princess, and the rest of the nation, is living in sinful life or something... And back in year 2000 when they learnt that the new Finnish lady president has been in gay politics, the target was Finland.
The sad thing is that for some people these kind of mad noisy groups represent whole America...
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MD11Engineer
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:43 am

One thing I can predict is that the American evangelicals will face a tough fight. Most Europeans are either firmly settled into mainstream religions (like Judaism, Roman-Catholicism, the Anglican church, Lutheranism, Calvinism or the Greek and Serb Othodox church) or they do not care much about religion anyway. The only ones I can imagine wjho would go for fundamentalist religions are certain immigrants from Muslim countries and they definitely would not convert to evangelical Christianity.

Jan
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Charles79
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
think the religious right is making a good point in that parents, with some guidance and regulation by the government, should be able to home school their children. For some, it may be for religious reasons,as they see the public/government schools as too secular. For others, they feel that school may not teach in they way they want their children to believe in certain subjects - and of course that is the root issue.

I have real issues with home-schooling, and I haven't met that many kids that were home-schooled that grew up to be as productive as their schooled peers. My biggest concern has to do with the social interaction that kids only get at school. I grew up in a fairly conservative Christian household and attended a regular secular school. I still kept my Christian values, and being exposed to other ideas etc only made me a more complete person.

Parents who try to shelter their kids from the reality of the world do them a disservice as those kids won't be equipped to handle the real world and interact in society. I sincerely hope that the other posters here are right and that the European governments don't pay attention to these religion groups.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
Most still observe Sunday as a day of rest, with few businesses open. A few countries, like Italy and Irelend still have close ties to the Roman Catholic church

Not any more, here anyway. Shopping has replaced Mass as the family Sunday acitvity, and it's mostly the tens of thousans of Poles who are the regular church goers.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 14):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
Most still observe Sunday as a day of rest, with few businesses open. A few countries, like Italy and Irelend still have close ties to the Roman Catholic church

Not any more, here anyway. Shopping has replaced Mass as the family Sunday acitvity, and it's mostly the tens of thousans of Poles who are the regular church goers.

Don't forget those thousands of Philippinos.
Many Irish lost their faith in the Catholic church in the 1990's when several scandals (sexual abuse, industrial schools run by sadist monks and nuns, illegitime children taken away from their mothers to grow up in very badly run orphanages run by nuns and monks, with the mothers being imprisoned in those industrial "schools" doing forced labour etc.) came to light.

Jan
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andaman
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 14):

Not any more, here anyway. Shopping has replaced Mass as the family Sunday activity

Thats sounds like Lutherans  Smile
Catholicism is not well know in Finland, it is one the lest catholic countries in Europe, just learnt there are three times more Muslims than Catholics.
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jaysit
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:47 am

I doubt if Herr Pope will just lollygag in his silky satin gowns and red Prada sequined pumps and let a bunch of tatty, insane, fire and brimstone Southern evangelicals from Sump Pump, Texas and Port-a-pottie, Louisiana run amock in Europe.
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searpqx
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:50 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
I doubt if Herr Pope will just lollygag in his silky satin gowns and red Prada sequined pumps and let a bunch of tatty, insane, fire and brimstone Southern evangelicals from Sump Pump, Texas and Port-a-pottie, Louisiana run amock in Europe.

:D Man, if you'd just figured out how to throw gays, femenists and Euros in there, you could have offended 99% of the planet! I love it!
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
kingsford
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:23 pm

Well, if mom's a bigot and dad's an idiot, home-schooled kid will just be a bigotted idiot who will start shooting at people in universities cos it's too crowdy or couldn't get there in the first place.
 
A342
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
In some states of Germany, (particulary Bavaria) they require government/public school classrooms to have Christian Crufixes

No, not really. You'll find them in many elementary school classrooms, but not where most of secondary education takes place.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
and has taken a hard line as to Scientology doing business there.

And I'm very glad this is the case!
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Pyrex
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:38 pm

Home-schooling should be prohibited unless you live in the middle of the woods hours away from the nearest school (and even then with restrictions, e.g. what are they doing there in the first place?).

True, social interaction with other kids and being exposed to things other than the strict guidelines your parents want to impose (most of the times religiously-motivated) are very important but one very important factor that is usually neglected is the quality of teaching (not so critical in primary school but very critical in high-school).
Teaching is a very qualified and specialized job, it is not anyone that can do it. A high-school physics teacher (for instance) cannot teach literature (at least here in Portugal), as their backgrounds are very different. What qualifies ma and pa redneck to teach all the disciplines in high-school? Do they for a chance share 5-6 different college majors between them?
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kaitak
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:41 pm

I think they would be bounced out on their backsides; remember that a lot of Europeans would see the far right religious groups as being - rightly or wrongly - in league with the Republicans and pro-Bush and that would not endear them to anyone in Europe right now. Indeed, I would go as far as to say that their support for a particular issue would be as effective anything in persuading Europeans to support the opposite side!

"Tolerance" is a key word in most European countries (even where the "Daily Mail" is read!) and the reason for that may be that the US simply does not have a history of the worst consequences of intolerance that Europe has seen; that has been a driver for many of Europe's anti-hatred, racism and discrimination laws and for US groups, which - it seems - are committed to fostering division and hatred of certain groups, that kind of intolerance would not be welcome.

Hence my first comment above: there will be a slight break in the European tradition of tolerance, specially reserved for those who want to spread intolerance. And we'll all share in the "schadenfreude" ...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 21):
Home-schooling should be prohibited unless you live in the middle of the woods hours away from the nearest school (and even then with restrictions, e.g. what are they doing there in the first place?).

When I was a boy, I knew two boys who were homeschooled for two years (on elementary school level). The reason was that the father, who was a geologist, a colleague of my father, had to work for two years on a research project in very rural Bolivia. Instead of being seperated from his family for two years, he took them with him and, together with his wife, taught them with full approval of the school authorities. This was probably only possible due to four reasons:
1) the children were still at elementary school level
2) the father was a university professor
3) there was no reasonable school available where they were going.
4) it was for a limited period of time only.

Also my father took my brother and myself on field trips when we were in elementary school. Often the field trips (of a few weeks) would happen during class period, so my parents received a copy of the curriculum for these few weeks from our teachers and taught the subjects to us during the trip.

Jan
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:05 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
I doubt if Herr Pope will just lollygag in his silky satin gowns and red Prada sequined pumps and let a bunch of tatty, insane, fire and brimstone Southern evangelicals from Sump Pump, Texas and Port-a-pottie, Louisiana run amock in Europe.

...but what are you suggesting he'd do about it?
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MD11Engineer
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 24):
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
I doubt if Herr Pope will just lollygag in his silky satin gowns and red Prada sequined pumps and let a bunch of tatty, insane, fire and brimstone Southern evangelicals from Sump Pump, Texas and Port-a-pottie, Louisiana run amock in Europe.

...but what are you suggesting he'd do about it?

Wasn't the current Pope in his former position the head of what used to be known as the Holy Inquisition? Bring out the pliers, the rack and the stake (plus plenty of firewood)!  Wink

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:22 am

So basically Ratzi becomes some sorta queer-hunting van Helsing?
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halls120
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:04 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
Interesting reasoning behind this--US courts citing foreign precedents and international standards in key cases such as the case that legalized sodomy in Texas:

"We realized that if we didn't try to mold precedents abroad, they could come back to hurt us, and that the American legal system as we know might change," says Benjamin Bull, chief counsel for the ADF.

Hang on tight, Europe. Be brave!

Look on the bright side. They will most likely be ineffectual in Europe, and for every dollar they spend trying to influence EU laws, that is a dollar they aren't spending in the US.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting Agill (Reply 2):
It's like the french communist party going to the states to abolish guns, or something like that.

Except for the fact that the French Communist Party stands absolutely no chance of abolishing guns in the United States. Frankly, I can't think of a less likely group to carry out that task!

*Edit*
I probably just got your humor. Oops.

[Edited 2007-04-23 05:33:11]
 
zak
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 27):

very true, i dont see them gaining any ground for reasons mentioned before.
i do think that these bible people do not really understand the vast differences between north american and specifically u.s. understanding of "spiritual" things versus the european approach.
those who care about religion are usually settled within their own community, those who dont care will not start caring, those who oppose will have a new playing field.
europe is way more secular and there are actually many people who fight for things to stay that way (i.e. conflict of eu constitution etc)
10=2
 
N1120A
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:49 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 4):


Thankfully we have the Charter of rights and freedoms that keeps their power in check.

Hey, we have the Constitution and that doesn't stop them from having entirely too much influence in this country.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 9):
Germany has significant counterdictions in thier relations of religion and state.

Not particularly. Germany's constitution is written from a positive rights prospective as opposed to negative liberties. That means the government has to actively facilitate religious freedom.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 27):

Look on the bright side. They will most likely be ineffectual in Europe, and for every dollar they spend trying to influence EU laws, that is a dollar they aren't spending in the US.

Good point there
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
greasespot
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Hey, we have the Constitution and that doesn't stop them from having entirely too much influence in this country.

Yes but has a whole bunch of more grey areas....

Plus the collective rights in many cases trump the individual rights....In the USA everything is tied to individual rights...

But i will say that i am tired of them trying to stick their necks up here and but into places thay have no business....I wish europe good luck...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
jaysit
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:52 pm

Look, if there's one thing the loony-bin Southern Evangelicals from the US hate more than queers, feminists, secular liberals, Muslims, and anyone who thinks that creationism is a crock of @$%@#$, its Catholics and the Pope.

And the Pope knows that.

As to what he may do about it, who knows what bag of tricks Herr Pope has stuffed in the folds of his satin gowns?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
mrniji
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 4):
Heck they have been sticking their noses into Canada for a while...Mainly by funding all those warm and fuzzy hate grups like Focus on the Family Canada and Institute of marriage and family.....



Quoting Andaman (Reply 11):
The American Westboro Baptist Church has become famous here in the Nordic countries

They are also very, very aggressive in India and trying to upset the concept of religious freedom, tolera,ce, acceptance and coexistence there

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
Not particularly. Germany's constitution is written from a positive rights prospective as opposed to negative liberties. That means the government has to actively facilitate religious freedom.

True indeed. The right of one person becomes, in the German case, the obligation of the other. Art. 4 of the German Constitution protects Freedom of religion, within the regular limits. It is a fundamental right. Art. 136 or so says that there is no more a state church (and says that these provisions of the old Weimar Constitution remain valid).. still, the German state-religion relationship is not very clear. Germany is not secular. The state collects Church Tax (for those who are still in the Church). Some states still have Kruzifixes. And a very limited number of fools in the parties try to press for a more religious agenda (and use this to fight against other religions)...
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 33):
The state collects Church Tax (for those who are still in the Church).

This does not only apply to the christian churches, but is also carried out for the Central Council of Jewish Communities (and AFAFIK, as soon as the various Muslim communities in Germany agree on a common representation they will be included in this scheme as well). The reason is that many of the religious communities operate social institutions, like kindergardens, hospitals, homes of the aged etc.. The government only assists the religious communities in the collection of the money (which is deducted from the income as addition to the income tax and then transfered to the respective institution).

Education is astate responsibility, not federal (though there exist guidelines and agreements between all the states e.g. about acceptance of degrees and curricula etc.). Religious attitude varies between the states. Generally the states in the South and West (Bavaria, Baden-Wuertemberg, Rheinland-Pfalz, parts of Northrhine-Westfalia and the Saarland are more Catholic and traditional, while the states in the North and East are more protestant (Lutheran) and secular. The borderline follows roughly the extension of the old Roman empire into Germania 200 years ago.
Thus you'll find crucifixes in Bavarian schools, but not in Berlin (except for the one private Jesuit run Catholic school).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
mrniji
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
This does not only apply to the christian churches, but is also carried out for the Central Council of Jewish Communities (and AFAFIK, as soon as the various Muslim communities in Germany agree on a common representation they will be included in this scheme as well).

Interesting, I did not know that. Thanks for showing me that anet is still a place where you can learn something  Wink
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
daedaeg
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:27 am

Well according to the article, it looks as though the christian groups are having some success. IMHO they provide balance in an increasingly secular and Godless continent.
Everyday you're alive is a good day.
 
mrniji
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 36):
IMHO they provide balance in an increasingly secular and Godless continent.

Since when does secular mean godless? Secularism can also mean pluralism and does not have to be the French version automatically.

Religion is great, as long as extremists - as those cited in the article - keep out.
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
zak
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 36):

a) for a working democracy, the citizen should be aware and tought about unbiased, proven scientifical approaches and a broad array of horizons on many topics, hence, mandatory public schools

b) for a working, UNBIASED democracy, seperating religion from government is highly favourable. i have yet to see "bible" people demand more schooling of bhuddist and islamic and shintoistic spiritual approaches to provide more "balance" to our godless continent.

c) by implying that success of christian groups (in a largely christianity dominated continent!!) is adding BALANCE to the whole secular issue in europe, you actually prove that its not about balance but establishing christian extremist dominance
10=2
 
Klaus
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:49 pm

Quoting Daedaeg (Reply 36):
IMHO they provide balance in an increasingly secular and Godless continent.

And neo-nazis probably "provide balance" as well, don't they?  crazy   hypnotized 
 
Pyrex
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
Catholic and traditional



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
protestant (Lutheran) and secular

"Traditional" is not the opposite of "secular"...

Quoting Klaus (Reply 39):
And neo-nazis probably "provide balance" as well, don't they?

Why not? I know you Germans are very keen at the moment on imposing your anti-nazi laws in the rest of Europe (thus creating a barrier to free-speech) but maybe first you should seriously contemplate how effective those have been at home.

Banning neo-nazi and extreme-right groups (note: those are not necessarily the same) only has the effect of turning them more appealing, creating that "dangerous" and wild side. Let the fools speak and showcase their idiocy in public, that is the best way for people to see them for what they are.

In Portugal you are not allowed extreme-right parties on the basis that they "stand against democracy" and yet the tons of communist parties are allowed.

Please note: this is not in anyway a defense of Daedaeg's comments, which I find moronic, but a rebuttal on your (your personally and Germany as a nation) stance against the extreme-right (of which I am in no way a member).
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Acheron
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 40):
In Portugal you are not allowed extreme-right parties on the basis that they "stand against democracy" and yet the tons of communist parties are allowed.

Maybe because the extreme-right has caused more damage to Wester Europe than the communist(except a part of germany, of course) and maybe because communist groups in europe are mostly harmless, loud-mouths, while neo-nazis and other far-right groups are highly agressive. If you heard someone got beaten in Germany or Spain for racial and/or religious reasons, who do you think are the most likely candidates, far-right groups or far-left groups?.
 
Klaus
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 40):
Why not?

Because hatred and murder are not part of anything I'd call "balance"?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 40):
Banning neo-nazi and extreme-right groups (note: those are not necessarily the same) only has the effect of turning them more appealing, creating that "dangerous" and wild side.

Not really.

But the primary issue is that the nazis consistently aim at destroying the democratic order.

Another aspect is that legal parties have the right to public funds above a certain percentage of votes in Germany.

Whether and to what extent the utterance of lies about the nazi atrocities should have legal consequences is a valid discussion; But since we're talking about state-sponored mass murder and nationalistic self-destruction of our nation, I would say that an outright ban of the most heinous lies is a very much valid option.
 
jaysit
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 18):
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 17):
I doubt if Herr Pope will just lollygag in his silky satin gowns and red Prada sequined pumps and let a bunch of tatty, insane, fire and brimstone Southern evangelicals from Sump Pump, Texas and Port-a-pottie, Louisiana run amock in Europe.

:D Man, if you'd just figured out how to throw gays, femenists and Euros in there, you could have offended 99% of the planet! I love it!

Lets try this:

I think that Herr Pope would rather allow a bunch of lesbian feminists be cardinals and Eurotrash DJs sing in the boy's choir, than lollygag in his silky satin gowns and red Prada sequined pumps while a bunch of tatty, insane, fire and brimstone Southern evangelicals from Sump Pump, Texas and Port-a-pottie, Louisiana run amock in Europe.

We can work on including Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Asians, Africans into that line a bit later.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 43):
red Prada sequined pumps

SO last season ! Doesn't he know that purple is the new scarlet ?
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jaysit
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 44):
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 43):
red Prada sequined pumps

SO last season ! Doesn't he know that purple is the new scarlet ?

Yeah, but you can't tap your heels and shuttle straight to the Vatican with purple pumps. Only ruby-red (scarlet) works, and Herr Pope knows it.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jafa39
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 13):
European governments don't pay attention to these religion groups.

European Govts tend not to be swayed by anybody, least of all their own voters! I think it highly unlikely that US Fundies will influence Euro-Politics, if they can't find a way of taxing it or regulating it, they won't let it happen.

The UK govt will certainly resist as you can't fingerprint and profile 4 year-old home schoolers eh?

The point is, Europe is going for more, not less control over people's lives.
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TheCol
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 40):
n Portugal you are not allowed extreme-right parties on the basis that they "stand against democracy" and yet the tons of communist parties are allowed.

I believe there are two reasons for that.

1. Europe has seen the ill effects of the extreme right, more than once, and won't lean in that direction ever again. Regarding Communism on the other hand, most of the world has yet to experience the brutalities of communism.

2. Modern communist movements have learned from the propaganda fallacies of their failed rivals from the extreme right. They have learned to fine-tune or "sugar coat" their policies to appeal to the moderate socialists.
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Pyrex
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:14 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 41):
If you heard someone got beaten in Germany or Spain for racial and/or religious reasons, who do you think are the most likely candidates, far-right groups or far-left groups?.

If you hear someone in Germany or Spain vandalizing a busy high-street during a political convention and throwing molotov cocktails at the police who is it more likely to be, the extreme-ledt or the extreme-right?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
Because hatred and murder are not part of anything I'd call "balance"?

The problem is you try to relativize things that should not be relativized - you are either a democrat or you are not, there are no differing degrees of dictatorship, and the people on both extremes fit the same profile.

Look, I am not trying to defend far-right ideologies in here, as I am not an extremist in any way. I just think that it is hypocritical of Europe as a whole the way they differentiate hatred based on what you believe in / where you stand socially (practiced by the far-left) from hatred based on ethnicity (practiced by the far-right).

And murder has nothing to do with politics - blaming some loudmouth yapping about "those damn foreigners" (something which he should be entitled to do) on a specific crime is like blaming videogames for the Virginia Tech shootings, just an escape-valve for personal responsibility.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 42):
But since we're talking about state-sponored mass murder and nationalistic self-destruction of our nation, I would say that an outright ban of the most heinous lies is a very much valid option.

Fine, but do it on your own country, do not try to impose it on others that still value freedom of speech above (almost) all else.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 47):
1. Europe has seen the ill effects of the extreme right, more than once, and won't lean in that direction ever again. Regarding Communism on the other hand, most of the world has yet to experience the brutalities of communism.

2. Modern communist movements have learned from the propaganda fallacies of their failed rivals from the extreme right. They have learned to fine-tune or "sugar coat" their policies to appeal to the moderate socialists.

1. Europe has seen the ill-effects of communism as well - Eastern Europe for the obvious reasons, Western Europe because of the radical leftist terrorist groups of the 1970's and 1980's

2. Most modern extreme-right groups have learned that too and try to pass on a more amicable image and attract moderate rightists - that is way you will rarely see a skin-head representing one of those parties in front of TV cameras or running at the polls. They know how to distance themselves from Neo-Nazi groups.
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Acheron
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RE: US Evangelicals' Next Target: Laws In Europe

Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 48):
If you hear someone in Germany or Spain vandalizing a busy high-street during a political convention and throwing molotov cocktails at the police who is it more likely to be, the extreme-ledt or the extreme-right?

Any group is prone to vandalize, be it tree huggers, anarchists, extreme-right, extreme-left, British Hooligans.
Only(or mostly, at least) far-right groups are prone to issue beatings for racial or religious reasons.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 48):
. Europe has seen the ill-effects of communism as well - Eastern Europe for the obvious reasons, Western Europe because of the radical leftist terrorist groups of the 1970's and 1980's

But I doubt their actions are comparable(at least outside of the former USSR)to the doings of the Mussolini, Franco, Hitler and others.
Most of those extreme-left passed by through history without leaving any important mark and will eventuall fade away in the memory, unlike the far-right groups that wrote Europe's bloodiest chapters.

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