soylentgreen
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:33 am

Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:01 pm

My thoughts continue to be that without an acknowledgment of, or apology for the Armenian Holocaust, and a withdrawal of troops from Cyprus, it's not going to happen.

Most of the industrialized nations have already issued statements condemning the Armenian genocide, and as far as Turkish Cyprus, only one nation recognizes its existence-Turkey.

Not a good starting point when looking to join the EU.

Anyone else have a differing view that can be presented intelligently?
 
LHStarAlliance
Posts: 2096
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting Soylentgreen (Thread starter):

hopefully not ... seeing what happens now in turkey ... No Chance .. and wtf do they want in Europe , most europeans don´t want them in the EU ...
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 1):
seeing what happens now in turkey

Precisely why it would be a good idea to try to encourage them to the point where they could get in. Or do you want a hostile Islamic state on the eastern borders of Europe?

Quoting Soylentgreen (Thread starter):
and as far as Turkish Cyprus, only one nation recognizes its existence-Turkey.

Yes, and if the EU hadn't been so stupid as to fail to make the referendum in the south conditional for entry, then you might have had the beginnings of a resolution to the issue by now.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 1):
most europeans don´t want them in the EU ...

And a lot of that is blatant racism, sadly enough. The idea of the EU as some kind of Christian-only club is pretty distasteful anyway. There is a lack of strategic thinking on the part of many of the politicians, though some nations are strongly in favour of Turkish entry.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:47 pm

No, EU don´t want a member with borders to Iraq, Iran and Syria, nor Georgia.
I think next new members are Ukraine, Moldavia and Croatia...

[Edited 2007-04-30 15:47:44]
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 2):
Or do you want a hostile Islamic state on the eastern borders of Europe?

Might be better than a hostile islamic state INSIDE the eastern borders of Europe...
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:54 pm

Quoting Soylentgreen (Thread starter):
Not a good starting point when looking to join the EU.

You have to look at it from a Turkish perspective.
> Short-term : a full entry NOW would A) ruin the carpet industry due to EU minimum wages
- - - - - - - and B) put the techn. industry into trouble by good emigration poss. for qualified personnel
> Long-term : Turkey, due to the Bilateral Treaties of the E.U. with Israel and most Arab countries, which are
far more wide-reaching than the old association of Turkey with the E.U., Turkey would get into severe disadvantages
-
This simply means that Turkey will have to settle things like the Armenia-Genocide matters, and most of all the Kurdish problem. In regard to Turkish Cyprus, it exactly is the heavy Turkish military presence which puts Turkish Cyprus at a political dis-advantage. The demands of the Greek Cypriots however at present are clearly beyond anything feasible. The way to settle things are by improving relations with Greece, Armenia and the Arab World, areas where the Turks have not done enough. There are quite a variety of things to get changed in Turkey in the next few years, like the exceedingly high 10% hurdle for parties to get into the parliament, etc. As Turkey in the longer term has no alternative to the E.U., the country will have to do a variety of improvements before a EU-entry can be launched for real.
-

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 1):
and wtf do they want in Europe , most europeans don´t want them in the EU ...

They already ARE in Europe, but want to join the E.U. . You say that "most Europeans" don't want" but forget the "now" etc. To say it again, Turkish business leaders are strictly AGAINST an EU-entry right NOW, but the same persons WANT to have such an entry definitely, but in the longer term. And ONE IMPORTANT reasons they want it is that it is a way to force their political institutions to modernize matters.
-
 
Banco
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 4):
Might be better than a hostile islamic state INSIDE the eastern borders of Europe...

But the point being that by locking them into being a democratic, secular state, you wouldn't. Leave them outside, and who knows what might happen.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Kay
Posts: 1797
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 2):
The idea of the EU as some kind of Christian-only club is pretty distasteful anyway. There is a lack of strategic thinking on the part of many of the politicians, though some nations are strongly in favour of Turkish entry.

Well it is a blend of many things. Some examples do indicate that this tolerance that you are showing doesn't exist in the other direction. The western way of life is simply not identical to the oriental one, and as secular as Turkey wants to be in the future, it is still an Islamic nation to some extent today. Historically, many wars have taken place between half the European countries and exactly Turkey. This was 400 years ago, granted, but the feelings remain.
The Armenian genocide denial doesn't help. The fact that some cases do indicate that Islam, in some contexts, isn't tolerant of the western way of life, doesn't help neither. Women get same/better salaries and very powerful posts, etc etc.

Many of these factors taken alone wouldn't really count, but a huge, powerful non-secular nation, characterized by becoming an enormous empire for 700 years, and characterized by making war with most European nations, and characterized by not admitting a genocide... I understand why it it is difficult.

I know that Europe needs it badly, but that's cause Europe can't sort itself out. Something drastic needs to happen to fix its enormous problems, true.

Kay (not Austrian, don't flame  Wink)
 
Banco
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting Kay (Reply 7):
Well it is a blend of many things. Some examples do indicate that this tolerance that you are showing doesn't exist in the other direction. The western way of life is simply not identical to the oriental one, and as secular as Turkey wants to be in the future, it is still an Islamic nation to some extent today. Historically, many wars have taken place between half the European countries and exactly Turkey. This was 400 years ago, granted, but the feelings remain.
The Armenian genocide denial doesn't help. The fact that some cases do indicate that Islam, in some contexts, isn't tolerant of the western way of life, doesn't help neither. Women get same/better salaries and very powerful posts, etc etc.

But by the same lights you could say that Germany (and Austria - no, not flaming you  Wink ) shouldn't be let anywhere near european institutions because they have such a clear record of starting world wars. And that would clearly be silly. There are plenty of so-called Christian nations (including my own) who have a far from spotless record over the centuries. No-one puts our history in the same religious context as Turkey, and Turkey is a secular nation, not an Islamic one.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Emirates029
Posts: 173
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:43 pm

Dont really see why Turkey should ever join the EU. It is not a predominantly or historically European country based on Judeo-Christian values.
 
Kay
Posts: 1797
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:41 pm

RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
Germany (and Austria - no, not flaming you ) shouldn't be let anywhere near european institutions because they have such a clear record of starting world wars

I agree, but they were already in Europe when they did that  Smile, and it is impossible to kick them out or not to include them in the CEE or the EU later as they are a big chunk of European history, since the Franks and before...

Actually they did block the Turkish invasion too..  Wink

Kay
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting Kay (Reply 7):
The western way of life is simply not identical to the oriental one

Does Turkey "practice" an "oriental" way of life ? the answer to at least 80% is simply NO
-

Quoting Kay (Reply 7):
powerful non-secular nation, characterized by becoming an enormous empire for 700 years, and characterized by making war with most European nations

you speak about the Turkish Empire, which in those times was also the Kaliphate. The Kaliphate has NEVER been assumed by the Republic of Turkey, and the point is that the Empire and the Republic for almost two years existed side by side. The "Empire" was not simply integrated, it was conquered and eliminated. Back to the Turkish Empire / Ottoman Empire. This Empire for a long time was very closely allied with the German Empire. Imperial Turkey did NOT have more war with European countries as other European countries.
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Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 9):
Dont really see why Turkey should ever join the EU. It is not a predominantly or historically European country based on Judeo-Christian values.

It is both historically and predominantly a European country, with its history and culture closely embedded in Europe. It in fact is amazing that the Turks never managed to get into a more than distantly polite relationship with the Arab World. "Judeo-Christian values" is something you might define a bit more closely. Most of these values anyway are also Muslim values. AND you ought to realize that Albania has a Muslim majority and is deeply in Europe.
-

Quoting Kay (Reply 10):
they were already in Europe when they did that

when the Turks "did that" they were just a few kilometers outside Vienna, and that to my knowledge clearly IS "in Europe"  Big grin  Wink
-
to say it again, the Turks have just two long-term choices, one is to be the odd one out and the other one is to approach the EU
-
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 1:43 am

Turkey should not try to join Europe since it would basically increase the cost of living,cost of manufacture and actually decrease the quality of life for many poorer Turks.
They can target a far-reaching assocation agreement with low or no duties to be paid for Turkish goods in EEC.
Turkey will find great markets in the Arab world,Asia,Iran,Africa-their control of manufacture for house-hold goods,Electronics or even building is very good now.
I don't see major problems for Turkey not gaining full EEC membership.And reding german forums about the subject,many Turkish citizens living in Germany are very proud not to search membership at any cost.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Kay
Posts: 1797
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
when the Turks "did that" they were just a few kilometers outside Vienna

Of course the battle was in Europe duh, but what I am saying is they marched all the way from south-east Europe, where they were after invading it as well. They were the invadors, not the natives, a difference!

It took a huge battle, the construction of a massive fortified wall, months of preparation, a long siege again by the Turks, months of illness and isolation, and finally another huge battle in the next century to keep the Turks out of Vienna and to rid them of the threat by the execution of Pasha by the Ottomans themselves. A strategic defeat that could be the reason for the decline of the empire afterwards.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
This Empire for a long time was very closely allied with the German Empire. Imperial Turkey did NOT have more war with European countries as other European countries.

Yes it did!! the notorious "Ottoman wars" spanning all the empire's 700 years, with Hungary, Albany, Italy, Greece, Poland, Austria, Bosnia, Montenegro, Russia, just to name a few!


Kay
 
Banco
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
Turkey should not try to join Europe since it would basically increase the cost of living,cost of manufacture and actually decrease the quality of life for many poorer Turks.

Turkey would benefit massively economically from joining the EU. "Quality of life" as a measure is a pretty nebulous comment.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
Turkey should not try to join Europe since it would basically increase the cost of living,cost of manufacture and actually decrease the quality of life for many poorer Turks.
They can target a far-reaching assocation agreement with low or no duties to be paid for Turkish goods in EEC.
Turkey will find great markets in the Arab world,Asia,Iran,Africa-their control of manufacture for house-hold goods,Electronics or even building is very good now.
I don't see major problems for Turkey not gaining full EEC membership.And reding german forums about the subject,many Turkish citizens living in Germany are very proud not to search membership at any cost.

Also remain the visa-free travel for Russian citizens, hardly possible if member of EU. Russians bring in a lot of money
as tourists to Turkey.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
Turkey should not try to join Europe since it would basically increase the cost of living,cost of manufacture and actually decrease the quality of life for many poorer Turks.

These are the reasons why Turkey is not really in a hurry, but in the long-term, it exports-wise depends too much on the West-European markets and is, not least due to more than 15 mio. Turks living in Western Europe, far too closely linked with the E.U. to go alone.
-

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
They can target a far-reaching assocation agreement with low or no duties to be paid for Turkish goods in EEC.

They already HAVE such assosciation agreement with the E.U., actually have had it for more than 2 decades

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 12):
Turkey will find great markets in the Arab world,Asia,Iran,Africa-their control of manufacture for house-hold goods,Electronics or even building is very good now.

Turkey already HAS these markets, but simply needs access on the European side
-

Quoting Kay (Reply 13):
not the natives, a difference!

in what is Turkey today, a European country, they were and are the "natives"
-

Quoting Kay (Reply 13):
A strategic defeat that could be the reason for the decline of the empire afterwards.

The decline in reality had already started, but on the top. As the saying goes, the fish stinks from its head.
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Quoting Kay (Reply 13):
with Hungary, Albany, Italy, Greece, Poland, Austria, Bosnia, Montenegro, Russia

Hungary  checkmark 
Albania --- NO, the Shkipetars (Albanians) were on the Turkish side
Italy --- Turkey HAD some differences with Italian states (Italy not existing yet), but Italian states had wars with other Italian states as well
Greece --- was NOT existing but part of the Byzantine Empire and so was "in the bag" -- it was the Greeks who in the 1800s wanted to get out
Poland --- Poles went to help the Austrians but there was no war between the Ottoman Empire and Poland
Austria ---  checkmark 
Bosnia --- no such country in history
Montenegro ---  checkmark 
Russia --- Russia was not yet existing when the Ottoman Empire expanded to the North of the Black Sea, military conflicts only came in the 18th/19th century with Russia generally the attacking side
-

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
Turkey would benefit massively economically from joining the EU

as it will. But of course, before that, various things need to be changed. While I hope the Turks are NOT to sacrifice Turkish Cyprus on the altar of their EU-plans, and do NOT yield to the pro-Greek pressures.
-
 
WSOY
Posts: 822
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 2:35 am

Turkey should definitely join the EU. It will create instability in the Union that will result in its collapse from within.
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
Emirates029
Posts: 173
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:13 am

RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
It is both historically and predominantly a European country, with its history and culture closely embedded in Europe. It in fact is amazing that the Turks never managed to get into a more than distantly polite relationship with the Arab World. "Judeo-Christian values" is something you might define a bit more closely. Most of these values anyway are also Muslim values. AND you ought to realize that Albania has a Muslim majority and is deeply in Europe.

To put it in a less rude way, Turkey is not 'demographically aligned' with other European countries. Although that could change in the next few decades. However, even though the likes of Australia, Canada etc are aligned, they still shouldn't be allowed into the EU. Even if I get flamed for that comment, subconsciously that is the issue most people, including those making the decisions in Brussels, have problems with.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting WSOY (Reply 17):
Turkey should definitely join the EU. It will create instability in the Union that will result in its collapse from within.

Turkey in future will become the "south-eastern pillar" of the E.U. and will stabilize and strengthen the E.U. considerably.
-

Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 18):
Turkey is not 'demographically aligned' with other European countries

Neither are the British Isles !  rotfl   rotfl 
 
Emirates029
Posts: 173
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 3:19 am

But the UK is more so, than Turkey.
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 4:36 am

Doesn't Turkey still practice the death penalty? I was under the impression that that was forbidden by the EU.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 4:52 am

Has been abolished last year..
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
WSOY
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:24 pm

RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 19):
Quoting WSOY (Reply 17):
Turkey should definitely join the EU. It will create instability in the Union that will result in its collapse from within.

Turkey in future will become the "south-eastern pillar" of the E.U. and will stabilize and strengthen the E.U. considerably.

So let's all welcome Turkey in a big way! Olli Rehn, we salute you!
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4085
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):

But the point being that by locking them into being a democratic, secular state, you wouldn't. Leave them outside, and who knows what might happen.

They have so far had almost 90 years to form a democratic, secular state and still the Army has to intervene to stop islamists from reaching power, as the people apparently just want to blow democracy away. I'd say they still have a long way to go.

Quoting Banco (Reply 8):
because they have such a clear record of starting world wars

What record? They only started one (WW2). I don't think any single European nation can be afforded the blaim of WW1, it was probably one of the few examples in history where all sides were in the wrong.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
Albania has a Muslim majority and is deeply in Europe.

Yeah, but they have so far been able to fail miserably at being "European" by any definition.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
TurkishWings
Posts: 1243
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting Soylentgreen (Thread starter):
or apology for the Armenian Holocaust

There is no need to apologize for something that never happened, is there? I am sick and tired of discussing this with people so I will not even go there....

Quoting Soylentgreen (Thread starter):
only one nation recognizes its existence-Turkey.

Actually Azerbaijan also recognizes the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. It is very unlikely that Turkey will pull its troops from Cyprus. A unification might be the best answer but a recent poll showed that the Cypriot Greeks don't want it...

As far as the EU is concerned: Turkey SHOULD join the EU as both sides will benefit greatly both economically and socially but the EU is not ready for Turkey yet.. To put it in other words, in my humble personal opinion, EU doesn't deserve our membership yet. EU doesn't deserve our booming economy, young and very hard working population, our culture and the respect we have to it and especially the balance we will bring to the EU being a bridge between the east and the west....We have just become a puppet of the EU and its saddening me. I am happy as things are at the moment but note this down: EU will come crawling to Turkey in no later than 15 years!!!!!
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
soylentgreen
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:33 am

RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 25):
There is no need to apologize for something that never happened, is there? I am sick and tired of discussing this with people so I will not even go there....

Therein lies problem #1.

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 25):
Actually Azerbaijan also recognizes the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. It is very unlikely that Turkey will pull its troops from Cyprus.

And here is #2.

Primary evidence of why EU membership will never happen.
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 6:30 pm

Recent population projections in Europe indicate a need to consider the immigration of several million immigrant workers to keep the population in countries like Germany,France or Italy at normal levels.
The initial opposition in some European Countries regarding Turkey will soften very soon...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
LHStarAlliance
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 6:39 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 2):

The last I´ll ever be is racist ! It´s just that the EU with all just joined countries should first "digest" this countries and then continue with more members . And also ask the Population of the EU countries by Referendum or by parlament if they really want one country in the EU
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 7:07 pm

Quoting Emirates029 (Reply 20):
But the UK is more so, than Turkey.

Turkey has land-borders with other European countries, and vast parts of the peoples of Bulgaria and Albania are ethnically of Turkish origin, while vast parts of the Turkish population are of Bosnian, Albanian, Bulgarian, Greek and Ukrainian origin. The situation is not so far from the one of the British Isles.
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Quoting Pyrex (Reply 24):
still the Army has to intervene to stop islamists from reaching power, as the people apparently just want to blow democracy away.

I above mentioned the 10% hurdle. THIS was the reason why a party with just about 20% of the votes moved into a majority in parliament. It is a rather extreme situation. And I above clearly mentioned that such things HAVE TO change. It of course is NOT the only thing which needs to be changed.
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Quoting Pyrex (Reply 24):
people apparently just want to blow democracy away

to put it the other way round, more than 70% of the people did NOT vote for the party governing at present. That the other parties were all with less than 10% reminds nicely of the Weimar Republic in the Germany of 1933, where the chief of a minority party was the chief of the largest party in the Reichstag and became Imperial Chancellor of a coalition-government ! Which makes it clear how urgent changes in Turkey ARE !
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Quoting Pyrex (Reply 24):
Yeah, but they have so far been able to fail miserably at being "European" by any definition.

Ever been in Turkey ? They ARE European by most definitions.
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Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 26):
There is no need to apologize for something that never happened, is there? I am sick and tired of discussing this with people so I will not even go there....
--
Therein lies problem #1.

-
A severe problem. As soon as both sides agree that it at least to a heavy extent DID happen, but that it happened a decade before the Turkish Republic was established, and that the Turkish Republic is NOT a/the successor of the Ottoman Empire, it will be settled within a year.
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Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 26):
Actually Azerbaijan also recognizes the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. It is very unlikely that Turkey will pull its troops from Cyprus.
--
And here is #2.
--
Primary evidence of why EU membership will never happen.

-
A) the position of the Turkish Republic and the Republic of Azerbaijan in regard to Turkish Cyprus is correct, and there may be a wave of recognitions in a not too distant future, forcing the E.U. to reconsider its totally one-sided and unbalanced stance.
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B) things which "will never happen" usually DO happen. Ever been in Turkish Cyprus ? NO ? you ought to go there, it is absolutely superb ! And you will realize that the time works in favour of Turkish Cyprus. They are the ones who will overcome.
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Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 28):
should first "digest" this countries

indisgestion ? well, here a map of the "Europarat" for a good disgestion :

-
and THIS is the memberlist of the CEPT, the Union of European postal organisations :
Presently Administrations from the following 47 countries are members of CEPT:

Albania, Andorra, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro (application pending), Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russian Federation, San Marino, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom and Vatican.
>> even Russia, Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey are "digested"
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you in fact have to digest that EU politics in future will no longer be based on the Paris-Berlin-London triangle, but that at least Warsaw will need to be included. The center of Europe has shifted from the western "edge" more towards the centre. No longer Strasbourg as the centre but Praha or Budapest.
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pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 7:19 pm

What would be the benefit for the EU? The EU would gain a strategic position - nothing less nothing more.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 27):
Recent population projections in Europe indicate a need to consider the immigration of several million immigrant workers to keep the population in countries like Germany,France or Italy at normal levels.
The initial opposition in some European Countries regarding Turkey will soften very soon...

We've already several millions here and I can assure you it was only for a short period of time beneficial to the German economy. And immigration is possible without EU membership of the country where the immigrants come from (just ask the USA, Canads or Australia...). For immigration an EU membership could be even a disadvantage because it would make contolling immigration impossible (right of free movement of persons).

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 11):
It is both historically and predominantly a European country, with its history and culture closely embedded in Europe.

What are you talking about? Historically Turkey was never part of the Occident. Historically the Christian, especially the Western churches, (and Jewish) roots are probably the most important bond of Europe. Turkey does not have them. Turkey did not have the enlightenment either although there are clearly influences on Turkey during the last century. And Turkey never moved past a jingoistic nationalism. Turkey is definitely not historically a predominantly European country.


pelican
 
LH526
Crew
Posts: 1960
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 3):
Ukraine

WTF?
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 7:36 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):

to put it the other way round, more than 70% of the people did NOT vote for the party governing at present. That the other parties were all with less than 10% reminds nicely of the Weimar Republic in the Germany of 1933, where the chief of a minority party was the chief of the largest party in the Reichstag and became Imperial Chancellor of a coalition-government ! Which makes it clear how urgent changes in Turkey ARE !
-

The problem is not the system as such. There are many countries with minority Governments where a Government doesn't need a majority in the parliament. Then there are countries where a Government has a majority in parliament although they did only gain a relative majority which can be as low as 30 something per cent. Both cases aren't necessarily a problem for democracy. The problem is a strong undemocratic minority and a lack of support for democracy like in the Weimar Republic.


pelican
 
dsa
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 8:13 pm

I think Turkey's admission would be a great thing for the EU. Not only would it encourage cultural cohesion but it would also open up trade relations and make tourism in both directions easier. Anyway the EU has rigorous admission requirements, so Turkey will have to comply if they want in (like improving their prisons) and besides all countries have made mistakes in the past.
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Pyrex
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 29):
Ever been in Turkey ? They ARE European by most definitions.

I am not doubting you. I was talking about Albania.
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cedars747
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 9:11 pm

I wonder why Turkey want to join EU at first place.They have different way of life and definitely different values.Turkey is a large country very well placed between the West and the East what make from it a bridge between different cultures.


Alex!!!
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 30):
gain a strategic position -

the bridge to the Middle East, plus a rapidly growing market, for instance for German products
-

Quoting Pelican (Reply 30):
it was only for a short period of time beneficial to the German economy.

you mean, Italians, Turks and Arabs are no longer clearing the waste-bins ? and have to be replaced by people from farther away ?  Yeah sure  Yeah sure
-


Quoting Pyrex (Reply 34):
Ever been in Turkey ? They ARE European by most definitions.
--
I am not doubting you. I was talking about Albania.

ooops, sorry. Now, I have to admit NEVER to have been in Albania. But I have no doubt that they are as "European" as people in (independent) Macedonia, Moldova etc .
-

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 35):
I wonder why Turkey want to join EU at first place.They have different way of life and definitely different values.Turkey is a large country very well placed between the West and the East what make from it a bridge between different cultures.

A) there way of life has been rather close to the Venetian way of life, which means European
B) there way of life was clearly Europeanized in the 1920ies and 1930ies. You may correctly say that this did NOT include remoter rural areas, but it DID include the major population centres and thereby a majority of the overall population
C) it is geographically on a "bridge" position, but it is seen as integral part of Europe from the Arab side, and is NOT part of Central Asia
D) "between different cultures" ? they have the Turkish culture which is a European culture
-
and back to the central question, WHY to join the EU. Turkey has been in an association-treaty with the E.U., actually already the EEC, for at least three decades. But to join Europe in full has been the long-term idea since 1924, and is the basis of the Turkish Republic, which by definition is a European country. In addition to that, Israel and the more important Arab countries from Morocco to Syria and Jordan have concluded a number of far- and wide- reaching Bilateral Agreements with the E.U. which in a way relegates Turkey into the second rank, and this is a problem for Turkey in the longer term. Those countries will introduce European norms for their products which on European markets will be accepted accordingly, something which is NOT the case with Turkey at this time. Another aspect is that geographically NON-European countries like Cyprus (West-Asia) and Malta (North Africa) have joined the E.U. . So that the final thing for Turkey is that there is no alternative to a full E.U. membership in the longer term
 
cedars747
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
A) there way of life has been rather close to the Venetian way of life, which means European
B) there way of life was clearly Europeanized in the 1920ies and 1930ies. You may correctly say that this did NOT include remoter rural areas, but it DID include the major population centres and thereby a majority of the overall population
C) it is geographically on a "bridge" position, but it is seen as integral part of Europe from the Arab side, and is NOT part of Central Asia
D) "between different cultures" ? they have the Turkish culture which is a European culture
-

No doubt about your knowledge ME ,but when I visit Turkey I dont feel like I am in Europe.Everything is different from people to food and hospitality ect...

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
Banco
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Tue May 01, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 24):
What record? They only started one (WW2). I don't think any single European nation can be afforded the blaim of WW1, it was probably one of the few examples in history where all sides were in the wrong.

I'm not getting into that. Suffice to say, you're talking ignorant nonsense, and you didn't even understand the analogy being painted.  Yeah sure

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 28):
The last I´ll ever be is racist

Oh, Lord, please don't think for a moment that was aimed at you!
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pelican
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Wed May 02, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
you mean, Italians, Turks and Arabs are no longer clearing the waste-bins ? and have to be replaced by people from farther away

I mean that they vastly overrepresented among unemployed.You're talking about cliches - they were never engaged in their homeland to clear waste bins in Germany. I'm not talking about Switzerland with nearly no unemployment. There is no reason why Germans can't clear waste bins. The reason why Turks and Arabs are overrepresented among junk jobs is because the average has a lower or non qualification.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 36):
plus a rapidly growing market, for instance for German products

According to that logic we should talk with China about their accession to the EU. A tariff union should be sufficient.

Quoting Banco (Reply 38):

I'm not getting into that. Suffice to say, you're talking ignorant nonsense, and you didn't even understand the analogy being painted.

Nonetheless he is right about the number of world wars started by Germany...

pelican
 
CO7e7
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Wed May 02, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting Soylentgreen (Thread starter):
My thoughts continue to be that without an acknowledgment of, or apology for the Armenian Holocaust, and a withdrawal of troops from Cyprus, it's not going to happen.

You really they'll apologize??? Read reply #25.

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 25):
There is no need to apologize for something that never happened, is there? I am sick and tired of discussing this with people so I will not even go there....

You can be sick all you want. Your people MASACERED the Armenians.. whether you like it or not.

And if everyone in Turkey shares your thoughts, then you're gonna be dreaming about the EU....

Your post is disgusting and pathetic.

Quoting Soylentgreen (Reply 26):
Therein lies problem #1.

 checkmark  i agree with you 100%
 
Banco
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Wed May 02, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 39):
Nonetheless he is right about the number of world wars started by Germany...

If you really want to debate this, fine by me. The actual spark may not have been Germany's but the Kaiser's naked territorial and political ambitions created the circumstances whereby it could happen. Germany was culpable above all others, right back to provoking an arms race with all other leading powers, including the most powerful of all, Britain, because of a stupid desire for parity.
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Pyrex
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Wed May 02, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 38):
you didn't even understand the analogy being painted.

I understood the analogy being painted perfectly (Germany being allowed into Europe despite its recent past and all that) but the only reason Germany is afforded the blame for WW1 is because they lost, pure and simple. Even if they were responsible, the conflicts created by the way the British and the French won the war have probably killed as many people as WW1 (and no, I'm not talking about WW2).
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Wed May 02, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 30):
What are you talking about? Historically Turkey was never part of the Occident. Historically the Christian, especially the Western churches, (and Jewish) roots are probably the most important bond of Europe. Turkey does not have them. Turkey did not have the enlightenment either although there are clearly influences on Turkey during the last century. And Turkey never moved past a jingoistic nationalism. Turkey is definitely not historically a predominantly European country.

.-
"never part of the Occident", neither were Russia, the Ukraine or Greece. The Greek Orthodox Church was "East Rome" and therefore part of the Orient. "Jewish roots" ? you mean those roots which made the Jews victims to persecution ?
"did not have the enlightenment" ? neither did the Russian Empire. While the Young Turks (Enver Pasha, Talaat Pasha, Djemal Pasha ) HAD ideals out of this. Turkey was/is NOT more "jingoistic" than many Europeans.
-

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 37):
when I visit Turkey I dont feel like I am in Europe.Everything is different from people to food and hospitality ect...

When I am in Turkey, I DO feel to be in Europe. Things are NOT more different from Central Western Europe than things are in Moscow. And food and hospitality in Paris and London is hardly exactly the same !  Big grin
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Quoting Pelican (Reply 39):
The reason why Turks and Arabs are overrepresented among junk jobs is because the average has a lower or non qualification.

No doubt, but such things are subject to change, even to rapid change. And there are things like the Peugeot factory in Mulhouse which is one of the most productive and efficient motor-car factories on earth, and the main part of the workforce are ethnically of Maghreb-origin. The being as a worker in car-factory may not be exactly "gloire" but good work is good work. That the Turks in Germany are over-represented among the unemployed may be, but I would love to see figures to prove the extent of this.
-

Quoting Pelican (Reply 39):
we should talk with China

their major metropolis is NOT in Europe. Look at the borders of the European Council I placed above. And the list of the CEPT members. Turkey is member of most European organisations already, while China is NOT .
-

Quoting Pelican (Reply 39):
A tariff union should be sufficient.

a tariff-union already was implemented in the 1950ies, and Turkey NOW is already an EU-associate. But the EU in the meantime has signed most extensive Bilateral Treaties with the more important Arab countries and with Israel, which places Turkey into the second row. What Turkey in the longer term needs is a full EU membership.
-
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Wed May 02, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 37):
No doubt about your knowledge ME ,but when I visit Turkey I dont feel like I am in Europe.Everything is different from people to food and hospitality ect...

Funny, when I visited Greece, I felt like I was in Turkey.. Very little difference between the two countries...

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 40):
You can be sick all you want. Your people MASACERED the Armenians.. whether you like it or not.

Just what do you know about Turkey.. Please do not make such comments on things that happened 10000 kms away from you... I can't believe you are so sure.. Who exactly filled you in?

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 40):
Your post is disgusting and pathetic.

Should I ask for deletion or should I just say that you are a very very sad person....I really pity you...

Quoting CO7e7 (Reply 40):
And if everyone in Turkey shares your thoughts, then you're gonna be dreaming about the EU....

Please re-read my post... EU will be dreaming about Turkey very soon... You know what? When the whole discussion about the EU started a few years back, majority of the population supported the idea.. Today, the supporters are at about 35-40 %.

We opened up our entire archives to prove our point.... Did the Armenians open theirs? Nope... Because when they do, the world will learn the truth... Armenians have very strong lobby...That is their biggest advantage.. And it's a very well known fact that the more you whine, the more support you get....

I have no problems with Armenians.. I have great Armenian-Turkish friends and we get along just fine.. When this subject comes along, we just laugh at it... It's funny that the world is fighting over this issue when Turkish and Turkish-Armenians are getting on just fine....

Do you have any idea how many thousands of Turkish people marched to condemn the shooting of Hrant Dink a couple of months ago? There was only one slogan during that rally "We are all Armenians". Minorities have always lived happily in Turkey... It's the external powers who provoke Kurdish, Armenian, Christian etc.. problems... At home, we live in peace....
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pelican
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Wed May 02, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 43):
"never part of the Occident", neither were Russia, the Ukraine or Greece.-

And only Greece is in the EU. Whether it was part of the Occident is up for debate since it was part of the Ottoman
empire for many centuries.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 43):
"Jewish roots" ? you mean those roots which made the Jews victims to persecution ?

Despite the persecution the Jews were an important part of European culture. There are many Jews who became very influential on European culture. One of the most influential was called Jesus  Wink

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 43):
"did not have the enlightenment" ? neither did the Russian Empire.

And nobody -including the Russians - wants Russia in the EU.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 43):
While the Young Turks (Enver Pasha, Talaat Pasha, Djemal Pasha ) HAD ideals out of this. Turkey was/is NOT more "jingoistic" than many Europeans.
-

The key is was. And even that is debatable considering what the Young Turks did with the Armenians. Nonetheless I won't say anything about this because it sounds a bit strange coming from a German.
Concerning the present - how would you call a country which has laws to persecute people for defamation of Turkishness. How often do we hear that Turkey was insulted by this or by that even from Turkish officials.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 43):
a tariff-union already was implemented in the 1950ies, and Turkey NOW is already an EU-associate. But the EU in the meantime has signed most extensive Bilateral Treaties with the more important Arab countries and with Israel, which places Turkey into the second row. What Turkey in the longer term needs is a full EU membership.

But does the EU need a full membership of Turkey? My point is/was that the way of deepening economic cooperation is the way to go and not full membership.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 43):
No doubt, but such things are subject to change, even to rapid change. And there are things like the Peugeot factory in Mulhouse which is one of the most productive and efficient motor-car factories on earth, and the main part of the workforce are ethnically of Maghreb-origin. The being as a worker in car-factory may not be exactly "gloire" but good work is good work. That the Turks in Germany are over-represented among the unemployed may be, but I would love to see figures to prove the extent of this.

Of course things change. I don't want to sound like I hate Turks. I just doubt the advantages of a full membership would outweigh the disadvantages for the EU. One point is that the German economy did not benefit from Turkish immigration in the long run. I have no recent figures for unemployment among Turks in Germany. Nonetheless in 2005 the unemployment figures for non Germans in Germany were more than twice the average (including foreigners) Source in German
An artcle about the economical situation of Turks in Germany (in German)

I don't doubt that Turks won't work as hard or good as Germans.

Quoting Banco (Reply 41):

If you really want to debate this, fine by me.

I'm often in a mood for a debate about history or economics...

Quoting Banco (Reply 41):
The actual spark may not have been Germany's but the Kaiser's naked territorial and political ambitions created the circumstances whereby it could happen. Germany was culpable above all others, right back to provoking an arms race with all other leading powers, including the most powerful of all, Britain, because of a stupid desire for parity.

Problem is that was always the British (mis-)interpretation of the situation. Why was his desire for parity stupid? I could also argue that the desire of GB to remain the sole super power was silly because it was outdated by that time.
But the topic was whether Germany started the war and not the role of Germany in starting an arms race.

The Kaiser's fault was that his politics could be interpreted as expansive and agressive. The war showed that he was never willing to risk his fleet in battle. The emprial German fleet was more a kind of a kid's toy for the Kaiser.

pelican
 
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yowza
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Wed May 02, 2007 6:55 am

Promises will be made and borken, stall tactics will be employed. When all is said and done Turkey will gain full entry into the EU the same day that the US elects a gay, black, jew president. 'nuff said.

YOWza
 
RobertNL070
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Wed May 02, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 44):
Minorities have always lived happily in Turkey... It's the external powers who provoke Kurdish, Armenian, Christian etc.. problems... At home, we live in peace....

Let's just hope that the murder of three employees of a Protestant publishing house in Malatya on 19th April was just a very isolated incident. However ...

"There is a rising wave of nationalist feeling in Turkey, our correspondent reports, with Christian minorities complaining of pressure and harassment."

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6572257.stm

Hopefully these are the actions of a very small number of misguided lunatics.

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prebennorholm
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Wed May 02, 2007 8:26 am

Turkey may become an EU member one day. But it will be a long time into the future, and a very different Turkey. And first of all it has to be a Turkey which wants to become a member, that seems not to be the case today.

Still I think that the negotiations should continue. Constantly reminding Turkey about what is missing in meeting the Copenhagen Criteria will only help Turkey on its way to become a more stable nation. That alone is in everybody's interest, especially the Turks of course. A lot of progress in that direction has already taken place.

But it is of course totally intolerable that Turkey occupies part of another EU member state.

It is totally intolerable that a secular state partly relies on military to suppress religious influence in civil power.

Turkey will have to prove over a couple of decades that it is a stable, secular democracy. Until then talks will be nothing but talks.

I have a feeling that many Turks think that ongoing negotiations with the EU are sort of "give and take" negotiations. That's simply not the case. The Copenhagen Criteria are not up for discussion. They can be implemented in various ways by Turkey to fit the Turkish society better or worse, and the EU negotiators can propose various flavors of Turkish implementation. But that's all. No give and take. Good advice by EU negotiators, and hard work by the Turkish government, that's the name of the game.

When the Copenhagen criteria have been implemented 100% in a stable way, then it is up to Turkish charm to convince the 27 (or more) EU member states that Turkish membership is a good idea.

When not being over-optimistic, then that path seems immensely long today.

First of all a fair part of those 60-70% of the Turks, who today are opposing membership, will have to die of age after having raised kids with the opposite oppinion.
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Asturias
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RE: Any Chance Of Turkey Joining EU?

Wed May 02, 2007 10:52 am

No, Turkey will not join the EU. Safe to say not in the next century, safe enough to say as long as the EU lasts.

Quoting Banco (Reply 2):
Or do you want a hostile Islamic state on the eastern borders of Europe?

If Turkey would join that would not change. Either it is the hostile islamic state of Turkey or the hostile islamic state of Iran.. Your logic makes no sense.


Quoting WSOY (Reply 17):
Turkey should definitely join the EU. It will create instability in the Union that will result in its collapse from within.

Ah that's a point of view, and quite accurate. It would mean the end of the Union. I do not wish that, but I know there is a minority that holds the opposite point of view  Wink

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 25):
There is no need to apologize for something that never happened, is there? I am sick and tired of discussing this with people so I will not even go there....

This is a sick and sad twist of historical facts. This is no better than Holocaust denial. Sick, sick, sick.

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 25):
but the EU is not ready for Turkey yet.. To put it in other words, in my humble personal opinion, EU doesn't deserve our membership yet.

This is the definition of sour grapes. We don't want you, so we don't deserve your membership. Well, I hope we don't deserve it for a long long time and when we do that we still refuse to let Turkey join.

Turkey is nothing like Europe, nevermind what propaganda ME AVN FAN spouts. Perhaps it is because I am European and he is not, that I see this. I can understand how being in Turkey feels somewhat like 'home' to him, while it feels completely foreign and unknown to me.

Turkey is not and never was a part of Europe. It probably never will be. However, like with many many countries all over the world, the EU will continue to have successful business with Turkey.

When Mexico becomes part of the USA, then perhaps we can talk about Turkish ascension to the EU along with Israel. (note the absurdity)

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