cedars747
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Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Tue May 01, 2007 8:57 pm

A panel investigating Israel's war in Lebanon last year has accused the country's wartime leaders of "very severe failures" in their handling of the conflict in an interim report.
The Winograd commission, appointed by Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, found he did not have a "well-processed plan" when he launched the campaign against Hezbollah.
The commission on Monday criticised what it called Olmert's "severe failure in judgment, responsibility and caution" in going to war last July.
Olmert admitted "mistakes were made" but said he had "no intention of resigning".
The report capped a six-month investigation into the conflict, which has been widely perceived as a failure by the Israeli public

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
cedars747
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Tue May 01, 2007 10:38 pm

Eitan Cabel, is the first Israeli cabinet minister to resign over the report.Cabel, said on Tuesday: "Ehud Olmert Israel's prime minister must resign


Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
baroque
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Tue May 01, 2007 10:54 pm

Quoting Cedars747 (Thread starter):
The Winograd commission, appointed by Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, found he did not have a "well-processed plan" when he launched the campaign against Hezbollah.

Looks almost as if the commission included some a.net members who wondered if the attack was a sensible idea.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Tue May 01, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting Cedars747 (Thread starter):
The Winograd commission, appointed by Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, found he did not have a "well-processed plan" when he launched the campaign against Hezbollah.

Your country is under rocket attack, your citizens are dying, and you are supposed to sit back an formulate a plan. Now that's leadership!
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
cedars747
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Tue May 01, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
Looks almost as if the commission included some a.net members who wondered if the attack was a sensible idea.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
Nice one Baroque ! Anyways ,what made a country like Israel with more than 50 years of experience in wars and fully support of a super power commit such mistake ?


Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
NAV20
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Tue May 01, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
Your country is under rocket attack, your citizens are dying, and you are supposed to sit back an formulate a plan.

In a word, yes. You don't (or shouldn't) start killing people, and getting your own people killed, unless you have formulated clear and achievable objectives. Otherwise it's just senseless slaughter - which is exactly how the invasion of Lebanon turned out.

In any case, the rockets started AFTER Israel attacked Lebanon. The 'casus belli' was the capture of two Israeli soldiers in a patrol action, not rockets.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
cedars747
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Tue May 01, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
Your country is under rocket attack

A very good response by :

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
In any case, the rockets started AFTER Israel attacked Lebanon

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Tue May 01, 2007 11:19 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
Your country is under rocket attack, your citizens are dying, and you are supposed to sit back an formulate a plan. Now that's leadership!

to be under attack can NEVER be an excuse for a lack of thinking, and the urgency of action can never justify brainless commands. Most of the losses of human lifes and heavy damage in Haifa would have been avoidable by sensible strategies and realistic assessments.
-
 
Alessandro
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Tue May 01, 2007 11:23 pm

NAV20, hardly, first Hiz started shelling then attack IDF in Israel.
This is the sign of a democratic state, if you fail you resign, not stay in power like Baathist fcuk ups.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
cedars747
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Tue May 01, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 8):
This is the sign of a democratic state, if you fail you resign, not stay in power like Baathist fcuk ups.

That's true !

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 8):
NAV20, hardly, first Hiz started shelling then attack IDF in Israel.

That's not true

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
NAV20
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Tue May 01, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 8):
This is the sign of a democratic state, if you fail you resign, not stay in power like Baathist fcuk ups.

Someone better tell Olmert that!

"Olmert, who heads the centrist Kadima party, said he would not resign, insisting he was the best man to put things right.

"It would not be right to quit and I have no intention of doing so," Olmert told Israelis in a concise televised address, hours after the nation watched former Supreme Court judge Eliyahu Winograd read out sharp criticism of his actions."


http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/...port/2007/05/01/1177788138624.html
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
cedars747
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Tue May 01, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Olmert, who heads the centrist Kadima party, said he would not resign, insisting he was the best man to put things right.

Haha ! but I think he will resign at the end.

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
RJdxer
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
In any case, the rockets started AFTER Israel attacked Lebanon. The 'casus belli' was the capture of two Israeli soldiers in a patrol action, not rockets.

Sure about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

[b]The conflict began after Hezbollah fired Katyusha rockets and mortars at Israeli border villages, diverting attention from another Hezbollah unit that crossed the border, kidnapping two Israeli soldiers and killing three others.[b]

http://www.historyguy.com/israel-lebanon_war_2006.html

[b]In Lebanon, this war is known as the "July War," while many Israelis call it the "Second Lebanon War."

Hezbollah launched "Operation True Promise" at 9:05 AM, on July 12, 2006. The operation began with a diversionary attack of rockets and mortar shells fired at Israeli settlements and military posts near the Israel-Lebanon border. Hezbollah troops then entered Israel, attacked two armored Israeli Humvees, patrolling the border village of Zar'it, with rocket propelled grenades, killing three soldiers and capturing two others. The Hezbollah force then retreated back into Lebanon with their captives, later identified as Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev.
[b]

And before you respond, soldiers are citizens.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):
Your country is under rocket attack, your citizens are dying, and you are supposed to sit back an formulate a plan. Now that's leadership!

Nope. . . you initiate action on the plan that you've had for months, perhaps some tweaking, but initiate the action on the plan.

Remember members here pissing and moaning because ISRAEL HAD A PLAN several months before the war? NOW you know why such a plan is necessary.

Damn, I hate it when I'm right.

And while I'm here:" Cedars747, I'd really like a link to this "REPORT" so we can verify the accuracy of your posts. I wouldn't presume to call you a liar, I have in fact heard of this report; but I don't have any qualms wondering if you haven't perhaps twisted a detail or so for your own agenda. Besides, reading the report in proper context is always preferable to the bleeps and blurbs copied and pasted into a web post.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
cedars747
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
And while I'm here:" Cedars747, I'd really like a link to this "REPORT" so we can verify the accuracy of your posts. I wouldn't presume to call you a liar, I have in fact heard of this report; but I don't have any qualms wondering if you haven't perhaps twisted a detail or so for your own agenda. Besides, reading the report in proper context is always preferable to the bleeps and blurbs copied and pasted into a web post.

I know you hate me ! I am sorry for that but I cant change my personality and bellieves just to please you and others.

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
andessmf
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
In any case, the rockets started AFTER Israel attacked Lebanon. The 'casus belli' was the capture of two Israeli soldiers in a patrol action, not rockets.

Not correct as stated above. Let's not start creating myths like the 'Jenin Massacre'.

But anyways, the reports look damning enough to force his resignation.
 
ORFflyer
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 14):
I know you hate me !

He didn't say that.

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 14):
I am sorry for that but I cant change my personality and bellieves just to please you and others

He didn't request that.

What he did request:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
Cedars747, I'd really like a link to this "REPORT" so we can verify the accuracy of your posts

Pretty elementary.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 14):
I know you hate me

I don't hate you, I don't even know you . . . .

I simply would like a link to the report . . . .

Both to satisfy the curiosity of the members here - and to comply with the Rules of the Forums (#8 specifically). Otherwise, everything you say can be construed as simple opinion. As I said, I have heard such a report exists, but the onus is on YOU to provide said link in YOUR thread.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
bravo45
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 1:15 am

This report is made by Israelis from the perspective of Israel. The most it does is to confirm that Israel lost the war contrary to all those saying Israel had accomplish the weakening or destruction of Hezbollah (yeah right, as if we needed to know that). I would only be satisfied when those (both military and politicians) be brought to justice over the war crimes committed during the war; NOTE: Capturing a soldier does not equal a war crime, cluster bombing of civilians does.
And what compensation is being paid to the victims?

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 14):
I know you hate me ! I am sorry for that but I cant change my personality and bellieves just to please you and others.

Alex!!!

About ANC, I have always been confused, I wouldn't go as far as to say he 'hates' someone (he may as well do) but when it comes to this topic, he is extremely biased. Just mention a certain Israeli PM on a thread with a topic that does not includes his name and post is deleted being 'off topic'.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
twisted a detail or so for your own agenda.

What agenda? The Hezbollah agenda or the Hamas agenda?

Either way as far as I am concerned, this report as is good as it would have been had it never surfaced. I am more concerned about the killers that walk/lie on bed, free in that region.
 
cedars747
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Both to satisfy the curiosity of the members here - and to comply with the Rules of the Forums (#8 specifically). Otherwise, everything you say can be construed as simple opinion. As I said, I have heard such a report exists, but the onus is on YOU to provide said link in YOUR thread.

Feel free to delete

Alex!!!
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bravo45
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 1:28 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 15):
Let's not start creating myths like the 'Jenin Massacre'.

Oh wait! So Jenin was a party?
 
bravo45
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 12):
Sure about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Is...flict



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 15):
Not correct as stated above.

Source; Wikipedia..... Nuff said
 
rjpieces
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 20):
Oh wait! So Jenin was a party?

The "Jenin Massacre", which I'm sure many A.netters were up in arms about a few years back, turned out to be almost completely false.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
RJdxer
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 21):
Source; Wikipedia..... Nuff said

That would be why I included a second seperate source.  sigh  But that's ok, just ignore it.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
andessmf
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 21):
Source; Wikipedia..... Nuff said

Source, UN. Good enough for you?

The crisis started when, around 9 a.m. local time, Hizbollah launched several rockets from Lebanese territory across the withdrawal line (the so-called Blue Line) towards Israel Defense Forces (IDF) positions near the coast and in the area of the Israeli town of Zarit. In parallel, Hizbollah fighters crossed the Blue Line into Israel and attacked an IDF patrol.

http://domino.un.org/unispal.NSF/fd8...8/87e2508779d8ec83852571b6004c761f

Notice that it is a UN report.

As for Jenin, here is the report from Human Right Watch.

"Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin refugee camp. "

http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-01.htm#P49_1774

Now, here you have plenty of ammunition to criticize the actions of the Israeli government last year, backed by Israel itself, but you go off in tangents with false allegations. Why?
 
cedars747
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 18):
when it comes to this topic, he is extremely biased

Hello Jawad ! and thanks for your reply  Smile
Back to the topic:
what made a country like Israel with more than 50 years of experience in wars and fully support of a super power commit such mistake ?

Regards !
Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
andessmf
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 25):
what made a country like Israel with more than 50 years of experience in wars and fully support of a super power commit such mistake ?

Olmert is completely blasted for not thinking and not paying attention to what others were saying should happen.
 
Joni
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 3):

Your country is under rocket attack, your citizens are dying, and you are supposed to sit back an formulate a plan. Now that's leadership!

Here's an article on the run-up to the conflict:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1839244,00.html
 
rjpieces
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 25):
what made a country like Israel with more than 50 years of experience in wars and fully support of a super power commit such mistake ?

What made the United States, a country with way more than 50 years of experience in fighting wars and a superpower on a scale much larger than Israel, think it could peacefully occupy Iraq?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
NAV20
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 24):
The crisis started when, around 9 a.m. local time, Hizbollah launched several rockets from Lebanese territory across the withdrawal line (the so-called Blue Line) towards Israel Defense Forces (IDF) positions near the coast and in the area of the Israeli town of Zarit. In parallel, Hizbollah fighters crossed the Blue Line into Israel and attacked an IDF patrol.

Seems to square with the first incident being nothing more than a 'patrol action.' Those are common in border areas whenever there are territorial disputes, there were even a few during the Cold War. Normal practice is NOT to let them escalate into a major confrontation.

Israel's options were EITHER to negotiate an exchange of prisoners and re-visit their border defence arrangements, OR to start a war. They chose the latter, and the first thing they did was carry out a strategic bombing campaign across the whole of Lebanon, starting with Beirut Airport. Then, after a long buildup, they launched a ground invasion.

The bombing campaign was irrelevant to any confrontation with Hezbollah, who were well dug in in prepared positions in the extreme south. The ground invasion failed (predictably) because mechanised forces with a high proportion of armoured vehicles are at a disadvantage against guerrilla forces in mountainous terrain.

Both those outcomes - aerial bombing of civilian areas proving irrelevant, and a conventional military campaign in South Lebanon failing - were entirely predictable. And I'm sure that the professionals running the Israeli armed forces will indeed have predicted them; and will have said that months of conscription, mobilisation, and re-equipment - and a great deal of reconnaissance - would be required before there was any chance of succeeding.

So one has to assume that Olmert didn't just order an attack without an achievable plan - he ordered an attack that had no reasonable chance of succeeding. For that, he should resign, at the least.

[Edited 2007-05-02 04:54:09]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
RJdxer
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 12:01 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 27):
Here's an article on the run-up to the conflict:

There has been a heated debate on the internet about whether the two Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hizbullah that day were captured in Israel or in Lebanon, but it now seems pretty clear that they were seized in Israel. This is what the UN says, and even Hizbullah seems to have forgotten that they were supposed to have been found sneaking around the outskirts of the Lebanese village of Aita al-Shaab. Now it simply states that "the Islamic resistance captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine". Three other Israeli soldiers were killed by the militants. There is also some dispute about when, on July 12, Hizbullah first fired its rockets; but Unifil makes it clear that the firing took place at the same time as the raid - 9am. Its purpose seems to have been to create a diversion. No one was hit.

Which supports my orginal statement.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
So one has to assume that Olmert didn't just order an attack without an achievable plan - he ordered an attack that had no reasonable chance of succeeding. For that, he should resign, at the least.

What he lost was the media battle. Hezbolah was aided and abetted by a sympathetic press that published staged shots of homes that were destroyed apprently several times over not to mention children that were killed at least 3 or 4 times if you believe the pictures.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 1:11 pm

Cedars,

I'm still waiting on the source of your thread starter.

Nothing personal, nothing biased, simply part of the game you have to play if you post here. Want to post this stuff, you need to provide a source. Otherwise, you're simply pissin' up a rope.

Source please.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
andessmf
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 1:35 pm

What about me giving you sources?

Debkafile has plenty (supposed to have Israeli intelligence sources)

http://www.debka.com

Jerusalem Post gives several stories.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

See, Alex, fairly easy to do.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 1:54 pm

For a source all one has to do is google Winograd Commission, and voila, the sixth link down on the first page is a summary by the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs. It details the points of the report, and notes that it is still an interim, not a full report.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government...its+Interim+Report+30-Apr-2007.htm

Carry on.
International Homo of Mystery
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
What he lost was the media battle. Hezbolah was aided and abetted by a sympathetic press that published staged shots of homes that were destroyed apprently several times over not to mention children that were killed at least 3 or 4 times if you believe the pictures.

So even when the Israelis admit themselves that the war was a lost cause you basically turn a blind eye and force yourself to live in delusion. Sad.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
andessmf
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 34):
force yourself to live in delusion.

Unless you admit here, as proven by me in reply #24, that you were also deluded, you have no right to make that comment.
 
NAV20
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 2:47 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
Hezbolah was aided and abetted by a sympathetic press that published staged shots of homes that were destroyed apprently several times over not to mention children that were killed at least 3 or 4 times if you believe the pictures.

Oh dear, RJdxer, REALLY!  Smile

Did the media only show the 9/11 shots once? Not to mention 'Mission Accomplished'?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
andessmf
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 3:03 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 36):
Did the media only show the 9/11 shots once? Not to mention 'Mission Accomplished'?

Did they manipulate pictures to show something that did not exist?

http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/newswir...p?vnu_content_id=1002951326&&imw=Y
 
Springbok747
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 3:06 pm

Ah another oppurtunity to bash Israel...yay  Yeah sure

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
In any case, the rockets started AFTER Israel attacked Lebanon.

Not true. Also it wasn't Israel who started the war, it started when those two soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah.

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 9):
Alex!!!

Dude, really, why do you keep shouting your name at the end of every post  confused  .
אני תומך בישראל
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 3:15 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 35):
Unless you admit here, as proven by me in reply #24, that you were also deluded, you have no right to make that comment.

What are you talking about? I have not even made a single comments in this thread as yet. At least try to see who ur responding to beforing posting ur message.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
andessmf
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 3:18 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 39):

Read my replies to others in #24. If these beliefs did not apply to you, I apologize in advance. If they did, then my reply #35 applies.
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 3:18 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 38):
Ah another oppurtunity to bash Israel...yay Yeah sure

Seriously, even after there own government inquiry bashes them u have sympathy? Some things just go beyond me.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 11):
he will resign at the end.

possible, but if so, they at his party first have to determine his successor, whose business will be to succeed against "re-born" Mr Netanyahu, whose utter failures many Israelis apparently have forgotten in the meantime
-

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
a link to this "REPORT" so we can verify the accuracy

as nobody outside has access to the internal files of both the Israeli government and the Hizbullah leadership, whatever "link" somebody may provide is worthless. Everything we "know" in a way is assumption on the basis of what is known and what might be concluded.
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Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 18):
The most it does is to confirm that Israel lost the war

exactly THIS shows that people on the Israeli side perceived the bombardments of Haifa as a "losing of the war", and I suppose that many Israelis at least as well as others saw that the military campaign as such was a failure, even if the Israelis succeeded in pushing Hizbullah out of the border zone.
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at the other hand, Hizbullah claims victory, while it in reality lost, lost not so much to the Israelis than to the other parties inside Lebanon
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Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 26):
Olmert is completely blasted for not thinking and not paying attention to what others were saying should happen.

a tragic figure in a way. A superb politician but a lousy strategist. He might be defended to some extent by saying that he trusted his military leaders --- maybe .
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Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 31):
the source

here we go
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6608649.stm
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/854051.html
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/middleeast/news/article_1298290.php
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/04/30/olmert-failure.html?ref=rss
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Quoting RJdxer (Reply 30):
Hezbolah was aided and abetted by a sympathetic press that published staged shots of homes that were destroyed apprently several times over not to mention children that were killed at least 3 or 4 times if you believe the pictures.

You mean like that nice lady who handed out candies to children on 12th September 01 in Beirut, Jerusalem, Gaza, Hebron, Cairo and Alexandria at absolutely the same time ! a miraculously omnipotent person !
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Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 38):
Not true. Also it wasn't Israel who started the war, it started when those two soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah.

Kidnapping is NOT war but a Capital Crime. This Capital Crime however was what provoked Israel into war. What this Israeli investigation panel however had in mind was NOT to blame their own country but to blame their government for planning and conducting this war campaign in a very shoddy and careless way. What they mostly care about, understandable, is the loss of human life and the considerable damage caused to Haifa long after the start of the campaign, exactly something a well planned campaign should have made impossible. That you can unload sea-ships offshore and transfer goods onto the shore by small boats is an aspect which was not sufficiently taken into consideration. That a seaport which is dominated by Christians of various denominations like the one of Beirut for Hizbullah always was NO WAY was equally dis-regarded. You have to see that the report in question is NOT anti-Israel, it however may well be anti-Olmert.
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NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 4:19 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 41):
Some things just go beyond me.

Me too, Emirates773ER. Apart from anything else, it was a WAR - a couple of thousand people got killed, and I'm sure that more people - especially kids - get killed or maimed every day by the cluster-bombs that were strewn indiscriminately over large areas of Lebanon.

It appals me that some people just see it as just a matter of how the media handled it. I see blood and people being killed or blinded or losing limbs...........

Don't know about anyone else - but during my brief (and thoroughly undistinguished) association with the military the thing that scared me (and everyone else) more than anything else was the prospect of having to deal with landmines. The thought of exposing civilians, especially kids (of ANY nationality), to that sort of menace sort of 'freezes my blood.'

I suppose that the truth is that I'm just 'old-fashioned.'  Smile
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 4:46 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 43):
it was a WAR - a couple of thousand people got killed, and I'm sure that more people - especially kids - get killed or maimed every day by the cluster-bombs that were strewn indiscriminately over large areas of Lebanon.

we had THIS already last year. As became apparent, many people do NOT care about this for a micro-second and only blame Hizbullah for the mess.  Angry
 
Kay
Posts: 1797
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 3:41 pm

RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 6:04 pm

Yep the report looks like it listened well to all that we have been saying on these forums (I remember at least 5 posts by me not a few days within the start of the war where I was writing it wasn't going anywhere like that)...


What an absolutely useless war. The level of ignorance displayed by Sharon's second man... The level of irresponsability, the lack insight, the ridiculous targets set, it was amazing. The level of destruction achieved, the level of hate that was nurtured, the level of violence that now became normal. All this and I can't begin to think what the relatives of those who died so uselessly must be thinking. Such a level of power in the wrong hands. Destroy hundreds of Israeli's lives, and thousands of Lebanese lives, and pretty much a whole nation.

What a desolation. And to think that atrocities can be commited, and undone when some high-level suit resigns.

Kay


PS: the good news is that it looks like Israel will need to skip its yearly summer "action" this summer while it cleans this internal mess up. A good summer and tourist season ahead for Lebanon!
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 6:20 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 34):
So even when the Israelis admit themselves that the war was a lost cause you basically turn a blind eye and force yourself to live in delusion. Sad.

Had the Israelis won the media battle, which they were doomed to lose from the start, there would have not been any commission just as there was no commission looking into allied war crimes after WW2.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 36):
Did the media only show the 9/11 shots once? Not to mention 'Mission Accomplished'?

Did the media claim that the World Trade Center buildings were knocked down on Tuesday, again on Wednesday, and again on Thursday? Did the media say that President Bush landed and spoke on 4 different aircraft carriers?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 6:32 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 46):
there would have not been any commission just as there was no commission looking into allied war crimes after WW2.

don't exaggerate. The Israeli commission did not look into "war crimes" but checked up strategic and political mistakes done. Again, it was/is an intra-Israeli matter.
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Quoting RJdxer (Reply 46):
Did the media claim that the World Trade Center buildings were knocked down on Tuesday, again on Wednesday, and again on Thursday? Did the media say that President Bush landed and spoke on 4 different aircraft carriers?

the media did NEITHER claim anything above nor similar things about the Israel-Lebanon conflict last year. Different TV-stations however filmed the same wrecked premises. It is well possible that a local TV station in the world got similar films from various suppliers, and so got into the repetition. But your claim that individual media-people on intent filmed the same building several times is an accusation you might discuss with their lawyers. You apparently do not realize that you accuse the media of criminal action.
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You also ought to realize that when we speak about THE media we in reality speak about COMPETING companies, and not about one organisation.
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RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 7:25 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 47):
nor similar things about the Israel-Lebanon conflict last year.

The evidence is quite clear.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 47):
You apparently do not realize that you accuse the media of criminal action.

Yes I do, and they have been accused of such by their own members. Reuters even apologized for carrying doctored photos on their service.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 47):
You also ought to realize that when we speak about THE media we in reality speak about COMPETING companies, and not about one organisation.

In at least one case we are talking about a single photographer who staged a childs death several times over and staged a adult males apparent death.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ5Rj4yBGdU&mode=related&search=
http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2006/08/reuters.html
http://www.maozisrael.org/site/News2...ServSessionIdr006=j5qfsv9a8a.app1a
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/20...ork-times-busted-in-hezbollah.html
http://www.byteland.org/pyro/war_photos_manipulated.html
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Lebanon War Report Faults Olmert

Wed May 02, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 48):
Reuters even apologized for carrying doctored photos on their service.

That indeed is true. Amazing that even Reuters has gone to the sensation-mongers ! But I would NOT declare that to have been the general thing. Even if in such situations, and that DOES include 11Sep01, sensation-mongering leads to strange effects.
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Quoting RJdxer (Reply 48):
we are talking about a single photographer who staged a childs death several times over and staged a adult males apparent death.

such "freelancers" get paid for each contract separately, and the tempation to sell the same pictures to each of the partners may be too much to resist. But to say it again, the point that you can see the same pictures in different "channels/papers" is NOT new but has become a general phenomena since the start of photography. When the reporters want to show the result of war-action they concentrate on the badly damaged areas, they concentrate on dead and heavily wounded. Such is why many chief-editors of serious papers and TV-channels are rather reluctant in regard to provided photo-/film-material, while the boulevard-papers and the sensational channels are far happier to publish such stuff.
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