jfk787nyc
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Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Thu May 03, 2007 11:05 am

Looking over a wikipeida article.. I was wondering if anyone had some more knowledge as to what happened that Israel shot down the plane over Egypt in 1973
 
workflyer
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Thu May 03, 2007 11:20 am

At the time, the Libyan plane had got lost on a flight from Libya to Egypt. It strayed to the East bank of the Nile over the Sinai desert. At the time Israel was occupying the Sinai. They then shot it down. Basically that is it end of story. Attempts to censure Israel were as usual vetoed by the US.
 
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alberchico
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Thu May 03, 2007 11:24 am

Quoting WorkFlyer (Reply 1):
Attempts to censure Israel were as usual vetoed by the US.

to be fair the U.S also accidentally shot down an Iranian Airbus in the late 80's

But getting back to the topic you have to realize that with the military situation at the time right after the 73 war, Israel was on a high state of alert and unfortunetaly that aircraft was at the wrong place at the wrong time. In one of the earlier wars they even attacked by mistake a U.S. navy ship.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Thu May 03, 2007 11:26 am

Quoting WorkFlyer (Reply 1):
Attempts to censure Israel were as usual vetoed by the US.

I saw the topic and was thinking five replies before it got political.

One is a record!

I think this might end up in the Non-Av section or archived here in a few...

Checko
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speedbird747BA
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Thu May 03, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 3):

 checkmark  to Checko!

Cheers,
Kyle
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workflyer
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Thu May 03, 2007 11:41 am

Any country/group that shoots down a civilian airliner should face some recourse, be it the Vincennes event in the Gulf, the Soviets and the Korean Air disaster or the Israelis and the Libyan Air shootdown. There is no excuse for murdering civillians.

By the way there are WAY more cases than these three. For instance in the Zimbabwean war of independence/civil war there was a plane shot down. Or the DHL plane fired upon by Iraqi terrorists. In these instances as wll the people firing the missiles knew they were firing at civillian targets, but did so anyway. Just because they are bereft of morals does not provide them with an excuse to murder or attempt to murder civiliians going about their own business. And if the protaganists are brought to some form of judgement, it is morally corrupt IMHO to come up with a spurious defence (Zimbabwean rebels saying that civillian aircraft are legitimate targets) or rely on a powerful friends (US vetoes of UN sanctions) to bail you out.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Thu May 03, 2007 2:43 pm

Quoting WorkFlyer (Reply 5):
Any country/group that shoots down a civilian airliner should face some recourse, be it the Vincennes event in the Gulf, the Soviets and the Korean Air disaster or the Israelis and the Libyan Air shootdown. There is no excuse for murdering civillians.

 checkmark 

Excellent points, people should be held accountable for their actions, a simple apology wont be enough.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
gkirk
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Thu May 03, 2007 4:05 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 2):
accidentally

Accidentally?  scratchchin 
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LAXspotter
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Thu May 03, 2007 5:00 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 7):
Accidentally?

LOL, we didnt really it was a scheduled passenger airliner,  Yeah sure
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
cedarjet
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Thu May 03, 2007 6:43 pm

It was actually an Air France 727 wetleased to Libyan Arab AL. They realised their mistake and had already turned around and were heading west away from Israel back towards Cairo. Israel shot it down anyway.

Quoting WorkFlyer (Reply 1):
Attempts to censure Israel were as usual vetoed by the US.



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 3):
I saw the topic and was thinking five replies before it got political.

By "political" you mean, "in anyway critical of Israel" - of course it's a political thread! Israel killed more than 100 innocent people and escaped criticism, let alone doing anything to make up for it. Are we supposed to overlook this and say how great Israel is?! Just so it doesn't get "political"?!
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Banco
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Thu May 03, 2007 8:11 pm

Britain came bloody close to shooting one down in the run up to the Falklands War. An Argentine 707 had been monitoring their progress south, and had been warned off. It apparently re-appeared and they were on the verge of opening fire but held back long enough for them to discover it was a routine passenger flight from Brazil.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 4:37 am

More here http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19730221-1 shame that they tried to escape they should
landed in Sinai instead, but easy to be armchair quarterback.
Workflyer, 2 civilian airliners where shot down by Zimbabwean terrorist during the 1970ies.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
OV735
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 5:58 am

I don't get it. According to ASN, the thing happened in broad daylight with Israeli fighters in the air right next to the 727, they could clearly see it was a civilian airliner. And they thought it would "escape"? Escape what? An unwelcome guest leaving, is that a bad thing?

This is just as ridiculous as the Korean Air shoot down.

Regards,
OV735
 
MDorBust
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting OV735 (Reply 12):
... Israeli fighters in the air right next to the 727, they could clearly see it was a civilian airliner.

The fighters are the ones that shot it down with cannon fire after reapeated commands to land and warning shots being fired.

It's a tragedy that was allowed to happen by poor judgement of all parties involved.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
andessmf
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 6:16 am

People, the internet exists to make research a little faster and easier. USE IT before making statements that are not based on facts.

Here are two POVs.

http://www.mathaba.net/info/flight114.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Arab_Airlines_Flight_114

"When the F-4s showed up, the Libyan copilot identified them incorrectly as Egyptian MiGs. When the fighters signaled the airliner, the captain and flight engineer gesticulated angrily about the rudeness of their (supposedly Egyptian) pilots. There are two airfields around Cairo: Cairo East and Cairo West. Cairo East is the international airport, whilst Cairo West is a military air base. The crew thought they have overshot Cairo West and are approaching Cairo East, and interpreted the presence of the (presumed Egyptian) fighters as an escort back to Cairo West.

They began descending towards Refidim, soon realising it was a military air base. They decided it would be a mistake to land there, and started heading back for Cairo West. Shortly after they were fired upon but could not comprehend why, only realising the fighter jets were Israeli shortly before crashing, however the black box recording does not reveal how they incorporated this new fact into their understanding of the situation."

"The United Nations did not to take any action against Israel. The 30 member nations of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) voted to censure Israel for the attack, but the U.S. abstained."
 
cedars747
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):
The 30 member nations of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) voted to censure Israel for the attack, but the U.S. abstained."

And why th US abstained ?

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 7:26 am

How the could mistake a F-4 for a MIG is beyond me, anyways, I think the blame lays at the arrogance of the flight crew if a military plane want something you do as you´re told if you´re a pilot in command of a commercial airliner.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
MDorBust
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 16):
How the could mistake a F-4 for a MIG is beyond me...

"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
workflyer
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 16):
How the could mistake a F-4 for a MIG is beyond me, anyways, I think the blame lays at the arrogance of the flight crew if a military plane want something you do as you´re told if you´re a pilot in command of a commercial airliner.

Why should the Co-pilot have to be versed in recognising the difference between fighter jets in order to understand the intentions of the jet fighters.

Also why should the blame lie with the aircrew of the CIVILIAN airliner only? The pilot of the F4 could see plainly that it was a commercial jet, and it was the cannon fire of the F4 that brought said jet down.

The airliners was heading back to Egypt when it was shot down so it is a mystery as to how the fighter pilot saw an AF 727 (Granted wetleased to Libyan Air) civillian airliner heading to Egypt over a desert as a threat.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 11):
Workflyer, 2 civilian airliners where shot down by Zimbabwean terrorist during the 1970ies

I had forgotten about the second one.
 
andessmf
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 7:53 am

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 16):
I think the blame lays at the arrogance of the flight crew

I don't think so. Unfortunately, this seems to be the typical airplane accident scenario, where if one factor was NOT present, the accident would not have occurred.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 11:16 am

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 15):
And why th US abstained ?

Alex!!!

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Moose135
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting WorkFlyer (Reply 18):
Also why should the blame lie with the aircrew of the CIVILIAN airliner only? The pilot of the F4 could see plainly that it was a commercial jet, and it was the cannon fire of the F4 that brought said jet down.

Because a commercial jet could never pose a threat...you know, like by flying into a building or something.
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PanHAM
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 9:20 pm

The wikipedia article (see - reply 14) gives a clear and neutral summary of what happened.

Important to know is that at this time, Israel was in a state of war with Egypt,with Libya and more or less the rest of the Arab World and all of them tried to erase Israel from the map (some are still on that trip today).

A commerical airliner crew that is intercepted by military jets is well advised to either establish communication or follow
the instructions. The procedures are well known to all pilots. Trying to "escape" is exactly the wrong thing to do. The LN crew had ample time to follow the instructions of the F4sand land at a military base. They did not and they are the ones to blame .
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cedars747
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 10:16 pm

Quoting JFK787NYC (Thread starter):
Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

This was my first shock regarding Israel ! Israel killed MAMA SALWA
I was six years old than,one year after we moved from BUE to wonderfull Paris of the Middle East "By than" BEY.One of my favourite programs was MAMA SALWA and one of the victims was the popular TV personality Salwa Hegazi from Egypt.She use to have a special programme on tv dedicated to kids from all over the Arab world. She was so sweet at everybody loved her.I remember when she died I was chocked and asked myself who is Israel ? why Israel would kill Mama Salwa.

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 23):
why Israel would kill Mama Salwa.

Maybe because there were so many Arab nations trying to kill Mama Golda at that time? And together with her most of the other mammas in Israel?  Yeah sure

Alex (without !!!!)
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
cedars747
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 24):
Maybe because there were so many Arab nations trying to kill Mama Golda at that time? And together with her most of the other mammas in Israel?

It's hard to know the truth.Anyway,I dont care any more ,I lost so many friends and relatives in Lebanon that I get used to it

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Fri May 04, 2007 11:17 pm

Also remember that the Bar-Lev line was something that was heavy fortified and lot of nervous people there, no I still think
that a chain of events led to this, first the Egyptian ATC to the air crew and last IAF, who choose to act.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
OV735
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Sat May 05, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting Moose135 (Reply 21):
Because a commercial jet could never pose a threat...you know, like by flying into a building or something.

I doubt the concept had been invented that long ago. And even if it had, were the Israelis worried that when the 727 turned around it would ram a building in Cairo?
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Sat May 05, 2007 6:19 am

The Israelis shot down 5A-DAH and a Libyan AF Mirage or Mig23 crashed into 5A-DIA in 1992. Can't be too many airlines out there who have lost 727's from the same fleet in these types of events.

I think they only have 5A-DIF / DIH / DII left now.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Sat May 05, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting OV735 (Reply 27):
I doubt the concept had been invented that long ago.



Quote:
The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) were on high alert at the time, because of warnings of guerilla attacks, a plan, the Israelis allege, to hijack a plane and explode it over or crash it into a populated area, such as Tel Aviv, or even the nuclear installations near Dimona.

RTA?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
andessmf
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Sat May 05, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Trying to "escape" is exactly the wrong thing to do. The LN crew had ample time to follow the instructions of the F4sand land at a military base

From the articles it states that the pilots believe, till it was too late, that the fighters were Egyptian. There was also a sandstorm that made for tough visibility. It was all a terrible accident.

I mean, most of us have seen another airplane flying while in the air, and the first couple of times it happened to me I was surprised that I had such a hard time recognizing an airplane from air to air, even when the airplane was relatively close.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Sat May 05, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting OV735 (Reply 12):
This is just as ridiculous as the Korean Air shoot down.

Which one ? Don't forget, the Soviets shot down TWO KAL a/c, the 747 which most people remember in the 80s
(and on which I had a friend), and a 707 in the 70s, which got 'lost' on a flight to, I believe, Paris. In actual fact, I think the KE007 shootdown was a case of mistaken identity made under a lot of pressure. If the Yanks can claim VIncennes was an accident, then they can cut the Russians some slack.

A decent made for TV film on this is "Tailspin", Michael Moriarty, Harris Yulin. Depcits the USAF as knowing what was going and anfd doing nothing and the Soviet area commanders under huge pressure from Moscow.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Sat May 05, 2007 3:21 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 30):

From the articles it states that the pilots believe, till it was too late, that the fighters were Egyptian. There was also a sandstorm that made for tough visibility. It was all a terrible accident.

No excuse. First, a professional pilot should be able to tell a Mig from an F4 Phantom, second, even if it was an Egyptian fighter, if he's telling you to follow, follow him. Ever heard for "friendly fire"?



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 31):

Which one ? Don't forget, the Soviets shot down TWO KAL a/c, the 747 which most people remember in the 80s
(and on which I had a friend), and a 707 in the 70s, wh

No comparison to this case.Sinai was a war situation, Russia was in the times of cold war. Both Korean pilots had been at fault because they made navigational mistakes. However, the 747 that was shot down over Sakhalin was cold blood murder. There was no reason to shoot that plabe down. But that is another discussion..
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OV735
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RE: Israeli Government Shot Down Libyan Airliner 1973

Sun May 06, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):
Quoting OV735 (Reply 27):
I doubt the concept had been invented that long ago.



Quote:
The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) were on high alert at the time, because of warnings of guerilla attacks, a plan, the Israelis allege, to hijack a plane and explode it over or crash it into a populated area, such as Tel Aviv, or even the nuclear installations near Dimona.

RTA?

OK, I stand corrected, the concept had been invented by that time.

Nevertheless, as I understand from the article, the aircraft was far from the possible targets on Israeli soil, and was in fact turning west, i.e. away from their direction, and was then shot. I recognize that tensions were high at the time and my hindsight is probably shallow and uninformed, but I believe that when the alleged threat is visually established as a civilian airliner, downing the threat should be the absolute last resort.

Regards,
OV735

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