Falcon84
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Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Wed May 09, 2007 9:25 pm

Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

In another sign that not all regions of the nation share in this "boom" economy:

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/17...9.htm?source=rss&channel=ohio_news

Another huge blow to the local economy.
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ltbewr
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Wed May 09, 2007 9:47 pm

Yea, and how many jobs are they creating at their Mexico plants, which also make engines as does the Ohio plants. Part of this is due to relocation to Mexico and elsewhere with lower labor and ops costs. Part is also due to the increasing use of computer and other technology, increasing productivity and thus not needing as many workers. I would also note that Ford and other companies had far too many facilities, built for another time, and now rationallizing their ops. It is sad so many good jobs are going, but that is a reality that much like the airline industry, was long overdue. Add to that their declining market share, and Ford had no other realistic choice.
 
N231YE
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Wed May 09, 2007 10:25 pm

I recently got in an argument over another member in another thread about this. I don't care about the Dow going past 13000, unemployment this and that. All those numbers politicians like to boast about cover the entire United States, not the local economy(ies). Just another occurrence to solidify my argument.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 3:18 am

Ford, like GM has a huge problem that is not easily solved.

They have too many managers managing and making piss poor business decisions.

Ford does not have a problem making cheap cars,they have a problem making Quality cars.
Laying off expereinced people, and hiring cheaper labor in a foreign country is not going to solve this problem.

Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW , Hyundai, all have plants in the US. they do not suffere this quality drain.

Ford needs to change how they do things.
The best thing they could do is fire 90% of the management and hire people to do the job the company is supposed to do.

Build cars.

Until this happens, the midwest car building towns will suffer economically.


The US economy is doing great. However ford and GM are mismanaged corporations that screw a lot of local economies. Unfortunately a lot of those local economies are in the same region.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
redngold
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 4:16 am

I hope that some other company will come in and grab the casting plant. Without knowing anything about the plant, it still seems to me that there would be a need for its metal casting capability in other industries as well.
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767Lover
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 2):
All those numbers politicians like to boast about cover the entire United States, not the local economy(ies). Just another occurrence to solidify my argument.

I assume the politicians you are talking about are campaigning for national offices? Well, of course they are going to be focused on the country as a whole and not on local economies. That's what local jurisdictions are for.

If the economy is poor in your area, citizens there need to support candidates who are in favor of 1) growing a diverse economy that isn't susceptible to specific industry downturns, and 2) attracting businesses through the use of creative incentives and improved infrastructure.
 
mt99
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

Who cares if the jobs are shipped out to Mexico IF the company overall benefits. If the company overall benefits it wil benefit the economy as a whole..

Point being in the big picture - the economic impact of these 1200 families might be far less than the benefit it would bring the company by moving jobs elsewhere. If You benefit the company, you benefit stock holders, who in turn benefit from their investments and weatlth is created that way and you benefit the economy.

Far fetched and heartless.. maybe... But in the end these 1200 families may not "matter" to the countries economy as much as a "healthy" Ford...Make sense?
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Slovacek747
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 8:11 am

This is the beauty of Capitalism! Yes I feel bad for the families but this is how things work.. And this has nothing to do with the economy, it has to do with them not being able to say competitive agains foreign brands. If they can't remain competitive then this should happen. An by the way, the ecomony is good, very good. You bone heads need to look at it on a macro level, not a micro one.

Slovacek747
 
dan2002
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting Redngold (Reply 4):
I hope that some other company will come in and grab the casting plant. Without knowing anything about the plant, it still seems to me that there would be a need for its metal casting capability in other industries as well.

Doubt it, Ford may take some of the proprietary castings and tooling, etc and ship them to other plants, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of it wound up being cut up and torn down.
A guy asks 'What's Punk?'. I kick over a trash can and its punk. He knocks over a trash can and its trendy.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 7):
An by the way, the ecomony is good, very good.

Well maybe it's damn skippy where you are, dude, but in our area-and in many areas of the nation-it sucks to high heaven. And when that happens, it isn't the greatest economy of all time, as some ass kissers on here like to proclaim. An all-time great economy doesn't leave huge portions of the nation behind.

So, you can keep chirping on how "good, very good", the economy is, but if 1200 high paying jobs had just left your area, never to return, you'd feel like your region just got reamed over pretty good, wouldn't you. And you wouldn't be preaching to us "boneheads" on how freaking good the economy is.

And, if I sound more than a litte hot at this idiotic crap the above user said, you win the stuffed Mexican auto worker doll.

[Edited 2007-05-10 05:11:48]
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Slovacek747
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 12:40 pm

Them closing down their plant and losing 1200 workers isn't because of the economy FALCON! They are cutting jobs so that they can be competitive and turn a profit. I never said the economy was the best ever...it is very strong though.. not every place is goin to be booming at the same time but on a macro level things are excellent overall. This doesn't mean people won't lose jobs though and I never claimed that.
 
L-188
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 1:09 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
In another sign that not all regions of the nation share in this "boom" economy:

I have to join in with those that say it isn't the economy. It is because the company in question is still trying to run a pension and union system from the 1930's.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
767Lover
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 6:43 pm

I feel for the workers who are losing their jobs. It must be scary to have a very specific set of skills (auto factory) that are not transferrable to anything else.

However, companies are not charities. They cannot operate without efficiency. As someone mentioned earlier, Ford is a long-standing company that has a huge pension roll. That's a great thing, but if you can't sell cars at a certain price to meet your costs something has to give. Now, executive pay is also one bit of "rightsizing" that could be looked at, but that still wouldn't solve the problem.

Perhaps your city should have tried harder to get Ford to stay. Or court other businesses to set up operations. Or offer some kind of job training program for people to expand their skills into another profession.
 
Molykote
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
So, you can keep chirping on how "good, very good", the economy is, but if 1200 high paying jobs had just left your area, never to return, you'd feel like your region just got reamed over pretty good, wouldn't you. And you wouldn't be preaching to us "boneheads" on how freaking good the economy is.



Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):
I have to join in with those that say it isn't the economy. It is because the company in question is still trying to run a pension and union system from the 1930's.



Quoting 767Lover (Reply 12):
I feel for the workers who are losing their jobs. It must be scary to have a very specific set of skills (auto factory) that are not transferrable to anything else.

I also feel for the workers losing their jobs but I can't ignore the fact that this is a matter of these labor groups (referring to the industry as a whole and not just Ford) reaping what they've sown. When times were good for auto workers they received generous compensation and benefits in a secure job - Now that the party is over (after decades of compensation that is disproportionate to their free market value), they are experiencing a disproportionate "crash".

Blame for these circumstances lies as much with Ford as any union. However, in the name of job security and overall company health (i.e. union employee self interest), the auto workers may have been wise to take a greater stake in investments within the Ford company rather than milking every last cent into paycheck compensation.

I don't fault the union employees (or anyone) for seeking as much compensation as possible. However, it's fair to appreciate long term interests in addition to the bottom line paycheck deposit when considering what you are receiving from your employer. A forward thinking union and workforce would realize the vested interest they have in promoting the growth and investment within their company to ensure the best future possible for the company (and all, including union, employees) - It is on this account that so many unions have failed their members over the last few decades. For a parallel closer to my line of work (and the work of many others on these forums), take a look at the cuts that airline pilots and mechancis have experienced in recent years.

In reality, continuing to make subpar products at (globally) noncompetitive wages would not be good for Ford as a whole or its auto worker employees. I make these comments having an uncle who lost his (high paying) job as a foreman at the Norfolk, VA F-150 plant. He has acknowledged all of the problems I mentioned above since beginning his job at Ford. Fortunately, he holds 2 degrees, is well experienced, and has found another job. However, I do realize that many will not be so lucky if they haven't diversified their skill set in order to maintain their value under varying market conditions - This is regrettable and certainly no cause for joy on my part. If something good does come of these job cuts, perhaps it will encourage some people to be more proactive in the management of their careers.

I take no joy in anyone losing their job but, the loss of 1,200 jobs in one city isn't a massive blow to the macro economy (especially if some long term good comes of it).

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

Considering the backlash of September 11, 2001 I am very satisfied (and even a bit proud) of how the country has managed to recover.

Unemployment History:
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/Surv...t_action=wh&graph_name=LN_cpsbref3

Total Employment:
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/Surv...t_action=wh&graph_name=CE_cesbref1

Average Hourly Earnings:
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/Surv...t_action=wh&graph_name=CE_cesbref3

Employment Productivity:
http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/Surv...t_action=wh&graph_name=PR_lprbrief

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
In another sign that not all regions of the nation share in this "boom" economy:

Every region will not be growing at the same rate at all (or even most) times. Apart from the usual hot air blown by politicians, what would make you expect otherwise? Don't tell me you take the word of the "best economy in the history of the universe" incumbent politicians at face value - Likewise, don't tell me you actually believe the "we'll soon be standing in bread lines" pitch of challengers. The truth will always be somewhere in the middle - but this doesn't mean that the large majority of our country is not feeling the positive effects of our strong economy.

These job cuts in Cleveland do not mean that the vast majority of regions in the nation aren't doing well. Although not all individuals/cities/regions will share equally in economic growth, this doesn't mean that regions with less impressive economic numbers haven't benefited on the whole from the strong overall economy.
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Pope
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

Is Ford closing this plant indicative of a problem with the economy or a problem with Ford?

I guess in your mind it is government's job to keep inefficient, uncompetitive plants open just to preserve the jobs. Didn't someone else try that? Oh yeah, the USSR gave that philosophy a try.

This plant is closing because it cannot compete in the global market place. Ford's managment failed here not the government.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

So while overall the economy is doing well, by your reasoning because one poorly managed company that has made a mile long string of mistakes for the last quarter century dumping 1200 unskilled or semi-skilled workers is a sign the economy is actually bad.

You are trying to make a judgement on the big picture by looking at one pixel. In any economy there are winners, and there are losers. Just like in a few years when the economy is in a downturn there will be companies doing really really well, while most will be losing.

A good day in the stock market is a day when there are more winners than losers. For the most part, that is what we have right now- more winners than losers.
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767Lover
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 11:21 pm

If you really want to see a community that COULD have had it bad, consider Hapeville, GA -- home of not only a dying Ford plant, but also Delta's world headquarters. If Delta had gone under or had been absorbed by US Airways, that town would have taken a noticeable hit.

(Mind you, Hapeville "melds" into other ATL-area cities, so people would have migrated to other jobs in the area, but still...it was an interesting thing to consider when DL was in Chapter 11.)
 
ORFflyer
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):
It is because the company in question is still trying to run a pension and union system from the 1930's.

Exactly. We just lost the F150 Assembly plant here in Norfolk, VA. Over 2000 jobs. While it certainly will be felt a little bit, no way that 2000 jobs make, or break the local economy in this area. And 1200 jobs shouldn't put Cleveland in turmoil. If it does, Cleveland has a bunch more problems than Ford closing a plant.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 13):
I also feel for the workers losing their jobs but I can't ignore the fact that this is a matter of these labor groups (referring to the industry as a whole and not just Ford) reaping what they've sown.

 checkmark 

Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
This plant is closing because it cannot compete in the global market place. Ford's management failed here not the government.

 checkmark 
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Thu May 10, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 3):
They have too many managers managing

Not true. Ford has cut, and cut and cut their management staff. Just take a look at the Metro Detroit area!

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 3):
Ford does not have a problem making cheap cars,they have a problem making Quality cars.

The quality of Ford and the other American manufacturers has improved greatly, and is on par with their Japanese and european competition. It is no longer a question of quality, but rather the misconception that American cars are the same as they were in the 70's & '80's.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):
. It is because the company in question is still trying to run a pension and union system from the 1930's.

Spot on, this is the biggest problem facing Ford, GM and many other "legacy" firms.
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falstaff
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Fri May 11, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 3):
They have too many managers managing and making piss poor business decisions.

They may have to many managers, but they also have too many lazy employees. I know several Ford UAW workers and they are the laziest people I ever met. They brag about not going to work, showing up late, drunk, stoned, etc and not being fired. Try to fire a UAW member. By and large most UAW people are great employees who do a great job, but a few bad apples can screw up an entire organization. I usually go to a bar near the Rouge plant on Thursdays and there are several people in there drinking who are clocked in on Ford's time. You have to cure that culture before you can build a quality car and truck.

I worked for Ford doing warranty claims analysis. In 2000 some of our plants in Mexico had lower warranty costs than the US plants.

In Mexico you can afford to hire the best. If you slack off on the job there are 100 people ready to take your job. In Detroit the only way to get hired is if you know somebody. It is almost impossible to get fired. The person who is best for the job may never even get a chance to get hired.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 18):
The quality of Ford and the other American manufacturers has improved greatly, and is on par with their Japanese and european competition. It is no longer a question of quality, but rather the misconception that American cars are the same as they were in the 70's & '80's.

Americans can build great cars. Today's cars are can't even compare to the 70s and 80s models.

Car companies, US ones especially, squeeze suppliers to get every last penny out of a part. For example. Lets say your turn signal switch breaks on your six month old car. That part was probably not my by the company who built the car. It was built by a supplier who at one time may have been part of the company it sells to. People will knock on the car company for building a faulty part, but it was actually the suppliers fault.

I have a friend who worked in warranty parts for Visteon. He specialized in instrument clusters. They saw tons of Ford clusters, but hardly any Honda clusters, some of which were built in the same plant. The Honda clusters had less cost cutting and the quality showed.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 18):
Not true. Ford has cut, and cut and cut their management staff. Just take a look at the Metro Detroit area!

Exactly. Back when I worked for Ford, the white collar guys in my office would love to have had the pay and benefits of the UAW guys. Many of the white collar jobs are really supplier jobs. Many people who "work" at Ford don't really work there. Many thousands in Dearborn really work for TAC, Kelly, EDS, etc. When you don't really work for who you work for and can be fired without cause or notice (yes legal in Michigan for contractors) what real incentive do you have to do a great job. Nearly all of Ford, GM, and Chrysler contractors are in Michigan, because the laws protecting those workers is so weak. For as good as the UAW have it the contractors have it bad. If the UAW wants to grow it should try to organize the contractors.
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Alessandro
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Fri May 11, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 3):
Ford, like GM has a huge problem that is not easily solved.

They have too many managers managing and making piss poor business decisions.

Ford does not have a problem making cheap cars,they have a problem making Quality cars.
Laying off expereinced people, and hiring cheaper labor in a foreign country is not going to solve this problem.

Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW , Hyundai, all have plants in the US. they do not suffere this quality drain.

Ford needs to change how they do things.
The best thing they could do is fire 90% of the management and hire people to do the job the company is supposed to do.

Build cars.

Until this happens, the midwest car building towns will suffer economically.


The US economy is doing great. However ford and GM are mismanaged corporations that screw a lot of local economies. Unfortunately a lot of those local economies are in the same region.

I beg you a pardon, doing great?
Why is the US$ so low and budget deficit running wild?
Cars are hardly hi-tech industry nowadays, in europe Slovakia is one of the top car manufacturer, trying to compete on price
is hardly the thing GM and Ford can do, rather by brand recognition like Lexus.
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Pope
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Fri May 11, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 20):
Why is the US$ so low and budget deficit running wild?

Repeat after me. The US Government favors a weak US$. It makes our exports more attractive and makes imports more expensive.

As for the budget deficit, take a look at an article published just today http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8P1MC7O2&show_article=1. The US fiscal deficit shrank by $100B dollars in the first seven months of the fiscal year (the government's fiscal year starts Oct 1) over the same period in 2005_2006.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
Slovacek747
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Fri May 11, 2007 5:35 am

Actually the budget deficit is decreasing by percentage of GDP (not actual money spent) You can't base our economy off of the deficity because the economy is still doing really well overall. There is no proof at this point that our deficit is actually hurting us.. It may in the future but at this point it isn't really having an effect. We just discussed this at school (university level let me remind you) so don't go blowing me out of the water saying im full of $hit.

Thank you,
Slovacek747
 
N231YE
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Fri May 11, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting Molykote (Reply 13):

Molykote, I appreciate your very thoughtful response. Unlike other people in this thread, you pretty much nailed it on the spot. I realize that many things add up to this, but still, so many jobs are moving out of the Cleveland area, its pathetic.

To add to this thread, many are saying "Oh, 1200 jobs isn't much." Well, I invite those people to do a quick search of major Job loss in the Cleveland Area. To name a Few in the past (no more than 5 years):

Ford...Loarin assembly plant
Hoover Vacuum (soon to be shut down this fall)
Invacare
LTV (shed off many jobs when it went into bankruptcy, even after the ISG acquisition (now Mittal), many of those jobs were never replaced)
Lorain, Ohio lost many steel jobs not too long ago

Yeah, the list adds up...

The others also say, "oh well there are many new jobs opening up here and there...that often aren't advertised"

Firstly, an $60k/year job down to a $7/hr janitorial job is NOT a replacement
And secondly, 1200 jobs (not counting the others) is a huge job displacement....college and retraining is expensive, so good luck to those who go on to spend major $$ trying to get a new job, let alone, a career.
 
piercey
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Fri May 11, 2007 9:37 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
Well maybe it's damn skippy where you are, dude, but in our area-and in many areas of the nation-it sucks to high heaven.



Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 10):
They are cutting jobs

 redflag 

I believe those jobs will still be out there. If not by ford's new casting plant, then by a distributer.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 12):
Perhaps your city should have tried harder to get Ford to stay.

Tried that.

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 12):
Or court other businesses to set up operations.

HA! In Brook Park?

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 12):
Or offer some kind of job training program for people to expand their skills into another profession.

Listen, that all sounds good on paper, but Brook Park just turned into Broke Park. Anyone working for Brook Park can kiss there job or paycheck good bye.

Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
Is Ford closing this plant indicative of a problem with the economy or a problem with Ford?

Both. Yeah, Ford's in the shitter, but have you seen what has happened to CLE after 9/11. Hell, the warning signs were coming before then.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 17):
And 1200 jobs shouldn't put Cleveland in turmoil. If it does, Cleveland has a bunch more problems than Ford closing a plant.

CLE has problems, period. Who this REALLY hurts is Brook Park, as the plants were a HUGE source of tax income for.

Oh, and before someone plays the (insert foreign car company here) is building cars in the US card, go look up the laws on tariffs on foreign autos and tell me if you see a nice convenient loophole.

piercey in CLE  mad 
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
GuitrThree
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sat May 12, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

In another sign that not all regions of the nation share in this "boom" economy:

As usual, you once again use one example of a bad situation to blast Bush. Typical. Typical. Typical.

Let's look at the truth. Ford is suffering because they are making junk. The only thing they make reasonably popular in the car market is the Mustang. They do have a strong presence in the truck market, but with rising gas prices, truck sales are down.

Also, let's consider, the plant is, and I'm sorry to say, one of the worst places to live in America. Rust-belt, old city filled with also-ran overpaid union workers, located in the heart of the snow belt. A dying city, no doubt.

Funny, as usual, you simply "forget" to mention that other car makers are sprouting up all over the US. Benz and BMW are building plants in the SE. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are opening plants also, mainly, in the SE. In fact, Nashville just this year, is opening up the new HQ of Nissan USA, bringing 1500 high paying corporate jobs here.

Oh yea.. wait, you did mention that "regions" of the nation thing...

How about this Falcon, maybe if you equate the "regions" of the US that are doing bad to their link of Union membership, you will find your answer, and it has nothing to do with GWB, but the fact that smart CEO's are locating plants in warmer climates that have better transportation systems, much better tax structures for not only the companies, but their employees, and much better reasonable non-union employees that actually care more about the company and their job than their overly inflated egos where they think they it's their right earn 8 hours of pay for 4 hours of work.

[Edited 2007-05-12 00:51:13]
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N231YE
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sat May 12, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 25):
but their employees, and much better reasonable non-union employees that actually care more about the company and their job than their overly inflated egos where they think they it's their right earn 8 hours of pay for 4 hours of work.

What a load of Bullcrap...

My father is unionized, and actually cares about the company he works for. So much, he was back-stabbed and f*cked over by a former employer. Same thing with several of my father's friends and bosses, same thing with my own friends from my past years in high school, etc.

Uncle and Grandfather also unionized.

Maybe this talk of inflated egos runs around in the auto industry, but it certainly does not in Construction.

And by the way, my father's current employer has been requested by several states and companies as the sole contractor to do work, because they have built and can build large projects much faster, and in the long run, cheaper, than any scab outfit has/could.
 
piercey
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sat May 12, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 25):
As usual, you once again use one example of a bad situation to blast Bush.

Where did he bash Bush?

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 25):
Ford is suffering because they are making junk.

You haven't driven a Fusion, have you?

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 25):
Funny, as usual, you simply "forget" to mention that other car makers are sprouting up all over the US

see:

Quoting Piercey (Reply 24):

Oh, and before someone plays the (insert foreign car company here) is building cars in the US card, go look up the laws on tariffs on foreign autos and tell me if you see a nice convenient loophole.



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 25):

Oh yea.. wait, you did mention that "regions" of the nation thing...

Yeah, he did. And I love that Union region thing. It's all the same union.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 25):
but the fact that smart CEO's are locating plants in warmer climates that have better transportation systems,

CLE transportation is junk? Last I checked the airport is still nice and DTW is only 3-4 hours away. And the warmer climates? Last I checked, there is still a Jeep plant in Toledo and 2 GM plants in the state, not to mention the two smaller engine plants will still remain open that are next to the casting plant. The casting plant just had more jobs...

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 25):
and much better reasonable non-union employees that actually care more about the company and their job than their overly inflated egos where they think they it's their right earn 8 hours of pay for 4 hours of work.

Again, isn't it the same union if you're staying in the US?

piercey in CLE  Sad
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lincoln
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sat May 12, 2007 10:37 am

K. On one hand I feel sorry for the affected employees and sorry to hear about 1200+ jobs leaving the local marketplace, but as I recently said in another (unrelated) thread:

I'm a liberal conservative or (maybe a conservative liberal) ... While some people may not react positively to the statement, I agree. It's economic darwinism and for a healthy economy it's critical: Those businesses that can survive in the marketplace do, they're profitable, create employment, and provide a needed product/service. Those businsses that can't survive in the marketplace go out of business (or close their ineffecient operations) and release the resources that they're using ineffeciently (people, real estate, etc.) for use by other businesses.

While Cleveland's old-economy heavy manufacturing industries (steel, automaking) certainly aren't doing that well Cleveland's economy as far as healthcare, financial services, and technology are concerned is raging. -- Two of the four largest employers in the sate of Ohio are headquartered in Cleveland (they are #2 and #4 -- the Cleveland Clinic Health System and University Hospitals Health System, respectively). Of the leading manucacturing employers, 5 of the top 25 are headquartered in the greater Cleveland area and many of the others have significant facilities in or around Cleveland.

3 of the top 8 financial services employers in the sate of Ohio are headquartered in Cleveland (National City (13,000 employees), Progressive Corp (10,000 employees), and KeyCorp (9,000 employees). Cincinnati has one company on the list, Columbus has 2, and the remaining 2 are headquartered outside state of Ohio).

Clevealnd also has a respectable showing on the list of leading university employers, though not nearly as significant as the previous accomplishments.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 18):
The quality of Ford and the other American manufacturers has improved greatly, and is on par with their Japanese and european competition. It is no longer a question of quality, but rather the misconception that American cars are the same as they were in the 70's & '80's.

This is true. My next car won't be an American brand, but it will be American designed and manufactured unless something radical changes; not because of quality -- my 1998 Mercury Tracer has 128,000 miles and aside from tires, breaks, an alternator, and a couple turn signal lamps I don't have anything to complain about. Not a single American car, however, with the possible exception of the Saturn Skyy even come close to appealing to me -- they all look almost exactly the same (in one of three exciting [yawn] styles "Car", "Minivan" or "Truck/SUV"). Adding to that is the whole multibrand BS -- so in addition to having dozens of otherwise identical looking cars, there's the "Ford" or "Mercury" or "Lincoln" (Or "GM", "Chevy", and "Pontiac") version of exactly the same car to wade through.

The BMW Z4 is a unique vehicle (I don't recall seeing the "Mini 4") and was designed by an American, and every single one of them is built in the US, using dozens of US-sourced parts by a skilled non-uniion workforce. If Ford, GM, or DiamlerChrysler offered something similar in its unique design, I would certainly consider it (and, in fact, I have considered the Sky but decided against it) but I think they're too stuck in their "You can have it any color you want as long as it's black" ways.

This is, of course, just my $0.02

Lincoln
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GuitrThree
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sat May 12, 2007 12:13 pm

Quoting N231YE (Reply 26):
What a load of Bullcrap...

Really?

Then explain why non-union plants are building better quality vehicles here in the states.. Nissan, Honda, and Toyota all have employees beating their doors down to work there, while they are expanding and selling more and more vehicles every year.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 26):
My father is unionized, and actually cares about the company he works for. So much, he was back-stabbed and f*cked over by a former employer. Same thing with several of my father's friends and bosses, same thing with my own friends from my past years in high school, etc.

And that sounds straight out of the union play book...

Quoting N231YE (Reply 26):
And by the way, my father's current employer has been requested by several states and companies as the sole contractor to do work,

Oh really? States, by law, can't "request" companies. They have to, by law, take bids... BS, I say... You're talking out of your ass here..

Quoting Piercey (Reply 27):
Where did he bash Bush?

It's Falcon. He has, on more than one occasion, stated that this economy that everyone on the right is giving credit to Bush's tax cuts, is built on a housing bubble that's about to burst. Sorry Piercey, but Falcon gets up every day and looks at the paper just hoping to read negative stories about the economy just so he can run here and post it. He is Anti-Bush, Anti-Republicn, and Anti-Conservative, and anything that hurts Bush, no matter who else it hurts, is good in his mind. I'm sorry if you didn't see the obvious fact. If you're so blind to see that, then I'll point out something equally obvious... Look to the east in the morning, the sun will rise from that side of the earth.

Quoting Piercey (Reply 27):
You haven't driven a Fusion, have you?

No, I haven't.. And based on sales numbers, I'm not alone. Sorry if you don't agree, but while the Fusion might just be the next car of the century, but no one is buying them.

Quoting Piercey (Reply 27):
CLE transportation is junk?

You don't really know anything about transportation, do you? Where do parts from Japan and Mexico and China arrive? Certainly not via Lake Erie...

Getting parts to Cleveland is hell. Getting Cars out of Cleveland is worse, especially in the Winter. Parts of the South, East, and West, all have major advantages in the transportation industry over Cleveland. And besides that, tolls in and around ILL, OHIO, and other states all are negatives when it comes to trucking parts and cars.
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N231YE
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sat May 12, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 29):
Then explain why non-union plants are building better quality vehicles here in the states.. Nissan, Honda, and Toyota all have employees beating their doors down to work there, while they are expanding and selling more and more vehicles every year.

Ummm...isn't it already been discussed that the big three's quality has improved greatly in the past several years. So much that Consumer Reports has ranked many American autos above that of Asian autos. Its public perception. And, non-union workers are paid less, which is why the Big Asian Three have non-union workers.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 29):
Oh really? States, by law, can't "request" companies. They have to, by law, take bids... BS, I say... You're talking out of your ass here..

Maybe you might want to contact the state of Indiana...While by law, bids are required, Indiana has stated that they like my father's company, and want them to do other projects too. Does not imply that they will get every job (as they may not be the lowest bidder), but the state of Indiana certainly wants them too. Oh, and did I mention, the State of Ohio has stated that my fathers company finished a large project way ahead of schedule, saving the state money. Yep, that 100% Union pride.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 29):
And that sounds straight out of the union play book...

And you sound like a typical full-of-it Republican, sleeping with Big Business and greedy over-paid executives as usual  sarcastic 

[Edited 2007-05-12 14:38:07]
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sat May 12, 2007 10:26 pm

I think within a 4-5 years Ford will essentially be building their European-market models in the USA. That means the next-generation Fiesta, the replacement for the European Ford Focus, S-Max and its related Galaxy model, and possibly even the Mondeo will be built here. Ford will likely cut back truck production, selling only to people who prove they need such a vehicle.
 
F9Widebody
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 4:53 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
The US Government favors a weak US$. It makes our exports more attractive and makes imports more expensive.

Doesn't have a huge impact when China keeps the value of the RMB fixed.
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RJdxer
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

Ok, but the numbers speak for themselves.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
In another sign that not all regions of the nation share in this "boom" economy:

Not all regions shared in the boom economy of the '90s either. Probably the last time all sectors of the country shared a boom economy was in the late '40s and the '50s.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Another huge blow to the local economy.

Any one who looks at that casting plant can't help but notice it's a little dated. It was already old when I was a kid. Anyone who couldn't see it days were numbered a decade ago, or more, was fooling themselves. I'd be more worried about the shape of downtown. The place is almost deserted. Last time we were down there after 5pm when there was no baseball, basketball, or concert happening it was like something from a '50's horror film where radiation has killed everyone off. It reminded me of the '65-80 era when Cleveland was just a wasteland. Unfortunately Cleveland politics does not go out of their way to attract new buisness. I think George Vonivich was the last good mayor Cleveland had.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):
Part of this is due to relocation to Mexico and elsewhere with lower labor and ops costs.

Where in the new article does it say that? The news article states that the plant in Lima can produce what they need, Lima is a long way from the Mexican border.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 3):
Laying off expereinced people, and hiring cheaper labor in a foreign country is not going to solve this problem.

Those experienced people will have bumping rights at the Lima plant. Again, where does it say they are sending the work to a foriegn country?

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 3):
Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW , Hyundai, all have plants in the US. they do not suffere this quality drain

And their assembly plants in this country are at least 50-60 years newer than the casting plant in question. The associated technology that helps operate them at lower cost is in place as well.

Quoting Redngold (Reply 4):
I hope that some other company will come in and grab the casting plant.

I hope they tear the thing down and bulldoze the land flat. What a perfect place for another new runway for CLE.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
N231YE
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 33):
I hope they tear the thing down and bulldoze the land flat. What a perfect place for another new runway for CLE.

 checkmark  I like your idea. The only problem is that the city of Cleveland is so broke, if they can't afford to extend a current runway a few 1000 feet, I don't think a full 11000X150 would be possible. But I am sure a runway over the current Ford plant would permit a separation far enough from the other parallels to allow for simultaneous operations.
 
RJdxer
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 34):
The only problem is that the city of Cleveland is so broke, if they can't afford to extend a current runway a few 1000 feet, I don't think a full 11000X150 would be possible.

They don't have to build the runway right now, mainly becaue they don't even need it, but they need to get that land. Land has been the major source of airport growth restriction since the '50s at CLE.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 34):
But I am sure a runway over the current Ford plant would permit a separation far enough from the other parallels to allow for simultaneous operations.

That was my thinking exactly. It would also leave plenty of room for a new terminal so the current mutant terminal could be mecifully imploded and turned into new break water out in the lake. It would also leave the IX center alone which is something the city will need in future years even if they don't realize it now.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 3):
The US economy is doing great.

It isn't here, and that's the point I was making. It is TERRIBLE here. It isn't just Ford, but, as listed, this area has been killed with lost jobs since 2004.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 6):
Who cares if the jobs are shipped out to Mexico IF the company overall benefits. If the company overall benefits it wil benefit the economy as a whole..

Americans should care. All Americans. Because if such high-paying jobs keep getting shipped to other nations, or lost altogether, and those who lose their jobs end up getting new jobs that pay a lot less, then the buying power of the American consumer will keep getting sapped, and force more and more Americans into debt. Eventually, Americans won't be able to even buy the products made in other nations, simply because the earning and purchasing power of the American people will have dried up, along with those well-paying jobs.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 25):
As usual, you once again use one example of a bad situation to blast Bush. Typical. Typical. Typical.

Never mentioned the president once, did I? I am not blamiing him for this. Not at all. But it shows, again, that this "great" economy isn't being shared in by a large number of Americans. it may be great for some, but I'll wager that for most of those in the middle class, the benefits aren't there.

Again, i think it's your paranoia that made you put out that sentence. Not everything is the fault of President Bush. Only a fool would say that. But the point is, again, that this is not as great an economy as many of you want the world to believe it is.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 33):
Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Ah, yes, someone tell me again how this is the greatest economic upturn in ages.

Ok, but the numbers speak for themselves.

If you mean Wall Street, big deal. Not all Americans benefit from The Street. If they did, then you wouldn't have many areas in a deep economic recession, as is the case in Northeast Ohio and Eastern Michigan.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 33):
I think George Voinovich was the last good mayor Cleveland had.

He was simply a corporate ass-kisser. When he was mayor, everything was the problem of the city council; when he was Governor, everythng was the problem of the cities, counties and the state legislature; now that he's a Senator, everything is the probloem of the states. He's a lassise-faire economics, do-nothing Senator. He's worthless.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
RichPhitzwell
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 11:51 am

I feel for the people, but Ford and GM should probably die. Actually more accurately, our government should make it clear that we will not bail them out.

Why do I state this? This has been an ongoing battle since the 70's and we continue to bail these companies out in one form or another while they improve, but they do not improve to the point needed to compete with Toyota.

This is one time that I agree with free trade almost completely. As stated, Toyota owns and operates factories here and they find ways to make large profits for 30+ years now.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 12:23 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

It's no secret manufacturing jobs are disappearing from the US as either A) those jobs are replaced by robots or B) those jobs move to Mexico and other countries where the labor is cheaper. The US economy is moving from providing manufactured items to providing services.


How many times does it have to be stated? The purpose of a company is not to provide jobs but to turn a profit.


Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
If you mean Wall Street, big deal. Not all Americans benefit from The Street

The smart ones who properly invest do. And you don't have to be part of the wealthiest of the wealthy to benefit from the Street. My parents have been investing with mutual funds since early on in their careers. Overall, the market has continued to rise since beginning those investments (minus the major hits we took in the period following 9/11). If people would properly manage their income (like not spending it on things they don't really need), they might be able to invest in the stock market and see the benefits from it.

Quoting RichPhitzwell (Reply 37):
This is one time that I agree with free trade almost completely. As stated, Toyota owns and operates factories here and they find ways to make large profits for 30+ years now.

  
Do these same people whine for the Japanese Labor Force being affected when Toyota builds a plant over here? Probably not.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
The Street. If they did, then you wouldn't have many areas in a deep economic recession, as is the case in Northeast Ohio and Eastern Michigan.

And again: we can point to manufacturing being a slowing industry in the US. It's the same here in North Carolina, except with textiles instead of automobiles. Burlingotn, NC is seeing significant hits. But other industries (mostly service) are moving into the area to pick up the slack.

[Edited 2007-05-13 05:32:32]
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
RJdxer
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
If you mean Wall Street, big deal. Not all Americans benefit from The Street. If they did, then you wouldn't have many areas in a deep economic recession, as is the case in Northeast Ohio and Eastern Michigan.

It's not just Wall Street. You may wish to believe that the middle class is doing worse but the numbers don't support that. Please identify those "many" areas in deep economic recession other than northeast Ohio and eastern Michigan.
BTW all Americans do benefit from Wall Street because of some Americans did not invest in American companies you truly would have a depression only it would be nationwide.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
He was simply a corporate ass-kisser.

Name a Mayor of Cleveland since 1960 that did more to bring business and prestige to the city of Cleveland.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 38):
How many times does it have to be stated? The purpose of a company is not to provide jobs but to turn a profit.

Eventually, if all decent wage jobs are gone, no company can turn a profit, if the populace cannot afford to buy it's products.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 40):
Eventually, if all decent wage jobs are gone, no company can turn a profit, if the populace cannot afford to buy it's products.

No. That's just it. Those "decent wage" jobs just move from industy to industry as the national and global economy change. Those companies' products will be bought by people working for other companies paying decent wages in other industries.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
L-188
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 12:56 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 33):
And their assembly plants in this country are at least 50-60 years newer than the casting plant in question. The associated technology that helps operate them at lower cost is in place as well.

And that is a major factor. While you can retrofit a building to build new cars more efficently, it isn't going to be as efficent as a new factory. And you figure that plants had to be retro-fitted every 10 years and new vehicles where produced in those plants.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
Because if such high-paying jobs keep getting shipped to other nations, or lost altogether, and those who lose their jobs end up getting new jobs that pay a lot less, then the buying power of the American consumer will keep getting sapped, and force more and more Americans into debt.

I definately lost you with the last sentence, because that is a spending problem, not a job problem. Most people aren't willing to adjust their lifestyles. There are no 1 car families, they need the PS3 for the kids, who can't share a room ect ect ect.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 36):
He was simply a corporate ass-kisser.

You know if you want to attract new industries to your community you might need a guy who can kiss a little ass. I don't know him at all, but buisness generally don't move to towns where they won't be well treated. That is why all those new car plants where set up where they are. The community councils couldn't kiss their asses hard enough.
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jcs17
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 7:05 pm

And commercial and residential starts are still going strong in Dallas... Fuck, when was the last time 1200 jobs were generated in Cleveland? When the word "negro" was still socially acceptable?
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Dougloid
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 40):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 38):
How many times does it have to be stated? The purpose of a company is not to provide jobs but to turn a profit.

Eventually, if all decent wage jobs are gone, no company can turn a profit, if the populace cannot afford to buy it's products.

Henry Ford knew that. Good paying jobs are the best social program for growth and development of community wide wealth there is. Lincoln knew that too. Money spent at home stays in circulation in the local economy. If we buy from offshore, it goes away and never does us any good thereafter.

Charity begins at home and not half a world away among strangers.

Every dollar you spend is a political act. It's a vote on the kind of world you want your kids to inherit.

Brother Dave of the National Catholic Rural Life Conference talks about eating as a moral act. What you do with your money is a moral and political act. You don't live isolated from your fellows any more. It's a global village whether you like it or not.

How do you implement this? Get off the credit card debt funded consumer lifestyle, because it's poison and servitude. Buy from local farmers and sellers of the things you need and want. Buy on the secondary market. Go to garage sales and auctions. Never pay retail. Rebuild an engine. Fix something. Take a class. Make pottery. Learn to cook. Plant a garden. Start a home business (I have two). Run your diesel Rabbit on fryer grease. Do for yourself instead of doing for the banks.

Like the old folks used to say during the war "Use it up-wear it out-make it do, or do without."

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If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Sun May 13, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 43):
Fuck, when was the last time 1200 jobs were generated in Cleveland? When the word "negro" was still socially acceptable?

Therein lies the voice of absolute, abject ignorance on a level that is amazing in 2007. There are and have been jobs created in the Cleveland area. CO went from employing about 100 people to over 3000 people here; the Cleveland Clinic, University Health System and others have created jobs in the health care field. It isn't like there hasn't been jobs created.

But in the area, the outflow of high paying industrial jobs has been staggering over the last few years. Very staggering. Approaching over 5000 jobs lost in that time frame.

Then again, coming from you Jcs, I am certainly not surprised. It just proves what I've always thought about you, and your lack of real-world common sense.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Mon May 14, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 45):
But in the area, the outflow of high paying industrial jobs has been staggering over the last few years. Very staggering. Approaching over 5000 jobs lost in that time frame.

Then again, coming from you Jcs, I am certainly not surprised. It just proves what I've always thought about you, and your lack of real-world common sense.

Funny that you're telling him he lacks real-world common sense when you can't seem to figure out that the manufacturing side of the economy in the US is slowly fading away due to both outsourcing and technology; giving way to the service industry. Obviously this means those areas of the country that have relied heavily on manufacturing are going to see hits as the national and global economy change unless they adapt to the changing national and global economy. North Carolina is figuring this out, as the state has lost many jobs due to the textile industries going overseas but seeing new company in other industries coming in.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Mon May 14, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 46):
Funny that you're telling him he lacks real-world common sense when you can't seem to figure out that the manufacturing side of the economy in the US is slowly fading away due to both outsourcing and technology; giving way to the service industry.

Oh, I've figured it out, dude. And those service jobs, on average, pay a hell of a lot less than the industrial jobs; there are fewer benefits. The jobs aren't as good, and that's why, if we keep losing such jobs, instead of working to improve our industrial base, eventually people won't make enough money to buy that Ford made in Mexico.

Yes, there are cutting edge new industries, and Cleveland has some of those jobs in the Medical profession especially. But those jobs are usually being developed far slower than the industrial jobs leaving the area, hence Northeast Ohio is feeling the weight of such large number of lost jobs.

And it's not like all the workers there are in their 50's and 60's, and toward the end of their days as workers. There are younger workers losing their jobs, too, and the jobs they'll retrain for will, more than likely, pay less, and have less benefits, putting them and their families at an economic disadvantage.

I've figured it out, friend. As someone PM'd me earlier, many on here haven't figured out that there are large sectors of this nation that aren't feeling the sunshine of this "great" economy. And, that being so, the economy isn't so great for more people than they'd care to admit.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Pope
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Mon May 14, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 45):
Therein lies the voice of absolute, abject ignorance on a level that is amazing in 2007. There are and have been jobs created in the Cleveland area. CO went from employing about 100 people to over 3000 people here; the Cleveland Clinic, University Health System and others have created jobs in the health care field. It isn't like there hasn't been jobs created.

So if each one of these jobs you cite to are private sector employers how is the government responsible either for the job creation or their loss? Government helps business best by staying out of its way.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 45):
But in the area, the outflow of high paying industrial jobs has been staggering over the last few years. Very staggering. Approaching over 5000 jobs lost in that time frame.

Again, one needs to examine why those types of jobs are leaving. Basic economic leads one to the conclusion that competitive advantage between nations leads to a more rational allocation of resources. If one unit of labor costs 0.5x in Country B and 1.0x in Country A, as long as the quality of the labor is equivalent, the MARKET will drive production from Country A to Country B.

America's future is not in large scale highly price competitive industrial production.

Workers can either accept that truth and make sure they have the skills to compete in a global market place for labor or suffer the consequences for not doing so.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
charlienorth
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RE: Ford Dumping 1200 Jobs In Cleveland

Mon May 14, 2007 3:17 am

Gotta agree with Falcon on this one (sorry Falcon)the whole concept of a service economy sounds good,but really how long can we exist flipping burgers and processing paper for each other? I've even heard an economist saying growing food in our country is no longer necessary! Just look at the mess with the pet food,our desire for cheap s$%t is what's killing us.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it

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