tz757300
Posts: 2726
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:21 am

Hezbollah Comes To The West

Fri May 11, 2007 7:04 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17874369/

"CIUDAD DEL ESTE, Paraguay - The Iranian-backed Hezbollah militia has taken root in South America, fostering a well-financed force of Islamist radicals boiling with hatred for the United States and ready to die to prove it, according to militia members, U.S. officials and police agencies across the continent."

Well, this may be another reason to keep the idea of attacking Iran on the back burner. It's becoming more an more dangerous.

This quote scares me quite frankly..

“If he attacks Iran, in two minutes Bush is dead,” Meri said. “We are Muslims. I am Hezbollah. We are Muslims, and we will defend our countries at any time they are attacked.”

What are your thoughts?
LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Fri May 11, 2007 7:13 am

Quoting TZ757300 (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts?

But, but, but... The hezzies are just a political party in Lebanon. They aren't funded/supported/trained by Iran and surely aren't a terrorist group...

Or at least that's what we were told during their little war with Israel.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Fri May 11, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting TZ757300 (Thread starter):
Well, this may be another reason to keep the idea of attacking Iran on the back burner. It's becoming more an more dangerous.

Cower in fear .. what choice do we have. Unfortunately it is happening .. their is no reason why the anti American forces is South America would not welcome the Islamists with open arms.

If someone asked you a logical question like .. do you believe Hugo would let Hezbollah train in his country ? How could you not say Yes ?
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
baylorairbear
Posts: 2841
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:25 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Fri May 11, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 2):
Cower in fear .. what choice do we have.

I hope you don't get shot in the back.

BAB
I'm just skipping stones...
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Fri May 11, 2007 7:56 am

Quoting BaylorAirBear (Reply 3):
I hope you don't get shot in the back.

Just being sarcastic Baylor... my idea is certainly not to cower in fear . Quite the opposite ... but probably very politically incorrect as well.

But really what can we do ? Hezbollah could in fact launch attacks against US interests from south America and we will be pretty much powerless to stop it. Especially in light of the Lebanon fiasco ,, could Venezuela become another Lebanon? I know it is far out their , but Hezbollah has shown that the model of operating from a "host "country is effective. Look at the chaos it has created in Israel , truly a scary situation IMO.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Fri May 11, 2007 9:36 am

It has been well documented that Hezbollah has sleeper cells in the West that could cause havoc here. If it comes to war with Iran, we might just see that.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
soups
Posts: 3220
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:41 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Fri May 11, 2007 10:08 am

Quoting TZ757300 (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts?

Probably flew on Iran service to CCS
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Quoting TZ757300 (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts?

That this war is only started. We are in the Sitzkrieg like in Early 1940, when after a brief bit of action most people sat down, enjoyed the Spring and hoped the Nazis would go away.

It might take 10 more years for most of you to realize this, but we are on the doorstep of what will possibly be the bloodiest war in History.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
tz757300
Posts: 2726
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:21 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Fri May 11, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):

It might take 10 more years for most of you to realize this, but we are on the doorstep of what will possibly be the bloodiest war in History.

I realize something is bound to happen, but I really hope your thought is wrong.
LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Sat May 12, 2007 5:03 am

First order of business would be to secure our border... right?
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Sat May 12, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting TZ757300 (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts?

to quote out of the article : """ From its Western base in a remote region divided by the borders of Paraguay, Brazil and Argentina known as the Tri-border, or the Triple Frontier """ the question comes up why the three countries do NOT eradicate such a "base" ? Hizbullah hardly has the population of that area behind it.
-
another aspect is that while Hizbullah in Lebanon, as much as it is backed by Iran, is NOT having Iran as a priority, while this "Latino-Hizbullah" quite obviously DOES have Iran as its focus.
-
to quote further out of the article : "" Arab residents whose families immigrated mainly from Lebanon in two waves, after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war and after the 1985 Lebanese civil war "" . -- The 1948 reference makes it clear that it is Palestinians referred to here. But Palestinians are NOT Shi'ite and so extremely unlikely to join Hizbullah. Further on, the number of Arab immigrants is given as 25'000. Even with a high share, the fundamentalists will hardly have more than 5000 followers, and out of them hardly more than may be 1000 will be ready to join the radicals.
-
It however is difficult to come to a real conclusion, as the information is insufficient.
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
are just a political party in Lebanon

in Lebanon, it primarily is a political party, but with a violent wing. While it over in Paraguay/Brazil/Argentina apparently just is a kind of paramilitary organisation. At least according to the article.
-

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 7):
in Early 1940

in early 1940, the USA was at peace with Germany and at peace with Japan. And again the question: How long will it take until the three countries concerned will move ahead and re-establish control in that region ?
-
 
yanksn4
Posts: 1367
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:05 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Sun May 13, 2007 1:38 pm

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 9):
First order of business would be to secure our border... right?

Not to anyone with the title of Senator, Congressman, or President.

signed,
Matthew
2013 Airports: EWR, JFK, LGA, LIS, AGP, DEN, GIG, RGN, BKK, LHR, FRA, LAX, SYD, PER, MEL, MCO, MIA, PEK, IAH
 
Derico
Posts: 4219
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Sun May 13, 2007 2:02 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 10):
the question comes up why the three countries do NOT eradicate such a "base" ? Hizbullah hardly has the population of that area behind it.

The reason is because there is no such base in the Argentine side. There are no terrorist activities anywhere in northern Argentina.

To enter Argentina EVERYONE must go through customs, show passports, and be searched. Border authorities in Brazil coming from Argentina are a bit more relaxed and many times do not even ask for passports. Paraguay of course is relatively lawless. The big lebanese populations are located in Paraguay and to a lesser degree on the Brazilian side.
In fact, as the article shows, that area has proven more of a national security risk to Argentina than to the United States.

Muslim, Jewish, Christian relations are actually excellent in Argentina, I would dare to say actually that they are the best of any country in this world today. Jews tour Latin America's largest mosque, Christians eat at Kosher McDonalds, and Muslim radicalization (there are 1 million muslims), is virtually non-existant still. We want to keep it this way, and bring along the atheists too!  Smile
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Mon May 14, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 12):
Paraguay of course is relatively lawless. The big lebanese populations are located in Paraguay

interesting, leading to 3 questions :
- why is Paraguay "relatively lawless" ?
- is it then basically a problem about Paraguay ?
- can this problem damage tourism to the Iguacu waterfalls ?
 
Doona
Posts: 3382
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:43 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Mon May 14, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
Or at least that's what we were told during their little war with Israel.

I wasn't told that.  Confused

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Mon May 14, 2007 3:59 am

Nothing much new, other than citing a few names.

Since 9/11, the area has seen much investment from a security point of view in part of the Brazilian government. I haven't heard that much about it, but read that there is money/new equipment/people working in the area.

Paraguay, unfortunately, is known for knock-off products (believed/known to fund terrorism in the middle east) and illegal smuggling. Made in Paraguay is synonym for fake/knock-off products, often jokingly stated but most of the time its not far from the truth.



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 13):
- is it then basically a problem about Paraguay ?

The only problem with Paraguay (in regards to this issue) is that they don't have the funds to enforce laws. That can be applied to others in the region as well, to varying degrees.

The problem is a combination of things:

- It's a Tri-border - inherently easy to hide criminals and criminal activity of any kind.
- Infiltration of terrorist from abroad inciting extremist views and taking part in the local fertile criminal activity for fund-raising.
- With an established large community in the region, it only facilitates life for the terrorists.
- All you need is one extremist Mullah to sway [some of] his followers opinion.

The lack of law enforcement and corruption in the region is more of a serious aggravating factor than a cause.

It's not something that isn't known and that nothing is being done about. It is also a major issue in Brazilian-USA relations (which itself is quite good) due to losses of billions of dollars in copyright infringement, as well as tax revenue for Brasilia. Not to mention it makes the police look pathetic in the publics eyes. . .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Mon May 14, 2007 6:11 am

This is a disaster waiting to happen. A group of militant terrorists are building up force on this side of the Atlantic Ocean. Meaning the odds of our country getting struck is greater, and our politicians aren't willing to deal with illegal immigration.

And additionally, should they not choose to attack us, Bush could stage a terror attack and would have plenty of people to blame in South America.

Andrea Kent
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Mon May 14, 2007 6:14 am

This doesn't surprise me, groups like the IRA operated training camps in South America for many years - both for themselves and for indigenous groups with their own agendas.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8103
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Mon May 14, 2007 11:39 pm

What ridiculous, alarmist rubbish. Hezbollah exist purely to defend Lebanon since the Lebanese national gov't has never been up to the job. That's it. I'm sure they would love to see the end of Israel (like every other man, woman and child from Morocco to Pakistan) but it is not their intention to instigate such a thing. Also, they have always said categorically that they do not target the USA. Of course, if the US attacks Iran, that will change.

It shows how lacking we are in the west that we scare at the mention of a small Lebanese party / national resistance, and how keen we are to demonise all Muslims so we can take what we want from them with a clear conscience (eg oil in Iraq, land in Palestine, water in Lebanon, etc etc). Western, and specifically US, reaction to Hezbollah is like Malaysians ducking under the table in fear at the mention of the IRA. Come on, get a life.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
cedars747
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:04 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Mon May 14, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 19):
What ridiculous, alarmist rubbish. Hezbollah exist purely to defend Lebanon since the Lebanese national gov't has never been up to the job. That's it. I'm sure they would love to see the end of Israel (like every other man, woman and child from Morocco to Pakistan) but it is not their intention to instigate such a thing. Also, they have always said categorically that they do not target the USA. Of course, if the US attacks Iran, that will change.

It shows how lacking we are in the west that we scare at the mention of a small Lebanese party / national resistance, and how keen we are to demonise all Muslims so we can take what we want from them with a clear conscience (eg oil in Iraq, land in Palestine, water in Lebanon, etc etc). Western, and specifically US, reaction to Hezbollah is like Malaysians ducking under the table in fear at the mention of the IRA. Come on, get a life.

Cedarjet ! you are a hero..........wellcome to my RU...............I never expected a so accurate response to this ridiculous thread !
By the way ciudad del Este is mainly full of Koreans and Chinese way more than Arabs !


Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Mon May 14, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15):
The only problem with Paraguay (in regards to this issue) is that they don't have the funds to enforce laws. That can be applied to others in the region as well, to varying degrees.

The problem is a combination of things:

- It's a Tri-border - inherently easy to hide criminals and criminal activity of any kind.
- Infiltration of terrorist from abroad inciting extremist views and taking part in the local fertile criminal activity for fund-raising.
- With an established large community in the region, it only facilitates life for the terrorists.
- All you need is one extremist Mullah to sway [some of] his followers opinion.

-
THIS is a very serious double-problem. The emergence of such organisations in Paraguay and Brazil might create dangers for these two countries before long. AND at worst might even provoke an outside intervention, started to "enforce law and order" .
-
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5455
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 19):
I'm sure they would love to see the end of Israel (like every other man, woman and child from Morocco to Pakistan)

You included, obviously.  Yeah sure

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 19):
small Lebanese party / national resistance

Last time I checked they were terrorist organization.
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 22):
Last time I checked they were terrorist organization.

Here we go again
 duck 
rolf
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 19):
zbollah exist purely to defend Lebanon since the Lebanese national gov't has never been up to the job.

Defend Lebanon against what? The Israeli occupation ended in 2000. They are a proxy of Syria and Iran and nothing more. They do not seek to defend Lebanon; they do Syria and Iran's bidding. As usual, the innocent Lebanese people suffer.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 11):
Quoting Blackbird (Reply 9):
First order of business would be to secure our border... right?

Not to anyone with the title of Senator, Congressman, or President.

 checkmark . Time to give power to the states, get a 3rd party guy in there, take names/kick butts and watch the media darling candidates all suck asphalt and get a real candidate in there.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 19):
Hezbollah exist purely to defend Lebanon

Maybe on paper, but no so much in reality. They'll attack the US - without provocation - at the first opportunity they have. Don't mistake their hateful attitude as a passive one.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 19):
Also, they have always said categorically that they do not target the USA.



Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 19):
It shows how lacking we are in the west that we scare at the mention of a small Lebanese party / national resistance, and how keen we are to demonise all Muslims so we can take what we want from them with a clear conscience (eg oil in Iraq, land in Palestine, water in Lebanon, etc etc). Western, and specifically US, reaction to Hezbollah is like Malaysians ducking under the table in fear at the mention of the IRA. Come on, get a life.

Hmm. Maybe someone needs to get a clue. They have attacked and killed Americans in a manner that in no way had anything to do with the "national resistance". Look at a few of the deeds of a "national party". They are certainly more militant than political. I suppose in Lebanon it is one in the same right now though.

* Bombing of Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia killing 19 U.S. servicemen (1996)
* Bombing of Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires killing 96 (1994)
* Bombing of Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires killing 29 (1992)
* Abduction, torture and death of CIA Station Chief in Lebanon (1985)
* Hijacking of TWA Flight 847 killing one U.S. Navy diver (1985)
* Bombing outside U.S. Embassy annex in Beirut killing 24 (1984)
* Car bombing of U.S. Marine Barracks in Beirut killing 241 U.S. servicemen (1983)
*Car bombing of U.S. Embassy in Beirut killing 63 people, including 17 Americans (1983)
* Car bombing of French military barracks in Beirut killing 58 French paratroopers (1983)


In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 10:08 am

These two statements were only one sentence apart, but are completely irreconcilable.

Explain this to me:

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 19):
Hezbollah exist purely to defend Lebanon since the Lebanese national gov't has never been up to the job. That's it



Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 19):
Also, they have always said categorically that they do not target the USA. Of course, if the US attacks Iran, that will change.

Exist only to defend LEBANON, but would take action if IRAN were attacked?

You can of course explain this discrepancy for us, right?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
tz757300
Posts: 2726
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:21 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 19):



Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 20):

I think this is a conspiracy, Andrea, you may have to block the FBI on this one.
LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8103
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 11:06 pm

Look, this is exactly what I'm talking about. What a bunch of babies! Almost everything on this list is not terrorism, but legitimate military action. Or it wasn't Hezbollah.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
* Bombing of Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia killing 19 U.S. servicemen (1996)

Since when was this done by a Lebanese militia?! What?! Try this: Saudis angry with the US occupation.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
* Bombing of Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires killing 96 (1994)

There isn't a shred of evidence that connects this to Hezbollah. The Argentinian government have said it might have been done by the Iranian government. Israel accused a guy from South Lebanon but it turned out he was killed by their forces inside Lebanon the month before the bomb went off.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
* Bombing of Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires killing 29 (1992)

Ditto. Some accusations of Syrian involvement, some accusations of Iranian involvement. Some dudes arrested, charges dropped after a lack of evidence. Btw this was 15 years ago, a lot has changed. Let's say it was Hezbollah - their country was occupied by Israel at the time and a lot of their people were getting killed by Israeli / US bombs. You may hope for no consequences of Israel's violence against Lebanon but is it rational to expect none? But Hezbollah have always denied it, which, let's face it, they probably wouldn't do if it was really them.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
* Abduction, torture and death of CIA Station Chief in Lebanon (1985)

Oh for god's sake! The CIA Station Chief?! In a war zone?! In a country that is being bombed by the US?! Fair game mate. If this is your definition of terrorism, you're deluded to the point of mental illness.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
* Hijacking of TWA Flight 847 killing one U.S. Navy diver (1985)

Pretty much as above. The US bombed Lebanon in 84 and did some pretty horrific stuff, Israel killed and maimed more than 10,000 with US guns, bombs, planes, materiel etc in their 1982 attack. You think the Lebanese aren't going to be angry? It is the height of arrogance to fly around the eastern Mediterranean as a US serviceman and expect immunity from the actions of your military in the region. You get hijacked and you're carrying US military ID, you're definitely dead. Sorry to the widow, but what do you expect? (Btw what happened to the rest of the pax and crew? Nothing? Released without harm? What kind of terrorist group IS THIS?!)

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
* Bombing outside U.S. Embassy annex in Beirut killing 24 (1984)

Once more then: the US is attacking Lebanon and so did their proxy, Israel. Can you expect no retaliation? The US embassy isn't really a civilian target. Even it's name, the "Embassy Annex" tells you what you need to know - a branch office hidden away on the wrong side of town.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
* Car bombing of U.S. Marine Barracks in Beirut killing 241 U.S. servicemen (1983)

Sorry babes, this ain't remotely like terrorism. I can't think of a more legitimate target than hitting a foreign army in your own town where you live. To claim this is "terrorism" is to claim that it's wrong to attack an occupying army. This was US soldiers in Lebanon (and most definitely NOT WELCOME there), being hit by Lebanese. Sorry, other than the fact that no-one deserves to die, ever, I don't have a problem - politically speaking - with this.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
* Car bombing of U.S. Embassy in Beirut killing 63 people, including 17 Americans (1983)

So I don't just keep repeating the same obvious stuff, I'll just make the point that the determination of the Lebanese to be free of foreign domination would be applauded if it wasn't for the fact that the people they're trying to be free of is us.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
Car bombing of French military barracks in Beirut killing 58 French paratroopers (1983)

OK I'll repeat this too: The determination of the Lebanese to be free of foreign domination would be applauded if it wasn't for the fact that the people they're trying to be free of is us.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 26):
Exist only to defend LEBANON, but would take action if IRAN were attacked? You can of course explain this discrepancy for us, right?

Sure I can explain it. It is not Hezbollah's aim or intention to target the US or it's citizens. Hezbollah get some money from Iran. That makes them allies with Iran. So while the US is not Hezbollah's enemy, if the US chooses to attack Iran, I'm quite sure Hezbollah (and not just them) will not remain neutral.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 28):
Sure I can explain it. It is not Hezbollah's aim or intention to target the US or it's citizens. Hezbollah get some money from Iran. That makes them allies with Iran. So while the US is not Hezbollah's enemy, if the US chooses to attack Iran, I'm quite sure Hezbollah (and not just them) will not remain neutral.

Just keep your head in the sand.

"Some" money? Try most. Explain advanced weapons that were of Iranian manufacture used in the last conflict?
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 28):
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
* Hijacking of TWA Flight 847 killing one U.S. Navy diver (1985)

Pretty much as above.

Are you for real?

You consider the hijacking of a civilian airliner to be a legitimate tactic in the conduct of war?

How much of a terrorist apologist can you be?

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 28):
Sorry babes, this ain't remotely like terrorism. I can't think of a more legitimate target than hitting a foreign army in your own town where you live.

This is the part where you conveniently ignore that the US and French forces were in Lebanon to protect Lebanon from the Israelis.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 28):
Sorry, other than the fact that no-one deserves to die, ever, I don't have a problem - politically speaking - with this.

I'm sure you don't have a problem, politically speaking that is, with any act of terrorism. You'll find an excuse for them all.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 28):
So while the US is not Hezbollah's enemy...

And drinking bleach is good for you.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 28):
Almost everything on this list is not terrorism, but legitimate military action.

Almost everything on that list IS/WAS a terriost act. If you think for a minute these were justified military actions, you're crazy. How can you tell me that killing a US soilder, tossing him out of a plane onto the tarmac is a justified military action.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 31):
How can you tell me that killing a US soilder, tossing him out of a plane onto the tarmac is a justified military action.

On second thought.. his logic is so warped that you can't even debate with him anymore.

Consider this.

He just justified a long string of terrorist acts by simply stating that they are acts in a war against the US... then turns around and says that the Hezzies and the US aren't enemies. Hello, he just said they are at war. Is this some kind of war between friends, not enemies?

His whole position collapses under any critical review.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 32):
Consider this.

He is the guy that gives aid and comfort to these "people." He can be an enabler of such terrorist operations. Big Brother should keep an eye out for him.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 21):
Last time I checked they were terrorist organization.

you have to check BOTH sides. IRA and ETA, just to give two examples, had a violent (terrorist) wing and a legal party wing. Hizbullah, quite in contrast to the other Lebanese party, kept their militia outside the government army.
-


Quoting RJpieces (Reply 23):
They are a proxy of Syria and Iran

They are closely allied with Iran, maybe "proxy". Syria has other channels for influence in Lebanon, like the Amal Party, the Frangieh Clan and now even General Aoun.
-

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 24):
They'll attack the US - without provocation - at the first opportunity they have. Don't mistake their hateful attitude as a passive one.

just some speculation. The really ugly thing about them is that they are a fundamentalist, restrictive, anti-modern, clericalist ultra-religious organisation who would like to push their conservative agenda through.
-

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
They have attacked and killed Americans in a manner that in no way had anything to do with the "national resistance".

The only time they attacked US-Americans was when the USA tried to intervene in Lebanon by military means. As I understood, the idea on the USA-side was to stabilize the country and to terminate the civil war, the view on the other side was to see this as an attempt to occupy the country.
-

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
* Bombing of Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia killing 19 U.S. servicemen (1996)
* Bombing of Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires killing 96 (1994)
* Bombing of Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires killing 29 (1992)
* Abduction, torture and death of CIA Station Chief in Lebanon (1985)
* Hijacking of TWA Flight 847 killing one U.S. Navy diver (1985)
* Bombing outside U.S. Embassy annex in Beirut killing 24 (1984)
* Car bombing of U.S. Marine Barracks in Beirut killing 241 U.S. servicemen (1983)
*Car bombing of U.S. Embassy in Beirut killing 63 people, including 17 Americans (1983)
* Car bombing of French military barracks in Beirut killing 58 French paratroopers (1983)

-
While I tend to agree in regard to the last 4 things, in regard to the first four I think it at least is unclear whether Hizbullah was involved.
-

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 26):
Hezbollah exist purely to defend Lebanon since the Lebanese national gov't has never been up to the job. That's it
Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 19):
Also, they have always said categorically that they do not target the USA. Of course, if the US attacks Iran, that will change.

-
> that they apparently as prime importance care about Iran, reveals their close link over to Iran
> the national government of Lebanon at least did not provoke the Israelis into aggression
-
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 11:41 pm

And here's the other apologist...

No matter which way you look at it, civilian populations are not targets, unless you want the favor returned.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 32):
his logic is so warped that you can't even debate with him anymore.

It's not logic, it's rhetoric.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Tue May 15, 2007 11:54 pm

to combine what we have about Hizbullah :
- being a ultra-conservative, anti-freedom, reactionary, fundamentalist, restrictive, clericalist party
- caring more about far-away Iran, then about the wellbeing of their own country
- taking care to provoke a powerful neighbour into attack and then showing minor counter-attack as victory
- involved in terrorism (like the tragedy with the US-barracks) and other such "activities"
- disrupting normal life of the nation wherever possible and so damaging national Lebanese interests
-
in short, an ugly bunch of people, and whomever is in charge in Brasilia and in Asuncion might be warned to take the matter rather seriously, before it is too late
-
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Wed May 16, 2007 12:04 am

The cure:



Flush them down the crapper or shoot them, buzzards have to eat too.

[Edited 2007-05-15 17:06:55]
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Wed May 16, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 35):
civilian populations are not targets

civilians and the general economy and infrastructure inevitable become targets in case of whatever kind of violent conflict. In case of Hizbullah, the general impression, as outlined above, is that they do NOT care in any way for the wellbeing of their country, but just have their allegiance to Iran and their zealots-ideology in mind as prime priority !
-
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8103
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Wed May 16, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 31):
How can you tell me that killing a US soilder, tossing him out of a plane onto the tarmac is a justified military action.

He was a soldier! Not a civilian! The rest of the passengers and crew were released unharmed.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 31):
Almost everything on that list IS/WAS a terriost act.

Once again, I fail to see how hitting the barracks of a foreign military power in Lebanon is terrorism. Killing 241 American tourists in Beirut would be terrorism. Killing 241 US soldiers in Beirut is not.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 30):
You consider the hijacking of a civilian airliner to be a legitimate tactic in the conduct of war?

Not really, but once again, with the exception of the US serviceman, no-one was injured. So it's not really up there on anyone's list of terrorist atrocities.

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 29):
Explain advanced weapons that were of Iranian manufacture used in the last conflict?

Explain how advanced weapons of US manufacture were used in the last conflict?

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 35):
No matter which way you look at it, civilian populations are not targets, unless you want the favor returned.

Couldn't agree more. And not just because I don't want the favour returned. Killing civilians is never OK.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 25):
[Hezbollah] have attacked and killed Americans in a manner that in no way had anything to do with the "national resistance".

Actually not a single US civilian died in any of the incidents on The List. Only US military, and all of them in Lebanon or Saudi, a looong way from home. Which brings us back to where we started - why are you Americans so terrified of a small Lebanese militia that has never killed a US civilian, never mounted any act of violence outside Lebanon, and whose stated policy is not to target the US?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Wed May 16, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 40):
He was a soldier! Not a civilian!

Was he in the conduct of military operations?

What? No, oh...

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 40):
The rest of the passengers and crew were released unharmed.

You seem to forget the whole kidnapping and holding hostages for several weeks bit.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 40):
Not really...



Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 28):
Fair game mate.

Which one is it?

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 40):
never mounted any act of violence outside Lebanon...

Never mounted an act of violence outside of Lebanon?

So the rockets that fall on Isreal aren't really falling on Isreal?

Is Athens part of Lebanon now? Because that's where TWA 847 was flying out of. To Rome BTW.

"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Wed May 16, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 40):
Killing 241 US soldiers in Beirut is not.

but they had arrived in Beirut as Peacekeepers, in order to end the horrible civil war which had been raging since 1975 and then continued for several years into the late 1980ies. Under the impression of that disaster, the USA in the end withdrew from Lebanon. And what had begun as a hopeful thing and looked quite good, ended in bitterness and tragedy.
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Wed May 16, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 40):
no-one was injured

Really...they beat the crap out of the first officer as well as another passenger on board.

The rest were kept in a hot tin can with little food and water for how long? Watching other people being killed and tortured....I wonder how well they slept after their ordeal.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
cairo
Posts: 889
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Wed May 16, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 35):
No matter which way you look at it, civilian populations are not targets, unless you want the favor returned.

Both sides seem to have the same philosophy, as shown here and here.

When both sides claim they are fighting a war; and the side which claims to represent civilization and western values actually kills many times as many civilians as the "terrorists," what makes the end result of terrorism any different than the end result of "justified military action?"

Maybe the similarity in tactics from both sides - the wanton destruction of civilians - explains the continued failure of the policies?

Cairo
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8103
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Wed May 16, 2007 3:45 am

Round three!

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 41):
Was [the US serviceman killed by the TWA hijackers] in the conduct of military operations?

No but still, he was carrying military ID, and the Navy was his employer. He was not a civilian.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 41):
You seem to forget the whole kidnapping and holding hostages for several weeks bit.



Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 43):
Really...they beat the crap out of the first officer as well as another passenger on board. The rest were kept in a hot tin can with little food and water for how long? Watching other people being killed and tortured....I wonder how well they slept after their ordeal.

No, I'm sure it was terrifying and uncomfortable, but ultimately they were not killed. The US and Israel killed or played a central role in the killing of 10,000+ innocent Lebanese just before then but you're shedding tears over airline passengers who were merely held up before completing their journey. How could you have such a warped sense of priorities?!

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 41):
So the rockets that fall on Isreal aren't really falling on Isreal?

Well when Lebanon is being blown apart with F16s and cruise missiles, and the gov't is too weak to do anything but cosy up to their tormentors, Hezbollah have to do something. And I have to ask, why do you care so much about a country you can't even spell?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 41):
Is Athens part of Lebanon now? Because that's where TWA 847 was flying out of. To Rome BTW.

Hey, if you're flying Emirates from Dubai to Istanbul, sure you're not flying to or from Iraq, but you're in the same neighbourhood and if the plane has trouble (mechanical or political), you could end up in a LOT of trouble if you're carrying US military ID. It's that kind of neighbourhood.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
but they had arrived in Beirut as Peacekeepers, in order to end the horrible civil war which had been raging since 1975 and then continued for several years into the late 1980ies.

Yes! Of course the US was in Lebanon as "Peace Keepers" - just like they went to Iraq to get the WMD (or was it to spread democracy?).
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Wed May 16, 2007 3:47 am

Cedarjet,

Even if it is alarmist... should our government, lead by crazy madmen like Cheney and Bush, decide to stage a terror attack, they'd be able to easily convince the population that terrrorists in Central America did it.

And B.T.W.@ Cedarjet -- I didn't read all the posts until now... You really shouldn't be defending the actions those people (Hezbollah and the like)-- they're really bad-dudes, most of their actions are terroristic, and they play dirty to put it mildly.

Andrea Kent

[Edited 2007-05-15 21:00:03]
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Wed May 16, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 45):
How could you have such a warped sense of priorities?!

Don't you even dare to lecture me about warped priorities....you are justifying terrorism.

You apologists for these uneducated lowlife scumbags don't merit much rebuttal.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 45):
but ultimately they were not killed

So that makes it ok?

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 45):
No but still, he was carrying military ID, and the Navy was his employer. He was not a civilian.

What unbelievable nonsense.


note to self: No holiday card for Cederjet.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Wed May 16, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 45):
Well when Lebanon is being blown apart with F16s and cruise missiles, and the gov't is too weak to do anything but cosy up to their tormentors, Hezbollah have to do something.

That is not what you said.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 40):
never mounted any act of violence outside Lebanon

It's not even close to what you said.

Again, blatant contradictions in your posts.

So, you're just a stinking liar.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 45):
but you're in the same neighbourhood

That's kind of funny. If we play the global neighborhood game.. and Greece gets to be the "neighborhood" of Lebanon, then all of Lebanon is the neighborhood of the hezzies and everyone on the planet is justified killing anything that moves in Lebanon to ensure our security.

Funny how that works.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 45):
.. if the plane has trouble (mechanical or political),

Hijacking reduced to political trouble..

Every time someone mentions reasoning with extreamists, a poster like this comes along and reminds me of the only way to "reason" with them. Anything is justified apparently.

[Edited 2007-05-15 20:59:45]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8103
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Hezbollah Comes To The West

Wed May 16, 2007 4:28 am

Well I can't answer this latest round, you guys are just twisting my words or referring to assumptions that are way off base. I can sum it my position here:

1. killing is never OK
2. killing civilians is double never OK
3. making threats of violence is never OK
4. killing soldiers is wrong, but to be expected when they're actually in someone else's country uninvited - and when that happens, it isn't terrorism, it's national resistence

If you guys are so concerned with ensuring that no more lives are lost because of violence, you should look carefully at your own gov't before obsessing over a small Lebanese militia who have never targeted the US (and that remains their stated policy). I think you're looking for reasons to be spooked to justify more violence against other nations, as though 600,000 dead Iraqis, god knows how many tens of thousands of Afgans, and Lebanon in 2006 isn't bad enough. Honestly. One of you had a pulsating artery "don't you dare lecture me" moment just above here, but it's absurd when there's a little stars and stripes next to the username - once again: 600,000 Iraqis have died because of you and your country. If anyone has surrended the moral high ground when it comes to lecturing about the evils of violence against other (and usually defenceless) humans, it's the USA. Someone railing against the idea of me calling hijacking "political trouble" - well, those 600,000 dead Iraqis have been reduced to "collateral damage" by your gov't and your media, so, you know, potayto, potahto.

(MDorBust, I asked why you cared so much about a country you can't spell. You answered with lots of name-calling and aggression, but no mention of your ignorance of your beloved Zion.)
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 1337Delta764, aerlingus747, Calder, einsteinboricua, Kiwirob, Polot and 13 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos