LHStarAlliance
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Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Mon May 14, 2007 8:45 pm

The Investor cerebrus just bought 80,1 % of Chrysler . for 5.5 Billion €



http://de.biz.yahoo.com/14052007/3/c...-uebernimmt-chrysler-mehrheit.html

http://www.forbes.com/topstories/hom...eds/afx/2007/05/14/afx3716242.html

Edit :english Link :

[Edited 2007-05-14 13:56:58]
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Mon May 14, 2007 9:01 pm

Hmmm, maybe Mercedes now can get back its reputation for reliability?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Mon May 14, 2007 9:32 pm

Note to the new owners of Chrysler: R&D in smaller, very fuel-efficient cars; dump the big gas-guzzlers. That's going to be the winning hand in this century.

Same for all the U.S. automakers.
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Fly-K
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Mon May 14, 2007 9:33 pm

Will FRA-DTW still need four daily flights (2 LH, 2 NW)?
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Mon May 14, 2007 9:34 pm

Quoting Fly-K (Reply 3):
Will FRA-DTW still need four daily flights (2 LH, 2 NW)?

good question ! Maybe just 1 now ...
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dtwclipper
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Mon May 14, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Fly-K (Reply 3):
Will FRA-DTW still need four daily flights (2 LH, 2 NW)?

Yes. The sale of DCX and flights between two strong hubs are unrelated. DCX will most likely end it's own service from PTK to STR, but as the are retaining 18+% of Chrysler there will still be a lot of traffic between the two companies.
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ltbewr
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Mon May 14, 2007 11:14 pm

Cerebus is mainly buying Chrysler for it's financial divisions, not so much for it's vehicle production divisions. They own a good chunk of GMAC, which they bought from GM last year. Unless they find some way to get around the crippling costs of health care for retirees at Chrysler, then they will continue to be on a slow path to death. I just wish that Chrysler had never been owned by Mercedes-Daimer. The deal was largely a failure for them.
 
desertjets
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Mon May 14, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 1):
Hmmm, maybe Mercedes now can get back its reputation for reliability?

Mercedes-Benz's reputation for reliability was already eroding long before the merger in 1999. M-B could no longer operate under the quality at no cost model that they had used right up through the 80s, not when Toyota/Lexus could build high quality vehicles for less... but that isn't the point of this thread.


I am one among many that think that Daimler-Benz sucked the Chrysler Group dry, now kicking them to the curb when their stockpile of cash was used up and the groups profits dried up. Up until a year or two ago the Chrysler Group was profitable, and was responsible for keeping DCX profitable. A lot of product development was slowed or dumbed down as not to upstage their German masters. Far too much of the product in the Chrysler lineup was simply allowed to wither on the vine. Just look at how long some of the product cycles have been since the merger. The current minivans have been out since 2000, with a few major upgrades like Stow-n-go. And since then the major Asian competitors have easily bested once was the top dog in that segment. The replacement needed to come 2 years ago, not this fall.

If this deal is for real I wish the folks at Cerebus good luck, they'll need it. They need a firm hand with labor and they need to invest in the product. Pre-merger that was Chrysler's biggest weakness, they simply did not spend enough on R&D. Which ended up with generally attractive looking vehicles that were just under engineered. And a decade of crappy 4-speed automatic transmissions, peeling paint, and blown head gaskets create a bad rep.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
baw2198
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebr

Tue May 15, 2007 2:42 am

I wonder how things would have looked if Chrysler had bought M-B? Wasn't that how this all began in the first place? Chrysler attempting to purchase M-B?

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 7):
And a decade of crappy 4-speed automatic transmissions, peeling paint, and blown head gaskets create a bad rep.

Chrysler had this problem long before Daimler entered talks. The intrepid engines (3.3 and the 2.7) were among the worst coming into years 1996-1998, among the problems were the headgaskets and valve train gremlins). The LHS's and new yorkers also had their woe's as well with the tranny's going out after only 45K. The neon's, I'm not even going to go there. My grandfather worked for Chrysler starting just before WW2 in the quality control dept, and before his passing in 1998, he would often discuss how cheap their products were getting, great design work and great concept models, but poor choices in materials and engineering.
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 3:25 am

Is there anything left of Chysler? Didn't MB pretty much take over all the engineering and Chrysler was left with body styling? Looks to me like another great company has bitten the dust.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
The Investor cerebrus just bought 80,1 % of Chrysler . for 5.5 Billion €

What a deal!

"DaimlerChrysler’s $7.4 billion “sale” of Chrysler has a great looking headline number. But a parsing of the company’s own press release shows that this is anything but a sale.

In fact, the numbers show it’s an outright giveaway. It’s actually going to cost Daimler about $650 million to unload a business it spent $36 billion on about 9 years ago.
"
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 5:27 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Cerebrus



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 6):
Cerebus

...shouldn't that be Cerberus-- after the dog?

I noticed Fox, MSN, and several other sources all have different spellings.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Superfly
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
Note to the new owners of Chrysler: R&D in smaller, very fuel-efficient cars; dump the big gas-guzzlers.

Chrysler doesn't make any gas-guzzlers anymore and haven't done so since the 1978 New Yorker Brougham.
The HEMI powered Chrysler 300C gets just a few mpg less than a Honda Accord which has half the power of the 300C.
How come no one ever complains about the poor milage of the S-class and M-class Mercedes?
They get worse milage than the HEMI.
Bring back the Concorde
 
N231YE
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):

No offense, but the last time I looked, Chrysler's autos had the Lowest Mileage of the big three (believe it was an EPA report-I don't remember). And I guess when you think about it; the entire Jeep line is SUVs, Dodge has many trucks, a Van, and an SUV (a few cars though), and Chrysler has some SUVs, a Van, but no trucks.

I do hope some like Lee Iacocca come back, or someone like him, and revitalizes Chrystler.
 
Superfly
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 6:11 am

N231YE:
I am talking about cars.
Not SUVs, vans & trucks.
Bring back the Concorde
 
N231YE
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):

My bad...but I was still making the distinction that Chrysler produces many SUVs, Vans, and Trucks, but not as many cars. Thus why Chrysler has (had) the lowest overall EPA estimate averages of the Big Three.
 
Charles79
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 2:58 pm

Funny, I did a presentation for my business class about weeks ago in which I predicted the sale of Chrysler by year's end...and Cerebrus was among the candidates. I echo some comments here, if Chrysler is to survive they need to focus more on small, fuel efficient cars, but keep them fun. The Euro brands have shown as of late that small and fun are not mutually exclusive (witness Mini, Golf/GTI, Megane, Clio, etc). I'm not a huge fan of American cars, but I've been pleasantly surprised with a couple of Chevy Cobalts I've rented recently that drove really well. If only we could do something about the retirement pensions and the health care costs...

Good news for Mercedes, not sure about the fate of the Chrysler workers. Hope they don't get canned soon.

Cheers

Charles
 
Andreas
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 6:51 pm

It's Cerberus, US Financial Investor!
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 6:55 pm

I just hope for the Chrysler Employees ! Not a good time for them ! I just heard on News how happy the Daimler employees are now , but they don´t even think/worry about their American colleagues , where is solidarity !?

Konstantin
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Andreas
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 7:15 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 18):
but they don´t even think/worry about their American colleagues , where is solidarity !?

And what about the fact, that Chrysler was gobbling up billions of dollars, that management had to fork in at other places...like for example by firing people in Germany.

What about those little shareholders with a few shares that they bought as an investment for old age? Shares that went down, down, down....just because the Management made one mistake after the other?

Sorry...but you need to get the facts straight before babbling about solidarity! Everybody knows that it's going to be hard on the Chrysler employees....but they were quite buys dragging down others as well!
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting Andreas (Reply 19):

Maybe try to search a investor which accepts to not fire employees , and so maybe paying some millions less ...

I know Daimler had to sell Chrysler , but every company has a charge of all their employees .

Konstantin
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Andreas
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 20):

And who exactly would be crazy enough to buy Chrysler without a clue what to do with it.....see, Chrysler ist not exactly highly profitable, to put it mildly...and there are reasons why this is the case!!

You HAVE to cut costs if you don't sell enough cars to pay your employees (or sell at a reasonable price...not highly discounted).

Cerberus believe they can make it profitable again..ok, they have Wolfgang Bernhard who'll probably be CEO or chairman of the Board, and he knows a few things about cars...so let's wait and see.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 8:34 pm

Quoting Andreas (Reply 21):

7% of costs of Daimler Chrysler were payments to Employees , I think some better cars , or look at the market would bring much more money to Chrysler .
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pelican
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 8:51 pm

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 7):

I am one among many that think that Daimler-Benz sucked the Chrysler Group dry, now kicking them to the curb when their stockpile of cash was used up and the groups profits dried up. Up until a year or two ago the Chrysler Group was profitable, and was responsible for keeping DCX profitable.

Well the figures don't support your claim. Until 2004 the Mercedes Car Group posted a constant operating profit around 3 billion Euros while Chrysler was already in 2001 in deep troubles but managed a turn around in 2004 while Mercedes profits started to decline in 2004. DCX had to focus on the Chrysler Group and neglected the Mercedes Car Group. Mercedes did not suck Chrysler dry. When Chrysler figures turned into a deep loss again in 2006 DCX had not the endurance anymore for a new restructuring of the Chrysler Group. Cerberus may have it.
in 1999 MCG 2,7 CG 5,2
in 2000 MCG ??? CG 0,5
in 2001 MCG 2,96 CG -2,18
in 2002 MCG 3,0 CG 1,32
in 2003 MCG 3,1 CG -0,56
in 2004 MCG 1,7 CG 1,4
in 2005 MCG -0,5 CG 1,5
in 2006 MCG 2,4 CG -1,18
in billion € operating profits excluding one time effects.

pelican
 
Andreas
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 9:04 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 22):
I think some better cars

Exactly!!
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baw2198
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 9:06 pm

So what was the downfall with dcx and chrysler other then the money issue. What caused sales to drop?
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
TSS
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 8):
My grandfather worked for Chrysler starting just before WW2 in the quality control dept, and before his passing in 1998, he would often discuss how cheap their products were getting, great design work and great concept models, but poor choices in materials and engineering.

Your grandfather was exactly right; Chrysler was well down the great design/crappy execution road long before being bought by Daimler-Benz. The pre-buyout hope among long-time Chrysler fans like myself was that Daimler-Benz would help improve Chrysler's quality and design execution, but in reality it seems that the buyout only served to drag Daimler-Benz's quality down to Chrysler's pre-buyout levels.

Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 25):
What caused sales to drop?

Strikingly attractive yet somewhat unreliable models being replaced by uninspired or downright butt-ugly yet somewhat unreliable models? The giant grilles, blocky bodies, gun slit windows, and peculiar details like corrugated hoods haven't gone over well with the public except in the case of the 300C.
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SJCRRPAX
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Tue May 15, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 25):
So what was the downfall with dcx and chrysler other then the money issue. What caused sales to drop?

In the US, Toyota and Honda.
 
Superfly
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Wed May 16, 2007 12:08 am

I am puzzled why Chrysler is facing difficult times.
They are selling like hotcakes!
The 300C, Magnum, Chargers and even there small cars I see all over the place.
...and for an import snob city like San Francisco to have lots of Chrysler buyers, I know they are doing very well in the middle part of the country.
They can't possibly have a problem moving there product out the door.
Bring back the Concorde
 
desertjets
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Wed May 16, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting TSS (Reply 26):
Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 8):

Quoting BAW2198 (Reply 25):
What caused sales to drop?

Strikingly attractive yet somewhat unreliable models being replaced by uninspired or downright butt-ugly yet somewhat unreliable models? The giant grilles, blocky bodies, gun slit windows, and peculiar details like corrugated hoods haven't gone over well with the public except in the case of the 300C.

Agree on all counts, but that certainly wasn't something unique to Chrysler. You can easily argue that the LH and JA cars when they came out in the mid 90s were pretty striking and attractive, certainly a marked departure from the K-car derived boxes that they replaced. But important things like drivetrains were underengineered... like the notoriously unreliable Ultradrive transmissions. Over the long run I believe that Chrysler simply underinvested in their product, and this goes back into the early to mid 1970s when "new" models were simply reskinned vehicles on mildly reworked chassis. And then the car that saved Chrysler, the K-car, continued in various mainstream derivatives until the mid-90s. You throw in poor product planning since the 80s and things don't look good. Too many vehicles, too many divisions, not enough differentiation between them.

I find the new lot of Chrysler product to be a strange and generally unappealing mix.... short of the 300. While technically they are good cars, a lot of the details, fit and finish, materials leave much to be desired.


Unfortunately it was proven pretty early on that this was never a merger of equals, the synergies that could have happened, the platform and powertrain sharing that should have happened never did. Not really sure who is to blame for that.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Superfly
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Wed May 16, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 29):
You can easily argue that the LH and JA cars when they came out in the mid 90s were pretty striking and attractive,

You have to be kidding?!?!  Wow!
Those cab-forward designs were awful looking! I liked the K-car variants much better (in terms if looks).
I love the 300C, Magnum and Charger platform. I hope to see the Imperial concept go in to production.
Something just isn't adding up. I see Chrysler vehicles all over the place. Who is mis-managing the money?
Bring back the Concorde
 
pelican
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Wed May 16, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
Something just isn't adding up. I see Chrysler vehicles all over the place. Who is mis-managing the money?

Well, they have too much capacity. They could produce much more than they actually sell. The Chrysler group has many, many cars in their inventory. Therefore they are downsizing capacity. And even if they sell a car it doesn't mean they make a profit with the sale.

pelican
 
baw2198
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RE: Daimlerchrysler To Divide , Chrysler To Cerebrus

Wed May 16, 2007 8:37 am

My folks had a 1994 LHS for about 3 years (gold key plus gimik) and I must say, that was a striking car back then and still is today when compared to the 300c and the charger (my opinion, the 70's boxy look was better then the 21st century boxy look we have today).

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
You have to be kidding?!?! Wow!
Those cab-forward designs were awful looking!

Except for the LHS and the New yorker (same thing) your right the intrepid needed a lot of design help and never got it. Even when the LHS was dumped for the 300M it was still a far cry from what it should have been.

Too bad the 300c didn't get the looks of the M-B C or E series 4 doors, and mated with the hemi, that would've been a very sweet vehicle. There's just something about that Cheshire cat smiling grill that bugs me, like I'm buying a 4 door car with a kenworth W 900 hood.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 29):
the platform and powertrain sharing that should have happened never did.

I couldn't agree more. IMHO, DCX might have been able to edge out ford and gm had this been realized by both parties (assuming both parties had equal say)
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green

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