AC773
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Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 9:05 am

Some of the finer points:

-Tax cuts given to the rich based on "trickle-down" economics. All it really did was make the rich richer.
-Closed all the mental hospitals. Those that couldn't "make it" ended up homeless or in prison
-Cut oodles of social programs (even welfare) deemed to be "ineffective" while spending massive amounts of money on defence

And then there are the scandals:

Quote:
The Reagan administration saw several controversies unfold in their ranks which resulted in a number of administration staffers being convicted. The most well known, the Iran-Contra affair, involved a plan whereby weapons were sold to Iran and the profits diverted to fund the Nicaraguan Contras, in violation of US and international law.

225 different people in the Ronald Reagan administration have either quit, been fired, been arrested, indicted, or convicted of either breaking the law or violating the Ethics Code; Edwin Meese alone, the Attorney General, has been investigated by three separate Special Prosecutors.[1]

Several other controversies also occurred in the Reagan administration; one involved Department of Housing secretary Samuel Pierce and his associates. Wealthy contributors to the administration's campaign were rewarded with funding for low income housing development without the customary background checks, and lobbyists, such as former EPA head James G. Watt, were rewarded with huge lobbying fees for assisting campaign contributors with receiving government loans and guarantees. Six administration staffers were convicted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_administration_scandals

-Lastly, although the October Surprise situation in which Reagan made backdoor arms deals with the Iranians before being sworn in to hold off the release of the hostages is officially a conspiracy theory, it is widely believed to be - for the most part - accurate.

Now, besides the fact that he negotiated the end of the Cold War (which we now know he had little influence over since the Soviets were in the shit anyway), what makes people like him so much?
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 9:42 am

He was an actor. He did a very good job of acting like he was getting important stuff done. That "Great Communicator" label was accurate, for all the rest of the man's flaws.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 9:52 am

For all my differences with him policy-wise, he was an effective communicatior, who tried to portray a positive image of America, and could charm even his political opponents. He was an amiable, good-natured president, and, honestly, I think he was a good man. I just didn't like many of his policies, but I never disliked the man.
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copaair737
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 9:54 am

Didn't he fire all the Air Traffic Controllers as well?

And then he got an Airport named after him. How Ironic.

-Copa
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
Falcon84
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 3):
Didn't he fire all the Air Traffic Controllers as well?

And then he got an Airport named after him. How Ironic.

Yes he did. One of the worst moves he ever made. And naming the airport after him was simply a slap in the face at unions by the Republican Congress. It was intended to be a low blow, and it succeeded. To this day, I still call DCA "National Airport". Not as so much at disrespect to Mr. Reagan, but out of contempt for what the Congress did.
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T773ER
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 12:23 pm

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
-Cut oodles of social programs (even welfare) deemed to be "ineffective" while spending massive amounts of money on defence

I don't get it, whats wrong with this?

I see nothing wrong with cutting social programs, half the reciptants choose not to work.

Heck I'am just graduating out of highschool, and found a job in a matter of days that pays $11.50. I know its not that great, but people do have more than one job. YOu have to remeber that this is in Lincoln Nebraska, were the price of living is very cheap. If I could find a job here, I imagine someboday could find one in a larger city in the same time period.

I shouldn't be paying for the lazy asses who choose not to work.
"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man."
 
UAXDXer
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Yes he did. One of the worst moves he ever made.

He told the Air Traffic Controlers that if they went on strike they would be fired. Those who went strike got fired. Simple as that... Sounds like it was one of the worst moves the Air Traffic Controllers Union ever made.


 Yeah sure
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NWADC9
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 12:33 pm

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
Tax cuts given to the rich based on "trickle-down" economics. All it really did was make the rich richer.

Uh, no. The rich got more money because they pay more taxes! If there's a 10% tax, and you earn $20,000, how much are you paying in taxes? Now compare that with $200,000 and $2,000,000. No duh the rich got richer!

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
Cut oodles of social programs (even welfare) deemed to be "ineffective" while spending massive amounts of money on defence

Defense is not important than programs that are a waste of money? This is America-a free-enterprise economy. There's a job for everyone! You can start a business! You can succeed if you get off the couch and WORK!

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 3):
Didn't he fire all the Air Traffic Controllers as well?

Yes, because they were striking.
Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
 
vanguard737
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 12:34 pm

- He restored patriotism to Americans, ruined during the Carter years
- He helped end the Cold War
- He was a solid leader who always said what he meant and did what he said
- He had sound convictions
- He believed in the American people
- He sliced through the tons of bureaucratic red tape and social programs (i.e. handouts) created by the left
- He restored the American military to respectable strength and levels of repair
- He ran his administration off of what he felt was right, not what he thought would make him most popular (Clinton)

I can go on, but you get the point

Fact is, if you are conservative you are going to love him, and if you are liberal you are going to hate him. That in my opinion is the sign of a real leader - because it means he stood for what he believed in instead of trying to pitter-patter to all sides, an impossible task that only dilutes potential.

Rest in peace, Mr. President.

[Edited 2007-05-20 05:35:43]
320 717 722 732 733 735 737 738 744 752 753 763 772 DC9 DC10 MD80 B1900 S340 E120 ERJ CRJ CR7
 
Falcon84
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 12:38 pm

Quoting UAXDXer (Reply 6):
He told the Air Traffic Controlers that if they went on strike they would be fired. Those who went strike got fired. Simple as that... Sounds like it was one of the worst moves the Air Traffic Controllers Union ever made.

It was simply a conservative slap at unions. Nothing more. He could have made a deal with them, but decided not to, simply to break that union. And, then, to name the National Airport after him, the GOP-controlled Congress made a deliberate "fuck you" to unions. It was no happenstance.

It stretched our ATC system for several years after.
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jdwfloyd
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 12:56 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Yes he did. One of the worst moves he ever made.

It was not only against their contract to strike it was also against federal law for them to do so. They knew the risk when they decided to strike and ended up getting canned. The worst thing the did was thirty days before they struck they told the FAA the exact date they planned on doing it. This gave the FAA time to prepare and set up military controllers and management to keep the strike from crippling the national airspace system. They could have done a lot more damage and still kept their jobs by continuing work slow downs and sick outs. PATCO mearly gave Reagan the opportunity to end the contract negotiations in his favor. Reagan pulled the trigger but blame PATCO for handing him the loaded gun and blindfolding the controllers for him.
 
UAXDXer
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 1:14 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 9):
He could have made a deal with them, but decided not to

PATCO could have made a deal with Regan but instead put thousands of its own out on the street. It not like Regan didn't tell them what was coming if they swent on strike.
It takes a bug to hit a windsheild but it takes guts to stick
 
mham001
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 1:57 pm

I left tthe country during his second year and returned during his relection. When I returned, I hitchhiked the entire counry and everywhere i went, the attitudes of the people were upbeat and positive compared to the despair that had I left. The economy was moving, people had jobs and were productive. It was good times. Reagan is easily the finest president in my lifetime.
 
graphic
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 8):
- He restored patriotism to Americans, ruined during the Carter years

Cause you know, the last few presidents before Carter did a great job keeping morale high.  Yeah sure

Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 8):
- He had sound convictions

Though not always a sound mind.  Wink

Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 8):
- He restored the American military to respectable strength and levels of repair

With giant interstellar lasers. Don't we all love lasers?
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N231YE
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 10:54 pm

While I feel for the PATCO people for having to deal with crap conditions and getting fired, the basic rule persists: they knew that they would get fired, and they suffered the consequences.

I find it interesting that in the 1950s, Reagan was a Democrat. He changed to a "Hard-core" Republican, due to the Cold War.

Likewise, I disagreed with many of his policies, but I realize that the man was good natured, and deserves some respect.

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 7):
Uh, no. The rich got more money because they pay more taxes! If there's a 10% tax, and you earn $20,000, how much are you paying in taxes? Now compare that with $200,000 and $2,000,000. No duh the rich got richer!

Uh, yes. Trickle-down/Supply-side economics do not work. The whole intent is to give the rich tax breaks, in hopes that they will pass down the savings to their employees, create job growth, reducing the deficit, etc. Realistically, the cost savings is too small to do anything, and the rich "pocket" the extra money and become richer. This is what is taught from a college economics class...
 
baroque
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting T773ER (Reply 5):
I see nothing wrong with cutting social programs, half the reciptants choose not to work.

Yes, well you should be in your 30s to 40s when the next major disruption in the economic system occurs and you may well live to regret writing that. Aside from that, what do you propose to do with the half that could not work and had their social programs cut?

Quoting Graphic (Reply 13):
Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 8):
- He had sound convictions

Though not always a sound mind. Wink

And the Iran-Contra effort should have lead to a real conviction.  wink 

It is interesting that Carter gets panned for not preventing the Iran hostage crisis, but Reagan more or less skates free for having turned a blind eye to the invasion of Lebanon and the subsequent bombings that are still having awful repercussions decades later. While Jimmy managed at Camp David to sort out one of the boundary problems.

All beyond my understanding.

How is the Laffer curve going these days by the by?
 
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PA110
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 11:39 pm

I have no fond memories of Reagan. His behavior during the AIDS crisis was appalling. Talk about "fiddling while Rome burned", Reagan not only did nothing, he obstructed wherever possible. I can never forgive him for that. I lost dozens of my friends.
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AC773
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting T773ER (Reply 5):
I see nothing wrong with cutting social programs, half the reciptants choose not to work.

Even if that's true (the only quote I've heard on that has been "a small number"), what to do with all the others? The simple fact is that because all these social programs got cut (most importantly the mental hospitals and federally subsidized low-cost housing), the number of homeless people rose dramatically through the 80's. And this jump brought with it something the country had never seen before - homeless women and children.

Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 8):
- He had sound convictions
- He believed in the American people

 rotfl  And Roger Moore is and international spy who kills the baddie every time and gets to sleep with all the women he wants! Bush 43 is saying the same thing; he's just a terrible actor.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 14):
I find it interesting that in the 1950s, Reagan was a Democrat. He changed to a "Hard-core" Republican, due to the Cold War.

The other big reason for his change was the Berkley student movement and the counter-culture of the '60s. He saw them as a bunch of spoiled, punk kids who needed to be put it line. His hard-line treatment of unions came from similar motivations.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 14):
Likewise, I disagreed with many of his policies, but I realize that the man was good natured, and deserves some respect.

 checkmark  Genuinely, he seemed like a nice guy. I, too, respect him for that.
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AC773
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Sun May 20, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting PA110 (Reply 16):
His behavior during the AIDS crisis was appalling.

Wow, I can't believe I forgot to mention this. Thanks for bringing it up.
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 12:20 am

Probably our most overrated President. He receives credit for the collapse of the Soviet Union when he deserves absolutely zero. He’s looked upon fondly by conservatives, but they sometimes forget to mention that back in the day he was originally a Democrat, and as President he acted like it sometimes; he spent like there was no tomorrow and he started America’s war on drugs. He could have addressed AIDS (or GRID as some called it back then) a lot sooner in his presidency. Weapons for hostages was probably the low point of his administration, but to his credit he owned up to that mistake, which is something that has alluded Presidents since him. All in all an average President.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting VANGUARD737 (Reply 8):
- He restored patriotism to Americans, ruined during the Carter years
- He helped end the Cold War
- He was a solid leader who always said what he meant and did what he said
- He had sound convictions
- He believed in the American people
- He sliced through the tons of bureaucratic red tape and social programs (i.e. handouts) created by the left
- He restored the American military to respectable strength and levels of repair
- He ran his administration off of what he felt was right, not what he thought would make him most popular (Clinton)

I can go on, but you get the point

Mega Dittos.....!!!

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
Now, besides the fact that he negotiated the end of the Cold War (which we now know he had little influence over since the Soviets were in the shit anyway), what makes people like him so much?

Not true at all.... at that time the US Military was is bad-bad shape. No new tools, no moral, low pay, a military that's infrastructure was crumbling and poor retention. He got pay raises, new and upgraded tools, new housing-buildings and brought pride back into the military. He also out spent the Communists and forced their demise. It's funny for me to read your comments when you were not even alive at that time and take your information from a known very unreliable source...Wikipedia

.as for why.....?? See the above list.

[Edited 2007-05-20 17:25:00]
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TedTAce
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 12:29 am

I think it all comes down to one word. Timing. He was the right guy for the job at the time.
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aloges
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 7):
This is America-a free-enterprise economy. There's a job for everyone! You can start a business! You can succeed if you get off the couch and WORK!

Goodness... do people really still believe this fairytale? I'm certain the Veteran who lost his legs in Vietnam, the 17yo mother who just got dumped by her "I'll be faithful forever!"-boyfriend and thrown out of her parents' house, the 40yo cancer victim whose medical costs are ten times his income and the depressive guy who can't even afford anti-depressants would really all just love to hear it.  sarcastic 

Bottom line: abandoning welfare is killing people. Period. If a "society" can live with that, its members should really reconsider whether it's worth the name.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 20):
He also out spent the Communists and forced their demise

He was lucky. Had Andropov lived, the USSR and the communist bloc would probably still be in existence. It had been crumbling for years, but only Gorbachev had the courage to put it out of its misery. He looked the other way and refused to intervene when East Germany collapsed in 1989, the beginning of the end of the communist bloc.

That was unprecedented in the USSR. It wasn't Reagan who finished-off the communists, it was Gorby.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting AC773 (Reply 17):
The other big reason for his change was the Berkley student movement and the counter-culture of the '60s. He saw them as a bunch of spoiled, punk kids who needed to be put it line.

The first demonstrations at Berkeley were against the 1967 budget cuts which proposed a tuition fee on the UC system for the first time ever. It was later that year that he called for a harder line against war protestors.

Quoting AC773 (Reply 17):
His hard-line treatment of unions came from similar motivations.

Even though he was president of the Screen Actors Guild from 1947-1952 and 1959-1960.  Wink
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Yellowstone
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 23):
but only Gorbachev had the courage to put it out of its misery.

I'm not sure that Gorbachev deserves quite as much credit as you are giving him. He certainly wanted to reform the Soviet system, but he wanted to keep the USSR as a Communist country. What he failed to realize was that there wasn't much support in the middle for a liberalized Communism, so once he started the reforms he wasn't able to stop the chain reaction where he would have liked. But I do agree, Gorbachev was significantly more responsible for the end of the Soviet system than Reagan was. I find Reagan's "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" speech especially ironic, since Gorbachev had made it clear that the Soviets were not going to intervene in East Germany, and that it was up to the Germans to decide what to do with the wall.
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
Now, besides the fact that he negotiated the end of the Cold War (which we now know he had little influence over since the Soviets were in the shit anyway), what makes people like him so much?

Why you ask? He was a freaking bad ass that didn't take shit from anybody. Unlike the last three candy asses we've had in there.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 25):
I'm not sure that Gorbachev deserves quite as much credit as you are giving him.

You are right, he probably didn't expect a huge chain reaction throughout Eastern Europe, and he may not have been able to stop it. He didn't even try.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 20):
Not true at all

I hate when I take time from my Sunday to straighten out my fellow aNetters but sometimes it's necessary.

President Regan was around at the right time. Simply put it was pure dumb luck that he was around right before the Berlin wall was torn down. Imagine if the USSR collapsed during President Carter's administration? Would conservatives give him any credit for it? I doubt it. But actually the USSR should have collapsed during the 70s, but it was saved by oil.

The Soviet Union was saved by oil in the 1970s and Russia went from being a net importer of oil to a net exporter. Hard currency came rolling in and it helped fund expensive Soviet projects. One project that was made possible with oil money was the modernization of the Soviet military, which for some time was on par with the U.S. military. Other projects included the acquisition of western technology to build factories.

The influx of oil money increased the likelihood of the Soviet "experiment" to stagnate further into the 20th century. The Soviet Union had a strong military, living standards were okay, everyone had a job and patriotism was high. But soviet elites have always had reason for caution. The gap between the Soviet Union and west in technology, living standards and economic growth were becoming wider with each passing year. A major reason for the increasing gap was Russia's economic, and political resources were being drained on its Soviet satellite states. This drain was intensified during the Brezhnev era and his Brezhnev doctrine. This doctrine asserted Moscow's right to intervene in the affairs of other socialist states. Obviously this continued drain was not sustainable forever.

By the time Gorbachev was in office the Soviet Union was in desperate need of economic and political reform. Without reform the Soviet Union would never be able to catch up to the west. Gorbachev chose to reform the old system with his policy of perestroika. Perestroika produced radical unanticipated effects that did not reform the old system but instead brought down the old economic system. Perestroika became the catalyst for the downfall of the Soviet Union not Ronald Regan.

Gorbachev's perestroika rallied substantial opposition. And what was not thought possible only a few years earlier was now seemingly a reality made possible by perestroika; nationalist, orthodox-communists, and populist forces were opposing Gorbachev's attempts to liberalize and revitalize Soviet socialism. Some of the new movements aspired to replace the Soviet system altogether with a liberal democratic one, others demanded independence for the national republics. Still others insisted on the restoration of the old Soviet ways. Ultimately, Gorbachev could not forge a compromise among these forces.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 28):
The Soviet Union had a strong military, living standards were okay, everyone had a job and patriotism was high.

Hate to ruin your Sunday time out, but it is rather certain, viewed today, the Soviet Union had a weak military compared to the US, poor living standards, massive poverty and a rather thin level of morale - thus little patriotism. The rest of your gibberish is just that.
 
Longhornmaniac
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 28):
The gap between the Soviet Union and west in technology, living standards and economic growth were becoming wider with each passing year. A major reason for the increasing gap was Russia's economic, and political resources were being drained on its Soviet satellite states. This drain was intensified during the Brezhnev era and his Brezhnev doctrine. This doctrine asserted Moscow's right to intervene in the affairs of other socialist states. Obviously this continued drain was not sustainable forever.



Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 29):
Hate to ruin your Sunday time out, but it is rather certain, viewed today, the Soviet Union had a weak military compared to the US, poor living standards, massive poverty and a rather thin level of morale - thus little patriotism. The rest of your gibberish is just that.

Just out of curiosity, did you even read the rest of it? He's not saying that the USSR existed like that throughout the Cold War, or anything resembling it.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
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AC773
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 20):
Not true at all....

I'd rebut that, but it seems many people already have.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 20):
It's funny for me to read your comments when you were not even alive at that time and take your information from a known very unreliable source...Wikipedia

I don't take my info from Wikipedia, I take it from a year of studying US History in college. The Wikipedia articles I post are merely for reference, and besides, a study has already shown that it's just as accurate as Britannica. It's not something I'd ever use for a paper, but good enough for A.net.
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 19):
Probably our most overrated President.

 checkmark 

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 19):
All in all an average President.

 checkmark 

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 19):
He receives credit for the collapse of the Soviet Union when he deserves absolutely zero.

 checkmark 

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 28):

Summed it up quite well, as mentioned earlier he was just there at the right time.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
BN747
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
For all my differences with him policy-wise, he was an effective communicatior, who tried to portray a positive image of America,

Oh he communicated all right... as long as you weren't gay or a minority-- he spoke for and to you. Scary part is, a majority of the world outside the US saw right thru this ...clear as day--but it's astonishing how clueless many Americans remain to this very day at accepting that this guy brilliantly pretended as if a good portion of American citizens did not matter and did not count. Amazing what people can accept 'in order to feel good' -- so that's patriotism, got it!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 16):
Reagan not only did nothing, he obstructed wherever possible.

While the first part's rather indisputable, how (and in what ways) did he obstruct?

Quoting PA110 (Reply 16):
I lost dozens of my friends.

Based on the behavior of so many gays in today's age of information: would you likely not have lost them anyways, regardless of what Reagan decided to do?

Quoting Aloges (Reply 22):
Bottom line: abandoning welfare is killing people

Where's the loss in that for either side?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 34):
Based on the behavior of so many gays in today's age of information: would you likely not have lost them anyways, regardless of what Reagan decided to do?

Not necessarily. The use of protection of any type was nearly zero in the late 70s/early 80s. I find it improbable to believe that everyone's discarded safe sex practices in recent years.
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aloges
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 34):
Quoting Aloges (Reply 22):
Bottom line: abandoning welfare is killing people

Where's the loss in that for either side?

Do you really mean what I think you mean: that leaving people for dead through welfare cuts is a good thing?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
mham001
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting AC773 (Reply 31):
I don't take my info from Wikipedia, I take it from a year of studying US History in college.

Yes, Im sure a college course in Canada will give you a more accurate portrait of US history than that of one who was there.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Mham001 (Reply 37):
Im sure a college course in Canada will give you a more accurate portrait of US history than that of one who was there.

Hmm, I think the same when 20-somethings try to tell us what the AIDS crisis was like in the 1980s.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35):
I find it improbable to believe that everyone's discarded safe sex practices in recent years.

...indeed, though you're the only one to even allude to such a scenario in this conversation.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 36):
Do you really mean what I think you mean: that leaving people for dead through welfare cuts is a good thing?

I doubt I could care less in the event such a policy was instituted, if that's what you're wondering; but no, that's not exactly what I asked.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
copaair737
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 5:33 am

Everytime I think of Reagan, I'm reminded of the Dead Kennedys' song "We've Got a Bigger Problem Now"

Last call for alcohol.
Last call for your freedom of speech.
Drink up. Happy hour is now enforced by law.
Don't forget our house special, it's called a Trickie Dickie Screwdriver.
It's got one part Jack Daniels, two parts purple Kool-Aid,
and a jigger of formaldehyde
from the jar with Hitler's brain in it we got in the back storeroom.
Happy trails to you. Happy trails to you.

I am Emperor Ronald Reagan
Born again with fascist cravings
Still, you made me president

Human rights will soon go 'way
I am now your Shah today
Now I command all of you
Now you're going to pray in school
I'll make sure they're Christian too

California Uber alles
Uber alles California

Ku Klux Klan will control you
Still you think it's natural
Nigger knockin' for the master race
Still you wear the happy face

You closed your eyes, can't happen here
Alexander Haig is near
Vietnam won't come back you say
Join the army or you will pay

California Uber alles
Uber alles California

Yeah, that's it. Just relax.
Have another drink, few more pretzels, little more MSG.
Turn on those Dallas Cowboys on your TV.
Lock your doors. Close your mind.
It's time for the two-minute warning.

Welcome to 1984
Are you ready for the third world war?!?
You too will meet the secret police
They'll draft you and they'll jail your niece

You'll go quitely to boot camp
They'll shoot you dead, make you a man
Don't you worry, it's for a cause
Feeding global corporations' claws

Die on our brand new poison gas
El Salvador or Afghanistan
Making money for President Reagan
And all the friends of President Reagan

California Uber alles
Uber alles California
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 39):
you're the only one to even allude to such a scenario in this conversation.



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 34):
would you likely not have lost them anyways

 scratchchin  I don't know what other connection could be made.
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jaysit
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 10:26 pm

Reagan is remembered fondly because he had a lovely voice and read lovely verse written by that ultimate political whore, Peggy Noonan.

Reagan also came after the disastrous Carter, stagflation, the Iran hostage crisis, the OPEC oil crisis.

He wasn't a bad looking guy either, even at 69.

Also, Americans like wealth and Reagan made the accumulation of wealth popular again. Enough of the guilt about being rich schtick, he said.

It was hard not to like him on a personal level, even when you disagreed with him on many of the issues, and even though the people he hired were quite often the worst of the lot (Pat Buchanan, James Watt, Ed Meese, Scalia). He did make some commendable hires though (Day O'Connor, Stockton, Kirkpatrick). He may have been clueless on some of the big issues of the day (AIDs), but he was far more with it than GWB. In the end, its all relative.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
aloges
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 39):
Quoting Aloges (Reply 36):
Do you really mean what I think you mean: that leaving people for dead through welfare cuts is a good thing?

I doubt I could care less in the event such a policy was instituted, if that's what you're wondering; but no, that's not exactly what I asked.

You've totally lost me there... You "doubt that you could care less" - usually people omit the "could not care less" bit, is that the case here?

Anyway, let's let this go the way of the Dodo.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
jaysit
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 10:54 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 34):
Quoting PA110 (Reply 16):
Reagan not only did nothing, he obstructed wherever possible.

While the first part's rather indisputable, how (and in what ways) did he obstruct?

How did he obstruct? He obstructed by refusing to react affirmatively to the cries of his own political hires at the NIH, FDA, HHS, etc., while letting jerks like Pat Buchanan override the demands of scientists and his own hires like C. Everett Koop.

When by 1983, over 6,000 people had died and the NIH was screaming for dedicated funding, the White House issued this statement by Pat Buchanan: AIDS is "nature's revenge on gay men." How Pat Buchanan got away with that only God knows, but I'm sure he and Falwell will be spending time in hell fellating each other.

Reagan could have chosen to end the homophobic rhetoric that flowed from the conservative Christian right-wingers in his administration. Dr. C. Everett Koop, Reagan's surgeon general, has said that because of "intradepartmental politics" he was cut out of all AIDS discussions for the first five years of the Reagan administration. The reason, he explained, was "because transmission of AIDS was understood to be primarily in the homosexual population and in those who abused intravenous drugs." Koop said that the president's advisers, took the stand that AIDs victims were only getting what they justly deserved.

It took Rock Hudson's death (he was one of Nancy Reagan's pals) for Reagan to do something, i.e., to direct research funding to the NIH.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 11:10 pm

Directly related with RR's administration.

"


Federal prosecutors are preparing to unveil criminal charges against former budget director David A. Stockman for incomplete disclosures and improper accounting practices he allegedly endorsed while at the helm of a Michigan auto parts company, according to sources familiar with the two-year investigation.

Stockman, 60, famously led the Office of Management and Budget under President Ronald Reagan, who once took him "to the woodshed" for privately expressing doubts about huge deficits at the same time he was selling the administration's budget to the public and federal lawmakers....

"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2007/03/20/AR2007032001648.html
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
baroque
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Mon May 21, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 36):
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 34):
Quoting Aloges (Reply 22):
Bottom line: abandoning welfare is killing people

Where's the loss in that for either side?

Do you really mean what I think you mean: that leaving people for dead through welfare cuts is a good thing?

There I was Aloges, thinking you post was a precise explanation of matters that would be hard to fault, when BANG! So I am left wondering what else "Where's the loss in that for either side?" could possibly mean.  Confused  Confused
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Tue May 22, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 41):
I don't know what other connection could be made.

...sounds like a personal problem.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
You "doubt that you could care less" - usually people omit the "could not care less" bit, is that the case here?

The statement is correct as originally presented.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 44):
Reagan's surgeon general, has said that because of "intradepartmental politics" he was cut out of all AIDS discussions for the first five years of the Reagan administration. The reason, he explained, was "because transmission of AIDS was understood to be primarily in the homosexual population and in those who abused intravenous drugs." Koop said that the president's advisers, took the stand that AIDs victims were only getting what they justly deserved.

It took Rock Hudson's death (he was one of Nancy Reagan's pals) for Reagan to do something, i.e., to direct research funding to the NIH.

Understood. 'Preciate the info.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Tue May 22, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 47):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 41): I don't know what other connection could be made.

...sounds like a personal problem.

Or you could have just stated what you meant originally. This is a discussion, not a guessing game forum.
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frequentflyer
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RE: Why Is Reagan Remembered So Fondly?

Tue May 22, 2007 3:03 am

I think he had the right attitude (firm) in front of the then-USSR and had a sunny persona.

But he has been quite awful on social policies.

He let down thousands of people stricken by AIDS. Many subsequently died because of it. It also has delayed research on that area, meaning more deaths or impairment.That is a big stain.

A huge, immoral stain. Or incompetence?
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