LHStarAlliance
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BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 12:56 am

Hi,

The title says it all

http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/articl...Volvo_verkaufen_-_aus_Geldnot.html

Ford selling Volvo because of shortage of money ...


Konstantin
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Marquis
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 3:40 am

In case BMW should opt for a Volvo takeover I desperately hope that Volvo's virtues and values will retain the same.
Riding the radials...
 
andz
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting Marquis (Reply 1):
In case BMW should opt for a Volvo takeover I desperately hope that Volvo's virtues and values will retain the same.

Yeah heaven forbid they become reliable, stylish and fun to drive.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
Marquis
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting Andz (Reply 2):
Yeah heaven forbid they become reliable, stylish and fun to drive.

I don't know which experiences you had with Volvo's, but mine were all great. We own our fourth (autumn this year the 5th one will join the family) Volvo now and never had a single unscheduled stopover at the dealer's garage. Perfectly reliable and stylish cars and they are even fun to drive in my humble opinion.
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AC773
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting Andz (Reply 2):
Yeah heaven forbid they become reliable, stylish and fun to drive.

1. Ever since the S40 era, their previous issues with reliability are no longer present

2. The XC90 is no stallion, but the rest of the range is perfectly fun to drive.

3. And Volvo makes some of the best-looking cars on the market. BMW could stand to learn a thing or two (or three) from Volvo about design.
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
alfa75
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
The title says it all

That is, of course, I could read German!!  confused 
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MCOflyer
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 8:49 am

Quoting AC773 (Reply 4):

3. And Volvo makes some of the best-looking cars on the market. BMW could stand to learn a thing or two (or three) from Volvo about design.



Quoting AC773 (Reply 4):

1. Ever since the S40 era, their previous issues with reliability are no longer present

Totally agree. I wish BMW would Volvo's ride and implement it on their 7 series. But we'll see what happens.

Hunter
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flight152
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting AC773 (Reply 4):
And Volvo makes some of the best-looking cars on the market. BMW could stand to learn a thing or two (or three) from Volvo about design.

Completely subjunctive. Volvo's are still boring, have you seen the new S80? ZzZZzZZ

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 6):
Totally agree. I wish BMW would Volvo's ride and implement it on their 7 series. But we'll see what happens.

Volvo's FWD forward bias weight induces torque steer, mushy suspensions, and non linear steering. BMW's handling (among other reasons) actually sells cars, its a good thing you don't work for BMW.
 
aerobalance
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 10:26 am

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 7):
Volvo's FWD forward bias weight induces torque steer, mushy suspensions, and non linear steering. BMW's handling (among other reasons) actually sells cars, its a good thing you don't work for BMW.

Forward weight bias does not induce torque steer - unequal length half-shafts do, weight bias effects polar moments of inertia and brake balance. Mushy suspensions can be had in fwd, awd, or rwd vehicles - it's all up to how the engineers design the stiffness in the springs, shocks, bushing and sway bars. Weight bias has no input on steering feel, other factors inherent to the steering system do.

Most people who own BMW's never approach the handling limits of the car, thus they have no clue how well they handle, therefore they don't buy them for that reason. I however, bought my 335i, cuz it kicks some serious ass in a luxurious way.  Wink
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
Chiguire
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 10:29 am

I love Volvo (have a C70 cabrio) and I think BMW is much better for them as Ford. Altought the design has really improved now. I love the C30 and the XC60 concept !
 
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solnabo
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 10:33 am

Woow!

Keeping my fingers crossed for this marrige to comethrou, both awesome brands imho.

Micke//  crossfingers   crossfingers   crossfingers 
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bill142
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 12:19 pm

Quoting Chiguire (Reply 9):
I love the C30

The C30 looks like a Volvo I would consider.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 12:39 pm

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 7):
BMW's handling (among other reasons) actually sells cars, its a good thing you don't work for BMW.

I wish BMW would solve some stiff issues with the 7 series.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
AC773
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 1:03 pm

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 7):
Completely subjunctive.

I think you mean subjective, and I partly agree with you. There are some things, however, which are not debatable about car design. The entire Aston Martin range, for example.

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 7):
Volvo's are still boring, have you seen the new S80?

Come on, just look at it. The way that sculpted hood line follows the length of the car; the way the headlights curve up and sweep back - Shazam!  highfive 
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
CupraIbiza
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 2:47 pm

In fact BMW could buy Ford Motor Company in conjustion with the KKRs of this world.

BMW keeps Jaguar, Aston Martin, Land Rover and Volvo. KKR and their razor gang machetes its way through the Ford brand (close at least 3/4 of the US plants) back to profitability
Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
 
Zone1
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 4:31 pm

Quoting AC773 (Reply 4):
3. And Volvo makes some of the best-looking cars on the market. BMW could stand to learn a thing or two (or three) from Volvo about design.

I don't know. Most of the new Volvo designs take some ideas from Bangle's designs. The S80 has the Bangle butt that everyone loves to hate. I personally don't mind his designs, and think the toned down 7 series is dumb looking.
/// U N I T E D
 
Molykote
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting Marquis (Reply 3):
I don't know which experiences you had with Volvo's, but mine were all great. We own our fourth (autumn this year the 5th one will join the family) Volvo now and never had a single unscheduled stopover at the dealer's garage. Perfectly reliable and stylish cars and they are even fun to drive in my humble opinion.



Quoting AC773 (Reply 4):
1. Ever since the S40 era, their previous issues with reliability are no longer present

Apart from the S80, Volvo reliability ratings are very poor.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
Marquis
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Tue May 29, 2007 5:21 pm

Quoting Zone1 (Reply 15):
Most of the new Volvo designs take some ideas from Bangle's designs. The S80 has the Bangle butt that everyone loves to hate.

Sorry, but I can't see any similarities between Volvo's and Chris Bangle's very distinctive designs. The first S80 already had the same shaped rear end like the current model has got.
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N1120A
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Wed May 30, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Marquis (Reply 1):
In case BMW should opt for a Volvo takeover I desperately hope that Volvo's virtues and values will retain the same.

In many ways, the two companies have very similar values. BMW has always placed a strong emphasis on safety, producing some of the safest models ever built. Further, both have always operated within their own niche, without compromising for the sake of fad.

Quoting Andz (Reply 2):

Yeah heaven forbid they become reliable, stylish and fun to drive.

Volvos have always been reliable, became stylish in the late 1990s and can be very fun to drive

Quoting AC773 (Reply 4):
And Volvo makes some of the best-looking cars on the market.

And designed in my home town.

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 8):
I however, bought my 335i, cuz it kicks some serious ass in a luxurious way

Not to mention having proper BMW power, an inline 6

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 14):
In fact BMW could buy Ford Motor Company in conjustion with the KKRs of this world.

That wouldn't be BMW's style. BMW's policy has been to remain beholden to no one so they are able to operate as they so wish. If BMW were beholden to a group like KKR or similar, they would likely be churning out POS FWD V6s by now.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 16):
Volvo reliability ratings are very poor.

And Consumer Reports needs to be taken with a grain of salt
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AA777
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Wed May 30, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting Andz (Reply 2):

Yeah heaven forbid they become reliable, stylish and fun to drive.

HAHA, so true! My sister owns a Volvo S60R- which is supposed to be their most sporty, performance oriented car. I like the quality of the interior materials, and layout of the cabin. But... when it comes to driving dynamics, the car is a bust. Great pickup once you're moving. But there's no soul. No connection. I call her car "the brick" because thats what it feels like when you drive it.

I am all for a BMW takeover... Volvo reliability with BMW driving dymanics. You might have the biggest winner ever.

-AA777
 
CupraIbiza
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Wed May 30, 2007 8:11 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 14):
In fact BMW could buy Ford Motor Company in conjustion with the KKRs of this world.

That wouldn't be BMW's style. BMW's policy has been to remain beholden to no one so they are able to operate as they so wish. If BMW were beholden to a group like KKR or similar, they would likely be churning out POS FWD V6s by now.

What I was suggesting was that KKR manage the "traditional blue oval" Ford brands. BMW would only be involved with P.A.G. companies
Everyday is a gift…… but why does it have to be a pair of socks?
 
N1120A
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Wed May 30, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 20):

What I was suggesting was that KKR manage the "traditional blue oval" Ford brands. BMW would only be involved with P.A.G. companies

BMW would still be beholden to KKR in some way, even if as part of a partnership. VW may be able to get away with the fact that Porsche has the ability to pull a few strings simply because they are so big but BMW thrives on its independence.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LYRFlyer
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Wed May 30, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting Marquis (Reply 3):
Volvo now and never had a single unscheduled stopover at the dealer's garage. Perfectly reliable and stylish cars and they are even fun to drive in my humble opinion

I can vouch for that! I love Volvo, and Saab too for that matter

Quoting AC773 (Reply 4):
Volvo makes some of the best-looking cars on the market. BMW could stand to learn a thing or two (or three) from Volvo about design.

Completely agree! Some bmws driving around today are some of the ugliest cars you can get. Others are ok, but I prefer the 90's 7-series and 5-series.

[Edited 2007-05-30 15:09:15]
Suck, squeeze, bang, blow.
 
Molykote
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Wed May 30, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Quoting Molykote (Reply 16):
Volvo reliability ratings are very poor.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
And Consumer Reports needs to be taken with a grain of salt

You correctly assume that I've used CR reliability data as at least a large portion of the basis for my claim. To boot, my Volvo owning friends and associates have had poor experiences with Volvo reliability (although I didn't mention this as it's not the primary basis for my claim and I don't care to present anecdotal evidence as meaningful in this discussion).

However, are you disputing my claim that the reliability of modern Volvos is (as a whole) pretty poor?

The CR reliability data is an excellent resource for owners who do not partake in their own maintenance and is a very good resource for owners like myself who perform about 80% of their own maintenance (and are aware of common problems with their vehicle). Owners like myself (and perhaps yourself) may care to read between the lines of certain system reliability ratings of some cars based upon our deeper knowledge of a specific vehicle(s).

Given that most people do not perform their own maintenance (particularly on higher end cars), most owners have little interest in reading beyond this data in a way that you or I might.

For all the faults of Consumer Reports, I am aware of no better centralized and widely accessible database of car reliability data. For specific models, R&T's "Used Car Classic" features contain great information (but are limited to a very small handful of used cars). Likewise, enthusiast user forums provide great information but generally operate independently from group to group (i.e. miata.net) and thus lack a cohesive presentation format and data bank.

Do you have a better source of easily accessible reliability data for such a wide variety of cars (to the average buyer)?
If you don't, I see no value added to this discussion from your comment (at least within the scope of this thread).




After expanding upon my statement above, I should say that I generally agree with you (and have probably made a statement like the one below on more than one occasion). A New Car Pontiac G6? (by Aaden Jan 20 2007 in Non Aviation)#1
Where I stated:

I am no fan of Consumer Reports myself. With regard to automobiles, the only insightful information provided by Consumer Reports is the reliability data for used cars (and even this, like all statistical data, requires effective interpretation by the reader).
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
N1120A
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Thu May 31, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Molykote (Reply 23):


However, are you disputing my claim that the reliability of modern Volvos is (as a whole) pretty poor?

The question is what kind of reliability and longevity are we talking about? Is this door handles and switches, which are annoying but don't really have much to do with the ability to drive the car or are we talking about drivetrain and safety?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Molykote
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Thu May 31, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
The question is what kind of reliability and longevity are we talking about? Is this door handles and switches, which are annoying but don't really have much to do with the ability to drive the car or are we talking about drivetrain and safety?

Most of the problem areas for current and late model Volvos involve major (or at least expensive components):

- problems related to the AWD system (look at the relative ratings of the S60 or other Volvo with FWD vs AWD)
- brakes
- suspension
- climate control
- electrical systems
- power equipment

Depending on the model, problems with door handles and switches do exist but such problems were not the focus of my comments. Additionally, even for systems that do not render the car inoperative, I don't believe most people would tolerate an inoperative climate control on a $40k+ vehicle. The Volvo engine reliability has been good in recent years. Although engines are obviously "the" major component in a car, very few engines in late model year cars are known for having any real problems (with little more maintenance than routine oil changes). I do acknowledge that Volvo has achieved engine reliability on par with most other reputable makes with the added complexity/stress of a turbo (which is a point to their credit).

In the end (for most consumers having work performed at a dealer or other shop), the distinction between $1800 spent on a new air conditioner or suspension overhaul isn't as important as the fact that the vehicle will be out of service and consuming money before getting back on the road (regardless of the reason). And yes, I do acknowledge that components such as door handles and trim pieces are not major problems.

It doesn't appear that we disagree on much in this discussion (or other automotive subjects in general now that I've been reading these forums for some time). However, I don't believe some of the Volvo conventional wisdoms you cite apply to most late model products.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
AC773
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Thu May 31, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting Molykote (Reply 25):

And I suppose none of the Audis, BMWs, and Mercs in that price range have any of those problems?  Yeah sure

I don't know about anybody else, but I'm not bothered by petty stuff like that. Little things break, it's part of life - if I want to lead a boring existence, I'll buy a Toyota Camry.
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
heliflyerPDC
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Thu May 31, 2007 4:38 am

I drive a V50, and I have to say it is a great car, practical, looks very nice, handles perfect ,.........

I went to BMW, but I found that their interiors weren't as nice (and looked a bit too much like plastics). And I found that the Volvo was more practical and could be used for more.

A takeover would be good for both parties, Ford isn't the right company for Volvo, it has to much class, so BMW would be a great parent company.

I'm curious what would happen with the XC60.

grtz PDC

ps: my car


ps2: I don't have anything against BMW or Ford, just explaining my experience  

[Edited 2007-05-30 21:55:08]
grtz PDC
 
Molykote
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Thu May 31, 2007 7:56 am

Quoting AC773 (Reply 26):
Quoting Molykote (Reply 25):


And I suppose none of the Audis, BMWs, and Mercs in that price range have any of those problems?

I don't know about anybody else, but I'm not bothered by petty stuff like that. Little things break, it's part of life - if I want to lead a boring existence, I'll buy a Toyota Camry.

I never said that higher end German cars were immune to these types of problems. My only point was to suggest that Volvos are closer to the reliability and maintenance requirements of an Audi/BMW/M-B than a Lexus or Infiniti.

As a matter of my personal taste, I'd rather have the sporting characteristics of a BMW/Audi and put up with such maintenance requirements - OR - just get a Lexus or Infiniti (with a driving experience on par with the Volvo - depending on the model IMO) while avoiding the expenses inherent in the performance oriented BMW/Audi/MB cars.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
AC773
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Thu May 31, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting Molykote (Reply 28):
My only point was to suggest that Volvos are closer to the reliability and maintenance requirements of an Audi/BMW/M-B than a Lexus or Infiniti.

Has anyone said anything to the contrary?

Quoting Molykote (Reply 28):
As a matter of my personal taste, I'd rather have the sporting characteristics of a BMW/Audi and put up with such maintenance requirements - OR - just get a Lexus or Infiniti

If buying a car is a business decision, then yes, there is little reason to purchase a Volvo. Personally, though, I'm far more concerned with style, gadgetry (Volvo's safety and audio technologies are unparalleled for its class), and individuality.
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
Molykote
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Fri Jun 01, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting AC773 (Reply 29):
Has anyone said anything to the contrary?

No, but rolling your eyes in response to my earlier comment served what purpose exactly?
Perhaps I missed something. What were you suggesting?

Quoting AC773 (Reply 29):
If buying a car is a business decision, then yes, there is little reason to purchase a Volvo. Personally, though, I'm far more concerned with style, gadgetry (Volvo's safety and audio technologies are unparalleled for its class), and individuality.

If a Volvo stirs your soul, you certainly are a unique individual  Smile

I was not viewing the purchase as a boring business decision (particularly as I consider myself a "car guy" and understand why cars like a Camry, while looking great on paper, don't do much for enthusiasts). My point was simply that I see Volvo being in an odd position where they offer buyers neither the reliability nor the handling competitive with other cars in this price class. Volvo does have an outstanding reputation for safety but the difference (if any) between modern Volvos and other high end cars is not very meaningful. These safety ratings also fail to consider the benefit of a responsive car (BMW/Audi) and its role is avoiding an accident in the first place.

I believe Volvo has done well with US sales recently but my point was simply to suggest that this middling position between the soft luxury of the Japanese competition and the sporting feel of the German competition combined with high ownership costs (in line with the German cars) make Volvos less appealing to a good share of buyers.
Speedtape - The aspirin of aviation!
 
jetstar
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:44 am

In my area of Southwestern Connecticut, Volvo’s are very popular.

I own 2 Volvo’s, a 2004 S-80 T5 AWD and a 2002 XC-70 wagon. I have also owned a 1993 850 and a 1999 S-90 and I have been very happy with my Volvo’s.

I agree with some of the issues with reliability with some models, my 850, a first year production model had its share of problems but the other cars have been very reliable with no or minor problems.

If I wanted to buy a car just based on reliability, I would buy Toyota’s, but they cannot hold a candle to the safety features found in Volvo’s. Japanese cars meet or slightly exceed the safety requirements, but Volvo’s far exceed or have features not even required by regulations like whiplash protection from a rear end collision or the boron steel safety cage surrounding the passenger compartment.

I feel I am driving some of the safest cars on the road today, the S-80 has been rated one of the 3 top safest cars, along with the Mercedes 500 and the Ford Crown Vic. I will gladly trade off some reliability for the safety of a Volvo.
 
deltadc9
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RE: BMW Showing Interest On An Volvo Takeover

Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:53 am

Fords main benifit of buying Volvo remains, the stability control system they need to meet the new regulations coming into effect that require it all all models. It saved the Ford SUVs
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny

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