jim
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Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:26 pm

Hello all,
Once again I am turning to the forum to help prove or disprove something else I was made to read regarding 9/11. Supposedly a DAL captain named Pat Gilmore posted a story about how Mohamed Atta rode jumpseat on his airplane from BWI to ATL a few weeks before 9/11. I checked snopes and did a search here, but I found nothing really in either place. Does anyone here have a comment or proof one way or another?
Thanks again,
Jim
 
artsyman
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:26 pm

 
georgebush
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:44 pm

But the question.... Should We believe this??
Al Gore invented global warming.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 2):
Should We believe this??

I have a very hard time believing. Was Atta an airline employee at all? If not, I really have a hard time believing this!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:03 pm

So this pilot had suspicions that Atta had faked his way into the cockpit, and admitted to receiving "many security alerts" in the previous year about stolen uniforms, but didn't say anything to anyone until after the events of 9/11? Even if Atta had the proper documentation to gain access to the cockpit, it doesn't sound plausible that he wouldn't report someone so suspicious.
International Homo of Mystery
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:12 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):

While I agree with you, if he was really suspicious he should have denied Atta any entry into the cockpit and reported him to the F.A.A. and/or AA.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
jwenting
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:16 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 3):
I have a very hard time believing. Was Atta an airline employee at all? If not, I really have a hard time believing this!

at the time there was no rule stating you had to be an airline employee to get a cockpit visit and spend time in the jumpseat.
Anyone who could smoothtalk an F/A and show an interest in the work (especially young people claiming they were interested in getting a job as a pilot and were in flight training, the latter being certainly true for Atta) could get in, sometimes there were queues.

So it's quite possible Atta made it into a cockpit to see what things were like in there, it's even possible he made it into that pilot's cockpit.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
if he was really suspicious he should have denied Atta any entry into the cockpit and reported him to the F.A.A. and/or AA.

I doubt he'd come across as suspicious. He was a model student, apparently a well integrating foreigner in the US on a student visa.
And what does all this have to do with Alcoholics Anonymous?
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AeroWesty
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 6):
I doubt he'd come across as suspicious. He was a model student, apparently a well integrating foreigner in the US on a student visa.

You should read the link, Capt. Gilmore had a number of suspicions about him during the flight.

Below is a link to a blog entry where Capt. Gilmore, or someone posing as him, has responded to critics of his e-mail, including the admission that he got one of the facts wrong, his claim that you have to be a U.S. citizen to hold an Airline Transport Pilot rating. (You'd think he'd know this stuff better.)

http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com...dodged-a-bullet,-re-United-93.html
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Jim (Thread starter):
Does anyone here have a comment or proof one way or another?

He's dead, Jim.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
N231YE
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 6):
And what does all this have to do with Alcoholics Anonymous?

Hover your mouse pointer over the AA and see what happens.
 
Flyer732
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 6):
at the time there was no rule stating you had to be an airline employee to get a cockpit visit and spend time in the jumpseat.
Anyone who could smoothtalk an F/A and show an interest in the work (especially young people claiming they were interested in getting a job as a pilot and were in flight training, the latter being certainly true for Atta) could get in, sometimes there were queues.

In the US it wasn't possible during flight even before 9/11. Hasn't been possible in years and years and years.
 
bagpiper
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 10):
In the US it wasn't possible during flight even before 9/11. Hasn't been possible in years and years and years.

I got in on a DL flight in '99, but only for 10 minutes or so.

But then I was a cute little kid that loved airplanes. And the stewardess gave me two extra bottles of coke, and some extra crackers.  Smile
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 6):
at the time there was no rule stating you had to be an airline employee to get a cockpit visit and spend time in the jumpseat.

Uhhh you sure about that? In the U.S. under FAR part 121 or 65, you must possess a valid commercial pilots or A&P license to gain access to the cockpit during flight. That ALWAYS has been the rule. It may be different in Europe, but not here in the U.S.

Speaking of the new F.A.A. airman's/pilot's licenses, is this why they changed the licenses from the ugly white paper cards to the green plastic credit card type with the F.A.A. hologram logo embossed on it to prevent fraud??

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 6):
And what does all this have to do with Alcoholics Anonymous?

Obviously, you have never studied your two digit IATA airline identifier codes like the rest of us....  sarcastic 
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
hhh you sure about that? In the U.S. under FAR part 121 or 65, you must possess a valid commercial pilots or A&P license to gain access to the cockpit during flight. That ALWAYS has been the rule. It may be different in Europe, but not here in the U.S.

Hmmm back in 1999 in flew (AC mind you) MCO-YYZ and because the flight was 2 over sold (with non-revs) and my mom had more seniority, my mom and I rode the cockpit the whole way, while we boarded in MCO, which would leave me to believe that they would take care of this properly. Have done many other flights in Canada, landing in HNL and in Asia. Of course when 9/11 came around, that changed a lot.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:22 pm

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 13):

I have a hard time believing that, but if it happened it was probably because you were operating under a Canadian flag carrier. Now I question the fact that the flight was from MCO, it should have been operating under the US FAR's. If that is the case...then that could be a violation, that is if your mom isn't cabin crew, dispatcher or A&P for said carrier?? Makes me suspicious who is really sitting up front...and nervous!

When I was working at AS, I asked to sit in the cockpit many times to the captain. Everytime, it's a 'Sorry, the FAR's applies...' when they knew I was a heavy check technician helper based in SEA. Always turned down.

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 13):
Of course when 9/11 came around, that changed a lot.

I'm glad it is the way it is now, seriously! Only certifed personell (pilots, dispatchers and A&P Techs) by the F.A.A. should only be the three authorized 'airmen' in the cockpit during flight, in my opinion. But that is just me.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
jhooper
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 6):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 3):
I have a very hard time believing. Was Atta an airline employee at all? If not, I really have a hard time believing this!

at the time there was no rule stating you had to be an airline employee to get a cockpit visit and spend time in the jumpseat.
Anyone who could smoothtalk an F/A and show an interest in the work (especially young people claiming they were interested in getting a job as a pilot and were in flight training, the latter being certainly true for Atta) could get in, sometimes there were queues.

No ordinary Joe Blow could get into the cockpit before 9/11. Back in 2000 I wrote a nice letter to the VP of Delta asking if it would be a possibility to get an orientation ride up front, and I got back a very nice reply that said "No". Besides, if it were legal, I would have been up there all the time since my dad has been an airline pilot my whole life.

The FAA had a list of approved people who could ride the jumpseat including, but not necessarily limited to, Secret Service Agents, FAA Inspectors, NTSB Investigators, Air Traffic Controllers, Dispatchers, (vaguely) persons approved by the certificate holder, and pilots (of Part 121 / Part 135 carriers). After 9/11, it just became more of a hassle for even legitimate people to ride jumpseat due to the inability to detect fraudulent credentials. For awhile if you were "jumpseating" on an airline other than your own, you had to be seated in the main cabin; not sure if this is still practiced.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
jhooper
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:47 pm

By the way, I've also heard the theory that Atta was on the jumpseat. It certainly would have made his task easier.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 15):
No ordinary Joe Blow could get into the cockpit before 9/11. Back in 2000 I wrote a nice letter to the VP of Delta asking if it would be a possibility to get an orientation ride up front, and I got back a very nice reply that said "No". Besides, if it were legal, I would have been up there all the time since my dad has been an airline pilot my whole life.

 checkmark  Thanks for helping me prove my point!
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planespotting
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 10):
In the US it wasn't possible during flight even before 9/11. Hasn't been possible in years and years and years.

It was possible - but you had to posses a Commercial Pilots License - but that was it. One of my old flight instructors sweet talked the Captain on one of his flights back in 2000 and got to ride up front in an MD-88.

And just for FYI -

You don't need to have a Commercial Pilots License now to get on the jumpseat - but you have to have authorization from the Chief Pilot of the airline. Basically, any airline employee can get on - with a permission letter from the right person.

Gary Kelly can jumpseat on any Southwest flight he wants to, but he doesn't have a CPL.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:21 pm

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 18):
It was possible - but you had to posses a Commercial Pilots License

They were not the only ones. A&P's, Dispatchers, ATC and FAA Inspectors were allowed.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 18):
You don't need to have a Commercial Pilots License now to get on the jumpseat - but you have to have authorization from the Chief Pilot of the airline. Basically, any airline employee can get on - with a permission letter from the right person.

I disagree, that is not necessarly true, even before 9/11. A CSR would never be allowed to fly jumpseat in the cockpit.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 18):
Gary Kelly can jumpseat on any Southwest flight he wants to, but he doesn't have a CPL.

Thats ONE exception, he is the CEO of WN. He can do anything he wants.

I should add that each airline has its own cockpit jumpseat authorization policy. All the airlines I've worked for had the same rules written, but not verbatium. CSR's, rampers were not allowed to occupy the jumpseat in the cockpit for any reason during flight.

Now, speaking of F/A's, my feeling is that they have no business being up there for any reason, they're job does not include screwing around up front. They are not, in my opinion, certified for upfront travel, they are not techinicans, pilots. They dont know how to fly a plane, turn on electronics, land or do emergency procedures, etc etc. But that is just me. When I see F/A's up flying up front in a jumpseat, I cringe. If they are deadheading to work or going home, they do it on their own time with space permitting..... The cockpit is not a playground!
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Alias1024
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RE: Did 9/11 Hijacker Atta Ever Fly Jumpseat?

Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:42 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Quoting Planespotting (Reply 18):
You don't need to have a Commercial Pilots License now to get on the jumpseat - but you have to have authorization from the Chief Pilot of the airline. Basically, any airline employee can get on - with a permission letter from the right person.

I disagree, that is not necessarly true, even before 9/11. A CSR would never be allowed to fly jumpseat in the cockpit.

You guys are both sort of correct. The applicable FAR is 121.547 and states among other things that a person may be admitted to the flight deck if:
(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.

If the airline can get the FAA administrator sign off on it, they could put Ronald McDonald in the jumpseat. FAA, airline representative, and Captain all have to say yes. Many airlines have had internship programs post 9/11 which had jumpseating as a perk. After all, what better way for aspiring airline pilots to learn, than to observe actual flight deck operations.

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 15):
For awhile if you were "jumpseating" on an airline other than your own, you had to be seated in the main cabin; not sure if this is still practiced.

Most US airlines again allow jumpseating by other airline pilots, but only if they are CASS approved.
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