Beaucaire
Topic Author
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Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:48 pm

Gaza is drifting rapidly in complete chaos with more than 18 killed within 24 hours..
Open civil war has erupted between Hamas and Fatah supporters,and no hope for an end of war is in sight.
While some say, they just get what they deserve,I have the hopeless ,helpless victims of this madness in my mind.
As usual,the women ,children ,sick and politically un-associated parties pay a heavy price.
I don't take any party for any of the fraction,since the violence comes from both sides.
May wisdom prevail in this miserable strip of land...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
cfalk
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:58 pm

The more hindsight you have, the more brilliant Ariel Sharon seems to be. He realized that the Palestinians just can't help but want to blow someone up, and as long as Israel was among them, they would be the target. Pull out of Gaza, and they'll start killing each other - an eminantly better solution for the Israelis and pretty much everyone else.

The scary part is if the Palestinians somehow stop fighting amongst themselves and point back on their neighbors...
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:38 pm

It's always the women and children and old folks, Beaucaire.

They're always the ones who have to pick up the mess the street fighting men make.

In a sense the entire ruckus was predictable, but saying that doesn't make it any less horrifying.

There has to be a fundamental change of heart somewhere, somehow. I don't have a clue as to what that would look like, except that maybe it would be a transformation of the heart similar to that which overtook one Tampa Red, a/k/a Malcolm X shortly before he died or maybe that of Saul on the mean highway to Tarsus. Maybe the women have to say to the street fighting men "Enough! No more of our children will you take."
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
beyauty
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:51 am

You all seem (as most) to completely miss the point and the roots of the most recent wave of violence in Gaza. Making asinine remarks like

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 1):
He realized that the Palestinians just can't help but want to blow someone up

does not only show utter contempt against the Palestinians, but shows complete ignorance of the facts. When you have essentially a giant prison with a density of almost 11,000/square mile, occupied by increasingly large population of young people with astronomical unemployment rates, being denied their basic rights of self determination, freedom of movement, inability to conduct normal business and run their economy without restrictions from the occupying Israelis, being under constant threat of violence from the Israeli army ( and previously Jewish settlers all of whom were armed and dangerous), what would you expect? Would you expect that the young generation would grow up to lead a normal lifestyle similar to anyone else living in a normal environment free of the threats that I just listed? Don't you realize that the Palestinians living in Gaza are beyond the boiling point with their equal frustration and hatred of the Palestinian leadership, Arab leadership and of course Israeli, American and Europeans leaderships, that have failed them miserably. I can assure you, that if you were to place any Westerner in a similar situation as those of those living in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, you would see much worse reactions. The sad reality is that Israel's haven't realize that after more than 50 years of occupation that occupation and suppression of the basic rights of Palestinians will never win them piece but will breed more and more violence. So, unless you lived all your life in the hell hole called Gaza, please refrain from making judgements and asinine remarks.
 
jfk69
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
You all seem (as most) to completely miss the point and the roots of the most recent wave of violence in Gaza. Making asinine remarks like



Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
and previously Jewish settlers all of whom were armed and dangerous)

Yeah...really...Every single one? Men women and children?

Pot, meet Kettle.
 
mham001
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:02 am

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):



Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
does not only show utter contempt against the Palestinians, but shows complete ignorance of the facts. When you have essentially a giant prison with a density of almost 11,000/square mile, occupied by increasingly large population of young people with astronomical unemployment rates, being denied their basic rights of self determination, freedom of movement, inability to conduct normal business and run their economy without restrictions from the occupying Israelis, being under constant threat of violence from the Israeli army ( and previously Jewish settlers all of whom were armed and dangerous), what would you expect? Would you expect that the young generation would grow up to lead a normal lifestyle similar to anyone else living in a normal environment free of the threats that I just listed?

I suppose all that would explain why they are now fighting their Lebanese hosts too.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting BEYauty:

You all seem (as most) to completely miss the point and the roots of the most recent wave of violence in Gaza.

Yup.... It's the fault of Israel... even when Israel isn't even there...

Wow, post# 3 for a complete de-rail.

[Edited 2007-06-13 02:11:24]

[Edited 2007-06-13 02:12:29]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Dougloid
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:20 am

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
does not only show utter contempt against the Palestinians, but shows complete ignorance of the facts. When you have essentially a giant prison with a density of almost 11,000/square mile, occupied by increasingly large population of young people with astronomical unemployment rates, being denied their basic rights of self determination, freedom of movement, inability to conduct normal business and run their economy without restrictions from the occupying Israelis, being under constant threat of violence from the Israeli army ( and previously Jewish settlers all of whom were armed and dangerous), what would you expect?

With all due respect the violence you're seeing is not a product of external forces but is civil war in Gaza, and it is between Fatah and Hamas. It is violence being committed by Palestinians against Palestinians for reasons that are not at all clear to anyone on the outside. It is a turf war on a grand scale that is worthy of the worst that the Crips and the Bloods have to offer.

My sympathies are not with the street fighting men-they're getting the world they want.

Come to think of it, the way a person lives their life is a statement about the kind of world they want their kids to inherit, isn't it?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
scottieprecord
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:23 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Yup.... It's the fault of Israel... even when Israel isn't even there...

What is wrong with you people? Have you never been exposed to the wisdom of Mel Gibson? It's obvious!!! Jews are the cause of EVERY war! duh... c'mon now.

Seriously though, let 'em fight. Maybe that'll get rid of some of the frustration that BEYauty was talkin about.

-Mike
 
beyauty
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:49 pm

Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 8):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Yup.... It's the fault of Israel... even when Israel isn't even there...

What is wrong with you people? Have you never been exposed to the wisdom of Mel Gibson? It's obvious!!! Jews are the cause of EVERY war! duh... c'mon now.

Seriously though, let 'em fight. Maybe that'll get rid of some of the frustration that BEYauty was talkin about.

-Mike



Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 8):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
Yup.... It's the fault of Israel... even when Israel isn't even there...

What is wrong with you people? Have you never been exposed to the wisdom of Mel Gibson? It's obvious!!! Jews are the cause of EVERY war! duh... c'mon now.

Seriously though, let 'em fight. Maybe that'll get rid of some of the frustration that BEYauty was talkin about.

-Mike

Nope, it's the fault of Palestinians, as they are all a bunch of deranged maniacs who practice wanton violence for absolutely no reason, and it has nothing to do with anyone or anything else that has happened to them during the past 50 years... No wonder the situation is so hopeless, it's people with this type of thinking that would make peace an almost impossibility.
 
scottieprecord
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:58 pm

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 9):
Nope, it's the fault of Palestinians, as they are all a bunch of deranged maniacs who practice wanton violence for absolutely no reason, and it has nothing to do with anyone or anything else that has happened to them during the past 50 years... No wonder the situation is so hopeless, it's people with this type of thinking that would make peace an almost impossibility.

Palestine has had a rough past, no doubt. But when they turn on each other, you can't blame forces that aren't even there any more... Responsibility lies with those pulling the trigger.

-Mike
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:15 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 7):
With all due respect the violence you're seeing is not a product of external forces but is civil war in Gaza, and it is between Fatah and Hamas.

Ummm.... Would someone please get a bucket of cold water?



[Edited 2007-06-13 06:18:14]
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
rjpieces
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:24 pm

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
being denied their basic rights of self determination, freedom of movement, inability to conduct normal business and run their economy without restrictions from the occupying Israelis, being under constant threat of violence from the Israeli army ( and previously Jewish settlers all of whom were armed and dangerous),

With all due respect, who denies them their basic rights of self determination? Who curtails their freedom of movement within Gaza? What exactly do the Israelis occupy?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:29 pm

The Kassam Brigades of Hamas seem to gain more strategic positions within Gaza.Currently about 25 Palestinians killed,several public buildings on fire...it's getting from bad to worse...
At this moment it is relatively irrelevant if Israel is indirectly one of the factors that have led to this disaster.
You can blame whoever you want,but the direct responsibility for the situation the Palestinians are in today lies unfortunately with Yassir Arafat,who has denied on at least two occasions major proposals brought forward ,that would have cemented the creation of an independent state.
My support for the Palestinian cause does not prevent me from opening my eyes and stay unbiased as to the main factors of Palestinian misery.
Yes-Israel has a major fault by consistently squeezing the Palestinian population into confinements that are too small and not self-sustainable.Denying the Palestinian population the access to free trade,decent income,movement,infrastructure and work in Israel is an aggravating factor.
But Palestinian politicians have done damage to their own cause by supporting unjustifiable attacks on Israeli civilians.
Arafat has been trying to out-smart the rest of the world-by being simultaneously corrupt and narrow-minded.
Mustafa Barguthi,speaker of president Abbas,admitted yesterday the very foundations of a potential State of Palestine are in bits and pieces..
Hamas would never have received the number of votes they got,if the conditions of existence in Gaza would have been more humain.That fact ,even analists in Israel don't deny.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:30 pm

Can't believe the left-wing MEPs are in so severe state of denial that they - given the situation - seriously think about resuming the EU's "Sponsor Your Terrorist" program.

"A growing number of European Parliament members are demanding the European Union recognize the Palestinian unity government and resume direct financial aid payments frozen more than a year ago."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...GEN-EU-Parliament-Palestinians.php
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:36 pm

Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 10):
forces that aren't even there any more..

-
The Gaza-Territory still has all its borders tightly controlled by the Israeli armed forces, and I here not only mean the ones with Israel-mainland but also the sea-borders and the border towards Egypt. So that "they ARE there" still.
-

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
drifting rapidly in complete chaos

to be to the point, the territory is drifting into the delayed showdown, Arafat did avoid over many years. His successor as PA President now has the job to pull through. I in fact fear that the mess will spill over into the WestBank before long.  Sad
-


Quoting RJpieces (Reply 12):
With all due respect, who denies them their basic rights of self determination? Who curtails their freedom of movement within Gaza? What exactly do the Israelis occupy?

Well, you are quite close to the essence. An Arabic teacher I had for a while, and who had grown up in the Gaza-Territory, told me the blunt truth and that is that the "Gaza-Strip" simply is a big slum, and has been so for decades. The man joined the GUPS who helped him to study in Cairo, and so is happy to have got out from the area.
-

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 14):
the European Union recognize the Palestinian unity government and resume direct financial aid payments frozen more than a year ago

THIS has nothing to do with support terrorists, but with recognizing a democratically elected government. The problem rather is that this "unity government" has just stopped to exist. Those gentlemen apparently are not really up-to-date.
 
avi
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:42 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 15):
The Gaza-Territory still has all its borders tightly controlled by the Israeli armed forces, and I here not only mean the ones with Israel-mainland but also the sea-borders and the border towards Egypt.

What a brutal, disgusting, slander, mudslinging lie.
There is not a single Israeli soldier on the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. Not a single one.



BEYauty,
You and people like ME AVN FAN represent the Palestinian tragedy in the Gaza Strip. You (and the Palestinian) didn't change diskette almost 2 years ago when 38 years of Israeli occupation ended (and not more than 50 years as you said, don't blame Israel for the years they lived under Egyptian occupation).
Everything else derivatives from that.

The funny thing is that you blame people to shows complete ignorance of the facts
Long live the B747
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting Avi (Reply 16):
on the border between the Gaza Strip

and what about an open Seaport for Gaza, NOT controlled by Israel ? and about the re-opening of Gaza-Airport ?
-
and here a link : www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=8670 and a quote :

.........................................................................................................................................................

the Army will continue to strictly control all Palestinian movement. Below is an update on the status of coordination with Israel.

Rafah Crossing Point

Background: The Rafah crossing point is the only Palestinian access point into Egypt. Although the crossing point is situated more than 6 kilometers away from the border with Israel, Israel maintains complete control over Palestinian movement (both people and goods) at this and every other entry and exit point. Under Israeli orders, an estimated 700 Palestinians per day are allowed to leave the Gaza Strip (to Egypt) and the vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza are denied the ability to travel. (An estimated 90 percent of Palestinians in Gaza are routinely denied the ability to travel and Israel currently imposes travel restrictions on Palestinian males aged 16 to 35).

While Israel claims that it is “disengaging” from the Occupied Gaza Strip, it wishes to continue to control the movement of Palestinians in and out of the Occupied Gaza Strip, while removing its presence from the Rafah crossing point and the Philadelphi belt. Accordingly, Israel seeks to move the Rafah crossing point to Kerem Shalom – inside Israel located at the southeast corner of the Gaza Strip, bordering both Egypt and Israel – where it can control all Palestinian movement.

Palestinian Position: Palestinians should be granted complete freedom of movement, without interference by Israel. Accordingly, Palestinians are opposed to the movement of the crossing point to Kerem Shalom as this only serves to cement Israeli control over Palestinians. If Israel truly seeks to “disengage” from the Gaza Strip, it should cease its control over the Occupied Gaza Strip.

Status: Israel continues to insist on the movement of the crossing point to Kerem Shalom despite Palestinian and Egyptian objections to the contrary.

Customs Envelope

Background: The Palestinian Authority and Israel currently maintain a customs arrangement regulating the movement of goods. The Paris Protocol, signed in 1994 and ratified in 1995, created one “customs envelope” in Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territory (“OPT”), whereby goods entering into the envelope are taxed only once and goods within the envelope are not taxed. For example, goods entering the Gaza Strip from Egypt are taxed upon entry but if transported to Israel or to the West Bank are not taxed again. The Paris Protocol also specified which goods could be imported into OPT. Owing to Israel’s control over all border crossings, Israel has maintained control over the Palestinian economy: Palestinian goods are often detained for weeks or months at Israeli crossing points and Israel denies the free import of goods (including those included in the Paris Protocol). Furthermore, Palestinian businesspeople have often resorted to using Israeli intermediaries to import and export goods. Accordingly, tariffs that would normally go to the Palestinian Authority go to Israel via the Israeli intermediary. Nonetheless, the Palestinian economy can immediately benefit from the Protocol’s proper implementation: if Palestinian goods are allowed to move freely and if the Palestinian Authority receives the tariffs that are withheld by Israel international trade could be improved.

Israel wants to move the crossing point to Kerem Shalom. It wants to maintain Israeli customs officers there to ensure that only specified goods are imported into Gaza and thereby control the Palestinian economy. Otherwise, it has threatened to cancel the customs envelope.

Palestinian Position: The movement of the Rafah crossing point to Kerem Shalom will ensure Gaza’s continued dependence on Israel, as Israel would continue to control Gaza’s access to and from Egypt and also continue economic control over the area. Furthermore, the movement of the border crossing to Kerem Shalom is not logical: if Israeli customs officials are present in Kerem Shalom, it casts doubt on Israel’s claim that it will allow the Palestinians to freely operate a seaport, for Israeli official will also need to be present at the seaport, situated well within OPT. Therefore, if Israel wishes to maintain the customs union, it welcomes a third party to ensure smooth functioning and transfer of the Rafah crossing point to Palestinian control post evacuation and to monitor customs arrangements. This move would represent an important step towards Gaza’s successful economic recovery following 38 years of Israeli de-development. For more information on the Gazan economy see: Sara Roy, The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development (1995)

Status: Israel has not yet agreed to the presence of a third party to monitor customs and continues to insist on the movement of the crossing point to Kerem Shalom.
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.......................................................................................................................
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to blame Egypt, who lost the territory to Israel 40 years ago is a bit cheap and a bad excuse.
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----------------------------------------------------
and things like this : Israel seeks to move the Rafah crossing point to Kerem Shalom – inside Israel located at the southeast corner of the Gaza Strip, bordering both Egypt and Israel – where it can control all Palestinian movement ----- is just dirty tricks applied
-
So much for realities
 
avi
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:57 pm

Israel saw the future. We asked for European control (and Israeli monitoring from a distance but with no option to do anything) because we knew that what is going on today will happen (and tomorrow it will slide into Israel). Someone believed it will be possible to prevent it, he was wrong.

If the Palestinians were busy in the past 2 years to build their country (and I'm not talking about the time since the creation of the Palestinian Authority in 1994) maybe something good could come out of this, but they had something else on their mind so …
Long live the B747
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting Avi (Reply 18):
the Palestinians were busy in the past 2 years

-
they in the past 2 years had Hamas in power. Democratically elected, yes, but thanks to a widespread protest vote. That they realize that they are to lose the next elections, they possibly now try to grasp full power .
 
rjpieces
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 15):
The Gaza-Territory still has all its borders tightly controlled by the Israeli armed forces, and I here not only mean the ones with Israel-mainland but also the sea-borders and the border towards Egypt. So that "they ARE there" still.

Well Gaza does border on Israel, so people like you will have to accept that there will always be an Israeli presence on Gaza's borders...That is 100% legitimate any way you cut it. It is nobody's fault that Gaza is collapsing except the Palestinians themselves (as usual).
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
avi
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Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:27 am

RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 19):
they in the past 2 years had Hamas in power. Democratically elected, yes, but thanks to a widespread protest vote.

Amazing, we agree on something.
There is no question the Fatah brought it on themselves (with no connection to Israel).
Long live the B747
 
baroque
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
I can assure you, that if you were to place any Westerner in a similar situation as those of those living in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, you would see much worse reactions.

Excellent post BEY. When the details of the border as set out in post 17 are disputed or not understood, there seems not very much room for discussion.

Interpretation of a civil war in Gaza as being a favourable outcome for anyone is extremely short sighted.
 
cairo
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:58 am

I would like to see the quartet (US, EU, Russian, UN) step in and solve this problem immediately and with decisive force, funding and other action.

This won't happen because the US is so tied up in Iraq that Bush is practically impotent to do anything else, the EU is more concerned with growing the EU and integrating its new states, and I think Russia is just content to let everyone else in the world kill each other. The UN obviously can't do anything without at least 2 of the other quartet members helping.

I predict this will spread into the West Bank, more attacks on Israel will occur, Israel will bomb and kill some more Palestinians, and in general we will continue the same bloody history that has been going on since Israel was founded at the end of WW2.

Could it be that there are powerful forces that are happy with a perpetual conflict?

Cairo
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 20):
Gaza does border on Israel,

Gaza has a border with Egypt, and a considerable coastline
-
 
andessmf
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 23):
Could it be that there are powerful forces that are happy with a perpetual conflict?

Unfortunately, as with many hard to die issues, I believe you are correct.

After all, for some, the ending of this issue would finally force other problems to the surface, problems that up to now have been ignored.

I don't think they are happy with keeping this conflict alive, but that in the interest of keeping their power, they do.
 
baroque
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 23):
Could it be that there are powerful forces that are happy with a perpetual conflict?

I fear that throw away line/thought might be close to the truth. And as sure as night follows day, analysts in two or three years time will bemoan this attitude and its unexpected outcomes.

I just bought a newly published book today:
Unintended Consequences: The United States at War, K J Hagan and I J Bickerton, Reaktion Books, London.
Obviously this civil war will not be in any later update, but it will probably qualify for a similar study of miscellaneous conflicts. One thing is certain, there will be unintended consequences for all parties, the warring Palestinians, Israel and the Quartet - that lot give a new and bad meaning to the word quartet!
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:40 am

If you add today's horrible killing of 10 Lebanese in Beirut -including a prominent politician- you wonder what else this region has to bear in pain,horror and disregard... ( Bomb Rocks Beirut Waterfront (by RJpieces Jun 13 2007 in Non Aviation))
The "Big" four seem to repeat the same useless diplomatic cinemas without any real intention to change things.
Europe is as much to blame as the rest of the world and once more demonstrates it's absolute inability to act as one political entity.The European parliament is a useless-chat-club for elderly politicians that nobody wants any longer in their own countries.
Solana is just ridiculous in his "efforts" to suggest and implement solutions.Economic interests are overriding any true search for change and permanent settlement of solutions.
Sure -you can always argue that ultimately it is the responsibility of the Palestinians themselves.But as BEYauty has brilliantly outlined,the Gaza and West-bank populations have just reached a point of no-return,where sheer anger,dispair,no hope will create suicide candidates in large quantities.They have nothing to lose anyhow- what's their perspective ?
Even other Arab nations don't seem to care too much,other than breeding the obligatory hypocrite support-statements.
Egypt and the Arab ligue - no real action neither .( the Egyptians do what the Yankees tell them to do anyhow..)
The Chinese -too buzy growing their economy..they couldn't care less and focus on Africa
Russia - tied up with "Busyness",regional conflicts and economic growth..
The US -burned their fingers in Iraq and don't really have a Palestine strategy anyhow -nothing that would put any pressure in Israel would ever pass the state-departments door....
It's close to hopeless but maybe some wise,curageous,peace-loving politicians in Israel and palestine will eventually try to really move forward.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
rjpieces
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 27):
It's close to hopeless but maybe some wise,curageous,peace-loving politicians in Israel and palestine will eventually try to really move forward.

Honestly, if you are in Israel's position right now, what would you do? The truth of the matter is that there is very little Israel can do to stop a civil war in Gaza other than arming the shit out of Fatah, which would probably backfire on them anyway...So what do you do if you were the Israeli leader right now?

As for the Palestinian politicians (Mr. Abbas, etc), Israel has already warned him of several assassination attempts which likely resulted in him not being murdered...He is also in a horrible position, as there is not much he could do at this point...

Yes, it's a horrible situation, but it was inevitable once Israel withdrew from Gaza. For years people like yourself called for an end to the Israeli occupation, and now that they finally ended their occupation of Gaza, you are still blaming Israel for what happens there. So what exactly do you propose?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Pope
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:50 am

Quoting BEYauty (Reply 3):
American and Europeans leaderships, that have failed them miserably.

It only took 3 replies before the US got blamed for this. I'm surprised someone hasn't blamed GWB personally for this.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 23):
I would like to see the quartet (US, EU, Russian, UN) step in and solve this problem immediately and with decisive force, funding and other action.

I love it. One minute people are saying the US shouldn't "step in" and intervene in the foreign affairs of other countries, the next second the US must act with "decisive force, funding and other action." If Iraq has taught us anything is that people have to themselves want to be free and peaceful. Lasting freedom and peace cannot be imposed on people by a foreign power.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):
fear that throw away line/thought might be close to the truth.

They've been fighting for so long that it's become an instint or habit to them. I swear that peace makes them anxious and jumpy. Maybe fighting has become natural and second-nature to them.

It must be awful sitting around the television in evening instead of throwing rocks at soldiers or stuffing explosives into a canvas bag. It must feel like hell. I'll bet it's just like trying to quit smoking. The minutes must seem like hours.

Maybe some addiction professionals need to be called in to try group counseling. Maybe that will break the cycle of violence. But then, maybe the group therapy session will escalate into a ten year war.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
cairo
Posts: 889
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
I love it. One minute people are saying the US shouldn't "step in" and intervene in the foreign affairs of other countries, the next second the US must act with "decisive force, funding and other action." If Iraq has taught us anything is that people have to themselves want to be free and peaceful. Lasting freedom and peace cannot be imposed on people by a foreign power

Fine, that means cutting off all support for Israel, which I definitely suggest.

I do actually agree with your sentiment - we should be non interventionist. BUT, given the framework of the situation - bought off politicians in Washington, the billions of dollars and US weaponry sent to Israel not ending anytime soon, thus the entire Muslim world blaming the US for Israel's presence and actions....given all that, THEN, the US should intervene in this Gaza matter specifically and in solving the Palestinian matter overall.

I agree with you in an ideal world - the US should have nothing to do with ANY country in the ME, but if it is going to get involved and therfore make its own citizens target of Muslim rage, then the US should get involved entirely and solve the Palestinian problem ASAP.

Cairo
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
I love it. One minute people are saying the US shouldn't "step in" and intervene in the foreign affairs of other countries, the next second the US must act with "decisive force, funding and other action." If Iraq has taught us anything is that people have to themselves want to be free and peaceful. Lasting freedom and peace cannot be imposed on people by a foreign power.

Totally agree.

Quoting Cairo (Reply 23):
I would like to see the quartet (US, EU, Russian, UN) step in and solve this problem immediately and with decisive force, funding and other action.

Are you serious? US troops in GAZA? LOL.

Maybe Egypt and some of the immediate Arab neighbors should step in and take care of this! Much of the Arab World has made it perfectly clear about what it thinks of the US "meddling" in other people's business.
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 28):
So what exactly do you propose?

-Move in to stop the killing
-negotiate an immediate cease-fire between the two fractions under Egyptian or Saudi heading
-recognize a state of Palestine even if currently not viable -it takes the wind out of the sails from the hard-liners
and diminishes Hamas claims
-Return the West-banks to allow a true,viable state-entity with free access between West-Bank and Gaza
-resume water supply to Gaza
-re-open the borders for the Palestinians wishing to work in Israel to allow supply of funds
-Europe,the US ,the Arab Ligue and Russia must impose to the future Palestinian parliament the unconditional recognition of Israel
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:33 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 27):
It's close to hopeless but maybe some wise,curageous,peace-loving politicians in Israel and palestine will eventually try to really move forward.

No.

The politicians and leaders have had sixty years and counting to get their asses in gear and ALL any of them have managed to do is worsen an already impossible situation. All they've done is created boom times in the funeral business.

The tools of decision have to be taken away from the men. It's that simple. They've made a balls up since 1948 and they're incapable of coming up with a solution or even a plan to develop a modus vivendi.

Trotting out the same old tired list of demands doesn't begin to address the scope of this mess.

It is about time the women of the region tell the men that they've failed and to GTF out of the road. And tell them they're not going to have any more boys to raise up into street fighting men.

That's what it's going to take. I think they're the only ones who can save Palestine.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
rjpieces
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 34):
It is about time the women of the region tell the men that they've failed and to GTF out of the road. And tell them they're not going to have any more boys to raise up into street fighting men.

That's what it's going to take. I think they're the only ones who can save Palestine.

Think again:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/870671.html
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 35):
Think again:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/....html

That's what I meant when I spoke earlier about no perspectives whatsoever - if they blow themselves up ,die in useless street-fights or are buried under the rubble of a collapsing house shelled by a tank or a laser-bomb.
Only a fast and radical change of living together will stop the vicious circle.At this stage the question of who is guilty for what is secondary - one has to stop the killings for the sake of the children,that will be raised with hatred against anything that does not bear a keffiye.
Israel has no choice as to take up the difficult task to live normally with it's neighbours.The reasoning has to come from Israel,because currently Palestine is not in a position to think clearly.Fingerpointing will not help !
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Pope
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting Cairo (Reply 31):
Fine, that means cutting off all support for Israel, which I definitely suggest.

I do actually agree with your sentiment - we should be non interventionist. BUT, given the framework of the situation - bought off politicians in Washington, the billions of dollars and US weaponry sent to Israel not ending anytime soon, thus the entire Muslim world blaming the US for Israel's presence and actions....given all that, THEN, the US should intervene in this Gaza matter specifically and in solving the Palestinian matter overall.

I agree with you in an ideal world - the US should have nothing to do with ANY country in the ME, but if it is going to get involved and therfore make its own citizens target of Muslim rage, then the US should get involved entirely and solve the Palestinian problem ASAP.

I can't believe you actually wrote this. You agree that the US should have nothing to do with the Middle East and also agree that the US should solve the Palestinian problem. So which one is it? How about just one country in the Middle East actually offer the Palestinian refugees a portion of their country's territory to call their own? The sad truth is that the Palestinian people are a hapless political instrument used by Israel's enemies to stir up trouble. I find it infinitely hypocritical that none of the countries of the Middle East allow their Palestinian "brothers and sisters" free entry into their country. It's even more hypocritical when these same countries criticize the US for its treatment of illegal Mexican immigrants given how they treat Palestinians.

If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times, the US will stop involving itself in world affairs as soon as someone decides that they're up to the task. The problems of the Middle East are primarily a consequence of European involvement in the area. The same can be said for Africa. But where are the Europeans when the shit hits the fan? At the UN arguing about what needs to be done instead of doing anything to solve the problem.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
cairo
Posts: 889
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 38):
I can't believe you actually wrote this. You agree that the US should have nothing to do with the Middle East and also agree that the US should solve the Palestinian problem. So which one is it?

Simultaneously arguing for intervention and non-intervention is not my technique, such as:

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
Lasting freedom and peace cannot be imposed on people by a foreign power.



Quoting Pope (Reply 38):
the US will stop involving itself in world affairs as soon as someone decides that they're up to the task.

My point is that the ideal is non-intervention, and this includes not "helping" Israel, Iraq, Egypt, etc....BUT, given that non-intervention has apparently been rejected as an overall policy, then the US should actively solve the Palestnian problem, which is tied in with every other issue in the Middle East America is allegedly trying to solve.

Cairo
 
Dougloid
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 35):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 34):
It is about time the women of the region tell the men that they've failed and to GTF out of the road. And tell them they're not going to have any more boys to raise up into street fighting men.

That's what it's going to take. I think they're the only ones who can save Palestine.

Think again:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/....html

That doesn't detract from my theory. The women are the only people who haven't had a major hand in fucking things up on a countrywide level. Let's hear from them.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 36):
Israel has no choice as to take up the difficult task to live normally with it's neighbours.The reasoning has to come from Israel,because currently Palestine is not in a position to think clearly.Fingerpointing will not help !

I don't think so. Palestine has to get its own shit together on its own, by itself. When they do that they will find good people to work with on the other side.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:26 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 28):
are in Israel's position

Israel and Egypt very simply canNOT live with a Hamasistan, and therefore in the end will have to get in, in whatever way. The world then will condemn both for actions against this and that.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 48):
recognizing a democratically elected government
... staffed by Hamas.

true. THIS in short is the problem. Hamas since those elections unfortunately has proven to be unable to develop into a useful political party and to produce a government able to find solutions in regard to politics, economy, infrastructure .
 
SkyTeam777
Posts: 54
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:26 pm

RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:37 pm

It's interesting. Hamas and Haman are almost the same word.
Making the SkyTeam the best place in the air.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:05 pm

Quoting SkyTeam777 (Reply 52):
Haman

I suppose you mean "hamam" ?
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:33 pm

In an interview with the Focus-Magazin (Germany ) Professor of Politology Helga Baumgarten ( Birzeit University ) suggested the rapid disintegration of Gaza and the rise of Hamas are clearly a direct result of the west (EEC,US,Israel )
and their persistent refusal to consider Hamas elected members of Parliament as valid counter-parts.The unilateral recognition of Fatah as sole representatives acceptable for the west are a big mistake.Hamas will slowly open for Al Qaida type philosophies and worsen the situation.
The US persistent refusal to deal with anybody even remotely associated to hamas was the wrong strategy.
Baumgarten lives and works in Ramallah since many years.
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:43 pm

Quoting Cairo (Reply 23):
Could it be that there are powerful forces that are happy with a perpetual conflict?

Sadly, I believe you might be right.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 28):
Yes, it's a horrible situation, but it was inevitable once Israel withdrew from Gaza. For years people like yourself called for an end to the Israeli occupation, and now that they finally ended their occupation of Gaza, you are still blaming Israel for what happens there. So what exactly do you propose?

Israel is always going to be blamed for everything that is wrong in the middle east. It's much easier to blame them instead of looking in the mirror.

Quoting Pope (Reply 29):
I love it. One minute people are saying the US shouldn't "step in" and intervene in the foreign affairs of other countries, the next second the US must act with "decisive force, funding and other action." If Iraq has taught us anything is that people have to themselves want to be free and peaceful. Lasting freedom and peace cannot be imposed on people by a foreign power.

LOL, I've really had a good laugh reading all the "someone must intercede" posts in this thread. As you have noted, intervention in Iraq has been real successful at stopping the violence there.  Wink

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 33):
-Move in to stop the killing

And just how will "moving in" stop the violence? Seems to me that when Israel occupied Gaza, there was a fair amount of violence that occurred on a daily basis.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
windshear
Posts: 2258
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 4:45 pm

RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:13 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 53):
I suppose you mean "hamam" ?

Oh I would have said "Haram" Big grin

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:19 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 55):
And just how will "moving in" stop the violence? Seems to me that when Israel occupied Gaza, there was a fair amount of violence that occurred on a daily basis.

There is a distinct difference between occupation and humanitarian-security relevant interventions.
Either some people are just incapable to try to understand what most of the Palestinians are going through or post threads just to provoke ....
The time has run out already since some months to recover the situation in Palestine.
The usual replies that Palestinians are basically a people that breed just suicide candidates and want the destruction of Israel is just not good enough -
Those people face -since many years -confinement in camps either in Lebanon or prison-like territorial strips in Israel/Palestine without any serious hope to move into a viable situation.The more you try to repress them,the worse it gets!
There's a lot of politicians who fully understand the scope of the issue but who don't want to move for the obvious reasons.( ...the status quo fits their political tasks very nicely..) -and that also includes Arab monarchs..
Palestinians are considered as a disposable entity on the world-politics chess-game !
They have no strategic value,no resource other than their brains or hatred,nor commercial value ...
Permanent finger-pointing by using the old,useless arguments will not help - I'm afraid Israel wil pay a heavy price .
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
PAHS200
Posts: 494
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:38 pm

more bad news:

"Hamas Forces Overrun Fatah Organization in Gaza"

"One witness, Jihad Abu Ayad, said Hamas gunmen were bringing Preventive Security men out of the building and executing them in the street."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,282195,00.html

Michael
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:39 pm

Quoting Windshear (Reply 56):
I suppose you mean "hamam" ?
-
Oh I would have said "Haram" Big grin

-
I rather see him in a hamam than in a haram !  rotfl 
 
Emirates773ER
Posts: 1318
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RE: Gaza Sinks Deeper And Deeper Into Chaos...

Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:46 am

Just in....

Ramallah, West Bank: Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas for the first time Thursday ordered his elite presidential guard to strike back against Hamas militants bent on besieging his Gaza City compound.

Previously, Abbas of Fatah had told the guard to maintain a defensive posture at his house and office in Gaza.

Abbas was in the West Bank town of Ramallah when he handed down the order.


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