johnboy
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Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:29 pm

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...614.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

So gay marriage continues in Massachusetts.

Woohoo!

"We have a situation here where the politicians have spoken but the people have not," Mineau said. "We have a highly energized base in this state of aroused citizens who, time and time again, have tried to vote on this crucial issue of the definition of marriage, and they have been denied."

Wow, "aroused" citizens, add that to the always humorous "ramming it down our throats" argument -- if I didn't know better, I'd swear these 'phobes had some strange psychosexual issues swirling around in those tiny little minds.

In any case, get over it.

Congratulations, Massachusetts!
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:36 pm

Quoting Johnboy (Thread starter):
Congratulations, Massachusetts!

And guess what, since gay marriage was legalized in MA, the sky didn't fall, Armageddon didn't materialize, and from the latest available figures, the divorce rate in MA is still the lowest in the nation.

Hallelujah, Amen, and all that.  champagne 
International Homo of Mystery
 
PLANAR
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:49 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
And guess what, since gay marriage was legalized in MA, the sky didn't fall, Armageddon didn't materialize...

Amen to that!
Congratulations MA....
Flim-Flam Balderdash...
 
mbmbos
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:24 pm

Woo-hoo! I am really proud to say that I'm a citizen of Massachusetts.

I'm also glad this process is over.
 
mt99
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
And guess what, since gay marriage was legalized in MA, the sky didn't fall, Armageddon didn't materialize, and from the latest available figures, the divorce rate in MA is still the lowest in the nation.

I wonder if the sky has fallen or Armageddon ensued in any other countries where this has happened..
Step into my office, baby
 
TSS
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:40 pm

Hmmm...these Bee Gees lyrics seem eerily appropriate:

Feel I'm goin back to Massachusetts,
Somethings telling me I must go home.
And the lights all went out in Massachusetts
The day I left her standing on her own.

Tried to hitch a ride to San Francisco,
Gotta do the things I wanna do.
And the lights all went out in Massachusetts
They brought me back to see my way with you.

Talk about the life in Massachusetts,
Speak about the people I have seen,
And the lights all went out in Massachusetts
And massachusetts is one place I have seen.

I will remember Massachusetts...


Congratulations Massachusetts!
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:55 pm

Now if we could do the same in Michibama! I believe that our Prop 2 (2004) will be overturned and we won't be seen as the new Segregationist State that we've become.


Btw...since the MA gay marriage issue has gone into effect, how many plural marriages, marriages between men and goats, etc as the far right warned have actually taken place?
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:00 am

Here's the NY Times version of the story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/15/us...15gay.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=slogin

I'll make a couple of points:

1. I am very pleased with the outcome
2. It seems that the local "family" group is up in arms because they had some 170,000 signatures to repeal the right to gay marriage.
3. Many of the politicians who were previously against gay marriage changed their mind after meeting with a number of couples.
4. While I am pleased with the result, it seems that this could be construed as another example of politicians doing what THEY think best despite what many of their constituents want.
5. I may agree with the political majority vote on this, but are fully happy when politicians do what they want and not what their constituents want just because we agree with the outcome?

Those of you who know me, know that I support gay rights. I'm just trying to ask some tough questions.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
mbmbos
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
...how many plural marriages, marriages between men and goats, etc as the far right warned have actually taken place?

I can't find the quote but I think I read in the Boston Globe that there have been about 8500 gay marriages since legalization.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 7):
2. It seems that the local "family" group is up in arms because they had some 170,000 signatures to repeal the right to gay marriage.

It should be noted that about 40,000 of those signatures were thrown out because they were fraudulently obtained (a common ruse was to invite grocery shoppers to sign a petition allowing liquor to be sold in grocery stores but they were actually signing the anti-gay marriage amendment petition).

Also, another little anecdote that I find interesting. Yesterday, my partner was walking near the state house during his lunch hour. He saw a woman carrying a sign stating "Gay Marriage Hurts Children" and he couldn't resist. He turned and asked her what she meant by that. She explained that she didn't speak english. He asked her if she knew what her sign said. She shrugged.

Not sure what that was about but my best guess is that she was hired to carry a sign and be an anti-gay marriage protester. If so, that's pretty weak and pathetic.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 7):
4. While I am pleased with the result, it seems that this could be construed as another example of politicians doing what THEY think best despite what many of their constituents want.

Less than 25% of the legislators voted for the anti-gay marriage amendment. Perhaps so few voted for it because they have to consider their constituents and how they will vote in the next election.

I will also point out that polls in the state have indicated that while a hefty minority of citizens feel uncomfortable about gay marriage (the majority in this state are pro gay marriage), they do not want to institute a constitutional amendment that would take away rights from gay people. And even more adamantly they do not want to revoke gay marriages that have already occurred.

So, bearing that in mind, the legislators are reflecting the will of the people and saving us from a very expensive general ballot election on the issue.

Also, with most state constitutions and indeed, the U.S. constitution, the bar is set very high for adding or changing amendments. The spirit behind this is to prevent short-term political trends from undoing/redoing the fundamental architecture of governance.

And frankly, is getting a 25% vote from legislators in order to put an amendment on the ballot a terribly high bar?
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:12 am

Thanks for the responses and information, MBMBOS.

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 8):
It should be noted that about 40,000 of those signatures were thrown out because they were fraudulently obtained (a common ruse was to invite grocery shoppers to sign a petition allowing liquor to be sold in grocery stores but they were actually signing the anti-gay marriage amendment petition).

As reprehensible as that is, it also smacks of the stupidity of the general public not to read what they were signing, or, to sign something that did not explicitly state its purpose. You know someone is going to ask for a link to confirm that, so I'll save them the trouble. Any source?

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 8):
Also, another little anecdote that I find interesting. Yesterday, my partner was walking near the state house during his lunch hour. He saw a woman carrying a sign stating "Gay Marriage Hurts Children" and he couldn't resist. He turned and asked her what she meant by that. She explained that she didn't speak english. He asked her if she knew what her sign said. She shrugged.

Not sure what that was about but my best guess is that she was hired to carry a sign and be an anti-gay marriage protester. If so, that's pretty weak and pathetic.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Keep in mind that I am indeed happy about the outcome; it's often hard to tell how many of the people really want what some special interest group tells us or the media what they allegedly want, or how many of them there truly are. Given all that uncertainty, it's clear that the MA legislature did not only the right thing, but some genuine good for a load of people. And they also did no one else any harm, despite what many might say...
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
stlgph
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:20 am

This should be good. The next time a big hurricane blows away Galveston, New Orleans, or wherevertheputz, you know that Massachusetts will be blamed by some nutjob minister.
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RJdxer
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Now if we could do the same in Michibama! I believe that our Prop 2 (2004) will be overturned and we won't be seen as the new Segregationist State that we've become.

All it shows me is that gays are afraid of the ballot box. If you truly believed that the general population believed in gay marriage you would demand the vote to prove your right and your detractors are wrong.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Btw...since the MA gay marriage issue has gone into effect, how many plural marriages, marriages between men and goats, etc as the far right warned have actually taken place?

Give it time, it's already happened overseas, only a matter of time before it happens here.

BTW, I guess the people of Michigan are not entitled to their opinion by your post.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
max999
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 11):
All it shows me is that gays are afraid of the ballot box. If you truly believed that the general population believed in gay marriage you would demand the vote to prove your right and your detractors are wrong.

You're alluding to an interesting point there...liberals have for a long time relied on the Judiciary to make changes in society. Maybe it's time to diversify the tactics that are used.

And also, recent polls have shown that the younger the age, the more likely they are to support gay marriage. So it's only a matter of time before the majority of Americans are fine with the issue. I'm not discounting the fact there will be opposition to gay marriage in the future, but they will be in the minority. Just like opposition today to interracial marriage is in the minority.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 11):

Give it time, it's already happened overseas, only a matter of time before it happens here.

Thanks for letting us know that you see myself and millions of other gays/lesbians around the world on the same level as goats.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
stlgph
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:11 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 11):
All it shows me is that gays are afraid of the ballot box. If you truly believed that the general population believed in gay marriage you would demand the vote to prove your right and your detractors are wrong.



Quoting Max999 (Reply 12):
You're alluding to an interesting point there...liberals have for a long time relied on the Judiciary to make changes in society. Maybe it's time to diversify the tactics that are used.

Hey that sounds like a great new concept that I'm all about ...

"Voting in favor of keeping principles of the Constitution in tact"

And what better place to start than a combination of the 1st and 14th Amendments?
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 7):
4. While I am pleased with the result, it seems that this could be construed as another example of politicians doing what THEY think best despite what many of their constituents want.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 11):
If you truly believed that the general population believed in gay marriage you would demand the vote to prove your right and your detractors are wrong.

Both these responses address the basic fundamentals of why we have a government. We individually cannot build our own roads, police our own communities, safeguard the food supply, etc., while we're putting food on our table and a roof over our heads. That's why we collect ourselves as societies to appoint others to take care of these tasks for us. We don't have to vote on every issue, we've elected others to do that for us--and not just for what we may want individually, but what is best for us as a whole, while doing no harm in the process.

When those we've elected to handle the mechanisms of society don't act in accordance with that brief, we have the ballot box to turn to.
International Homo of Mystery
 
QueenofDaSkies
Posts: 94
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:31 am

Fabulous.....looks like I'm transferring to BOS.

Now I just gotta find a husband.......  Silly
It's time to FLY!
 
max999
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 13):
Hey that sounds like a great new concept that I'm all about ...

"Voting in favor of keeping principles of the Constitution in tact"

And what better place to start than a combination of the 1st and 14th Amendments?

The beauty of the American government is that reform can happen through a variety of means. There is nothing wrong with writing a law that clarifies the unalienable rights of the Constitution if rights are being violated.

All I'm saying is that there is more than one way of achieving gay marriage in this country.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
yanksn4
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 11):
All it shows me is that gays are afraid of the ballot box. If you truly believed that the general population believed in gay marriage you would demand the vote to prove your right and your detractors are wrong.

 checkmark 

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
Both these responses address the basic fundamentals of why we have a government. We individually cannot build our own roads, police our own communities, safeguard the food supply, etc., while we're putting food on our table and a roof over our heads. That's why we collect ourselves as societies to appoint others to take care of these tasks for us. We don't have to vote on every issue, we've elected others to do that for us--and not just for what we may want individually, but what is best for us as a whole, while doing no harm in the process.

When those we've elected to handle the mechanisms of society don't act in accordance with that brief, we have the ballot box to turn to.

Marriage is a issue for society, not government. When something like marriage is regulated, it should be decided upon by the people at large, not a hundred or so legislators. While I do in a way support gay marriage, I think the only way it and the homosexual community can come to be fully accepted is if they work with the people and try to convince them on their merits, not going through courts and by passing the public at large.

signed,
Matthew
2013 Airports: EWR, JFK, LGA, LIS, AGP, DEN, GIG, RGN, BKK, LHR, FRA, LAX, SYD, PER, MEL, MCO, MIA, PEK, IAH
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:40 am

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 17):
Marriage is a issue for society, not government.

Actually, the only legal marriages in the U.S. are those recognized and regulated by the government. If it was purely a societal issue, there would be no need for a marriage license, the refusal of which in a number of jurisdictions is what caused gay marriage to be brought to the forefront in recent years.
International Homo of Mystery
 
zrs70
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:40 am

There are some truths that should be self evident. If society voted on every single aspect of law, I would fear.
17 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2016
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 17):
Marriage is a issue for society, not government.

Then why is it legally binding?
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
csavel
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:41 am

Kudos to Massachusetts. Too bad so-called "liberal" New York is being held hostage by the worst political hackage that both parties have ever perpetrated upon a state or we'd have true marriage freedom here too.

I find it ironic that some conservatives, mostly so-called "social conservatives" who profess to be anti big government, act like morality SOCIALISTS when it comes to Gay Marriage or any other hot-button issue. Then they love Big Government more than Bella Abzug, Hillary Clinton, and John Lindsey combined ever did.

"Gays marry, quick let's have the govt tell us who we can and can't marry!"

"A little titty on the TV? Quick let's have the government tell the WHOLE COUNTRY what is too dirty for them to watch!" As adults they obviously can't be counted on to do it themselves.
But it is for the children, because we freedom-loving conservatives can't trust adults to parent their kids.

And so it goes, do social conservatives have *any* credibility now?

PS I can't wait for James Dobson to be caught in bed with an underaged male goat.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
stlgph
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 16):
There is nothing wrong with writing a law that clarifies the unalienable rights of the Constitution if rights are being violated.

You missed the part about the 14th amendment I take it...
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:05 am

Am happy about the results. Shame on the attempts from some to have false signatures on petitions, that is a disgrace.

However...

I am conflicted about the process. I would prefer the public opinion to be consulted. On the other hand, should the equal rights of a minority be subject to a majority's suffrage?

My political side is happy, however my legalistic side sees this as a somewhat pyrrhic victory.

Anyways, at this point, Congratulations MA!
Take off and live
 
max999
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 22):

You missed the part about the 14th amendment I take it...

I think we're both not getting our points out clearly. I'll send you an private message instead.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
mbmbos
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 9):
As reprehensible as that is, it also smacks of the stupidity of the general public not to read what they were signing, or, to sign something that did not explicitly state its purpose. You know someone is going to ask for a link to confirm that, so I'll save them the trouble. Any source?

I don't have a source but it has been widely covered and verified (Yesterday's Globe mentioned the number of petitioners who were removed; websites published list of signers [a very controversial move] so that people could see if they had been fooled into signing). From the descriptions I read they had rigged their clipboards so that you were reading grocery store petition and signing a page below it. They were making it look like a tear-off form of sorts apparently.
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 25):
Yesterday's Globe mentioned the number of petitioners who were removed; websites published list of signers [a very controversial move] so that people could see if they had been fooled into signing

Fair enough.

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 25):
From the descriptions I read they had rigged their clipboards so that you were reading grocery store petition and signing a page below it. They were making it look like a tear-off form of sorts apparently.

All in the name of "morality," huh? I hope thay find their cells to be comfortable. What's the sentence for this type of fraud?
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
N1120A
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 11):

BTW, I guess the people of Michigan are not entitled to their opinion by your post.

Actually, they aren't in this case. The Constitution is the Supreme Law and the 14th Amendment is very clear.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
greasespot
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 11):
Give it time, it's already happened overseas, only a matter of time before it happens here.

Where?


If they put everything to a vote interracial marriage would still be illegal....The arguments that were trotted out when interacial marriage was debated have been brought out by the anti-gay marriage foes.....Society did not collapse then nor will it collapse now.


We have had gay marriage up here country wide and i have not noticed our civilization coming to an end.....

GS

PS for the record i have no desire to marry a goat.
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 11):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 6):
Btw...since the MA gay marriage issue has gone into effect, how many plural marriages, marriages between men and goats, etc as the far right warned have actually taken place?

Give it time, it's already happened overseas, only a matter of time before it happens here.

So I've looked up the issue of man/beast marriages. There was one case in the Cayman Islands, where the man claimed his first wife was a cow, his second wife a bitch, so he should be allowed to marry a goat as his third wife.  silly 

I doubt that will ever come about in the U.S. since a goat is incapable of making an informed, rational decision to marry, or even sign a marriage license.

As far as plural marriages go, the state of Utah had to renounce polygamy as a condition to enter the Union. I have to head out to the doctor in a few minutes, or I'd look up relevant links, but I believe that if Utah were to make polygamy legal again, they would have to renounce statehood.
International Homo of Mystery
 
mt99
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 29):
since a goat is incapable of making an informed, rational decision to marry, or even sign a marriage license.

Is Britney Spears capable of any of these?
Step into my office, baby
 
tsaord
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Johnboy (Thread starter):
"We have a situation here where the politicians have spoken but the people have not," Mineau said. "We have a highly energized base in this state of aroused citizens who, time and time again, have tried to vote on this crucial issue of the definition of marriage, and they have been denied."

Why in this day and age should the "people" decide who can marry? I do not fully understand that.
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 28):
PS for the record i have no desire to marry a goat.

Think of the money you could save on dairy products.  duck 
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 32):
Quoting Greasespot (Reply 28):
PS for the record i have no desire to marry a goat.

Think of the money you could save on dairy products.

Wait, wait, was this why President Bush was reading "My Pet Goat" to the class on 9/11? First creationism, now goats?!?

(Oooh, I'd better leave for the doctor before I really get it.  Wink )
International Homo of Mystery
 
tsaord
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:41 am

Why is it so hard for people who do not believe in Gay Marriage because of their religion to leave it there? Their religious beliefs can't govern a nation because everyone has a different religion or non at all.

If the church believes gay marriage is wrong then don't do it IN THE CHURCH!

But then again, American voters are very "moral". Are there any persons holding political offices that are non believers?? And also make it known they do not believe in God? To have seperation of church as state a very very thin line I see.

Aww well congrats MA. Its appreciated that you have this law in place for your people. But this is one gay man who doesn't need a marriage paper to be with someone for life!

[Edited 2007-06-15 22:42:50]
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 34):
Why is it so hard for people who do not believe in Gay Marriage because of their religion to leave it there?

Because it defies the "sanctity" of the marriage vows for the religious. Gay marriage to them isn't "holy". I say fine, if you don't believe in gay marriage, don't enter into one!
International Homo of Mystery
 
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bwest
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 34):
Are there any persons holding political offices that are non believers??

Maybe you should rephrase that as "openly non believers".

Btw, some posters argued here that it's up to the people to decide, not to the politicians. But, in a democracy, don't the people elect the politicians whom they think will voice their opinion the best? And if the politicians fail to do so, the people always have the chance to send those politicians home again. If the people had to decide on all law making, why would we need politicians then? (and I fear the country would quickly turn very chaotic)
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 11):
Give it time, it's already happened overseas,

Example please?

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 17):
Marriage is a issue for society, not government.

Other way around.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
LH423
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 7:35 am

I was listening to talk radio at work while this was happening yesterday. Even the right-wingers on Boston talk radio were pleased with the results.

Technically the VoteOnMarriage.org group could wait out the time and bring back the issue but now the earliest it could appear on a ballot would not be before 2012, a full 9 years after the legalization of gay marriage in Massachusetts. Most people believe by then the issue will be dead.

The right wingers in Massachusetts are waving their arms now because they're saying that Gov. Deval Patrick offered some sweetheart deals and pork in upcoming budgets to legislators who changed their vote. Is that possible? Yes. Does it happen every single time there's a close vote? Yes. Non issue.

As I write this, "South End Sally" the DUCK Tour boat (those of you who have been to Boston will know what I mean) that'd decked out in the Rainbow has just driven by me Big grin

LH423
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N1120A
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 29):
but I believe that if Utah were to make polygamy legal again, they would have to renounce statehood.

Which would likely get them in big, big trouble, as happened to a few other states that tried to leave before.
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RJdxer
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting Max999 (Reply 12):
Thanks for letting us know that you see myself and millions of other gays/lesbians around the world on the same level as goats.

If you are going to redefine marriage for one group you have to be willing to redefine it for all groups otherwise you are asking for "gasp" special treatment.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 13):
And what better place to start than a combination of the 1st and 14th Amendments?

If you can point out where in those amendments your "right" to marry whom you choose is enumerated I'd be happy to read it.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
We don't have to vote on every issue, we've elected others to do that for us-

But in Massachusetts, as in other states, in order to pass a Constitutional amendment to the State Constitution, the people must vote on it.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
Actually, the only legal marriages in the U.S. are those recognized and regulated by the government.

The State government.

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 19):
There are some truths that should be self evident

And not one reference to marriage by any of the founding fathers.

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 19):
If society voted on every single aspect of law,

As above, in some states, in order to change the State Constitution, the people must vote.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Actually, they aren't in this case. The Constitution is the Supreme Law and the 14th Amendment is very clear.

Once again, if you can point it out I'd appreciate it. First you have to find where the right of marriage is guaranteed by the Constitution and secondly how it is a Federal function and not one of the State. Since there are no Federal statues that I can find dealing with marriage except in the tax code a little guidance would go a long way.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 28):
If they put everything to a vote interracial marriage would still be illegal....

Interracial marriage does not require a redefining of "marriage" i.e. one man and one woman. Gay marriage requires redefining not only just what is marriage but the concept as well.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 28):
PS for the record i have no desire to marry a goat.

Good for you, they smell nasty. However, what if you decided you wanted to willingly enter into a three way relationship with two other consenting adults? Why, if we are going to redefine marriage to allow same sex, should not multiple sex marriages be legal?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 29):
but I believe that if Utah were to make polygamy legal again, they would have to renounce statehood.

But what if individuals which is exactly what gay couples have done, sue for the right to be allowed to wed? Right now marriage is between one man and one woman. If we redefine it for one, why not redefine it for all?

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 28):
Where?



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 37):
Example please?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6379785.stm

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4093778a12.html

and of course this, albeit humorous link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/ukfs_news/...4740000/newsid_4748200/4748292.stm
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:58 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 40):
But in Massachusetts, as in other states, in order to pass a Constitutional amendment to the State Constitution, the people must vote on it.



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 40):
As above, in some states, in order to change the State Constitution, the people must vote.

The Constitutional amendment at issue in Massachusetts was to *ban* gay marriages, not for allowing them. The legislature decided there was no usefulness in changing the state's constitution.

It's the first sentence of the linked article:

"In a victory for supporters of gay marriage, Massachusetts lawmakers on Thursday blocked a measure to let voters decide whether a constitutional amendment should ban same-sex marriage in the only state that allows it."

Same-sex marriage is already legal in Massachusetts.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 40):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
Actually, the only legal marriages in the U.S. are those recognized and regulated by the government.

The State government.

Never said otherwise.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 40):
But what if individuals which is exactly what gay couples have done, sue for the right to be allowed to wed? Right now marriage is between one man and one woman. If we redefine it for one, why not redefine it for all?

And have the state of Utah forcibly removed from the United States? Well okay, why the hell not?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 40):
Gay marriage requires redefining not only just what is marriage but the concept as well.

Not at all. All it requires is for marriage license applications to read "Party A" and "Party B".
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zrs70
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 40):
If you are going to redefine marriage for one group you have to be willing to redefine it for all groups otherwise you are asking for "gasp" special treatment

Well, who defines marriage? The bible? In the bible, men had multiple marriages, and women were acquired as property.
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mariner
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 42):
In the bible, men had multiple marriages, and women were acquired as property.

Yeh, I've having a little problem with that - most of the patriarchs were polygamists.

I think the situation in Massachusetts is great - for those who want it. If two blokes want to jump over the broom, well, why the heck not?

I'm just not sure why they would. When I "came to terms with my sexuality" I did so in the full knowledge that in doing so, in the eyes of the law as it stood then where I lived, I would be a criminal if I actually did anything about it.

But at the same time, I understood I had a great freedom - the freedom to love anyone I wanted - and the freedom, if my heart so told me, to love more than one person at the same time - which did happen, one magic summer of my life.

That was then. Now, all the legal issues that might exist with my partner have been resolved through civil union. I am not sure what "marriage" gives me that would be different.

But, as I say, heartiest conrgats to those that want it.

mariner

[Edited 2007-06-16 07:41:08]
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N1120A
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:15 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 40):

Once again, if you can point it out I'd appreciate it.

I already have. Equal protection.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 40):
First you have to find where the right of marriage is guaranteed by the Constitution and secondly how it is a Federal function and not one of the State.

The right of a government sanctioned marriage isn't guaranteed, but if the government sanctions it for one group, it must sanction it for all groups. That is equal protection. Further, equal protection has nothing to do with state v. federal, as it applies to both the state and federal governments

Quoting Mariner (Reply 43):
Now, all the legal issues that might exist with my partner have been resolved through civil union.

One of the big issues is that those protections are still not resolved in most of the US
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bananaboy
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:40 pm

I've always wondered why it seems so important to call it "marriage?"

I don't have religious beliefs, but can respect those that do. If the Christians believe that the sanctity of marriage would be altered by allowing same-sex couples to marry, why are the "pro" lobby so intent on pushing for marriage.

Here in the UK, I will be entering into a "civil partnership" this summer. I will have the same rights as a hetero couple and the union is legally recognised.

Surely the "pro" lobby would gain more ground with a change in stance on this? Tying religion into this arguement is surely only going to slow progress on it. Seperate the two and the push towards full equality would surely be more successful. It will then certainly be easier to determine those who are happy to continue with the inequality (for whatever reason) by hiding behind the religious arguement.

We are a predominantly Christian country, and although there was a level of discussion when legalised, the religious really could not counter a strong arguement against as there is no religious element to the CP process.


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mariner
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:41 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 44):
One of the big issues is that those protections are still not resolved in most of the US

Yes, I understand that, and I wonder if it might have happened more swiftly with civil union than with marriage. Within my experience in the US, it was the word "marriage" that seemed to frighten - or offend - so many people.

But I understand that marriage represents a proper and equal place at the table for some.

It doesn't do it for me, but I'm live and let live. If that is what people want, go for it. I'll cheer.

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N1120A
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 4:59 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 46):

Yes, I understand that, and I wonder if it might have happened more swiftly with civil union than with marriage. Within my experience in the US, it was the word "marriage" that seemed to frighten - or offend - so many people.



Quoting BananaBoY (Reply 45):
I've always wondered why it seems so important to call it "marriage?"

Here is the problem. All the laws are written to call it marriage and many states still grant the Tenancy in Common, a right that is only enjoyed by those who are married. What the government should do is just sanction the contract for everyone and call it one thing, whether that is a marriage or a civil union, for all people.
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Doona
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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 29):
So I've looked up the issue of man/beast marriages. There was one case in the Cayman Islands, where the man claimed his first wife was a cow, his second wife a bitch, so he should be allowed to marry a goat as his third wife.

There was the guy in the Sudan who was caught... um... "getting jiggy" with his goat, and he was sentenced to marry the goat by the local court. After divorcing his wife, of course.

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RE: Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts

Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting Johnboy (Thread starter):
Gay Marriage Safe In Massachusetts  

Sadest point is that this is still newsworthy!


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