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Aaron747
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Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:50 pm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1948375.ece

Britain's decision to award Salman Rushdie a knighthood set off a storm of protest in the Islamic world today, with a Pakistani government minister giving warning that it could provide justification for suicide bomb attacks.

Rushdie was awarded the title in the Queen's Birthday Honours on Saturday. He has lived under police protection since the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini of Iran pronounced a fatwa (death sentence) on him over alleged blasphemies against Islam in his 1988 novel The Satanic Verses.

Today, Pakistan's religious affairs minister suggested that the knighthood was so grave an offence that any Muslim anywhere in the world would be justified in taking violent action.

"If somebody has to attack by strapping bombs to his body to protect the honour of the Prophet then it is justified," Mr ul-Haq told the National Assembly.

The minister, the son of Zia ul-Haq, the military dictator who died in a plane crash in 1988, later retracted his statement in parliament, then told the AFP news agency that he meant to say that knighting Rushdie would foster extremism.

"If someone blows himself up he will consider himself justified. How can we fight terrorism when those who commit blasphemy are rewarded by the West?" he said.


Too late - it's obvious you meant what you said the first time. How about opening a reasoned dialogue with Rushdie regarding the disrespected leaders? Oh no, sorry, suicide bombs are better at proving the point.  Yeah sure

He said Pakistan should sever diplomatic ties with Britain if it did not withdraw the award, adding:"We demand an apology by the British government. Their action has hurt the sentiments of 1.5 billion Muslims...

...



Khwaja Asif, an Opposition parliamentarian, warned however that the resolution exposed a contradiction in the Government’s policy as an ally of Britain in the international war on terrorism.

In the Pakistani city of Multan, about 100 Muslim students burnt effigies of the Queen and Rushdie and shouted: "Kill him, kill him".

Rushdie went into hiding and copies of The Satanic Verses were publicly burned on the streets of Bradford after Ayatollah Khomeini issued his fatwa, ordering Muslims to kill him.

Eighteen years ago when Scotland Yard first gave Salman Rushdie police protection senior officers accepted that the operation could take years and cost millions but there was a determination that it had to be done. Senior officers felt that he could not be allowed to become a victim of extremism and Special Branch officers began their guard on him.

...

A fine species we are. We're at the pinnacle of our technological and intellectual prowess as a species yet it still all comes down to this outright emotional garbage based on mostly nothing. What's it going to take to set us straight?
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Banco
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:05 am

Rushdie's been a fine novelist for 30 years. The award is a British one, to a British writer. None of their bloody business.
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CastleIsland
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
knighting Rushdie would foster extremism.

I thought close-mindedness and lack of objectivity fostered extremism.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:15 am

Here we go again.

Quoting Banco (Reply 1):
None of their bloody business.

Damn right. Plenty more things going on in Pakistan for them to be worrying about. Stupid and highly irresponsible thing for Mr ul-Haq to say.
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Aaron747
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 1):
Rushdie's been a fine novelist for 30 years.

Indeed. He's a gifted writer and employs clever wordplay that few of his contemporaries can match. A decent bet says most of these malcontents have never even read his work.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Banco
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:19 am

The British High Commissioner (that's Ambassador, by the way - they're called High Commissioners between Commonwealth countries) to Pakistan has expressed "deep concern" over the comments. That's diplomatic language for angry disbelief, really.
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LHMark
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:23 am

So now the mouthpieces of moderate Islam will say "This represents the viewpoint of only a few extremists, not the mainstream Muslim community."

I eagerly await the public condemnation of Mr. Ul-Haq's remarks by prominent moderate Muslims. If anyone sees any articles that reflect this, please post the link.
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cornish
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:25 am

If you are reading JGPHXYZA, that's a real Fatwah that is Big grin


More seriously though, this is not good. Especially from a government minister of a country that knows exactly what the impact of suicide bombs are on innocent people and the danger of promoting terrorism  Yeah sure
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:34 am

Quick overview of the history (hope it's accurate):

"On February 14, 1989, the Ayatollah broadcast the following message on Iranian radio: "I inform the proud Muslim people of the world that the author of the Satanic Verses book, which is against Islam, the Prophet and the Qur'an, and all those involved in its publication who are aware of its content are sentenced to death."[2]As a result, Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese language translator of the book was stabbed to death on July 11, 1991; Ettore Capriolo, the Italian language translator, was seriously injured in a stabbing the same month, and William Nygaard, the publisher in Norway, survived an attempted assassination in Oslo in October of 1993. On February 14, 2006, the Iranian state news agency reported that the fatwa will remain in place permanently.[3]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses
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MDorBust
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:34 am

Perhaps they could benefit from actually reading the Satanic Verses.
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Banco
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 6):
So now the mouthpieces of moderate Islam will say "This represents the viewpoint of only a few extremists, not the mainstream Muslim community."

Pakistan is a bit of a basket case, though.

Some of the comments I've heard have talked about the knighthood being "provocative". This is nonsense, because it essentially says a country can't do anything that the more extreme types might view as being "provocative". It's our citizen that's being honoured, not theirs, it has nothing whatever to do with them.
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Banco
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):
Perhaps they could benefit from actually reading the Satanic Verses.

Perhaps not. It's actually one of his worst books.
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richierich
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:37 am

If they are so mad and want to blow themselves up, I have no problem with that. its the fact that they like murdering innocent people that I have a problem with. Did Rushdie kill anyone?

Some Muslim fundamentalists are so freaking hypocritical - it's unbelieveable!
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Aaron747
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 12):
Some Muslim fundamentalists are so freaking hypocritical - it's unbelieveable!

It's more than hypocrisy, it's bordering on large scale mental illness.
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):
Perhaps they could benefit from actually reading the Satanic Verses.

-
I once had a serious look into that book and found the writing style rather boring. To force somebody to read the book therefore amounts to torture. Mr ul-Haq possibly has shares in the relevant publishing-house !  Big grin
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
It's more than hypocrisy, it's bordering on large scale mental illness.

Muslim fanatics are trying to drum up support for some sort of religious war between Christians and their own religion - yet I have not seen any indication that Christianity is being spread to that part of the world. Yet it seems like we are heading down the path of an all-out war between religious beliefs... because of their actions.
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dl021
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:51 am

OK...putting myself in his place and not knowing the context of the discussion or speech I can see how he could have been taken incorrectly. All one needs to add is the inferred "in the eyes of the terrorist" before the sentence "....is justified".....

I hope that's what he meant, as it would have been criminally stupid for him to side with the terrorists and display an attitude of acceptability for suicide/homicide bombings.

I would like to know who's idea it was to knight the dude. He's not that great a writer.
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qr332
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:23 am

While I agree it is non of their business, the action itself is very provocative, especially when you know what a controversial figure this man is. I disagree with the threats, he can write whatever the hell he wants - thats the whole point of freedom of speech, but at the same time knighting him was not a good idea. Muslims already perceive the West as being anti-Islamic, and this just proves to many that this is indeed the case.

This is the equivalent to Muslims as knighting that Holocaust denier - I forgot what his name was, the British one who was arrested recently.

I'm sure all of you would be pissed off if it was him being knighted.
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:35 am

I highly doubt that. The reaction you would likely find is a condemnation of such a decision as being stupid more than outrageous or provocative. At any rate, Holocaust denial has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

Whether or not an action is, in fact, provocative is wholly dependent on the intent. The intent of the queen was obviously to reward one of Britain's seminal figures in its immigrant community, particularly with regard to Rushdie's ability to build literary bridges between today's India and Indians who expatriated.

The real question here is why this is considered provocative at all. It seems the only sensible answer is that some are categorically unable to employ reason and wait for any ounce of criticism to decry as provocation.
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 17):
Muslims already perceive the West as being anti-Islamic, and this just proves to many that this is indeed the case.

Muslims perceive correctly. I'm sorry, I've lived in the Middle East, and once loved it. But, the stunning and inexplicable silence of the moderate majority has allowed perceptions of Islam to be completely overshadowed by the outrageous acts of the radical minority. Until the moderates step up and clean up their own mess (shut down the radical madrassahs who spew hate and radicalism), all Muslims will continue to be tarnished by the actions of the minority. I'm sorry, but I really feel there is no place in civilized society for the likes of Mr Ul-Haq, and his statements. It is inexcusable for a government minister to make such a statement, and it is precisely these types of statement (and underlying sentiment behind it) that fuels the anti-Islamic feelings in the West.
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Banco
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 17):
the action itself is very provocative

Is it hell. Rushdie wrote a book, and without so much as reading it, you had a religious leader calling for his murder. If that's not provocative, I don't know what is. To then say that to honour a writer's long career in the face of such a disgusting, despicable decree is "provocative" is pathetic.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 17):
This is the equivalent to Muslims as knighting that Holocaust denier

In what way is that even a remotely accurate comparison?
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Pope
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 17):
While I agree it is non of their business, the action itself is very provocative, especially when you know what a controversial figure this man is.



Quoting QR332 (Reply 17):
Muslims already perceive the West as being anti-Islamic, and this just proves to many that this is indeed the case.

I perceive Muslims as being anti-West. Does that give me the right to dictate how Muslims act in their home countries? Do I get to dictate how women are treated in Saudi Arabia? Or the lack of religious tolerance in Iran?

This is just one more example of how Islamic fanaticism is judged by a different politically correct standard than any other behavior in the world. If the Queen decided to knight Mel Gibson and Jewish groups threatened to launch suicide attacks in the UK to protest that act, nobody would argue that "the [Queen's] actions ... are very provocative."

Radical elements of Islam will not voluntarily stop short of anything but complete world domination.

Though I am by no means an expert on Islam, I have studied it quite a bit. I have several Islamic friends (one was my roomate in college) and truly believe based on my discussions with them that true Islam is peaceful and these extremist are distorting the Quran the same ways that Christians distorted the Bible for thousands of years. But until the mainstream of the Islamic religion becomes much more aggressive in disassociating and eliminating the visible minority of extremist from within its ranks, the world will continue to adopt an "us" versus "them" mentality.

He who is silent is said to consent.
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GDB
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:08 am

No, Rushdie is nothing like David Irving, who is a totally disgraced figure here.
Irving wrote fiction pretending it was fact, to advance his own nasty agenda.
Rushdie is purely a novelist.

Rushdie is not to my taste, certainly sometimes seemed ungrateful for the £10 Million spent in personal protection he was (rightly) given, but that's in the past.
Question, how many of those ranting and calling for his death, can actually READ at all, let alone his books, of course those manipulating them are aware of this.

I'd not cite a holocaust denier in this if you come from the Mid East, however enlightened you might be yourself, where such a thing is common, often in state controlled media, not only with that vile charade in Iran recently.
(Can the UK get het up about the fiction/conspricay theory against Jews, the Elders Of Zion, be such a hit on state controlled media in places like Syria then?).

Our citizen, (who has never harmed or called for harm against anyone, unlike his attackers), our award, our free speech.

Maybe, if UK law had been implemented in 1989 when a lot of so called British Citizens went out and called for his death (incitement is illegal), instead of too many people saying 'oh well it's their culture', maybe later, sometimes more lethal nutters might have been nipped in the bud.
 
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):

Wow, that was just about the most extremist thing I have ever seen you write, and that is saying something. Shame on you.
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Pope
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Wow, that was just about the most extremist thing I have ever seen you write, and that is saying something. Shame on you.

Pray tell what about it do you find extremist?

That I called Islam a fundamentally peaceful religion?
That I called on mainstream elements to disassociate themselves from people who want to use violence against civilians to impose their will?
That I point out that radical elements of Islam seem hell bent on dominating behavior not just in their homeland but around the world?

Don't be a coward, step up and debate like a man.
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flyorski
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 15):
Muslim fanatics are trying to drum up support for some sort of religious war between Christians and their own religion - yet I have not seen any indication that Christianity is being spread to that part of the world. Yet it seems like we are heading down the path of an all-out war between religious beliefs... because of their actions.

That is true. Maybe some are upset because in most advanced European countries many Islamic immigrants live next to the evil people who do not want to convert to Islam  Yeah sure (Don't take this seriously)

I think that ever time we hear about a protest in Pakistan and many other similarly run countries the protest will be supported by the government. If people protest against the government, the protest is broken up and people are arrested, yet here it is tolerated and supported.

I think it is amazing that he would call for this mans death because he wrote a "bad" book.

Crazy
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Doona
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
being "provocative".

I am so sick and tired of that word. Is violence suddenly OK if provoked? I thought violence was only sanctioned in the case of defence, not provocation, which is not the same thing as an attack. A guy giving the finger is provocative, but he isn't punching you in the face!

About a year ago, I saw a video on Youtube which showed a protest in Paris against the whole Mohammed-cartoon thingy, and there was a guy dressed in a Danish flag, just standing there. Some of the protesters tried to attack the guy, but were restrained by their peers. The subtitles show that the would-be attackers are shouting "But he's provoking us!" or something to that effect. Sheesh.

In kindergarten, I was taught ignore annoying people even if they were provoking me.

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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):

I perceive Muslims as being anti-West.



Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
the world will continue to adopt an "us" versus "them" mentality.



Quoting Pope (Reply 21):

He who is silent is said to consent.

All extremist statements.
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Banco
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Quoting Pope (Reply 21):

He who is silent is said to consent.

All extremist statements.

Hmm. That quote comes from Plato.
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mdsh00
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
"If someone blows himself up he will consider himself justified. How can we fight terrorism when those who commit blasphemy are rewarded by the West?" he said.

He should be one to talk, since his country is a freaking breeding ground for terrorism.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
He said Pakistan should sever diplomatic ties with Britain if it did not withdraw the award, adding:"We demand an apology by the British government. Their action has hurt the sentiments of 1.5 billion Muslims...

I would think that Fundamentalism and groups like Al-Qaida have done Islam much more damage than one author.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
In the Pakistani city of Multan, about 100 Muslim students burnt effigies of the Queen and Rushdie and shouted: "Kill him, kill him".

If they were only this passionate and fervent about eliminating the elements in their own Muslim world that truly blasphemes their religion. But it's so easy to just blame the West isn't it?
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Pope
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:34 am

Ahh. You deliberately take statements out of context and call them extremist. In fact, you don't just take them out of context, you frame your position by cutting out fragments.

You say the following statement is exteremist, but that's not what it read.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
the world will continue to adopt an "us" versus "them" mentality.

The full statement reads:

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
But until the mainstream of the Islamic religion becomes much more aggressive in disassociating and eliminating the visible minority of extremist from within its ranks, the world will continue to adopt an "us" versus "them" mentality.

You're bush league when it comes to debate because you can't even argue actual substance. You have to cut and paste to frame an argument that simply doesn't exist.

As for the other two statements, the first one is rhetorical. Read the rest of the paragraph.

And the last one . . . well I have no idea why you find that Latin maxim "extremist".

I sure hope you do a better job framing legal arguments in briefs than you do on this forum. I think if you tried pulling this cut and paste job in an actual court brief you'd be looking at sanctions.
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Doona
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
All extremist statements.

Indeed, but the "us-versus-them"-statement is not entirely incorrect. Look at mainstream media as one example. While news from around the world does not usually only pertain to violence, when was the last time we heard about social or economic reforms in the Middle East? Normal news, I mean? All we get is bombs, death, and religious extremists. I'm certain that if the media treated that region of the world like any other, and gave us more varied reports on different subjects, it would help the West realize that most people are normal, decent people, with many of the same issues that we face.

Cheers
Mats
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Pope
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 29):
If they were only this passionate and fervent about eliminating the elements in their own Muslim world that truly blasphemes their religion. But it's so easy to just blame the West isn't it?

Be careful N1120A is going to label you extremist for saying such a thing.
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LHMark
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 31):
Indeed, but the "us-versus-them"-statement is not entirely incorrect. Look at mainstream media as one example. While news from around the world does not usually only pertain to violence, when was the last time we heard about social or economic reforms in the Middle East? Normal news, I mean? All we get is bombs, death, and religious extremists. I'm certain that if the media treated that region of the world like any other, and gave us more varied reports on different subjects, it would help the West realize that most people are normal, decent people, with many of the same issues that we face.

That does happen. For example, CNN's Christine Amanpour and the New York Times Thomas Friedman have produced numerous reports featuring average people in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran and other countries.
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:59 am

This would be the same Pakistan where, on the TV news last night, we saw footage of a Taliban training camp where a new group of potential suicide bombers were "passing out".

It seems that while Pakistan is one of our "closest allies" in The War Against Terrorism, they have some internal "issues". sarcastic 
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N1120A
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 28):

Hmm. That quote comes from Plato.

Even he gets things wrong.
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David L
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
since the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini of Iran pronounced a fatwa (death sentence) on him over alleged blasphemies against Islam in his 1988 novel The Satanic Verses.

Yeah... and did he leave other religions untouched? I guess it's OK to criticise any religion as long as it isn't "mine".

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
He said Pakistan should sever diplomatic ties with Britain if it did not withdraw the award, adding:"We demand an apology by the British government. Their action has hurt the sentiments of 1.5 billion Muslims...

How many Muslims has he asked?

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 6):
I eagerly await the public condemnation of Mr. Ul-Haq's remarks by prominent moderate Muslims. If anyone sees any articles that reflect this, please post the link.

That would be helpful.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 8):
As a result, Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese language translator of the book was stabbed to death on July 11, 1991; Ettore Capriolo, the Italian language translator, was seriously injured in a stabbing the same month, and William Nygaard, the publisher in Norway, survived an attempted assassination in Oslo in October of 1993

Very tolerant  sarcastic 

Quoting QR332 (Reply 17):
This is the equivalent to Muslims as knighting that Holocaust denier - I forgot what his name was, the British one who was arrested recently.

I'm sure all of you would be pissed off if it was him being knighted.

Absolutely not. How many suicide bombers do you know of who've attacked Muslims because of anti-west remarks? If a western government minister had made similar remarks about a Muslim who'd criticised the west, this place would be inundated with his countrymen saying what an idiot he was.
 
dl021
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 23):
Wow, that was just about the most extremist thing I have ever seen you write, and that is saying something. Shame on you.

What was extreme there? He expressed a viewpoint and gave his reasons....did I miss something?
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MaverickM11
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):
Perhaps they could benefit from actually reading the Satanic Verses.

Or reading anything really....
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TheCol
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Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 15):

It's not just Christianity they're trying to vanquish. You should see what the Muslim extremists are doing to the Buddhist monks in Thailand.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Banco
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
Quoting Banco (Reply 28):

Hmm. That quote comes from Plato.

Even he gets things wrong.

Certainly. Much of Republic is anaethema to modern democratic tastes (and yes, I have read it). However, it's not usual to lump one of the foremost philosophers of history in with "extremists".
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
bravo45
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Too late - it's obvious you meant what you said the first time.

And what do you think about Bush's Crusade???
 
richierich
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:23 am

I don't claim to understand how one man's book (Rushdie) can cause such an issue with the Muslim world - I can't imagine anything similar striking up such emotion in the Western world, even if they called the Pope (not the a.net user) the devil and burned his picture. To get so upset over his knighthood is something very foreign to most of us.

What I can't understand is why he is being knighted in the first place. Is it perhaps because he has defied the death threats against him for 15+ years now???!
None shall pass!!!!
 
qr332
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 19):
Muslims perceive correctly. I'm sorry, I've lived in the Middle East, and once loved it. But, the stunning and inexplicable silence of the moderate majority has allowed perceptions of Islam to be completely overshadowed by the outrageous acts of the radical minority

Why should we apologize for something we are not responsible for?

I mean, if I was funding them, and helping them, fair enough. But I will not ever apologize for the actions of others - I completely disassociate myself from them, but I am in no way obliged to lift a finger because of the West's perception of me.

And do you know why I won't life a finger? Because the West has never apologized for the mess it has made in the Middle East.

When I hear an apology about the invasion of Iraq, the supporting of Israel while completely undermining the peace process, the supporting of regimes such as the Al Sauds and when the West acknowledges that they have made many mistakes here, then I will consider it.

But to hold us to double standards while your governments continue to act in all sorts of shady manners is our countries is hypocritical on every level.

Also, and this I think is extremely important - why doesn't the US apologize for advocating the rise in extremism? During the USSR's era, the US supported the Islamists against the Soviets in Afghanistan and funded Bin Laden and his likes. Israel funded Hamas in the 1970s in order to counter the PLO.

When I see all of these mistakes addressed by Americans, I will speak out.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 19):
Until the moderates step up and clean up their own mess (shut down the radical madrassahs who spew hate and radicalism), all Muslims will continue to be tarnished by the actions of the minority.

The minority is fueled by the actions of the West, and provocative actions such as this one do not help whatsoever. Again, knighting him is like knighting Irving to Jewish people - it is begging for a reaction. The only difference is if it was Irving being knighted, all of you would be condemning it.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 19):
I'm sorry, but I really feel there is no place in civilized society for the likes of Mr Ul-Haq, and his statements. It is inexcusable for a government minister to make such a statement, and it is precisely these types of statement (and underlying sentiment behind it) that fuels the anti-Islamic feelings in the West.

Is Mr Al Haq an authority on the worldwide Muslim community now? The minister of religious affairs of ONE muslim country makes a statement, and now anti-Islamic feelings are extended to the entire Muslim world?

It is actions such as these, combined with the West's foreign policy that make Muslims believe that the War on Terrorism is a War on Islam. I am not saying this is my point of view, but the actions of the West are making life a hell of a lot easier for extremists when it comes to recruiting people.

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
Is it hell. Rushdie wrote a book, and without so much as reading it, you had a religious leader calling for his murder. If that's not provocative, I don't know what is. To then say that to honour a writer's long career in the face of such a disgusting, despicable decree is "provocative" is pathetic.

He is one leader. To extend this to all Muslims just shows that people are looking for anything to make us all out to be extremists.

And yes, whether you like it or not it is completely and utterly provocative. Its not like the government of the UK doesn't know how people feel about Rushdie. The fact is, knighting him is seen as a direct attack on Muslims, especially considering the "Satanic Verses".

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
In what way is that even a remotely accurate comparison?

It is a very accurate comparison. Irving denies a historical fact, Rushdie ridicules Islam and distorts the religion. Both have not committed any crimes themselves (technicalities aside), yet both are very controversial figures. If Irving were knighted, it would cause a huge reaction from the Jewish community. The same can only be expected from the Muslim one. No, definitely not in the manner of the man in question, but to think that Muslims would just sit by and say nothing is extremely naive.

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
I perceive Muslims as being anti-West. Does that give me the right to dictate how Muslims act in their home countries? Do I get to dictate how women are treated in Saudi Arabia? Or the lack of religious tolerance in Iran?

This is just one more example of how Islamic fanaticism is judged by a different politically correct standard than any other behavior in the world. If the Queen decided to knight Mel Gibson and Jewish groups threatened to launch suicide attacks in the UK to protest that act, nobody would argue that "the [Queen's] actions ... are very provocative."

Again, you are holding all Muslims to the statements of one man.

Nobody is dictating how the West should act, but at the same time when moves such as this one is made the West should at the very least expect a reaction.

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
But until the mainstream of the Islamic religion becomes much more aggressive in disassociating and eliminating the visible minority of extremist from within its ranks, the world will continue to adopt an "us" versus "them" mentality.

Read above. As far as I remember, Bush coined the us vs them mentality (with us or against us). He has applied this through and through in his policies, and when you Westerners disassociate yourselves from what is being done in the Middle East, you can criticize us for not speaking out.

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 33):
That does happen. For example, CNN's Christine Amanpour and the New York Times Thomas Friedman have produced numerous reports featuring average people in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran and other countries.

Oh come on! All the above countries are examples of were extremism and bad conditions are very prevalent. Where are the reports about moderate Middle Eastern countries, such as the Gulf states, Jordan, Lebanon (believe it or not Lebanon is the most liberal country in the Middle East, and is an amazing place. Yet, the only side ever shown is war, destruction, etc), the Maghreb (North African states), Malaysia, Indonesia, etc?

The fact is that the Western media completely ignores this. The Dubai World ports deal last year proves this - one of the most progressive Middle Eastern states was completely shut out simply because of racism and xenophobia.

Since we're on the subject of apologies, why aren't regular Americans speaking up about incidents such as that?

Quoting David L (Reply 36):
Absolutely not. How many suicide bombers do you know of who've attacked Muslims because of anti-west remarks? If a western government minister had made similar remarks about a Muslim who'd criticised the west, this place would be inundated with his countrymen saying what an idiot he was.

I'm not Pakistani, and I will not apologize for his actions simply because I happen to have the same faith as him.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 42):
I don't claim to understand how one man's book (Rushdie) can cause such an issue with the Muslim world - I can't imagine anything similar striking up such emotion in the Western world, even if they called the Pope (not the a.net user) the devil and burned his picture. To get so upset over his knighthood is something very foreign to most of us.

And here, ladies and gentlemen, we see the core issue of the West-Islam conflict. The fact that Westerners can only see things from one point of view - Richierich correctly sees that this is something foreign.

And it is foreign because we have very different cultures. The West needs to respect this, and to respect that the world does not see things in the same manner they do. What is normal and not offensive in your culture can be highly offensive in ours.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
bravo45
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 42):
even if they called the Pope (not the a.net user) the devil and burned his picture.

That is a fundamentally wrong comparison and that is where a large part of the problem is. Rushdie is accused of insulting the Prophet of Islam (pbuh). That is not comparable to the Pope, its comparable to say Jesus or Moses. But of course no Muslim can ever insult any other prophet.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 42):
What I can't understand is why he is being knighted in the first place.

I am with you on this one, be it Rushdie or the Dutch troops at Srebrenica or some others if the like. Its like digging up the past to create a new controversy. As if we don't have enough of it already.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 15):
Muslim fanatics are trying to drum up support for some sort of religious war between Christians and their own religion - yet I have not seen any indication that Christianity is being spread to that part of the world.

-
the headline in the Khaleej Times of Dubai was
Anger mounts in Pakistan over Rushdie award
> http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayA...2007/june/subcontinent_june745.xml
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you speak here about "Islam" and the "Muslim World" etc, but it is basically an affair of Iran, Pakistan and India.
-
you say that you "have not seen any indication that Christianity is being spread to that part of the world". What "part of the world do you mean ??? There are millions of Christians in the Arab World, more than 10 millions in Egypt alone. So that your remark is rather strange, to put it mildly.
-

Quoting PA110 (Reply 19):
shut down the radical madrassahs

where have you seen "radical madrassahs" ? Why 2 "s" ? Most schools (madrasat) in the Arab World are state-schools, so what ? Where in the "Middle East" have you lived ?
-

Quoting PA110 (Reply 19):
Muslims already perceive the West as being anti-Islamic, and this just proves to many that this is indeed the case.
--
Muslims perceive correctly

-
NO, whomever perceives "the West" as being anti-Islamic perceives it wrongly. The West is definitely NOT "anti-Islamic" but just not willing to accept being lectured about morals and what to read and what to do, and in this, "the West" includes a very very very large part of the Arab World, where people, whenever being majority-wise Muslims, can do without that kind of lecturing very well without.
-

-

Quoting Banco (Reply 20):
Rushdie wrote a book, and without so much as reading it, you had a religious leader calling for his murder. If that's not provocative, I don't know what is.

-
Before Ayatollah Khomeini launched that threat against Salman Rushdie, I hardly even noticed that the person existed, but such a threat, and all the various threats which followed, "forced" me to pray for his survival.
-

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
I perceive Muslims as being anti-West.

While most Muslims in the world are either PRO-West or even part of "the West"

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
Do I get to dictate how women are treated in Saudi Arabia? Or the lack of religious tolerance in Iran?

how women are treated in Saudi Arabia and the lack of religious tolerance in Iran ? I thought you spoke about "Muslims" ? and not about people in the two weirdest theocracies around ?
-

Quoting Pope (Reply 21):
the world will continue to adopt an "us" versus "them" mentality.

the "world series" mentality ? you should NOT mistake the USA for the world. People in Europe, and as I have learnt from some Brazilians, also people in Latin America, do NOT share this "mentality"
-

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 29):
I would think that Fundamentalism and groups like Al-Qaida have done Islam much more damage than one author.

why is your statement tragically wrong ? Because by saying "much more" you indicate that Mr Rushdie had done damage to Islam. But, to defend him, he has NOT done any damage to Islam. Absolutely no damage.
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Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 29):
Muslim world

A) Pakistan is NOT the "Muslim World"
B) Would "the Muslim World" really take so much offence as sometimes indicated, Mr Salman Rushdie would no longer be alive
-

Quoting Doona (Reply 31):
when was the last time we heard about social or economic reforms in the Middle East? Normal news, I mean? All we get is bombs, death, and religious extremists. I'm certain that if the media

change your paper ! There are lots of positive media-reports about positive things happening in the Arab World
-

Quoting David L (Reply 36):
Their action has hurt the sentiments of 1.5 billion Muslims...
--
How many Muslims has he asked?

-
most certainly 1'499'999'999 people !  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
-

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 38):
Perhaps they could benefit from actually reading the Satanic Verses.
--
Or reading anything really....

-
I would favour "anything" any time. --- "Long live Salman Rushdie" -- at least as long as nobody forces me to read his stuff !  Big grin  rotfl   rotfl 
 
Pope
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 43):
Again, you are holding all Muslims to the statements of one man.

A valid criticism of my argument which I'll concede.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 43):
Nobody is dictating how the West should act, but at the same time when moves such as this one is made the West should at the very least expect a reaction.

At the very least this one person is trying to dictate how the West should act. If I'm being to vague by indicting all based on the statements of one, you can't say "nobody" when in fact there are people who clearly have that opinion.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 43):
As far as I remember, Bush coined the us vs them mentality (with us or against us). He has applied this through and through in his policies, and when you Westerners disassociate yourselves from what is being done in the Middle East, you can criticize us for not speaking out.

Excuse me but while the WTC was still smoldering and the President was still in the air, I remember watching images of Muslims and Palestinians cheering about what "they" had done to "us". Therefore, please don't tell me that President Bush created an "us" versus "them" mentality.

As for myself personally, I have spoken out about Israeli autracities both on this forum and elsewhere.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 45):
That is a fundamentally wrong comparison and that is where a large part of the problem is. Rushdie is accused of insulting the Prophet of Islam (pbuh). That is not comparable to the Pope, its comparable to say Jesus or Moses. But of course no Muslim can ever insult any other prophet.

Jesus is regularly insulted by people on a daily basis. However, you don't see Christians advocating suicide bomb attacks. When the Christian wacko go off the deepend (as in the case of abortion clinic bombings) the Christian movements is almost 100% unified in its condemnation of such acts.

Let me be clear about this - every movement is going to have its extremist. Furthermore, Christianity is not beyond criticism for history is quite clear that it accepted and encouraged religous violence in the past. But today in 2007 the silence of the mainstream Muslim community and its refusual to actively denounce the extermist that hide within its numbers speaks volumes.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
qr332
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 47):
At the very least this one person is trying to dictate how the West should act. If I'm being to vague by indicting all based on the statements of one, you can't say "nobody" when in fact there are people who clearly have that opinion.

We can argue about technicalities, but my point was that what Muslims want isn't to dictate what the West should do, but rather that the West respects us as it does many other groups. Provocative actions such as this is what pushes extremists.

Quoting Pope (Reply 47):
Excuse me but while the WTC was still smoldering and the President was still in the air, I remember watching images of Muslims and Palestinians cheering about what "they" had done to "us". Therefore, please don't tell me that President Bush created an "us" versus "them" mentality.

As for myself personally, I have spoken out about Israeli autracities both on this forum and elsewhere.

Several of those images have been proven to be fakes, to begin with. Secondly, you cannot judge based on the reactions of isolated groups. There was a crowd of Israelis arrested in NYC for cheering on the attack. Does that mean all Israelis supported 9/11 as well? Secondly, again, look at it from their perspective. The US had supplied Israel with the weapons used to kill Palestinians, funding, and had aided Israel in every way to continue the occupation against them. Yes, their reaction is completely wrong, but what else can you expect? I won't lie and say there aren't those that hate the West to that extent among the Palestinians, and the truth is the reason for it is the very actions we are discussing.

As for you speaking out against Israelis, it just goes to show how the voice of the moderates does not go through. You could spend all day speaking out against Israeli actions and I could spend all day speaking out against the actions of the extremists, but NOTHING will change. The reason is that nobody wants to listen to the moderates. It just goes to show that even when people speak out, it doesn't make a difference, because their voice isn't heard - exactly the case for most moderates.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
bravo45
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 47):
At the very least this one person is trying to dictate how the West should act.

And who the hell is that person??? Let me remind you! His is the member of the Kings party set up by the west's puppet, the dictator Musharraf, who is facing the worst crisis since he come to power. His staunchest supporters are outside the country just as the people he answers to. There have been hundreds of thousands on the streets of Pakistan against him. But why would you know unlike protests against Mugabe who the west doesn't need, Musharraf is their man. So they clean up after him.
IMO Musharraf took the opportunity to divert public attention using this heavenly sent ?(I don't think so) opportunity and must have asked his ministers to give these kinds of stupid statements aimed at pleasing radicals to have a calming effect. I hope it fails and these days go down in history as his last, in power.
Its been a while since I have been trying to start a thread about whats been going on in Pakistan recently which I am sure will come as a total surprise to most here. So here is the thread; Behold The Future Leader Of Pakistan (by Bravo45 Jun 19 2007 in Non Aviation)

Quoting Pope (Reply 47):
Jesus is regularly insulted by people on a daily basis.

By....????
Muslims?????
If not then it doesn't apply. Had it been Islam's way, and Jesus was not revered in the west, images of Jesus would be as insulting as images of Muhammad (pbuh). Though he is your prophet, father, God... you create his images and you insult him. As a Muslim, I like all others am not supposed to interfere in their religion. But, and I say this again, no Muslim will ever insult Jesus or Moses, I agree he is regularly insulted in the west. Ironic that Islam pays them more respect than the west that claims to follow them. But don't blame us if they insult them.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Suicide Bombs Justified For Sir Rushdie - Pakistan

Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 43):
I'm not Pakistani, and I will not apologize for his actions simply because I happen to have the same faith as him.

Agreed, but in his statement, he said that he speaks for all "1.5 billion Muslims," which I would assume includes you as well. Of course the only one that should be apologizing is the minister. But when someone makes a statement claiming that he speaks the sentiments of all Muslims, then it does leave the community prone to being judged as a group.

A few cases: After 9/11 the late Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson insinuated that "liberal" social policies were to blame, and they rightfully recieved much condemnation within the Christian community.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 43):
The West needs to respect this, and to respect that the world does not see things in the same manner they do. What is normal and not offensive in your culture can be highly offensive in ours.

On the same token, Muslim's (not all of course) need to respect another nation's right to free speech. Condemnation and protest is perfectly fine but threats of violence are not. The problem is that the Danish cartoon incidents put Muslims in a bad light to the West; the perception that they are hyper-sensitive, quick to make violent threats, and intolerant of another nation's free speech. This is compounded by common knowledge of anti-semitism that occurs in the area. I am not saying that this is my viewpoint, but it seems like a common view, especially in Europe, where it seems Muslims are "ghetto-ized" compared to the US and Canada.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."

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