Beaucaire
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Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:32 pm

The Polish twins have done it again..
In order to justify Polish opposition to a simplified EEC treaty and increase the weight of Poland,they found the brillant idea to take into consideration the dead Polish during WWII ...
It's time Poland gets rid of those two idiots and votes for responsible political leaders ,that bring forward Poland in the EEC integration!

[Edited 2007-06-21 13:32:48]
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flyingbabydoc
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:35 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
It's time Poland gets rid of those two idiots and votes for responsible political leaders ,that bring forward Poland in the EEC integration!

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

It is indeed irritating how these two are trying to derail the further integration of the EU in a blunt, simpleton and megalomaniac strive for personal power. I completely agree with you (and most of the EU, apparently).

Alex
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Doona
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voter

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:47 pm

It's funny, the European Court for Human Rights recently passed a verdict stipulating that Poland change it's very strict abortion-laws, after being taken to the court by a woman who wished to have an abortion after being raped. The comment from the Polish prime minister? "They want us to change our laws, which would be bad."  sarcastic 

It seems odd to me that while trying to gain more influence in the EU, Poland is still quite... non-progressive on issues like gay rigths and abortion, which does not correspond with the mainstream EU. How do they expect to be given more influence and power when they blatantly show that they don't share important values with the other member nations?

Cheers
Mats
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
It seems odd to me that while trying to gain more influence in the EU, Poland is still quite... non-progressive on issues like gay rigths and abortion, which does not correspond with the mainstream EU. How do they expect to be given more influence and power when they blatantly show that they don't share important values with the other member nations?

At the moment it looks as if the Polish government is just interested in the financial benefits (EU subsidies etc.) the EU brings, without wanting to share the values. They also try to use a scaremongering tactics, implying constantly that us Germans are just waiting for the right opportunity to invade again. Actually the twins got most support in the backward rural areas of Eastern Poland (which are very conservative, but want to get the EU money). Most people in Western Poland (actually the regions which once belonged to Germany and where you would assume people to be most worried about German claims to get confiscated land back) and the people in the big cities are most easygoing and embrace EU values.

Just a message to the twins: You can't have it both ways, EU subsidies and ultranationalism.

Jan
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Doona
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
that us Germans are just waiting for the right opportunity to invade again.

Berlusconi's "commandant"-remark comes to mind. Ridiculous.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
are most easygoing and embrace EU values.

I was referring to the twins, but I didn't make that very clear...  embarrassed 

Cheers
Mats
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:38 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
At the moment it looks as if the Polish government is just interested in the financial benefits (EU subsidies etc.) the EU brings, without wanting to share the values.


I guess they only follow the example of Ireland... benefiting from EU funds while having medieval-style legislation on abortions.

[Edited 2007-06-21 14:47:02]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 5):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
At the moment it looks as if the Polish government is just interested in the financial benefits (EU subsidies etc.) the EU brings, without wanting to share the values.


I guess they only follow the example of Ireland... benefiting from EU funds while having medieval-style legislation on abortions.

[Edited 2007-06-21 14:47:02]

Actually Ireland has been changing a lot over the last 15 years and will continue to change as the older generations pass away. The newer generations are not as willing as the previous ones to follow the rule of the Catholic church.

Jan
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
Actually Ireland has been changing a lot over the last 15 years and will continue to change as the older generations pass away. The newer generations are not as willing as the previous ones to follow the rule of the Catholic church.

Well, you could say the same about Poland, right? Or the only problem ist that EIR is an EU 15 member and PL is a new member?
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flyingbabydoc
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 7):
Well, you could say the same about Poland, right? Or the only problem ist that EIR is an EU 15 member and PL is a new member?

Ireland, albeit dealing with internal problems, has never threatened to veto any EU resolution "just because" neither to stop any further advancement in the talks about the EU constitution due to an ultra-nationalist movement. In this case, I think that there is a massive difference, and not only because PL is a new member.

Alex
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 7):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
Actually Ireland has been changing a lot over the last 15 years and will continue to change as the older generations pass away. The newer generations are not as willing as the previous ones to follow the rule of the Catholic church.

Well, you could say the same about Poland, right? Or the only problem ist that EIR is an EU 15 member and PL is a new member?

Not really. Ireland has been enthusiastically participating in the EU, driving EU policies, like the proposed constitution, forward, while the current Polish government has more or less declared on various matters, that while they like EU money, they are not really interested in EU involvement in their country.
Mind, that I'm speaking of the current government, the previous ones were different and I suspect after talking with a lot of Polish people that the current one is not going to stay too long. Basically the only item they are running on is nationalism and a rural conservatism. You still have these in Ireland as well, but Ireland has changed very much from the agrarian country centered in small towns and villages it was 25 years ago into an industrialised country with an increasing immigrant population. Also, while minority parties like fractions of Sinn Fein might still try to use the UK as a perceived enemy, it is definitely not official government policy to get on confrontation with Britain, unlike Poland, where there are open accusations by government members and the press against perceived German-Russian intentions to invade and divide Poland (granted, we have some hardcore Nazi type semilegal groups, but, whilr being quite vocal, they are very much a very small minority).
Then, in Ireland, the Roman Catholic church has been involved in various scandals over the last 50-60 years (child abuse, abuse of people entrusted into their care etc.), which have only become public during the last 10 years and more and more Irish citizens are refusing to let the church dictate their lives. So the influence of the church is already decreasing and will continue to shrink over the next few years. Expect some major changes e.g. in abortion and education to come. Most Irish see themselves as an integral part of Europe. With Poland, while the urban population and those living close to the western border might see themselves as proponents of Europe (due to heavy interaction with e.g. Germany and improved living conditions), there are still many in Eastern, rural Poland, who believe that there is a special destiny for Poland in junction with the more conservative elements of the Catholic church.

Jan

Jan
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Pyrex
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
Poland is still quite... non-progressive on issues like gay rigths and abortion

So, what is a "progressive" stance on abortion? Free abortion for everyone, everywhere? A clinic in each corner?

Funny, when I think of images of the future (from books, movies, etc.) I think of flying cars and time travel, not liberalized abortion. Or are you that in tune with the extreme-left rhetoric that equates "modern" with "everything I believe in" and "backwards" with "everything someone else believes in"?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 5):
I guess they only follow the example of Ireland... benefiting from EU funds while having medieval-style legislation on abortions.

I don't recall seeing abortion as a pre-condition when signing the treaty to become a part of the EU.
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Doona
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voter

Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 10):

So, what is a "progressive" stance on abortion? Free abortion for everyone, everywhere? A clinic in each corner?

Giving the woman right to choose, is my idea of a progressive stance. While that may not include clinics on every corner, or free abortions for everyone, it includes the right to abortion for all women.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 10):
Or are you that in tune with the extreme-left rhetoric that equates "modern" with "everything I believe in" and "backwards" with "everything someone else believes in"?

"Modern" in my book means not forcing women to have children against their will. And sheesh, even pro-lifers should be in favour of the womans case against Poland in the ECHR, as her pregnancy was a result of rape. Then again, Portugal is not the most liberal country in this respect either, I guess. I seem to remember an incident with a large boat?

Cheers
Mats
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Pyrex
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 11):
"Modern" in my book means not forcing women to have children against their will.

That is not the issue being discussed in most abortions (the Polish rape case notwithstanding) so I guess I was right in your interpretation of modern.

Quoting Doona (Reply 11):
Then again, Portugal is not the most liberal country in this respect either, I guess

And the problem is?

Quoting Doona (Reply 11):
I seem to remember an incident with a large boat?

No incident at all, some boat tried to enter Portuguese waters without prior authorization and it was denied, as simple as that.
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Beaucaire
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:48 am

The reason why I posted the thread is the incredible attempt to use killed Poles as argument to increase the voting weight of Poland within the EEC.
This has been targeting obviously Germany as the nazi-country,trying to blackmail out guilt-feelings and historical responsibilities. Comming from a newspaper I still could understand,but as a seriously defended argument by the president of a country,he dis-qualifies himself from any further serious respect for his politics.
German -Polish relations have been bad since ever-and this is not going to improve things within the EEC.
I did not mean to bring up a discussion on wheather Poland,Portugal or Ireland are more or less liberal-that's a different dabate...
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voter

Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 8):
Ireland, albeit dealing with internal problems, has never threatened to veto any EU resolution "just because" neither to stop any further advancement in the talks about the EU constitution

I see... that's the problem, not the abortion. Those pesky Polish... how dare they to challange the blessings and bright federal future that was designed for all of us in the corridors of "Brussels" and we the people will have the opportunity to "vote" on it (as many times as it takes to get the "proper" results)?
I'm sure many in Berlin and Paris in particular find it too hard to swallow that Poland is too big to be easily pacified as Ireland has been, not easily jumping the bandwagon of cheap, euroleftist anti-Americanism, more likely to find common ground on foreign policy issues with the British than with the French, but should have guys thought about that earlier. Better get used to it.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
Ireland has been enthusiastically participating in the EU, driving EU policies, like the proposed constitution, forward, while the current Polish government has more or less declared on various matters, that while they like EU money, they are not really interested in EU involvement in their country.

So anyone who's not a cheerleader for the need for 850 pages of EUrospeak bs compiled into a "constitution" is deemed unEUropean? I'm sorry but that's exactly the same type of GWB style thinking so many European a.netters have been so critical of in the case of the Iraq war ("criticism of war/Bush makes you unAmeican by default").
As far as the money... ok let's reform the EU's sacred cow of bizarre agricultural subsidies. Also when it comes to money EVERY country in the EU puts their interests first and frankly they would be stupid if they wouldn't. Blame the EU for not being able to negotiate the new EU members into even further second class membership than it is now.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
there are still many in Eastern, rural Poland, who believe that there is a special destiny for Poland in junction with the more conservative elements of the Catholic church.

Sort of like those certain Bavarian "elements" who still believe in special destiny of the Third Reich??? To make myself clear... I don't agree with Poland's policy on abortion, homosexuals nor - coming from the most atheist country in Europe - do I understand the strong position of the CC but there are plenty of other places around Europe where the policies are just as retarded so please let's keep things in proper perspective.
And it's utter hypocrisy from you to make a big deal about Kaczynskis verbal statements yet trying to playing down e.g. Sinn Fein. When Poland will have political party which is/has been part of terrorist organization engaged in terrorist activities in fellow EU country let me know.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
here are open accusations by government members and the press against perceived German-Russian intentions to invade and divide Poland

Well, watching Schroeder getting waaay too friendly with Putin made nervous a lot of people, not only in Poland. Believe me.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 14):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
here are open accusations by government members and the press against perceived German-Russian intentions to invade and divide Poland

Well, watching Schroeder getting waaay too friendly with Putin made nervous a lot of people, not only in Poland. Believe me.

Schroeder is by now more or less an unperson in Germany. He lost all credit when he became the mouthpiece of Putin. No chance for a political comeback for him.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 14):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
there are still many in Eastern, rural Poland, who believe that there is a special destiny for Poland in junction with the more conservative elements of the Catholic church.

Sort of like those certain Bavarian "elements" who still believe in special destiny of the Third Reich???

if you mean the idiots from the "Vertriebenenverband" then sorry, I have to say that, while they have a loud voice, they have virtually no support within the German population. And you could also see during thelast election that a Bavarian CSU politician has no chance of becoming German chancellor.
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GDB
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:25 am

Oh well, us Brits weren't so bad bad when we kicked off in the EEC/EU in the past after all?
How did Mitterrand (who probably fancied her) describe Maggie? 'The eyes of Caligula but the lips of Marilyn Monroe.'
She at her handbagging peak was not nearly as problematic for other EU nations than these two are.

Hey, at least that Basil Faulty sketch was funny, these two twins are no laughing matter.
(Though we've had a large influx of hard working Poles to the UK since 2004, it is thought that the later ones, of the very well educated kind, were encouraged to come here due to the current Polish government, one expects some of them might have left due to the persecution of Gays too).

Still, Poland is a democracy, so they won't last forever.
 
rineanna
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 10):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 5):
I guess they only follow the example of Ireland... benefiting from EU funds while having medieval-style legislation on abortions.


I don't recall seeing abortion as a pre-condition when signing the treaty to become a part of the EU.

Well said. Since when has receiving EU funding been influenced by Abortion legislation?

A referendum has been held as late as 2002 on our 'medievil' abortion legislation. If it indeed had been felt, as you propose, that our abortion legislation was obsolete and in need of change, then the referendum would have passed. The fact of the matter is it failed indicating that the majority of voters were satisfied with the state of the legislation as it is now.

Stating that the legislation is 'medievil' is your opinion, but it is not fact (seeming as the majority of voters in the 2002 referendum felt it is adequate in the modern society).

I'm not attempting to start a pro life/choice debate at all, i'm just trying to point out that the the abortion legislation in question could have been altered in 2002 if the voters felt change was necessary, but it wasn't, so why is it proposed that we shouldn't have received the EU funds because someone outside of Ireland subjectively feels we made the 'wrong' decision in a referendum?
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voter

Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 17):
Stating that the legislation is 'medievil' is your opinion

You bet it is.

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 17):
why is it proposed that we shouldn't have received the EU funds

I'm not proposing anything and it definitely wasn't me who was trying to present abortion legislation as an example of country's failure to share EU "values". I was only using Ireland as an example to point out that by far Poland is not the only one.
 
Doona
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 17):
'medievil'

Nice touch.

Cheers
Mats
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NoUFO
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 14):
I'm sure many in Berlin and Paris in particular find it too hard to swallow that Poland is too big to be easily pacified as Ireland has been, not easily jumping the bandwagon of cheap, euroleftist anti-Americanism,

Ahem, I wonder which European government stands out as being "cheap, euroleftist" and "anti-American" in your book, and since when parts of the Indian press is likewise "euroleftist" and "anti-American": The Hindu on the Kaczynskis

But I guess the true reason why other Europeans (particularly Germans, but as well as many Poles, I'm sure) are a bit baffled is, that the twins
a) try to (mis-)use fallen Poles to increase the voting weight of Poland
b) receive support from an anti-semitic, fundamentalist Catholic broadcaster, that is Radio Marija
c) wanted Mrs. Merkel to bring an essayist to court who nick-named the twins "potatoes" in a German newspaper.
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rineanna
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:45 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 19):
Nice touch.

Pardon? I was merely quoting the word medievil from his post.
 
Doona
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voter

Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 21):
Pardon? I was merely quoting the word medievil from his post.

Oh, I thought you were making a crack. AFAIK, it's spelled "medieval" and not "medievil". Regional difference in spelling, perhaps.  silly   white 

Cheers
Mats
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:41 pm

There are several things which currently p%ss me off:

a) the twin's tactics of using a fear mongering tactics, constantlytelling their population if they (the twins) wouldn't be on guard, Germany would just cross the border one day again to reclaim the land which we lost after WW2. While I'm not sure about Putin's intentions and I trust him about as I can throw him, I know that, beside a noisy, but very small minority of ultra-rightwings in Germany, NOBODY wants any adventures. The only way you will have Germany back in Poland (or the Czech Republic btw.) is either through international marriage (it is actually on the rise), or Germans working or studying in Poland or the Czech Republic and moving there, fully ccepting the souvereignity of both the Czech and Polish governments in their respective countries in the post 1945 borders.

b) With the latest expansion of the EU we received a lot of poorer members, who are entiteled to subsidies. On the other hand we have a lot of older members, who also receive subsidies, in some cases for decades (Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland, France, etc.). I exclude Ireland in a way, since Ireland has been using the money wisely and IMO will sooner or later be a net contributor instead of a net receiver.
The net contributors can not increase their payments (I know that in the past decades, especially with Genscher as minister of foreign affairs Germany regularly defused conflicts by pulling out the cheque book, but this doesn't work anymore), so the common pot has to be spread wider, this means everybody gets less. Why do you think that countries like France, Spain etc. were so much against an EU expansion to the East? They knew that they would have to share their subsidies with other countries.
Also, the current EU structures (vote by country, not by population) allow it that the receiving countries can basically unilaterally increase subsidies without the paying countries having a say in this matter. This is basically taxation without representation. Also the current set of multilateral treaties allows it that single countries block the whole decision making process for ALL decisions by vetoes to enforce their special interests (e.g. Greece with Cyprus and Poland now concerning the ban of Polish meat in Russia)
We need a basic set of rules about decision making in the EU, which replaces the heap of multilateral treaties and allows for majority decisions instead of concensus.
I think the original constitution as proposed 2 years ago is dead. It is a bureacratic monster. A constitution has to be short and just provide the basic set of rules. It also has to remove power from the appointed set of bureaucrats of the commision currently ruling in Brussels to the EU parliament (and I hope that then the EU population will take them more serious and prevent it to be used by their own country's politicians as a pre-retirement grazing ground for out-of-date politicians).
While the old, proposed constitution is dead, I'm against moves e.g. by the UK to block any DISCUSSION about a working one.

c) Anti-Americanism: Face it, the EU often has different interests than the US, which after all is sited on a different continent. While we should be Allies with the US, we should not be the lap dogs and should uphold our own interests.

d)Abortion: While I'm an atheist, I think that the matter of abortion in Poland is a Polish affair. I think though that there is a kind of European concensus, which most EU countries follow, allowing abortion during the first trimester of pregnancy after medical and social consultation, and a ban on later periods (except in the case of danger to the the woman's life). I think somewhere in medium future Poland and Ireland will probaly reach there as well.

Jan
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 20):
I wonder which European government stands out as being "cheap, euroleftist" and "anti-American" in your book

fmr. Schroeder's, Zapatero's, Prodi's, Fico's (now that is one bizarre bunch), that fat f*ck Paroubek's we had a as a PM until last summer and probably any given French gov't by default.

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 21):
Pardon? I was merely quoting the word medievil from his post.

Next time try to use the "quote selected text" button...

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 20):
But I guess the true reason why other Europeans (particularly Germans, but as well as many Poles, I'm sure) are a bit baffled is, that the twins
a) try to (mis-)use fallen Poles to increase the voting weight of Poland
b) receive support from an anti-semitic, fundamentalist Catholic broadcaster, that is Radio Marija
c) wanted Mrs. Merkel to bring an essayist to court who nick-named the twins "potatoes" in a German newspaper.

Show me one example where I defended Kaczynski's policies. Please.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 20):
Indian press is likewise "euroleftist"

This particular one probably is since they deem any right-wing government automatically a "headache".

Poland is likely to be the first in a series of headaches for the EU as Europeans make a definite shift to the right, even favouring extreme right parties. In Belgium and France the extreme right Vlaams Belang (formerly Vlaams Blok) and National Front parties have made steady gains in popularity and the Czechs appear to be on the brink of naming a right wing government after months of political deadlock.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:10 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
This particular one probably is since they deem any right-wing government automatically a "headache".

Poland is likely to be the first in a series of headaches for the EU as Europeans make a definite shift to the right, even favouring extreme right parties. In Belgium and France the extreme right Vlaams Belang (formerly Vlaams Blok) and National Front parties have made steady gains in popularity and the Czechs appear to be on the brink of naming a right wing government after months of political deadlock.

I don't know about your new Czech government, but AFAIK the Belgian Vlaams Block and the National Front of Le Pen are in about the same category as the German NPD, ultra-nationalist, barely within constitutional limits, bordering on fascism. I don't think that even you would like THEM to have any power. If parties like this ever came to power in Germany (and I think this is where I would go underground), expect massive claims for territorial resitution.

Jan
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paulc
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:13 pm

The original constitution died the moment it was rejected by Holland and France. The fact that most of what was contained in it is proposed for this 'amending treaty' is frankly apalling and highlights exactly one of many reasons why the EU is unpopular.
If it continues to ignore the democratic wishes of people then sooner or later there will be trouble. Historically a forced union will always struggle and eventually break up - look at the balkan states and the USSR.

If the EU is such a great idea and the politicians believe it is - let them and the media try to convince us to make an informed decision rather than sign us up for something without really telling us what it is.
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rineanna
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:38 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
Next time try to use the "quote selected text" button...

How kind of you to point that out.  sarcastic 
I'm well aware of that function; it was more convenient to just quote the single word in the sentence rather then use that function but thanks for your most welcome assistance.

Quoting Doona (Reply 22):
Oh, I thought you were making a crack. AFAIK, it's spelled "medieval" and not "medievil". Regional difference in spelling, perhaps

Oh sorry, my bad. I see why you said it was a 'nice touch' now!  Wink
 
LH526
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting Doona (Reply 2):
It seems odd to me that while trying to gain more influence in the EU, Poland is still quite... non-progressive on issues like gay rigths and abortion, which does not correspond with the mainstream EU. How do they expect to be given more influence and power when they blatantly show that they don't share important values with the other member nations?

RIGHT!! Either accept the EU values, or stay out! Don't just pick the best raisins and neglect your duties an EU membership brings with you.

Back to topic .. if that is the case, Poland will be blamed by other countries (Goths) wich will transfer the claims to Sweden (The origin of the Goths), and you can't even imagine what charges Rome will get for their 2.000+ history!

Maybe, hundreds of thousands of years ago, one chimp killed another by throwing a stone, that dead chimp could be the fathersfather of all Luxembrug people, who, calculating them all up to current figures, would add up to 1Bn people .. now where does that leave the rest?

Nazi genocide was the darkes period in european history, part of my family got killed .. but don't use millions of dead people for your current political strategy!

Mario
LH526
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Pyrex
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting LH526 (Reply 28):
RIGHT!! Either accept the EU values, or stay out! Don't just pick the best raisins and neglect your duties an EU membership brings with you.

Again, is abortion a duty that EU membership brings? I seemed to miss that one in the acession treaty...
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Banco
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting LH526 (Reply 28):
RIGHT!! Either accept the EU values, or stay out! Don't just pick the best raisins and neglect your duties an EU membership brings with you.

So democracies aren't allowed to argue their case amongst other democracies? Fascinating. I thought that was exactly what it was for. But clearly not. Every country must do what the others tell them instead, whilst the opinions of the populations in those democracies clearly don't count for anything in your view, they just get in the way.

Marvellous. And you wonder why when they get given a vote the people have a tendency to kick the EU in the face.  Yeah sure
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voter

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 30):
Every country must do what the others tell them instead, whilst the opinions of the populations in those democracies clearly don't count for anything in your view, they just get in the way.

But this works also the other way around. I have got the slight felling that we are getting milked, e.g. more and more of my tax money goes into excessive subsidies, without us having a say. E.g. if the voting rights in the EU go by country, the majority of the EU countries are net receivers, so they can always tell the net contributors to pay more. On the other hand, the biggest net contributors are also the countries with the biggest population, so if the vote goes per population, the net contributors have the bigger say. You British are exempt in way anyway due to the cap on EU contributions you got under Thatcher.

The other thing wich annoys me concerning the current Polish government are the constant accusation concerning our past. I'm not my grandfather and I'm not personally responsible for what my grandfather's generation has done. Period.

Jan
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Banco
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
You British are exempt in way anyway due to the cap on EU contributions you got under Thatcher.

No we aren't. We are a major net contributor. It's just that without the rebate we'd be by miles the biggest contributor. And quite frankly, the prospect of paying in more money whilst the EU continues to piss it away on the rampantly corrupt CAP and utterly incompetent EC appeals not a jot. Your government should be saying the same thing. If they aren't, more fool you.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voter

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
You British are exempt in way anyway due to the cap on EU contributions you got under Thatcher.

No we aren't. We are a major net contributor. It's just that without the rebate we'd be by miles the biggest contributor. And quite frankly, the prospect of paying in more money whilst the EU continues to piss it away on the rampantly corrupt CAP and utterly incompetent EC appeals not a jot. Your government should be saying the same thing. If they aren't, more fool you.

This is a leftover of the Genscherist cheque book appeasement politics. We don't tend to stand our ground, mainly due to our past. We rather pay than to use our political or economical clout, to avoid being seen as bullies, which we were in the early 20th century.
We also have the habit to look at a nice looking theory first and then try to adapt the reality to the theory, see e.g. the current Airbus arguments. This is also why the accusations of the type the twins are making now used to work so well in the past. Remind us of our Nazi past and we were sure to give in.
Germany gave up nearly all it's influence on the Airbus boards due to the government's belief that privatisation is the way forward and the government should stay out of business. The French government on the other hand has, over the last years, increased it's influence and is now actively trying to push out the other European members of the consortium to make Airbus a purely French company, on the expense of jobs in Germany.

Jan
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Banco
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 33):
Germany gave up nearly all it's influence on the Airbus boards due to the government's belief that privatisation is the way forward and the government should stay out of business. The French government on the other hand has, over the last years, increased it's influence and is now actively trying to push out the other European members of the consortium to make Airbus a purely French company, on the expense of jobs in Germany.

Which of course is exactly why BAE Systems wanted nothing whatever to do with EADS, or indeed Airbus - and is why the company is something of a basket case.
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NoUFO
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voter

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
fmr. Schroeder's, Zapatero's, Prodi's, Fico's (now that is one bizarre bunch), that fat f*ck Paroubek's we had a as a PM until last summer and probably any given French gov't by default.

You are quick with calling people "anti-american". I thought Schroeder was too vocal in his opposition to the war on Iraq. But even in this case it showed that the U.S. can actually rely on Germany: Intelligence services continued to work closely together, the U.S. continued to use bases in Germany to plan and execute attacks on Iraq. Germany provided NBC tanks and AA missiles - the list goes on. Maybe rather call Dr. Rice anti-German for saying that she was not sure if Germany was actually interested in world-peace? As for Zapatero and Prodi: Both are about as harmless as one can get - in contrast to the two twins. And if you insist on calling them anti-American, is it ok for you to call the Kaczynskis anti-German?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
Show me one example where I defended Kaczynski's policies. Please.

That's not the point.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
This particular one probably is since they deem any right-wing government automatically a "headache".

I refer to Jan's post. The newspaper expressively mentioned not conservative but right-wing movements that, without exception, show extremist tendencies. And extremists can cause a headache - or a lot more.

[Edited 2007-06-22 18:15:56]
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Beaucaire
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 33):
The French government on the other hand has, over the last years, increased it's influence and is now actively trying to push out the other European members of the consortium to make Airbus a purely French company, on the expense of jobs in Germany.

Einspruch !
I think the new management of EADS tries to make Airbus a more international compagny based on $ cost share providers.Meaning outsourcing to $ invoicable manufacturing-which implies more shares of Indian,Russian and Chinese sub-contracting.That will decrease the workload for Germany on the long-run but also for France.
Let's face it,the French Airbus management might be not much liked in Germany ,but they are managing the re-vival of the company after the A380 desaster quite nicely.Gallois does a good job considering the shit he inherited.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 36):
Einspruch !
I think the new management of EADS tries to make Airbus a more international compagny based on $ cost share providers.Meaning outsourcing to $ invoicable manufacturing-which implies more shares of Indian,Russian and Chinese sub-contracting.That will decrease the workload for Germany on the long-run but also for France.
Let's face it,the French Airbus management might be not much liked in Germany ,but they are managing the re-vival of the company after the A380 desaster quite nicely.Gallois does a good job considering the shit he inherited.

This might work in the short run, but I think in the long run it will be a mistake. Basically we are giving away our knowledge base. Just see what has happened with the German designed Maglev in China. I expect that within a decade or so the world aircraft market will be flooded by cheap Chinese copies.

Jan
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Beaucaire
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:09 am

I fully see your point and have read about the A320 in China who might have been cut to pieces for the sake of reverse-engineering.What are the options ?
Unfortunately America will do all it can to keep the current level of exchange for the $ to €.Airbus has no intentions to give away technical secrets.To re-build an airframe is one thing,to come up with flight-management software,sytems integration and modern engine-sytems is a completely different ball-game.
China ,Russia and India have a wealth if skilled engineering ,material and software-resources.Competing with Boeing,Airbus and Embraer might become an issue in twenty years,but today we have to build on true partnership with reliable companies there ,in order to bring cost's down.
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dl021
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:19 am

On the

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 24):
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 20):
I wonder which European government stands out as being "cheap, euroleftist" and "anti-American" in your book

fmr. Schroeder's, Zapatero's, Prodi's, Fico's (now that is one bizarre bunch), that fat f*ck Paroubek's we had a as a PM until last summer and probably any given French gov't by default.

That's really funny and quick.

Let's say for a moment that all other political considerations are gone......the Polish did lose millions from being invaded..... why should they suffer politically now in a population weighted treaty because they lost those people and their descendents? Especially when their loss causes them to be weighted less than the nation that invaded them in living memory?

I'd like to hear the opinions.
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Klaus
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voter

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 39):
Let's say for a moment that all other political considerations are gone......the Polish did lose millions from being invaded..... why should they suffer politically now in a population weighted treaty because they lost those people and their descendents? Especially when their loss causes them to be weighted less than the nation that invaded them in living memory?

Because settling real or imaginary scores has a long and infamous history of being an extremely bad idea.

The European Union, on the other hand, thrives on cooperation and mutual support (which "even" the current polish government doesn't have the slightest qualms accepting by the billions).

Trying to force your will on others rarely works well in the long run. Negotiating in good faith and with a certain minimum of fairness towards other parties' interest is much more productive.

Even the USA have made that experience in recent years; And emulating especially the worst aspects of the failed Bush presidency is not a good choice for a polish government.

It's all about wasted chances for minimal or negative return.
 
Banco
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
Trying to force your will on others rarely works well in the long run.

Quite right, Klaus. Couldn't agree more.  Wink
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Klaus
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voter

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 41):
Quite right, Klaus. Couldn't agree more.

Excellent. When you're a fully qualified partner in a common project, that also means you can't limit your own role to permanent blockade and prevention of nearly everything others are interested in.

But from all apearances, being a fully qualified partner has never stood high on the british agenda, now has it?  mischievous 
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voter

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:31 am

Read the first sentence I quoted from the newspaper. Does 12% for the Vlaams Block in recent Belgian elections and 4 % for the FN in French elections few weeks ago or few seats on some god-forsaken regional assembly for the NPD seem like "favouring extreme right parties" to you or is it left-wingers being alarmist? Too bad they are not at least as much concerned about +- 15% of electoral vote for the most stalinist communist party there is. Czech communists.
Never mind, only now i noticed the "opinion" heading of the article.


Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
I don't know about your new Czech government

Probably neither they do. The right-wing party - ODS -that won the election (and later formed a coalition with christian democrats and greens) has the most pro-EU electorate. That of course does not mean that they will nod to everything that comes from the EU (that's was soc-dem government's specialty ). If that constitutes to be "headache" for the EUrocrats, then they certainly are a headache.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
Face it, the EU often has different interests than the US, which after all is sited on a different continent.

I'd say that the EU has more often common interests than it does not. Another problem is that whenever there is a problem the EU is completely incapable of any action (Balkan wars).


Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
While we should be Allies with the US, we should not be the lap dogs and should uphold our own interests.

But then we should not be stuck waist-deep in Putin's ass because of lousy gas pipeline, should we???

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
And if you insist on calling them anti-American, is it ok for you to call the Kaczynskis anti-German?

Absolutely. To make myself clear one more time. I have absolutely no problem with Poland having adequate say within the EU and I support it (the country, not the government officials). However, they should not try achieve it at all costs and definitely not using unfair, cheap shots.

Quoting LH526 (Reply 28):
RIGHT!! Either accept the EU values, or stay out! Don't just pick the best raisins and neglect your duties an EU membership brings with you.

I'd like to see you define the "duties" you mentioned.

[Edited 2007-06-22 20:59:48]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 39):
Let's say for a moment that all other political considerations are gone......the Polish did lose millions from being invaded..... why should they suffer politically now in a population weighted treaty because they lost those people and their descendents? Especially when their loss causes them to be weighted less than the nation that invaded them in living memory?

I don't think this will pull. Assumed WW2 and the German attrocities accompanying it would not have happened, the borders of both Poland and Germany would be very much different. Many Polish citizens of today would in fact be German citizens, since the heavily populated regions Silesia, Pommerania and Poznan with their previously mixed populations as well as East prussia would still belong to Germany. Poland on the other hand would include parts of today's Belorus, Ukraine and Russia. Germany without WW2 would probably have an even bigger population and without the Nazis the Polish part of the former German eastern provinces would be firmly integrated, same as the Polish population of the Ruhr area (miners and their decendants from Poland who settled there in the 19th century) were integrated (thus the many Kowalskis etc. in this region). Prewar Germany was the European country with the highest population as well.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 43):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 23):
While we should be Allies with the US, we should not be the lap dogs and should uphold our own interests.

But then we should not be stuck waist-deep in Putin's ass because of lousy gas pipeline, should we???

Definitely not! As I said, when it became public that Schroeder went for a wellpaid retirement post with Gazprom, he lost all political credibility in Germany. Most people who used to vote for him (myself included) would not vote for him again. His political career is finished. All he has is Putin.
Merkel (whom I was originaly suspicious if she was up to the job) has proven to be a very good no nonsense politician. (it might be bercause unlike most other politicians she was neither a civil servant, a politologist, a sociologist or a lawyer before, but a physicist). I also support her clear distance from Putin, as could be seen when she approached Russian opposition politicians against Putin's wishes (she speaks fluent Russian). I think that by now most Germans are rather suspicious of Putin and his gang (though not of the Russian population in general, as it was during the cold war). We also realised that we need to spread our energy sources as not to become too dependent of Russia. This could also be seen in the German opposition of the Russian government increasing it's stake in Airbus.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Klaus
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 45):
As I said, when it became public that Schroeder went for a wellpaid retirement post with Gazprom, he lost all political credibility in Germany. Most people who used to vote for him (myself included) would not vote for him again. His political career is finished. All he has is Putin.
Merkel (whom I was originaly suspicious if she was up to the job) has proven to be a very good no nonsense politician. (it might be bercause unlike most other politicians she was neither a civil servant, a politologist, a sociologist or a lawyer before, but a physicist). I also support her clear distance from Putin, as could be seen when she approached Russian opposition politicians against Putin's wishes (she speaks fluent Russian).

I agree completely on both counts.
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 45):
Merkel (whom I was originaly suspicious if she was up to the job) has proven to be a very good no nonsense politician. (it might be bercause unlike most other politicians she was neither a civil servant, a politologist, a sociologist or a lawyer before, but a physicist).

Agreed- but just now she is accepting Polish blackmailing in a way that is not good for Europe !
If the twins get all what they request -and it looks like Merkel is giving in..- the EEC has lost all of the little credibility it still had..
Why not accepting similar stupid request from other nations based on historic events????
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dl021
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voters...

Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
Because settling real or imaginary scores has a long and infamous history of being an extremely bad idea.

That's a valid point...most of the conflict in Europe in the last 100 years has been about using old scores to justify the violent settlement of real estate claims (as in most other places).....but is it settling scores or is asking for fair consideration?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
Negotiating in good faith and with a certain minimum of fairness towards other parties' interest is much more productive

Tell me where that happens in the world moreso than pushing for one's own national advantage? Including in the EU...

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 44):
Many Polish citizens of today would in fact be German citizens, since the heavily populated regions Silesia, Pommerania and Poznan with their previously mixed populations as well as East prussia would still belong to Germany.

Thatnks for the logic, Jan, I really had not thought of that. The population balancing through the post war real estate/border shifting made a difference....if anything Russia owes Poland some land (or the Ukraine does by proxy). Excellent point.....

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 45):
Merkel (whom I was originaly suspicious if she was up to the job) has proven to be a very good no nonsense politician. (it might be bercause unlike most other politicians she was neither a civil servant, a politologist, a sociologist or a lawyer before, but a physicist).

Perhaps we should look at preventing lawyers and civil servants from being eligible for the highest executive offices......

Quoting Klaus (Reply 46):
I agree completely on both counts.

I think we all three agree that she's not the brutish peasant many thought she'd be in office. Her leadership has so far been fairly honest, direct and seemingly effective.
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Klaus
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RE: Poland's President :count Polish Dead As Voter

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 48):
That's a valid point...most of the conflict in Europe in the last 100 years has been about using old scores to justify the violent settlement of real estate claims (as in most other places).....

Indeed. And the desire to abolish exactly that has been one of the main driving forces behind the establishment of the European Union. It never was just a free trade zone as some britons claim it to be. That was just one consequential but ultimately marginal side effect.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 48):
but is it settling scores or is asking for fair consideration?

When it's delivered within a deluge of openly hostile germanophobic propaganda, it's not really in question, is it?  eyebrow 

Apart from the Kaczinsky madness, Germany actually did a lot to promote Poland's accession to the EU and it gladly pays a major part of the EU funds that are flowing into the country for infrastructure improvement and many other EU-funded projects.

Apart from the top level, cooperation works pretty well, and the respective german governments have made every effort to improve cooperation at the top as well. The deterioration of the situation has been a strictly one-sided choice.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 48):
Tell me where that happens in the world moreso than pushing for one's own national advantage? Including in the EU...

There is nothing bad in promoting one's own advantage. But the essential thing with the EU is that there is a large body of common interests which are furthered best when everybody's interests are advanced. Not everybody understands this principle, but in practice shortsighted egoism does take a back seat to a remarkable and historically unprecedented extent.

The bickering often gets the headlines, but the stunning success of the European Union in the historically very short time since its establishment cannot be overlooked.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 48):
I think we all three agree that she's not the brutish peasant many thought she'd be in office. Her leadership has so far been fairly honest, direct and seemingly effective.

I'd even vote for her - unfortunately that would mean I'd have to vote for her wretched party, the CDU/CSU...

And it's a good thing she wasn't in charge earlier - we'd be knee-deep in the Iraq mess since Merkel had been sucking up to Bush quite intensely back in the days. Fortunately for everybody (including for herself), she didn't have a chance back then to screw this up. I'm almost certain she couldn't be happier now that Schröder set a different course than she would have done.

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