Pope
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Good Job Senate Democrats

Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:41 pm

Hat's off to the Democratically controlled Senate for pushing this through. I agree with the aggressive (40%) increase in fleet fuel economy standards. I'd like to see what the price gouging language is because I feel that it may throw the baby out with the bath water. As for the ethanol production - it's a red herring. If every lb of corn grown in the US was converted to ethanol, only 20% of our petroleum based energy needs would be met (and can you imagine what the price of food would be).

However, since I don't believe there is one single magic bullet to solving the energy problems something is better than nothing. The GOP had been unwilling to confront Detroit on these issues for far too long and the Senate Democrats deserve to take a bow for pushing this through. Let's see if the House can get on board and get this done.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/21/congress.energy.ap/index.html
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Go Job Senate Democrats

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:18 pm

Looking at it again, I really like this part:

"Grants, loan guarantees and other assistance to promote research into fuel efficient vehicles, including hybrids, advanced diesel and battery technologies. percent ethanol or biodiesel fuels."

I wonder how far the oil gurus will let that go, though.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:14 am

And hats off to you, Pope, for acknowledging a relatively small, but still meaningful, bit of progress by the Democratic Senate.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 1):
I wonder how far the oil gurus will let that go, though.

Having seen so many tech companies go under when they refused to recognize the future (e.g., the Wangs and Polariods of the world), it would only make sense for the petroleum industry to look seriously into alternative energy sources sooner rather than later...
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
Pope
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 2):
And hats off to you, Pope, for acknowledging a relatively small, but still meaningful, bit of progress by the Democratic Senate.

Thanks for the kind words but I actually view this as a very big step in addressing the energy crisis. Until this year CAFE standards hadn't been modified in over 20 years. Now we're calling for a 40% improvement in 13 years. To me that;s a big deal.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 3):
I actually view this as a very big step in addressing the energy crisis

Well, it seems as though this progress has "flown under the RADAR" to many of us, at least here in Non-Av (myself included); hence my initial use of "relatively small." If it will be significant, then all the better. I suppose it would be nice if more people chimed in here, but that might be expecting too much from some of us...(had to get a shot in, don't you know   ).

[Edited 2007-06-22 18:20:23]
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
MDorBust
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:32 am

Trucks to have a 35mpg requirement by 2020?

There is going to be a huge commercial vehicle problem here.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:41 am

The biggest step in this bill I see is there being a fleet-wide fuel economy standard, rather than the current system of one for passenger cars and another for SUVs and small trucks.

I think the scare of what ethanol will do to food prices may be somewhat overrated, since corn isn't the only source from which ethanol can be made. Even wood and grasses will work. Our garbage collection here will allow you one regular garbage can load of yard debris a week. The rest of it you have to bury. I wonder if they can make ethanol refineries small enough, so that yard debris could become a cash crop for garbage systems--haul away as much as they can collect for delivery to local ethanol refineries. God knows we have enough of it here.
International Homo of Mystery
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
Trucks to have a 35mpg requirement by 2020?

There is going to be a huge commercial vehicle problem here.

Well, the article states: "an agreement was reached to increase average fuel economy by 40 percent to 35 miles per gallon for cars, SUVs and pickup trucks by 2020."

These fuel economy ratings are standardized, so they probably don't reflect larger loads that commerical pickup trucks may haul during a workday. I don't know for sure, but the fuel economy ratings may be for each vehicle with a nominal load. Since the implication is that, for at least part of the time, a truck or car will be nearly empty, the average rating can still be justified.

So, they have 13 years to get thy sh@t together. If we can put a man on the moon in less than 10 years, I'm bettin' we can do this. That is, if the Republican Senators will stop beefing about what a horrible imposition this is on oil companies:

Also from the article: "Republicans complained that the energy bill is tilted too much toward renewables and fuel efficiency and does nothing to boost domestic oil or natural gas production." and:

"Republicans blocked Democratic efforts to pass a $32 billion package of tax incentives for renewable energy and clean fuels, objecting to increasing taxes on oil companies by $29 billion over 10 years to pay for it."
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
Queso
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
Good Job

How can you say "good job" to them? It was actually the Republicans that did the good job by squashing the huge tax on oil companies the dems wanted to add to the bill! Talk about high gas prices, where the hell do the dems think that money would have come from? Do they think the big oil companies would just sit back and pay that out of their profits? HELL NO, they would have made it up by passing that cost along to the consumer! Idiots!

As far as raising the CAFE standards, enjoy celebrating that while you can because it won't happen. First of all, it will be a simple matter for the auto manufacturers will come to Congress in a few years and say that the goal is technically unreachable and get it pushed back. Second, (putting on libertarian hat) why do we even need another stupid law for this? Let the market decide, if people want cars that get better fuel economy, they are out there right now and they'll buy them.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 1):
I wonder how far the oil gurus will let that go, though.

All the way.. They get paid regardless when you buy the ethanol mixed with their gasoline at one of their gas stations. Their profit is still built into the price. It changes nothing except maybe, someday, taking the load off maxed out refineries.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
cfalk
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
Hat's off to the Democratically controlled Senate for pushing this through. I agree with the aggressive (40%) increase in fleet fuel economy standards.

I agree on the goal, I don't agree about how they are going about getting there. Just mandating the standard and telling the car companies, "go build them" ain't gonna work. If they can afford the gas, they will continue buying their big SUVs and Hummers. Few people actually like driving a car that gets 35 mpg, and they won't do it unless it is absolutely uneconomical to buy anything bigger.

Which means that in order to shape consumer's buying habits, the auto companies are going to have to jack up the price of larger cars that don't get 35 mpg in order to subsidize the fuel-efficient ones. For example, if the price of a Chevy Tahoe (25 mpg) goes from $40,000 to $60,000, they can use the extra $20,000 to subsidize the little Chevy Aveo, and sell two Aveos for only $2,000 or $3,000 each ($10K discount each). One 25 mpg car plus two 40 mpg cars, and there you have your 35 mpg fleet average.

Of course that situation would be completely ridiculous. The market would be extremely volitile as automakers make continuous radical adjustments on the prices and internal subsidies. In short, a disaster.

The better way to do it is to announce that, starting in 2010, there will be a federal fuel tax hike of $0.50 cents per gallon, increasing every year after that by another $0.20 until the average car or truck sold gets 35 mpg. Let people decide, knowing that gas prices are going sharply north, what car they want to buy, and let the market decide.

I am generally a very anti-tax person. But increasing the gas tax over time would be a voluntary tax. You want to pay less? Get a little Hybrid next year instead of the Tahoe. Simple as that. Taxes designed to modify behaviour for the common good is better than just mandating the market to behave in a way it is not designed to do.

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
As for the ethanol production - it's a red herring. If every lb of corn grown in the US was converted to ethanol, only 20% of our petroleum based energy needs would be met (and can you imagine what the price of food would be).

 checkmark 

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
However, since I don't believe there is one single magic bullet to solving the energy problems something is better than nothing. The GOP had been unwilling to confront Detroit on these issues for far too long and the Senate Democrats deserve to take a bow for pushing this through.

I agree, but I would like the bill to include more accessible and concrete options, like making high-quality diesel fuel available in the US (like the fuel they sell in Europe - well suited for passenger cars). If half the US auto fleet converted to diesel, like in Europe, the 35 mpg goal would be half-achieved right there.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
Trucks to have a 35mpg requirement by 2020?

There is going to be a huge commercial vehicle problem here.

Pickups and SUVs, not the big-rigs.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
andessmf
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
I think the scare of what ethanol will do to food prices may be somewhat overrated, since corn isn't the only source from which ethanol can be made

They already had food riots in Mexico over this. The problem is that corn is about the worst thing to use to convert to ethanol, but that is what is being pushed. Brazil uses a lot of sugar cane for their ethanol, but I don't believe our corn-growing states have the climate to support sugar cane. Plus ethanol only has 75% of the BTUs that gasoline has, so your gas mileage goes down that much by using ethanol.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 1):
battery technologies

I would KILL anyone who suggests using batteries. These are poisonous. There are now regulations that don't allow the disposal of normal batteries in the garbage, and I can imagine what will occur in the future with even more batteries being used. And batteries have a nasty habit of lasting very little, including the rechargable kind.

They should use turbines for engines, instead of the typical car engine now.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 8):
First of all, it will be a simple matter for the auto manufacturers will come to Congress in a few years and say that the goal is technically unreachable and get it pushed back.

First of all, it is not technically unreachable (heck, you could do it with today's technology - see below). Second of all, sometimes the only way things get done is when someone orders things to get done (in the 1970's they also said it would be impossible to reduce car emissions the amount that was being proposed. As soon as it was mandated someone came up with catalytic convertors and unleaded fuel).

Quoting Queso (Reply 8):
Let the market decide, if people want cars that get better fuel economy, they are out there right now and they'll buy them.

Yeah right - when was the last time the "free market" actually worked in something related to the environment (or any other regulatory issue for that matter). In a "free market" you would still be applying lead-based paint to the walls of your house.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
But increasing the gas tax over time would be a voluntary tax. You want to pay less? Get a little Hybrid next year instead of the Tahoe. Simple as that.

The problem with that is your are hurting some people with the behaviors of others. I might be driving a Prius but if everyone around me has a Tahoe I get stuffed with that tax as well.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
If half the US auto fleet converted to diesel, like in Europe, the 35 mpg goal would be half-achieved right there.

 checkmark  Heck, most of the diesel vehicles sold in Europe (in number of vehicles sold at least - probably not in terms of number of available models) reach that already.
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cfalk
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 11):
I would KILL anyone who suggests using batteries. These are poisonous. There are now regulations that don't allow the disposal of normal batteries in the garbage, and I can imagine what will occur in the future with even more batteries being used. And batteries have a nasty habit of lasting very little, including the rechargable kind.

Actually, hybrid cars are turning out to be incredibly polluting, mainly because of those batteries. Building a Prius creates more pollution than the building of a Hummer, and when you factor in the fact that the expected road life of a Hummer is 3 or 4 times that of a Prius, it kinda tips the scales.

I love it... All those Hollywood geeks who like to show how they care about the planet by driving hybrids are going to have to sell them off now.

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
If half the US auto fleet converted to diesel, like in Europe, the 35 mpg goal would be half-achieved right there.

What about our health-based goals for particulate matter (PM2.5 and PM10) emissions? Thousands of people die each year from from particulate inhalation, and diesel engines are a major contributor to PM emissions.

Reference: http://www.epa.gov/Region5/air/naaqs/pm.htm
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
Trucks to have a 35mpg requirement by 2020?

There is going to be a huge commercial vehicle problem here.

In Japan, most commercial vehicles that do long distance highway driving already reach a standard about equivalent to that.

Quoting Queso (Reply 8):
Talk about high gas prices

When gas prices in the US get over $4.50 and compare to those in the rest of the developed world, then you'll be permitted to use the adjective "high".
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Queso
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 15):
In Japan, most commercial vehicles that do long distance highway driving already reach a standard about equivalent to that.

When Japan has a road more than 1,000 miles long you will be permitted to use the term "long distance highway driving".
 
Pope
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 8):
How can you say "good job" to them? It was actually the Republicans that did the good job by squashing the huge tax on oil companies the dems wanted to add to the bill! Talk about high gas prices, where the hell do the dems think that money would have come from? Do they think the big oil companies would just sit back and pay that out of their profits? HELL NO, they would have made it up by passing that cost along to the consumer! Idiots!



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
I agree on the goal, I don't agree about how they are going about getting there. Just mandating the standard and telling the car companies, "go build them" ain't gonna work

You guys. First of all the GOP had over 10 years to do something on this regard and didn't get squat done on this matter. Therefore, we've lost the right to criticize when the Democrats work on passing a bill that, though it is not perfect, is a tangible step in the right direction. He who is silent is said to consent. The GOP has been silent on this matter.

As for the "go build it" mentaility - I disagree with you. We put a man on the moon in less than 10 years we can sure as hell make the US car fleet as efficient as the rest of the world's. The car standards are currently 27. The 2020 standard is 35 mpg. That's a 29.6% change in a period of 13 years. This represents a 2% annual compounded increase in efficiency. Are you telling me that technology won't allow this or that we as American's simply don't have the will to accomplish it?
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
cfalk
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 14):
What about our health-based goals for particulate matter (PM2.5 and PM10) emissions? Thousands of people die each year from from particulate inhalation, and diesel engines are a major contributor to PM emissions.

Modern European-style diesels have particle traps. As far as other emissions, we have to decide what we want. I think the FIRST priority is to reduce dependence on oil, as this has a huge economic and political effect (Al Qaeda won't have money to operate if we stop paying for middle eastern oil). The SECOND priority is to reduce pollution rates.

I suggest you go to a major European city, find a recent model diesel Citroen or Audi, and sniff the back end of it while it's running. Your memories of Olds Cierra Cutlass diesel and the 350 diesel in the 80s, as well as the smells of Peterbilts etc are very much outdated. IF the proper fuel becomes available, that is.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
Pickups and SUVs, not the big-rigs.

I'm not talking about rigs. I'm talking about the F350 super duty the contractor who is going to fix your foundation shows up in.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 15):
In Japan, most commercial vehicles that do long distance highway driving already reach a standard about equivalent to that.

I assume you refer to the Fuso series trucks? They get 10-11 mpg.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
cfalk
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 16):
When Japan has a road more than 1,000 miles long you will be permitted to use the term "long distance highway driving".

Oooooo... 3 points!

Quoting Pope (Reply 17):
As for the "go build it" mentaility - I disagree with you. We put a man on the moon in less than 10 years we can sure as hell make the US car fleet as efficient as the rest of the world's. The car standards are currently 27. The 2020 standard is 35 mpg. That's a 29.6% change in a period of 13 years. This represents a 2% annual compounded increase in efficiency. Are you telling me that technology won't allow this or that we as American's simply don't have the will to accomplish it?

The problem is not so much the cars, but the trucks, which now average 22 mpg.

Cars today are heavier and more powerful than they were in 1970, but have still doubled their gas milage. That is because we have had several extremely big improvements in the meantime. Cars are now much, much better aerodynamically. But that's a one-time improvement. It would be virtually impossible to achieve a similar level of improvement again.

Secondly, all cars are fuel-injected, leading to another jump in efficiency compared to the old bowl carburators.

Improvements in fuel management and aerodynamics were revolutionary, but now improvements are more evolutionary. And I have not heard of the next revolutionary change coming down the pike.

Which means that people must downsize their cars (which I am all for). But I'd rather have it done by a system of voluntary taxation and letting the market handle the details.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
cfalk
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 19):
I'm not talking about rigs. I'm talking about the F350 super duty the contractor who is going to fix your foundation shows up in.

Check out the vehicles that contractors use in other countries. Like this one



2-litre diesel, gets about 30-35 mpg, and will carry just about anything the F350 will.

American contractors will just have to get rid of their small-penis complex.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Queso
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
2-litre diesel, gets about 30-35 mpg, and will carry just about anything the F350 will.

At 80mph? I seriously doubt it would get 30-35mpg fully loaded at 80mph. Maybe empty at 35mph.
 
L-188
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
2-litre diesel, gets about 30-35 mpg, and will carry just about anything the F350 will.

And about the half of the width,a quarter of the payload and incredibly top heavy. Completely uncomparable.

There is only so much energy in a gallon of gasoline, and the jack-ass party heading congress passing some law isn't going to change that.

Nobody talks about the miserable milage that hybrids get in winter, or the heavy metals involved with manufacturing or disposing of their batteries.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 7):
If we can put a man on the moon in less than 10 years, I'm bettin' we can do this.



Quoting Pope (Reply 17):
We put a man on the moon in less than 10 years we can sure as hell make the US car fleet as efficient as the rest of the world's.

There must be a full moon or something!  Wink

Quoting L-188 (Reply 23):
There is only so much energy in a gallon of gasoline, and the jack-ass party heading congress passing some law isn't going to change that.

Your objectivity is just plain stunning. Perhaps you didn't notice I quoted from the article:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 7):
"Republicans blocked Democratic efforts to pass a $32 billion package of tax incentives for renewable energy and clean fuels, objecting to increasing taxes on oil companies by $29 billion over 10 years to pay for it."

They Democratic lead Senate wasn't trying to intimate that we can get more energy from a gallon of gasoline; rather, that other energy sources are needed and tax incentives should be granted to those who pursue said alternatives.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
MDorBust
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 21):
Check out the vehicles that contractors use in other countries. Like this one



2-litre diesel, gets about 30-35 mpg, and will carry just about anything the F350 will.

That's a Mitsubishi Fuso Canter.

Remember my post?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 19):
I assume you refer to the Fuso series trucks? They get 10-11 mpg.

And yes, that is the MPG number for it being operted as a working truck. 15-20 mpg is often quoted as it's empty fuel consumption. I have never seen anything to indicate it can get 30-35mpg.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Falcon84
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:52 am

Dear God....I'm having a coronary......Pope actually CONGRATULATED the Democrats...and it wasn't in jest.......

goodbye, world!!!  faint 

 biggrin 
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
PPVRA
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 12):
Yeah right - when was the last time the "free market" actually worked in something related to the environment (or any other regulatory issue for that matter). In a "free market" you would still be applying lead-based paint to the walls of your house.

GE, RR, PWC, all built more fuel efficient engines without any subsidies. A production line is the epitome of economics/resource-saving. Boeing and Airbus going to lighter CFRPs to cut fuel consumption and other costs. BP and Shell working on cleaner fuels and marketing them that way (even in the USA). Enormous amount of investments into electric products, energy conservation (more efficient cables, engines, etc). Just because some politicians are screaming a higher number doesn't mean people aren't doing anything about it. Politicians like to call themselves the authority in environmental matters but they are the people who affect it the least (but they love taking credit for it!).

edit: BTW, the "Free Market" is you and me. Are you saying you are not doing your part to help the environment?

[Edited 2007-06-22 22:00:39]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
cfalk
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 22):
At 80mph? I seriously doubt it would get 30-35mpg fully loaded at 80mph. Maybe empty at 35mph.

Why would a contracter need to go faster than 35 mph?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 23):
And about the half of the width,a quarter of the payload and incredibly top heavy. Completely uncomparable.

Get a trailer.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 23):
There is only so much energy in a gallon of gasoline

There is about 30% more energy in a gallon of diesel.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 25):
That's a Mitsubishi Fuso Canter.

Remember my post?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 19):
I assume you refer to the Fuso series trucks? They get 10-11 mpg.

And yes, that is the MPG number for it being operted as a working truck. 15-20 mpg is often quoted as it's empty fuel consumption. I have never seen anything to indicate it can get 30-35mpg.

My shortcut caught up with me. I was looking at a new vehicle from Renault, rather similar in size and shape, with the 2 liter diesel and 8 litres/100 consumption (roughly 30 or so mpg). But all the pictures were in some Java crap so I just posted an old picture from a used car lot.

But the idea is still valid. Why do Americans insist on having vehicles so large you can see them from space? The F-350 is fine if you are pulling a 10-ton trailer, but how many people actually do pull a 10-ton trailer?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 27):
Politicians like to call themselves the authority in environmental matters but they are the people who affect it the least (but they love taking credit for it!).

The things is, unfortunately they are (not by their own initiative, mind you, but because of the pressure of a small bunch of motivated individuals). The examples you gave were not environment-related but economically-related (airlines are way more sensitive to fuel consumption than individuals as it is such a huge portion of their costs). The evolutions in engine technology that were indeed directly related to the environment (lower noise, lean burn combustors for reduced emissions, etc.) were essentially regulator-driven.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 27):
edit: BTW, the "Free Market" is you and me. Are you saying you are not doing your part to help the environment?

I am doing my part to help the environment, but could certainly do more. The "" in "Free Market" are there because free in some ways imply that all parties are in an equal standing in terms of the way they can make themselves heard, which very rarely happens.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
GuitrThree
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting Pope (Thread starter):
Hat's off to the Democratically controlled Senate for pushing this through

Sorry Pope, I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

There should be NO LIMITS on MPG requirements. Damn it, let the system do it's own work. Listen, gas is going up every day, every month, every year. Soon, it will be $4.00 a gallon. Why does it take the government to regulate car makers?

Listen, Toyota has been very successful with their Prius. Again, I wouldn't buy one, as I think that the putting hundreds of lbs of lead acid batteries into the ground every 5 years per car hurts the earth way more than lower gas mileage, but the point is that consumers will go where they have to to survive.

If gas gets to $4 a gallon, heavy SUV's will simply go away. People will not be able to put $150 per tank in them. It's that simple. GM, Chrysler, and Ford will have to adjust on their own to survive. It's been correctly stated that it's been 20 years since the last MPG requirement was put into place. It's '07. 20 years ago, it was '87. Look at the MPG of a V8 87 Pickup vs a same size V8 pickup of today. You'd be lucky to find a P/U with a small V8 that put out about 175 HP that got over 15MPG. Today, you find small V8's that put out 225-250 HP that get upwards of 20MPG. And all this happened without the miracle of the mandate of higher MPG brought to you by our wonderful government...

Let the car companies do their job and react to the market or wave goodbye to them. It's not any one Senators job to dictate to them how to run their company.
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MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 28):
Why would a contracter need to go faster than 35 mph?

They do tend to need to get to the work site.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 28):
The F-350 is fine if you are pulling a 10-ton trailer, but how many people actually do pull a 10-ton trailer?

Ever been in the country come hay baling time?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 28):
I was looking at a new vehicle from Renault

Why do I have to send an e-mail request to Renault to get the technical specs on the Maxity?

Funny discovery... the Renault Maxity is actually a Nissan truck, the Cabstar... with rebranding.

150hp 3.0L engine.. 3.5 ton class... listed MPG 22. Which is about par with the high end estimate for the Fuso. Want to bet it's loaded MPG is down near the Fusos?

Compare to Ford F350. 350hp 6.4L engine 2.5 ton class + 19,000lb towing 14-19 MPG

Listed as a direct competitor to the Fuso line of trucks and Isuzus NKR series. I really doubt it's managed to triple the MPG of the other two.

Do you have a source listing the fuel efficiency of the Renault product as being in the 30mpg range?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
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RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 28):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 23):
And about the half of the width,a quarter of the payload and incredibly top heavy. Completely uncomparable.

Get a trailer.

Trailers don't exactly add to fuel economy either. In fact I am real sure that a 1lb there will have a greater negative effect on MPG compared to on the vehicle. And then there are the issues of length and drivablity.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 20):
Cars today are heavier and more powerful than they were in 1970, but have still doubled their gas milage

They also have a lot of weight added in sound systems, Emissions equipment, Safety equipment.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 28):
Why would a contracter need to go faster than 35 mph?

Depends on if they are paid by the job or the hour.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 18):
FIRST priority is to reduce dependence on oil, as this has a huge economic and political effect (Al Qaeda won't have money to operate if we stop paying for middle eastern oil)

Agree this would be a great thing. But I also note that we are also now starting to see the situation where money for expanded refinery capacity is being withheld or funneled to Ethanol facilities because E85 is being increasingly mandated. Why pay money for a refinery that is going to be obsoleted by law?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 30):
Let the car companies do their job and react to the market or wave goodbye to them. It's not any one Senators job to dictate to them how to run their company.

I totally understand your position of "let the market dictate" and "less governmental regulation," but the rub here is that the reaction of automakers may not be in line with the resources and volatility of fossil fuels. By that, I mean the amount of time it takes to develop alternative fuels and/or technologies may be much longer than it takes for any fuel crisis (such as 1973) to hit us. What's inherently wrong with legislation to reduce use of fossil fuels and to promote alternative fuels? I know that you drive a great deal for work and that fuel prices are more important to you than some other people, but we have to think of averages here. I'm actually quite disappointed that the tax incentives for alternative technology were removed by the Republicans to placate the oil companies.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 2):
And hats off to you, Pope, for acknowledging a relatively small, but still meaningful, bit of progress by the Democratic Senate.

My hat off too, since I thought this was just going to be another thread taking a cheap shot at Democrats.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 11):
I would KILL anyone who suggests using batteries. These are poisonous. There are now regulations that don't allow the disposal of normal batteries in the garbage, and I can imagine what will occur in the future with even more batteries being used. And batteries have a nasty habit of lasting very little, including the rechargable kind.

Toyota has a strict program in place that makes sure that most, if not all batteries, are properly returned and recycled. I believe Honda has a similar program in place. As far as low life, there are hybrids on the road with 150,000 miles on them, and not a single battery problem. While I do agree that in the long run, super-capacitors are better than batteries, most of this talk is just "propaganda" from the anti-hybrid crowd.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
Actually, hybrid cars are turning out to be incredibly polluting, mainly because of those batteries. Building a Prius creates more pollution than the building of a Hummer, and when you factor in the fact that the expected road life of a Hummer is 3 or 4 times that of a Prius, it kinda tips the scales.

That "study," from what I have read, was very biased.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 34):
While I do agree that in the long run, super-capacitors are better than batteries, most of this talk is just "propaganda" from the anti-hybrid crowd

No, it isn't

Unless Toyota, Honda and Ford will never sell a Hybrid but only lease them so they get the cars back.

I haven't found a burned out hybrid at Jim Creek yet, but I know that day is coming.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 34):
That "study," from what I have read, was very biased.

I don't know about that study but my brother and sister used to work at the local toy store. Every winter they had a number of Priuses that would show up because the owners where only getting 10-15 MPG. What happens is that the batteries wouldn't take near as large of a charge as they would in summer, and it was cold enough up here that the engine never could warm up enough to run efficently/cleanly.

A hybrid might be nice in California, but not up here.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 33):
What's inherently wrong with legislation to reduce use of fossil fuels and to promote alternative fuels?

Because it's been proven over and over again that forcing these things into the market place results in such things that actually hurts the environment more in the long run. Just a few examples:

Mercury in Fluorescent Bulbs.
Lead/Acid in Hybrid Batteries.
Corn Prices rising because we are BURNING FOOD!!! Seriously, the government is mandating more use of bio-fuels, and that results in burning our FOOD SUPPLY. Corn prices are up. And that rises prices of everything. I have just the other day seen a gallon of milk in middle TN for $5.19. The dairy said on the news the other day that is because the price of corn is going up.

These are just a number of examples of where government mandating things leads to rush judgements.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 33):
I'm actually quite disappointed that the tax incentives for alternative technology were removed by the Republicans to placate the oil companies.

Me too... I think the oil companies are way too smart to not realize their pot of gold is going away someday. And let's hope that's soon. But they are great at what they do, and I'm one to let private industry find the answer! Let them get at least some sort of incentive to help us find a viable option to oil.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 33):
By that, I mean the amount of time it takes to develop alternative fuels and/or technologies may be much longer than it takes for any fuel crisis (such as 1973) to hit us

But looking back, was that 1973 fuel crisis really real? It's 2007, and we haven't ran out of oil, in fact, we're burning it at levels never imagined back in the 70's when we supposed to be running out.


I for one, would love to see oil go away as our primary energy source, however, simply mandating better standards of economy instead of actually putting forth a plan to GET OFF of oil and calling it an "energy bill" is a joke. And I just don't blame the democrats here, the republicans should have been on the "alternative" energy plan for sometime now.. if they would have done their job in the 90's and early 00's in helping companies develop other energy sources we might not be discussing MPG cuts.
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N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):
No, it isn't

Unless Toyota, Honda and Ford will never sell a Hybrid but only lease them so they get the cars back.

I haven't found a burned out hybrid at Jim Creek yet, but I know that day is coming.

Yes it is...

The car's battery will fail just like any other part in a car, there is no low-life. Actually, I am now reading that the $3000 battery replacement cost is all false, or is just dealerships trying to rip people off. Often it is a cell(s) that fail, and can be individually replaced at only $200.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):
A hybrid might be nice in California, but not up here.

Now, I will agree with you there. If one plans to drive in severe cold or, mountainous terrain, a hybrid will not be for them. In addition, people who do much cross-country driving (highway) and little city driving.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 34):
most of this talk is just "propaganda" from the anti-hybrid crowd.

No, it's personal experience. I have yet to have any device with a rechargable battery where the battery has not crapped out after some period of time. This includes cameras, shavers, UPSs, etc. None have lasted longer than 5 years. And the documentation states that the charge that they will hold will go down with time. All they ALL have a warning about proper disposal. So while right now their disposal is no big deal, IF the quantities of batteries used start going up, I can almost guarantee that their disposal will become another issue for environmentalist to use.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:58 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 33):
I mean the amount of time it takes to develop alternative fuels and/or technologies may be much longer than it takes for any fuel crisis (such as 1973) to hit us. What's inherently wrong with legislation to reduce use of fossil fuels and to promote alternative fuels? I know that you drive a great deal for work and that fuel prices are more important to you than some other people, but we have to think of averages here.

Good point and I agree, however the CAFE requirement is a bit harsh. As Cfalk noted above that will be repealed once the automakers get a chance to have some input.

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 33):
I'm actually quite disappointed that the tax incentives for alternative technology were removed by the Republicans to placate the oil companies.

Same here and the reason I am not to excited about this new bill. That takes the wind out of the sails of the whole movement for cleaner air and less dependance on fossil feuls.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):
I haven't found a burned out hybrid at Jim Creek yet, but I know that day is coming...

....A hybrid might be nice in California, but not up here.

I've seen plenty on the backs of tow trucks already down here in sunny California. Our taxis here in San Francisco are sticking with the Ford Crown Victoria as the Escape hybrids were unreliable. The irony is that these hybrids are towed by a Ford diesel powered tow truck. Wouldn't it make sense to make more diesel burning cars available here in the USA? That would take care of the CAFE overnight.
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GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
Wouldn't it make sense to make more diesel burning cars available here in the USA? That would take care of the CAFE overnight.

That's the BEST statement I've read in this entire thread.... especially now that the low sulfur stuff is being used.
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Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:17 am

GuitrThree:
I've been saying that in these boards for years and few agree and others point out to the market place failures here in the US.
All attempts to market diesel cars here in the US have been half-ass at best.
As VW and Jeep now offers a low sulfur burning diesel here in the US, our dip$h!t actor governor (Arnold) banned new diesel cars from being sold here in California as he parades around in his fleet of Hummers. We are the nations large car market so that had to have made a huge dent in diesel sales in the US.
Bring back the Concorde
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
Wouldn't it make sense to make more diesel burning cars available here in the USA?

I think the issue then becomes the $$$$$ required to make the infrastructure changes to dispense more diesel. But overall, IMHO, that would be the cheapest and easiest alternative to use. And aren't diesel engines more durable in the first place?

This is one of the reasons I don't trust government intervention in these things, because they way I see it, the easiest solutions are not the ones that are usually implemented. Solutions that will create additional harm (read about MTBE) seem to be the result.
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 38):
No, it's personal experience. I have yet to have any device with a rechargable battery where the battery has not crapped out after some period of time. This includes cameras, shavers, UPSs, etc. None have lasted longer than 5 years. And the documentation states that the charge that they will hold will go down with time. All they ALL have a warning about proper disposal. So while right now their disposal is no big deal, IF the quantities of batteries used start going up, I can almost guarantee that their disposal will become another issue for environmentalist to use.

Remember, often these devices you provided are charged, then used once in a while...not good for the battery. A hybrid car's batteries are constantly being charged, and then discharged. Honda specifically states in the Civic Hybrid manual that one should drive the car at least 30 minutes every 30 days, to keep the battery "conditioned."

As for batteries losing their capacity over time, that is true. But as stated, I wouldn't expect a hybrid car to outperform an ordinary car...the battery will fail just as a major part in a regular automobile will fail.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
Wouldn't it make sense to make more diesel burning cars available here in the USA? That would take care of the CAFE overnight.



Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 40):
That's the BEST statement I've read in this entire thread.... especially now that the low sulfur stuff is being used.

I strongly agree. The only problem is, that I am either stuck with an expensive car, a large pick-up that I don't need, a Jeep (don't need), or a piece of shit VW. Thankfully, Honda is going to be putting a diesel Accord on the market soon, and I hope that the auto companies can follow. The problem to overcome: the USA's perception of diesels.

Likewise, Bio-Diesel is a much better alternative to ethanol...I feel that E-85 is just one big scam, whereas Bio-diesel, despite some setbacks due to a new technology, is the best way to go.

By the way, forget hydrogen this and that....H2 is an even bigger scam...guess where it is most likely to come from? Gas, often from the same companies that drill oil. And people thought H2 was going to get them away from Big Oil  sarcastic 
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 43):
the battery will fail just as a major part in a regular automobile will fail

True, but the disposal of thousands of batteries could become an issue.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 43):
Likewise, Bio-Diesel is a much better alternative to ethanol...I feel that E-85 is just one big scam

Agree. Ethanol derived from corn is especially horrible.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 43):
Bio-diesel

Bio-diesel can be made from plenty of waste products, hence it would be better all around.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 43):
H2 is an even bigger scam

The energy required to produce the hydrogen basically neglects any benefits that hydrogen power produces. This is sometimes not taken into account, the energy required to produce a certain fuel.

Of course, most of this neglects any future advances that may be made in this field.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 43):
The only problem is, that I am either stuck with an expensive car, a large pick-up that I don't need, a Jeep (don't need), or a piece of shit VW.

In the rest of the world, diesel is available every class of automobile. In Europe, you can get the Chrysler 300C and Dodge Magnum with a diesel motor.
Even Ford & GM has diesel sedans available over seas.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 42):
This is one of the reasons I don't trust government intervention in these things, because they way I see it, the easiest solutions are not the ones that are usually implemented.

It's called feel good politics.
My fellow Democrats running the Senate better be careful with which laws they legislate against the auto companies. This could run them overseas entirely or just shut them down altogether. How will they explain that the UAW union voters in Michigan and Ohio?
Bring back the Concorde
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:14 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 45):
It's called feel good politics.

AKA 'basic stupidity'
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 44):
True, but the disposal of thousands of batteries could become an issue.

I see your point. As stated earlier, I think that super-capacitors are some of the biggest keys to hybrid cars in the near future. Batteries are heavy and their ability to charge/discharge sucks compared to super-capacitors.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 45):
In the rest of the world, diesel is available every class of automobile. In Europe, you can get the Chrysler 300C and Dodge Magnum with a diesel motor. Even Ford & GM has diesel sedans available over seas.

I just wish that they could introduce these cars over to the US.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 29):
The things is, unfortunately they are (not by their own initiative, mind you, but because of the pressure of a small bunch of motivated individuals).

Partially agree. In some cases, of course, but also driven by competition and public perception of their companies. For example, the Shell and BP example I stated.



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 29):
The examples you gave were not environment-related but economically-related

Economics is all about the most efficient use of resources. Wastefulness is not economics.

Much easier to relate economics to money, which is often the case - prioritize profits. But remember, the efficient use of money is also the efficient use of the necessary natural resources that were already used up to create that money to begin with.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 29):
airlines are way more sensitive to fuel consumption than individuals as it is such a huge portion of their costs

Very true. Much bigger pressure on your average citizen to make a conscious choice. If people are truly conscious about taking that step, someone will provide them with a choice. Especially in our global economy with so many companies striving for your business.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 29):
The evolutions in engine technology that were indeed directly related to the environment (lower noise, lean burn combustors for reduced emissions, etc.) were essentially regulator-driven.

Lower Noisy were driven by NIMBYs, so it's really more of a local regulation. That's ok.

Lean burn combustors, I don't know what else can be done aside form improving fuel consumption. That's a given in the airline industry, but understandably less so in the automobile industry.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 29):

I am doing my part to help the environment, but could certainly do more. The "" in "Free Market" are there because free in some ways imply that all parties are in an equal standing in terms of the way they can make themselves heard, which very rarely happens.

You and me decide the products companies design. Not them. Companies do hear us, they would be crazy not to. True they tend to be a little conservative - they have to be careful of they could be out of business - which in the end you could look at it as something that increases people's job security, thus making them more comfortable about spending that extra money for an environmentally-friendly vehicle.

See, I don't believe anyone can just go out and start imposing standards for everyone. Aside for being ethically dubious, push these legislations just far enough and your leaders in government will start getting voted out of office one by one* because of various products, taxed to no end, will start cutting deep into people's budget (especially things such as gas) and even employment rates (cars are more expensive, less people will afford and/or will spend on other areas of the economy - say, tourism).

*Something like the left-right political spectrum pendulum people talk about - when left-leaning politicians go too far, the right-leaning ones get voted in. And so back and forth.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Good Job Senate Democrats

Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
taxis here in San Francisco are sticking with the Ford Crown Victoria as the Escape hybrids were unreliable.

Which is one of the reasons I won't buy one yet. It doesn't meet the KISS rule (Keep It Simple Stupid). Compared to what you could get even 10 years ago with a Geo Metro, there isn't enough gain to justify the additional maintainance.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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