Falcon84
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Watched United 93 For The First Time

Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:07 pm

And it was one of the most riveting films I've ever witnessed. It didn't act, sound or feel like anything scripted. It felt like 9/11 all over again, but from a different perspective.

It brought me back to that horrible day, filled me, again, with nothinig but contempt for those who did such a cowardly act, in the name of God, made me almost snicker at the lack of inter-agency communication that took place that day, and made me again believe that all those people that day will not have died in vain-except for the scum terrorists, that is.

I know a lot of you watched it quite a while ago, but it was too raw for me to watch when it came out. I'm glad I watched it now. It was a tremendous film, in my humble opinion.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Halcyon
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:14 pm

The whole movie made me angry all over again, and the very end is still burned in my mind.

I agree with you 100%.
 
ShannoninAMA
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):


I know a lot of you watched it quite a while ago, but it was too raw for me to watch when it came out. I'm glad I watched it now. It was a tremendous film, in my humble opinion.

Couldn't agree more. It took me a while to convince myself to go see it, but it was well worth it. It provided a great perspective of how it happened from the (brave and courageous) passengers point of view. Very emotional, and an overall great movie.


Shannon  half 
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davestanKSAN
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:18 pm

I saw it pretty recently as well, when it debut on HBO. Agree with everything you said Falcon, and Lucas.....

RIP to all the victims, never forget

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
QFA380
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:30 pm

I've seen it, even being an aussie and only 8 years old on 911 I still cried at the end when the list of names were shown.

I suggest you see Flight 93 aswell. I've seen them both and they offer very different perspectives of the same tragic event.

Here is a link I just found, pretty good, about a memorial they're building. http://www.honorflight93.org/
 
BA787
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:11 pm

I found the film very touching as well.

I was the same age as QFA380 and I remember my Mum and neighbours all in tears. The images still give me goosepimples to this day, that film just made me shiver. Enjoyment is the wrong word to describe the film, but it was very good.

Cheers BA787
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:26 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
And it was one of the most riveting films I've ever witnessed.

 checkmark  Evreryone should see it to (hopefully) realize what sort of enemy we are facing.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 3):
I saw it pretty recently as well, when it debut on HBO

Too bad you didn't see it in a movie theater. The experience is 100% more intense, imho.



 
airtran737
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:29 pm

United 93 left me filled with rage. I guess over time we have all healed since 9/11, but UA 93 opened those wounds right back up.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:50 pm

The ATC scenes were particularly riveting. It wasn't too difficult to imagine what had gone on in the cabin, so those scenes were very fly on the wall for me. But looking at the sheer chaos in the ATC and military command centers, as well as the total lack of preparation and shock, made me realize I had never put myself in those people's shoes before.

We all heard the stories of heroism from the streets of Manhattan for months, but this movie was a moving chronicle of the strings of sanity that those tasked with keeping our skies safe were able to maintain in the most gut-wrenching situation of their careers.

I saw it in the theatre during the first week of its original release in Japan and I had expected to be the only tearful person in the audience, but there were numerous people weeping. I think the most poignant moment was when the Newark tower controllers watched with utter horror as UA 175 streaked across the harbor toward its target. I absolutely lost it at that point.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
DeltaAVL
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:59 pm

I loved United 93. What a unique and emotional film. It still remains my favorite movie, although it's the most depressing thing I've ever watched.

I saw it in the theater. When the plane crashed and the screen went black for a few moments, there were various sobs all around the room. Everyone was crying.

Glad you got to experience the film; it's quite a masterpiece.

[Edited 2007-06-24 15:21:47]
"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
 
NWA742
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:14 pm

I'm glad you watched it, Falcon. I agree with your review 100%.

I saw it soon after it came out on DVD - definitely one of the most powerful movies that I've ever seen. When I showed it to my father - he was in tears at the end - I have never, ever, seen him that way over a movie - and I've watched all sorts of movies with him - he's the last person that you would ever imagine crying over a movie - but this one did it.

Greengrass did an amazing job - he made it the exact opposite of what you would expect from a Hollywood real-life disaster movie. It was detailed, realistic, no hollywood simplifications, no nonsense side-stories. It sends chills through your bones, it re-ignites anger, it puts you in that 757.

After watching it, I believe every American that saw 9/11 should see this film. It will bring you back, and Americans these days need to go back. Many of my friends were hesitant, saying that they don't want to get depressed, or that Hollywood shouldn't be making it - but after convincing some to watch, they all thanked me, and now share my attitude.




-NWA742
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pilotdude09
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:56 pm

Only 2 movies ive cried in Titanic (LOL) and United 93

I think out of everything the hardest thing to watch was the extra features on the DVD when the Actors spend time with the families and they all cry, so sad but then they were some of many heroes on that day.

The way i look at it is that hundreds more would have died if they hadnt got back at those mongrels and i think its good to know that they tried to make those 'things' suffer. thats my opinion anyway.
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Aaron747
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:06 am

Was just browsing some comments on IMDB and elsewhere and it's incredible how absurd some people's comments were. There are various criticisms of Greengrass's approach, not the least of which include his handling of the prayer in the opening scene, showing Jarrah's call to his wife at the gate, and their reluctance to choose a moment to attack on board. Apparently there are some morons out there who feel it was severe error in judgment to 'humanize' the hijackers.

I couldn't disagree more. It's absolutely imperative for everyone to be reminded of the fact that regardless of what we refer to them as in the pejorative out of anger, these perpetrators are indeed human, and are driven by conviction, emotion, and willpower that have been carefully augmented into a very clear sense of purpose. What's worse is those very traits operate on a scale that is far beyond the kind of thinking our common value systems allow for. To defeat the enemy, we must always understand exactly who they are.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
FlyKev
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:18 am

I saw this film at the cinema and it was most defiantly a moving film. As I looked around, people were in the same sort of situations as described above.
This is a powerful movie, and I feel a fitting tribute to the passengers on board the plane.

kev.
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charlienorth
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:19 am

Still can't see it,I knew one of the passengers in High School,vaguely knew the Captain and one of the Flight Attendants.Just seeing the trailers was tough. As far as the inter-agency communication goes I don't know how it is around the country in general,but in my suburb the police and f.d. still can't communicate with each other.
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RobTrent
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:24 am

I saw the film recently on dvd - I am glad I did as i found myself remnembering that tragic day all over again and was emotional - not something you want to be seen in a cenema as a 44 y/o male !
I think the film is a very good recreation of events and it does serve as a testament to the brave crew I feel.

I see what you are saying Aaron747 however, I also disagree with you as it is difficult for me to reconcile inhuman acts and an attribution of Humanity.
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GDB
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:50 am

An outstanding cinematic achievement, all the more so since it was about recent events many still find traumatic.

Though, even with access to those on the end the those phone messages, access to as much background info as possible, there had to be some conjecture of the events on board the aircraft to a certain degree, they have the touch of reality due to the great care taken to present what was definite, with surviving eye-witnesses, for the rest of the film.
Use of non professionals, many in roles replicating what they did that day, was in fact a bonus, as was the absence of well known actors.

Greengrass, at first sight an odd choice, was in fact a very shrewd person to have directing.
He cut his teeth on feature length drama docs in the UK, usually about well known and controversial events.
Such as the events of 'Bloody Sunday' in Northern Ireland in 1972, there his film offered no palliatives, or excuses, to what went wrong that day, but it did humanise everyone involved, both realistically re-created the chaos of events, but with a firm grip of narrative, all the better to illuminate what was being depicted.

Greengrass brilliantly did this again for United 93, the escalating confusion, chaos, gradual realisation of what was unfolding are directed superbly, this part, what was happening on the ground, is so carefully researched, realistically depicted-no Hollywood histrionics for a start, it illuminates the situation, leads to understanding.
(In fact, I'd rate it as the best answer to all the conspiracy nuts).

Of course the terrorists should be humanised, they were humans.
Hesitation many well have occurred from them, when it became clear that the UA93 departure delay could screw up their part of the plot, predicated as it was on all four aircraft impacting within 30-45 minute period, to overwhelm, strike before fighters or any other response could come into play.
They might also have been one man short of what they intended for UA93.

Sept 11th was inevitably going to dramatised by Hollywood, good that the first major piece was such a sober, calm, fact based work, as gripping as anything professional screenwriters could come up with, Greengrass's steady hand made a great film that did not need 'buffing up'.

Also recommended, 'The Hamburg Cell' by Antonia Bird, a 2004 TV film focusing on the recruitment, indoctrination of the terrorists, particularly the one who was to pilot UA93.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
as just browsing some comments on IMDB and elsewhere and it's incredible how absurd some people's comments were. There are various criticisms of Greengrass's approach, not the least of which include his handling of the prayer in the opening scene, showing Jarrah's call to his wife at the gate, and their reluctance to choose a moment to attack on board.

I thought one of the more powerful scenes is when you see one passenger reciting The Lord's Prayer, then it shifts to one of the terrorists praying in Arabic, then back to another passenger reciting The Lord's Prayer, back to a terrorist praying. It was powerful to me because the passengers were praying for mercy, and the terrorists were praying that their acts of murder would be rewarded. To juxtapose those was brilliant, I thought.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
DeltaAVL
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 17):
I thought one of the more powerful scenes is when you see one passenger reciting The Lord's Prayer, then it shifts to one of the terrorists praying in Arabic, then back to another passenger reciting The Lord's Prayer, back to a terrorist praying. It was powerful to me because the passengers were praying for mercy, and the terrorists were praying that their acts of murder would be rewarded. To juxtapose those was brilliant, I thought.

Yes, I thought that was really incredible the way they laid that out. I think it was from that point on that I was crying. And I don't cry much.

I also thought John Powell did a great job with the music. If you pay attention to the music, it keeps getting more and more powerful, and gaining momentum as the drama heats up. I'd recommend buying the soundtrack if you're interested.
"We break, We bend, With hand in hand, When hope is gone, Just hang on." -Guster
 
a380us
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:51 pm

I saw it when it was i theaters and well it just amazed me of heroicy of the fire fighters and police officers.
And i live in NY and will never forget 9/11 but that movie just helped me remember that you must always have faith
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N174UA
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:15 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 7):
United 93 left me filled with rage. I guess over time we have all healed since 9/11, but UA 93 opened those wounds right back up.

 checkmark  I don't think anyone has truly "healed" since 9/11. It's just one of those events that will always be with you.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 10):
Greengrass did an amazing job - he made it the exact opposite of what you would expect from a Hollywood real-life disaster movie. It was detailed, realistic, no hollywood simplifications, no nonsense side-stories.

 checkmark  Despite the awful subject matter, it is the most accurate aviation movie I've ever seen. Only two exceptions: They show an A320 at the gate at one point, as well as during the climbout from EWR.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 10):
I believe every American that saw 9/11 should see this film. It will bring you back

For that very reason, many Americans won't ever see it, by choice. My Dad is one of them, having been an A&P mechanic for UA (not in EWR) and worked many, many hours on 757s.

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 14):
in my suburb the police and f.d. still can't communicate with each other.

For the love of god...WHY?????? That kills me.

A lot of us on the site may wonder what we could have done in that situation, given our various levels of flying and a/c knowledge. Myself included. But...watching the final minutes, and knowing what sort of speed/attitude the aircraft was in at that point, it made me realize there was nothing I could have done to save the flight, nor could anyone else. That flight was doomed as soon as those terrorists took over.

RIP to the 40 who were lost.  Sad
 
Kay
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:06 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):

I fully agree, this movie was made amazingly well, it was rivetting, disturbing, shocking, yet amazingly factual and genuine, staying away from the extavaganzas that Hollywood tends to create in its films. The moment I knew that a low-budget non-Hollywood movie about 9-11 was being shot, I knew it would be the one with the strongest impact, but I never suspected it would have that huge impact on me. A great piece.

Kay
 
cfalk
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:11 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
To defeat the enemy, we must always understand exactly who they are.

To defeat the enemy, we need to know where to aim the miniguns.

I'm not particularly interested in legitimizing their fight by trying to be understanding, compassionate or sympathetic. You kill us, we will kill you back tenfold.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
GDB
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:47 am

Yeah, that really works doesn't Cfalk, remember the 'body counts' in Vietnam?

There were times when this plot could have been stopped, over some years, under two US Administrations.
The attack itself was brought forward by several weeks since the plotters feared they would be busted, perhaps after Mossauri was lifted on immigration charges.
But, against an embedded cell, living amongst us, it's intel and nothing else, military force is useless here.

Good intel prevented an attempt to cause carnage by blowing up the Strasbourg Christmas markets in 2000.
Good intel stopped several serious plots against the UK-but one, the July 7th 2005 one, got through.
This is the reality, there is no perfect defence.
But if you have a handle on likely terrorists, you have a chance.
There was no 'handle' on those who would do Sept 11th, what fragments of suspicion various agencies had, was not put together as a whole.
Even known Al Queda operatives entered to US to support the plot, just months before it happened.

If good intel requires a deep understanding of what might motivate terrorists, however mad, plain evil, we might think them, then it should be pursued.
Sept 11th was an attack against a state that had, by far, the most powerful military in the world, not short of Miniguns. The film as stated, does a very good job of showing the confusion, lack of communications, all through the massive array of military and civil agencies.
This was not incompetence, just that those running it were just unprepared for such an event.

The revelations at the end of film, sourced from the 9/11 report, must be like a punch in the gut for many in the US, no order to shoot-down hijacked aircraft was finally authorised until some time after UA93 had crashed, nearest fighters 100 miles away at that point.
All this from a system originally, in the military part at least, to manage the response/retaliation through a Soviet nuclear attack.

Clearly, from what we know from communications with some crew and pax, they did do something to try to gain control of the aircraft from the terrorists.
The fact that it crashed away from built up areas, suggests they got close to doing this-otherwhise the terrorist pilot fearing losing control, would have aimed at the nearest urban area, he never even got the chance to do that, thankfully.
Incredible courage from them, but the stark fact remains that if UA93 had left on time, it almost certainly would have reached it's target, likely the Capitol Building.

I've not bothered with that other '9/11' film, 'World Trade Centre', it got awful reviews here (unlike UA93), Nicholas Cage starring in it did not help either.
 
NWA742
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting N174UA (Reply 20):
They show an A320 at the gate at one point, as well as during the climbout from EWR.

I think they showed that on the trailer only - but in the movie they just show a 757 take off and continue following it at a side angle until the gear goes up. Not sure though.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 22):
To defeat the enemy, we need to know where to aim the miniguns.

I'm not particularly interested in legitimizing their fight by trying to be understanding, compassionate or sympathetic. You kill us, we will kill you back tenfold.

 checkmark 

I honestly don't give a sh*t about anything that comes out of their mouths - be it about our foreign policy, crimes against humanity, or whatever other reason they give for hating us, and this is for two reasons - A - whatever they say is likely to be complete and utter bullsh*t, and more importantly B - NOTHING justifies, and NOTHING is a valid reason for, the things that happened that day.

The only things we need to know about the enemy regarding "who they are" deal with their potential strategies in combat.




-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
pawsleykat
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:15 am

I watched United 93 in school one day and was really badly affected by it... I have cried at a lot of movies but I felt so helpless for those passengers and it brought me right back to the day it happened when I watched those terrible events happen live... It brought me to tears and the teacher asked me if I wanted the movie switched off, to which I said no. The other one that really affected me was "World Trade Centre" with Nicholas Cage... very sad  Sad

JG
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cfalk
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:24 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 23):
But, against an embedded cell, living amongst us, it's intel and nothing else, military force is useless here.

Intel in the way you are talking is defencive. It is the last barrier before a strike, where with some luck and good intel work at the CIA, NSA andother agencies you MIGHT get a whiff that something is up and arrest someone.

But what if the organization is based in another country - like Iran, for example. You can't go in and arrest them. Their host country denies their existance, of finds some excuse to do nothing, because they want the US harmed. Then what do you do. Intel only gives you an idea (maybe) of who what and where. But unless the targets are already in your backyard, you are powerless - unless you accept military means as an option.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 23):

 checkmark 

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 24):
I honestly don't give a sh*t about anything that comes out of their mouths - be it about our foreign policy, crimes against humanity, or whatever other reason they give for hating us, and this is for two reasons - A - whatever they say is likely to be complete and utter bullsh*t, and more importantly B - NOTHING justifies, and NOTHING is a valid reason for, the things that happened that day.

So attacking WTC and The Pentagon as a response to the U.S. actions you've mentioned (though I know you're in the "they hate our freedoms" crowd) isn't justified, but attacking Iraq and Afghanistan as a response to 9/11 is? Sounds like double-standards and never-ending cyclical violence to me.

I haven't seen the film and I probably won't. Watching it happen live was depressing enough, and I don't think its appropriate for Hollywood to play on people's sentiments and emotions by producing a film based on events (the final moments in the lives of dozens of individuals at that) that no living person witnessed.
 
NWA742
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:06 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 27):
I know you're in the "they hate our freedoms" crowd



Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 27):
attacking WTC and The Pentagon as a response to the U.S. actions

And what crowd are you in - the "let's believe what the terrorists tell us" crowd?  Yeah sure

Get a clue, Gunsontheroof - the only thing able to cure their hate is a bullet to the head - foreign policy has squat to do with it. As long as western culture and civilization exists, they will hate.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 27):
attacking Iraq and Afghanistan as a response to 9/11 is?

First of all - where did I say that? Second, you're comparing the Afganistan strikes to 9/11? Nice. Afganistan was the first and direct response to 9/11 - but did we deliberately target innocent civilians? Did we blow up trade buildings? No. Did we go after the Taliban, terrorists camps, and their supporters? Yes. Attacking over there was goddamn well justified. It appears that your response would be nothing short of apologizing for our foreign policy and begging them not to hurt us anymore. Iraq is an entirely different ball game - I believe removing Saddam and his terrorist dictorship was justified - yet I disagree with the timing, and many many ways that the war itself has been handled.

So please - don't give that kind of nonsense, don't throw words in my mouth, and stick to the topic. PM me if you want to continue this argument.





-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
tz757300
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:14 am

I still have some sort of feeling deep inside me that just won't let me watch this yet. It seriously brings me to the point of just bawling my eyes out just thinking about it. Ugh, I just wish I was never there.
LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 28):
And what crowd are you in - the "let's believe what the terrorists tell us" crowd?

I don't pay much attention to what the terrorists say. I'm more in the "relatively well acquainted with the history of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East crowd."

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 28):

Get a clue, Gunsontheroof - the only thing able to cure their hate is a bullet to the head - foreign policy has squat to do with it. As long as western culture and civilization exists, they will hate.

I suppose that's why they chose the most prominent symbols of U.S. economic and military power as targets for their atrocities and targeted other western countries with comparable "civilizations" that had no history of aggression in Muslim states as targets as well. I agree that there's a deep hostility towards western society in fundamentalist Islamic circles, but with most of their anger and violence directed at the United States and its allies in the "war on terror", I don't see any credibility in the argument that foreign policy has nothing to do with it. Anti-American Islamic movements afterall, came onto the world stage with the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979, which of course was an uprising against an oppressive, U.S.-backed dictator.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 28):
First of all - where did I say that?

Your posts on the subject on many other occassions (and everything you posted following that question) makes your stance abundantly clear.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 28):
Second, you're comparing the Afganistan strikes to 9/11? Nice.

http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1740538.stm

"The number of Afghan civilians killed by US bombs has surpassed the death toll of the 11 September attacks, according to a study by an American academic."

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 28):
Afganistan was the first and direct response to 9/11 - but did we deliberately target innocent civilians? Did we blow up trade buildings? No.

Does it matter to the father whose children I saw melted to the floor of their home (in a film) after an errant U.S. bomb hit it? His loved ones and countless others are dead. I don't see it as being any less tragic just because the dead in Afghanistan are "collateral damage."

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 28):
It appears that your response would be nothing short of apologizing for our foreign policy and begging them not to hurt us anymore.

The best way to combat terrorism is to eliminate its causes. People living in desperate situations (Palestinians under U.S.-backed occupation, Iraqis under U.S.-backed sanctions) are much more likely to be indocrinated into radical doctrines of violence than people living in more stable situations. Ordinary people do fucked up things when fucked up things become ordinary.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 28):
So please - don't give that kind of nonsense, don't throw words in my mouth, and stick to the topic. PM me if you want to continue this argument.

It was perhaps, an invitation to an inappropriate deviation from the topic at hand. I've said all I need to say here, but I'm sure we'll both live to spar another day.

As NWA742 has suggested, any further remarks should be made through PMs.
 
nosedive
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 27):
"they hate our freedoms"



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 28):
"let's believe what the terrorists tell us"

Personally, I think both of you missed the point. Humanizing someone, IMO, is showing the motives and emotion of a person. Getting inside his head, understanding what makes him tick. It's the idea that this person is not a God or a mythical creature. However, the acts of that day were not neither humane nor compassionate, but to a group of people, those events had a "purpose." I want to understand why people like that "purpose," something your just can't sum up in an airliners.net post, and smash that "purpose" at its core.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 22):
I'm not particularly interested in legitimizing their fight by trying to be understanding, compassionate or sympathetic.

I really don't think any of us are interested in that task either, but that's really not the intent of having hijackers be shown as humans. I view the intent as more as wondering: How can one dehumanize someone so damn much? What makes someone get filled with so much anger and hate that they lash out in senseless acts of violence, yet at the same time still look at themselves as human?

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 27):
never-ending cyclical violence to me.

Been that way for thousands of years. Different cultures. Different winners and losers. Why stop now?
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 7):
United 93 left me filled with rage.

'

Why am I not surprised by that? It didn't fill me with rage. Rage is what led those nuts to do what they did, dude, so they win if you feel that way, imho.

I felt a lot of sadness, reliving some of it. But I was so rivited by the film I found the biggest emotion, if you want to call it that, being fascination, of seeing this nightmare unfold from the perspective of the controllers; of the air defense command in the northeast; and the best-guess scenario of what it might have been like aboard that aircraft. It was just riveting.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 28):
Get a clue, Gunsontheroof - the only thing able to cure their hate is a bullet to the head

Actually, that will only cure those who hold that deep hatred. What will REALLY cure this problem, to a large extent, will be lifting up many of these Arab/Islamic people out of poverty and misery. I'm not saying you don't fight when a fight is brought to you-you have to. But settling the Palestinian problem, and trying to make the Arab world part, not apart, from the rest of the world, sure can't hurt.

There will always be fanatics you'll have to fight. But I still believe most people aren't fanatics in anything-they just want the best they can get from life.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
cfalk
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:16 pm

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 31):
How can one dehumanize someone so damn much? What makes someone get filled with so much anger and hate that they lash out in senseless acts of violence, yet at the same time still look at themselves as human?

Just look around at the vehomence we see in our own politics. The hateful stuff that is said - particularly from the loony fringes. People can work themselves into a frenzy over a variety of reasons, from the War to treatment of animals and fur coats.

But most people here, even the loons, stop themselves before commiting an act of violence, because we have a judeo-christian culture which teaches that resorting to violence is wrong, and that justice is to be had following certain rules. (to be fair, a great majority of world cultures feel the same way, not just judeo-christianity.) But if you come from a culture whose holy scripture actually condones violence if you can find the excuse that it is for God, then all bets are off.

As much as people hate to admit (and I wouldn't admit it for years until I started reading a lot more about it), Islam is a big, big part of the problem.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
GDB
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:14 am

Cfalk, but the Sept 11th plotters formed up in Hamburg, Germany, the leading members studying like so many 1000's of others from the region, taking care not to commit any crimes there or draw attention to themselves generally.
Some came indoctrinated, others, including the 'pilot' of UA93, were indoctrinated in situ.
(He was almost dropped, the leader, Atta, felt he was not committed enough, he had after all married a secular Turkish Muslim girl, perhaps that hesitation from him shown in the film?)

They did their pilot training in the USA, over an extended period.
Most came from Saudi, so the logic would be to have invaded that state in retaliation.
The same Saudi that has promoted extreme Whabbism for a long time, well outside it's own borders too.
(Was that a hoped for secondary intention? To provoke a US fracture with Saudi?)

None came from Iraq, or Iran, both states had zero to do with the plot or with Bin Laden, why the US Vice President, has chosen to repeat what he must know are falsehoods in this respect, is unclear.
(Then again, why believe anything 'Bunker Cheney' says?)

Why did OBL approve and fund the 'Planes Operation'?
His failure. That is, after years of trying to promote extreme Islamist uprisings throughout the Arab/Muslim world, he found by 1997, they had all been abject failures.

His deputy and 'Spiritual Advisor' the Egyptian Al-Zawari, a massive influence on OBL, had the answer, from what he saw as his personal experience.
Since he had been one of the leading lights in the assassination of Sadat in 1981, the intention was that this event would cause an uprising by the masses, to over-throw the Western backed, increasingly secular but very oppressive and corrupt regime.
Didn't happen, not a trace.

He concluded that Western influence had so corrupted the Muslim masses, they could no longer think clearly.
This was repeated, in his mind, through the 1990's, in Algeria, in Egypt again, Yemen and others, all total failures.
The nadir was in Algeria, where the remaining tiny rump of Islamists, after an indescribably bloody and indiscriminate terror campaign and severe repression from the military government, declared that ALL Algerian society, save for this tiny group led by a goat farmer, were so corrupted by not supporting them, they should ALL be killed.

For Al-Zawari, it was deja vu, the only way to reduce Western 'corruption' of Muslim minds, would be to strike heavily at the source, primarily but not exclusively, the US.
All those consumer goods, the banks, all that entertainment pumped out by the US, had to be struck at.
This was the main rationale behind Bin Laden's declaration in 1997, in public, to reporters, that he would focus on the 'far enemy'. Not try to overthrow the 'Near Enemy' until this influence was reduced .
It started the next year at US Embassies in Africa, we all know the rest.

They do 'hate our freedoms', but not in the self aggrandising way this is usually put.
 
nosedive
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 33):
loony fringes. People can work themselves into a frenzy over a variety of reasons, from the War to treatment of animals and fur coats.

Yep, b/c all the loonies are on the left  sarcastic 

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 33):
But if you come from a culture whose holy scripture actually condones violence if you can find the excuse that it is for God, then all bets are off.

Ever read the Book of Numbers?

Interesting summary, GDB. It looks like the outfit really doesn't care so much about Islam as it does power. Islam is just the excuse they use.
 
KaiGywer
Crew
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:35 am

Speaking of 9/11...

I'm a foreigner, and I still love this song. Shows me why I am here



[Edited 2007-06-27 03:42:40]
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 33):
As much as people hate to admit (and I wouldn't admit it for years until I started reading a lot more about it), Islam is a big, big part of the problem.

Wrong. The perversion of Islam is a big part of the problem, not Islam itself. Just as the Nazis, and the KKK, and even the modern fundamentalist Christian movement in this nation has twisted the Holy Bible to promote and try to legitimize their hatreds of others, so can Islam be done for the same thing, and often is.

Again, religion isn't the culprit, the perversion of it is. Trying to argue with someone who uses the Name of The Almighty to spread hatred and death is next to impossible.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Watched United 93 For The First Time

Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:02 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
What will REALLY cure this problem, to a large extent, will be lifting up many of these Arab/Islamic people out of poverty and misery.

Did really work with the Saudis, didn't it?  scratchchin 

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