AC773
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"Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:09 am

READ BEFORE POSTING: This is a discussion about the movie "Sicko", and not about the man behind it (Michael Moore). If you'd like to, you're more than welcome to start your own thread.

So, the eve of its unveiling is nearly upon us..."Sicko" comes out in the US this Friday! Are you going to see it or avoid it? What are your thoughts about the film itself?

The trailer for those who haven't seen it:

Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
MDorBust
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:11 am

Why?

It's already public knowledge that there are faked and staged scenes.

Like the other films, Sicko is not a documentary. It's a hit piece designed to provide only Mr. Moores opinion in the best light.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
AC773
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
It's already public knowledge that there are faked and staged scenes.

Source?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
Like the other films, Sicko is not a documentary.

I won't argue with you there - it's an editorial no doubt. I've already seen the movie though, and I don't think that was the objective. To borrow a couple of phrases from a movie reviewer (I couldn't have put it better), it gives the audience a hard look at the fallacies of the privatized system while glamorizing some universal systems abroad - not as a strictly factual comparison, but as a device to effect change by "shaming" us into improving American healthcare. I've seen every Moore film to date, and IMO this is a completely different direction.
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
MDorBust
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting AC773 (Reply 2):
Source?



Quoting AC773 (Reply 2):
I've already seen the movie though...

Good, you've seen the movie. You'll know what I'm talking about. Mr. Moore and cronies load up a trio of boats to head off to Cuba.

Problem is, they flew into Cuba. The scene was faked.

Which you can actually tell by watching Sicko without any outside corroboration. Why would they need to commandeer a boat to get to the silly GITMO scene if they had just used three to get to Cuba?

The GITMO scene BTW is a key example of the typical garbage in US politics these days. People complain that we aren't treating the detainees well enough. When the Govt points out how well the detainees are treated, Mr. Moore has a hissy fit about it. Typical puerile no win garbage.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:09 am

I'd like to see it, but in a way that would not benefit Mr. Moore nor anyone involved with its production.

...not to "hurt" him or anything, I just want to provide no contribution to his cause. Not that he seems to mind, he's come out and encouraged people to download F9/11.
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WellHung
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
It's a hit piece designed to provide only Mr. Moores opinion in the best light.

Well, if his opinion is that people at ground zero on 9/11 trying to save Americans ought to receive at least similar care as the 'enemy combatants' trying to kill Americans, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who disagrees or thinks the story is unworthy of being reported. Unless you're one of those people who look past the substance and can focus only on the messenger.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
Good, you've seen the movie. You'll know what I'm talking about. Mr. Moore and cronies load up a trio of boats to head off to Cuba.

Problem is, they flew into Cuba. The scene was faked.

Which you can actually tell by watching Sicko without any outside corroboration. Why would they need to commandeer a boat to get to the silly GITMO scene if they had just used three to get to Cuba?

The GITMO scene BTW is a key example of the typical garbage in US politics these days. People complain that we aren't treating the detainees well enough. When the Govt points out how well the detainees are treated, Mr. Moore has a hissy fit about it. Typical puerile no win garbage.

So... have you seen it? It sure sounds like you have. Or was this culled from some blog?

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 4):
Not that he seems to mind, he's come out and encouraged people to download F9/11.

He said the same here.
 
MDorBust
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting WellHung (Reply 5):
Well, if his opinion is that people at ground zero on 9/11 trying to save Americans ought to receive at least similar care as the 'enemy combatants' trying to kill Americans, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who disagrees or thinks the story is unworthy of being reported.

I'm not going to disagree that the 9/11 responders deserve the best health care we can give them.

But they aren't going to get it in a secure military installation. No amount of screaming through a bullhorn will change that.

The fact that I think the 9/11 responders should get the best health care still doesn't make a comparison to the treatment of POWs valid in any manner.

Quoting WellHung (Reply 5):
So... have you seen it? It sure sounds like you have.

Yes I have.

If I were to comment on the movie without having seen it I would be somewhat of a hypocrite wouldn't I?

Yes, yes. I already know your next retort. "why are you answering if you would see it if you have already seen it?"

I didn't see it of my own volition and would not given the choice.

Quoting WellHung (Reply 5):
He said the same here.

Yup, he did originally encourage the downloading of Sicko... but that has been reversed now and the film is no longer available for download.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:47 am

Can wait to see it!



Anyone else catch the great film maker on Leno last night?

I particularly liked this line ---> Money should never enter the equation
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
AeroWesty
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:15 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 6):
I didn't see it of my own volition and would not given the choice.

Why does that bring up images in my mind a la A Clockwork Orange?  laughing 
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Queso
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
avoid it

Like the plague.
 
MDorBust
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
Why does that bring up images in my mind a la A Clockwork Orange?

That would explain my penchant for Beethoven.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
fumanchewd
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:55 am

I think that Moore raises some interesting points but his sensationalism and sketchy methods always disgust me. I will not pay money for a ticket but will catch it on HBO the next time I'm in the hospital.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
deltagator
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:02 am

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
This is a discussion about the movie "Sicko", and not about the man behind it (Michael Moore).

So you're asking for a thread of nothing but yes or no answers? That's brilliant!  sarcastic 

And no, I will not be paying to see the movie.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
N1120A
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:06 am

I plan on seeing it. Then again, I also plan on seeing the new Die Hard, Waitress and one or both of the movies about Paris that are out. I have divergent tastes.
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WellHung
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:20 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 14):
So you're asking for a thread of nothing but yes or no answers? That's brilliant! sarcastic

LOL

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
This is a discussion about the movie "Sicko"

It's pretty clear that this is "a discussion about the movie "Sicko".

Don't see anything limiting it to yes/no answers. Just to the movie itself.
 
WellHung
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:24 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 15):
one or both of the movies about Paris

 confused   confused   confused   confused 



 
lowrider
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:30 am

Nope, I have more productive things to do with my time. It will probably say something along the lines of Mr. Moore doesn't like the health care system we have. If he thinks this is the most productive thing he can do to change it, fine. Like his other movies, it should not be mistaken for fact, though.
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deltagator
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting WellHung (Reply 16):
It's pretty clear that this is "a discussion about the movie "Sicko".

Don't see anything limiting it to yes/no answers. Just to the movie itself.

The title of his thread is "Who's Going to See It?" and then he caveats it with a request not to talk about Michael Moore. Sounds like yes or no answers to me unless the OP wrote a misleading title. Plus I would also contend you can't talk about the movie without having points, pro or con, about Moore come into the equation. See it however you want to see it. Goodness knows you'll just overcompensate with one of your silly little pictures of a baby crying or something.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
WellHung
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 19):
The title of his thread is "Who's Going to See It?" and then he caveats it with a request not to talk about Michael Moore.

Yet he explicitly states:

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
This is a discussion about the movie "Sicko",

It is quite clear. There is no room for interpretation. Again:

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
This is a discussion about the movie "Sicko",

Is that difficult to comprehend?

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 19):
See it however you want to see it.

I'll see it how it is written, which is:

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
This is a discussion about the movie "Sicko",



Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 19):
you'll just overcompensate with one of your silly little pictures of a baby crying or something.

 
levent
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:26 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
The GITMO scene BTW is a key example of the typical garbage in US politics these days. People complain that we aren't treating the detainees well enough. When the Govt points out how well the detainees are treated, Mr. Moore has a hissy fit about it. Typical puerile no win garbage.

That's not the point at all. The point of showing this is that millions of US-citizens don't have access to good health care because they can't afford it, and yet the detainees in Guantanamo get top-notch medical care. Moore tried to get access to these facilities with the group of sick people he had with him and was denied, then he went to Havana where they got excellent medical treatment from the doctors in a hospital - Cuba is known to have one of the best healthcare systems in the world. It was also to show that the US government's fear of socialism and socialist healthcare has contributed to the currrent situation in the United States, compared to the systems in countries like Canada, the UK and France.

I know that Moore is biased and has done everything to show the worst side of US healthcare but I personally think that it was a brilliant documentary which has some excellent points. Yes, I have it on DVD.

[Edited 2007-06-28 05:32:45]
 
AC773
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:33 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 19):
The title of his thread is "Who's Going to See It?" and then he caveats it with a request not to talk about Michael Moore.

If you started a thread about the latest (heck, any) Michael Moore movie, wouldn't you expect the usual crowd to come in and say how much they like / loathe / "he has some points" / "he's a total loon" / whatever Mr. Moore? This is a thread about the film itself, and I'm more than happy to have MDorBust, Queso, et al voice their grievances about it - but at the same time - the disclaimer was just a little hijacking insurance.  Smile

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
You'll know what I'm talking about. Mr. Moore and cronies load up a trio of boats to head off to Cuba.

Yes, obviously they flew....what bearing does that have on the rest of the film? Any director worth their salt would have done the same; it's a device to simplify the timeline while maintaining some level of continuity.
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
deltagator
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 1:49 pm

Quoting WellHung (Reply 20):

As expected. Glad you're consistent as a one trick pony.

Quoting AC773 (Reply 22):
the disclaimer was just a little hijacking insurance.

And when was the last time that worked with the folks here on A.net? My point is that you can't divorce the film from the film maker in the case of a documentary, especially in this case. Otherwise you end up getting one word answers of yes or no which is lame. Any other discourse on the movie sucking or being great can only lead down the flamewar path between left and right.

Quoting AC773 (Reply 22):
Yes, obviously they flew....what bearing does that have on the rest of the film?

It shows Moore to mislead the viewer into thinking they struggled mightily against the Florida Straights to get to Gitmo when in fact they flew to Cuba quite easily.

Quoting AC773 (Reply 22):
Any director worth their salt would have done the same; it's a device to simplify the timeline while maintaining some level of continuity.

Simplify the timeline? Maintain continuity? Just get on a plane and fly to Cuba or better yet don't even bother showing the transportation involved since it isn't germaine to the documentary's purpose.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
AC773
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:10 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 23):
And when was the last time that worked with the folks here on A.net? My point is that you can't divorce the film from the film maker in the case of a documentary, especially in this case. Otherwise you end up getting one word answers of yes or no which is lame.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to be working now...

Have we seen more than just "yes or no" answers? Absolutely.
Have we seen personal comments about Moore? I haven't.
Are people (mostly) discussing the film and its issues? Yes.

Ironically, this discussion about my disclaimer is hijacking the thread. I've made my points, so I'll let you have the last word if you like.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 23):
It shows Moore to mislead the viewer into thinking they struggled mightily against the Florida Straights to get to Gitmo

There were many comedic and tongue-in-cheek moments in the film; I interpreted this as one of them and moved on. The waters between Miami and Guantanamo Bay are not known as being difficult to cross.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 23):
Just get on a plane and fly to Cuba or better yet don't even bother showing the transportation involved since it isn't germaine to the documentary's purpose.

If showing the trip to Cuba isn't pertinent, then why should anyone care if the details of such a trip are substituted?
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
aa757first
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:17 pm

I haven't seen it yet. I rarely go to the movie theater, so I'll probably watch it on DVD when it comes out. I seriously doubt that it will change my mind on America's health care system, but I'll watch it anyway.
 
NoUFO
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
People complain that we aren't treating the detainees well enough. When the Govt points out how well the detainees are treated, Mr. Moore has a hissy fit about it. Typical puerile no win garbage.

He's not throwing a hissy fit because prisoners have health care but because some Americans don't enjoy the same care. That's fundamentally different.
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MDorBust
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:42 pm

Quoting Levent (Reply 21):
Moore tried to get access to these facilities with the group of sick people he had with him and was denied,..

Of course he was denied.

That's why the scene is so ridiculous.

Seriously, does anyone here actually think a secure military installation is going to grant the wishes of a nut job yelling at them from a boat? Don't bother thinking about it. I can guarantee you that Cpl. Youngmarine didn't waste one second pondering if they should let him into GITMO. It's a pretty safe bet though that there were a few rifles aimed his way.

What you don't see Mr. Moore do is drive his charges to Baylor Medical Center here in Dallas... where I happen to know for a fact that they have a no denial policy and would have treated these people. I guess that just doesn't make for good cinema though...

Quoting Levent (Reply 21):
Cuba is known to have one of the best healthcare systems in the world

According to the W.H.O, Cuba is behind the US.

Don't even bother to look it up. Just watch the preview in the OP. Pause at 1:17 when the list of countries scrolls by

37: United States
38: Slovenia
39: Cuba

So yes, Mr. Moore in his infinite compassion actually took these people to a nation with a worse health care system than the one he found them in.

Quoting AC773 (Reply 22):
Yes, obviously they flew....what bearing does that have on the rest of the film?

You asked me to source staged scenes.

I sourced a blatant one.

Know, knowing Moore is willing to stage scenes for his "documentary" doesn't that make you wonder about the validity of everything else? Wouldn't it make you wonder if the level of health care these people received in Cuba is the norm, or if the Cuban government seized on an opportunity to jab a stick in the eye of the American government and wheeled out it's top performance?

Personally, I'm betting on the El Presidente treatment.

Quoting AC773 (Reply 22):
Any director worth their salt would have done the same; it's a device to simplify the timeline while maintaining some level of continuity

He could have just filmed them getting on the charter plane and tried to factually represent what happened. Establish at least some credibility.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 26):
He's not throwing a hissy fit because prisoners have health care but because some Americans don't enjoy the same care.

And my whole point is that the treatment of POWs is fundamentally different from the regular civil health care system of a nation. The American government doesn't get to chose it's behavior in regards to POWs. It's dictated by international law. They get that health care because the US agreed with the international community to give it to them.

POWs also get a salary. What's next? Mr. Moore parading homeless people around on a boat outside GITMO to get them paychecks?

It's a baseless comparison that only works on people that fall for cheap theatrics.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
NoUFO
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:07 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
And my whole point is that the treatment of POWs is fundamentally different from the regular civil health care system of a nation. The American government doesn't get to chose it's behavior in regards to POWs. It's dictated by international law. They get that health care because the US agreed with the international community to give it to them.

POWs also get a salary. What's next? Mr. Moore parading homeless people around on a boat outside GITMO to get them paychecks?

I'm happy you consider them POWs. Big grin

But I don't wish to start just another discussion on Gitmo. In this particular case all Moore says is that prisoners receive health care and some law abiding Americans don't. The fact not withstanding that you are right when you say that both systems differ, because one of them is dictated, Moore is critical of the lack of health care not of the existing health care provided to prisoners.
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Asturias
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:21 pm

I have seen it and it was quite entertaining. I think the best description of this film was made earlier in this thread, when someone said it was more an editorial than a documentary.

This is very true. It doesn't mean it wasn't entertaining.

Whatever was true in that film, I don't understand why there isn't a universal healthcare system in the US. It actually does work and it isn't socialism. Doctors are very rich and have great self-control. Patients are all taken care of, no matter what.

It really does work. Seems a strange choice not to have one, but hey. That's up to US citizens. I just can't help but wonder why.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
deltagator
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:53 pm

Quoting AC773 (Reply 24):
If showing the trip to Cuba isn't pertinent, then why should anyone care if the details of such a trip are substituted?

Because it is an attempt to mislead. Granted, it's not my film but I would have just said that we took these folks to Cuba in search of medical treatment. Showing the boat scene is meant to invoke a response in people to think they had a hard time getting there when in fact they did not.

Bottom line, the film is a propaganda piece so things like this scene will be inserted to sway viewer feelings towards the opinion held by the film maker regardless of their truth or relation to the overall point of the film.

Quoting AC773 (Reply 24):
The waters between Miami and Guantanamo Bay are not known as being difficult to cross.

Have you ever been in them? I have, and they can be quite dangerous very quickly, especially in a small boat or better yet, a makeshift raft built by Cubans trying to escape the country.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
TheCol
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:29 pm

Quoting Levent (Reply 21):
compared to the systems in countries like Canada


If Moore actually gave an objective view on the universal system in Canada, you would be a little more cautious about emulating it.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 29):
It actually does work


To an extent. However, our country is facing serious problems with our healthcare system as well. It is far from the utopia that Michael Moore would want you to believe in.

[Edited 2007-06-28 14:32:03]
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
I happen to know for a fact that they have a no denial policy and would have treated these people.

And they would have no problem sending a bill.


Don't all hospitals have a "no denial policy" as a matter of federal law? Anyone?





Money should never enter the equation

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
Wouldn't it make you wonder if the level of health care these people received in Cuba is the norm, or if the Cuban government seized on an opportunity to jab a stick in the eye of the American government and wheeled out it's top performance?



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
Personally, I'm betting on the El Presidente treatment.

If you watched Moore on Leno the other night you'd know otherwise.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
AC773
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:06 am

To MDorBust & DeltaGator:

At this point, I might type a quick reminder of the goal of the film but actually, I've already done that. Lucky me.

Quoting AC773 (Reply 2):
To borrow a couple of phrases from a movie reviewer (I couldn't have put it better), it gives the audience a hard look at the fallacies of the privatized system while glamorizing some universal systems abroad - not as a strictly factual comparison, but as a device to effect change by "shaming" us into improving American healthcare.
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
Asturias
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 31):
To an extent. However, our country is facing serious problems with our healthcare system as well. It is far from the utopia that Michael Moore would want you to believe in.

I know, but it works. It may not be perfect, but it does deliver what it promises. It is of course nothing like the utopia seen in Sicko, that's for sure.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
Falcon84
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:34 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 1):
Why?

It's already public knowledge that there are faked and staged scenes.



Quoting Queso (Reply 11):
Like the plague.

Fine. Apparently, he's pretty spot-on with his facts in the movie.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/28/sicko.fact.check/index.html

In other words, he did his homework. According to this article, he could have done a little better job, but seems to stick to facts in the movie. Apparently, that bothers some of you.

I may just want to see it now.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AC773
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Since Falcon's bumped the thread anyway, I thought I'd clarify something. I watched the film again today on its official debut, and in the last part where they go to Cuba, here's how the "staged" scene plays out:

-People get on the boat in Miami
-They are shown departing, with Miami close in the background
-For comedic purposes, Moore asks the Coast Guard boat "Which way to Guantanamo Bay?"
-The scene cuts to a text frame
-It reads something like "The Department of Homeland Security prohibits us from showing you how we actually got there" (that's not what it was verbatim, mind you, just my own paraphrased version)
-Presto, the film cuts to Moore and the sick people walking around Cuba
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MaidensGator
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 32):

Don't all hospitals have a "no denial policy" as a matter of federal law? Anyone?

EMTALA requires that emergency rooms stabilize all patients who present in an emergent condition. Doesn't help a lot if you have a chronic illness that requires ongoing treatment....

Quoting TheCol (Reply 31):
If Moore actually gave an objective view on the universal system in Canada, you would be a little more cautious about emulating it

The Canadian system is admirable, but as you say, it has its share of problems....

Quoting Levent (Reply 21):
Cuba is known to have one of the best healthcare systems in the world.

Which I'm sure is one reason Fidel imported Spanish doctors when he needed surgery....

There is no doubt that the American health care system is broken and needs to be fixed. It is possible to get the best treatment in the world here, but you run a good chance of going bankrupt if you don't have the right health insurance. You can place a lot of blame on the Medicare payment system now being emulated by the major insurers such as Blue Cross and Cigna. The DRG's are now used by all the carriers and they all negotiate based on their market power. The result is people being charged a multitude of rates for the same procedures. A single payor system would be an improvement, but if the program were to be run by the government, our health care mess would likely get much, much worse...

Oh.... No I haven't seen the movie and don't plan to....
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.
 
Falcon84
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting AC773 (Reply 36):
Since Falcon's bumped the thread anyway

What does that mean?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Sat Jun 30, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 38):
What does that mean?

To "bump" means to take an older, dying thread and "bump" it toward the top by making a post or reply. Note how there is 1 day + 8 hours between your post and the previous reply. (FWIW, most may consider your reply germain to the discussion, not merely a "bump")





Nonetheless, even though I'm sicko (need an emergency dental procedure), hope to see Sicko this weekend!!!
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
northstardc4m
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting AC773 (Reply 36):
-People get on the boat in Miami
-They are shown departing, with Miami close in the background
-For comedic purposes, Moore asks the Coast Guard boat "Which way to Guantanamo Bay?"
-The scene cuts to a text frame
-It reads something like "The Department of Homeland Security prohibits us from showing you how we actually got there" (that's not what it was verbatim, mind you, just my own paraphrased version)
-Presto, the film cuts to Moore and the sick people walking around Cuba

exactly, he actually went there via Mexico (Cancun specifically i think?) and flew on AeroMexico as i recall, that was all a big thing when he announced he had been to Cuba and that the Department of State was all upset about it, threatening jail time, etc... because he had spent American money in Cuba and violated the embargo...

Anyways, Sicko, like Fahrenheit 911 and Bowling for Columbine before it, are Docutainment, they aren't supposed to be unbiased, Michael Moore makes that very clear every time someone asks him, they are supposed to be entertaining ways of revelaing of the problems he's talking about... in sicko it's the american "capitalist" health care system and it's failings... gee i think he did that nicely.

IMHO it is a good film, and everyone should watch it just to get another point of view.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
StarAC17
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 35):

Fine. Apparently, he's pretty spot-on with his facts in the movie.

He's not objective in his films however he doesn't give false information. I read in TIME that he will pay $50,000 to whoever can disprove any of the facts in any of his movies and he has never had to pay anyone.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
LH423
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 23):
It shows Moore to mislead the viewer into thinking they struggled mightily against the Florida Straights to get to Gitmo when in fact they flew to Cuba quite easily.

No, as someone already said, he makes a little joke of it. Plus, one would have to be really gullible to believe that they were going to Cuba in small, private boats packed with people. Furthermore, when the boat pulls up outside Guantánamo, the boat they are on has a Cuban flag flying and he names the captain of the boat with a conspicuously Spanish name. Could someone really believe they took a few boats to Cuba? Yes. Would that person be extremely gullible and probably not the sharpest tool in the shed? Probably.

That said, I just got back from seeing it. Yes, it glorifies universal health care while demonizing the US system. Is it entirely accurate? Well, my only experience is with the Canadian system and I can tell you those waiting at the hospital in Ontario are extremely lucky to have all waited less than an hour or that's not entirely accurate. The shortest wait time was with the mother of a friend who got seen in a clinic in about 45 minutes. The worst was a friend who waited 9 hours before giving up and going home and going to a different hospital later on that day. Granted, she got seen right away at the second hospital but that's more a result of the lack of action at the first.

Also, the US system isn't the demon spawn of health care. Yes, it definitely has it's faults, but it still works, to an extent. My problem with it is that the US is the most powerful country on earth and I find it unacceptable that people fall through the cracks. I think the stuff that really got me going about this movie was what happened to the insured. People who are paying for insurance but not receiving care.

At the end of the day, my feelings on health care is that it's a right. I don't believe the arguments that we shouldn't have to pay for someone else's heathcare. Mainly because someone else is paying for yours. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Secondly, fine, you don't want government controlled heathcare? OK. But healthcare should NEVER be something that someone else profits off of. If you want private hospitals, private doctors, private healthcare, no problem, but I don't think anyone should make one DIME off my illness.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
ac888yow
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:18 pm

I just saw the film. He mentions the Canadian system as if it's the cat's ass, but he fails to mention things like:

- waiting hours at the hospital to see a doctor
- waiting months to see a specialist
- waiting months/years for MRI, CT scan, etc.
- waiting months/years for major procedures

Rest assured that if he posted a request for Canadian medical horror stories he'd receive at least as many. That said, overall I think our system is preferable to that of the US, I wish Moore was more objective with his reporting.
 
airtran737
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:25 pm

I will not see any of Mr. Moore's movies, they are extremely biased and one sided. It pains me to think that people form their beliefs around the shit that spews from his films.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Mike89406
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:41 pm

First no I wont watch it.

Secondly Universal health Care may not even work in the USA unless they come up with some brilliant idea. Its no secret there are a lot of people without adequate health benefits in our country with 300 million people in the US can you imagine how long it would take to get a CT scan or something?

I know Canada has good points about Universal Health Care, and it works for them but there are long waiting lists for certain appts.

You might in fact die of something here before you cold get treated with the same system in the US.

In short there would have to be something in place that would work for our country. Do I know what the answer is or what would work? Not really. But what works in one country doesn't necessarily yield the same results in another.

[Edited 2007-07-02 07:49:01]
 
L-188
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting AC773 (Reply 36):
Presto, the film cuts to Moore and the sick people walking around Cuba

Clearly violating the emabargo of that communist country and clear threat to the freedom of the western hemisphere.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 40):
... because he had spent American money in Cuba and violated the embargo...

He should have been arrested when he got off the plane....

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 41):
I read in TIME that he will pay $50,000 to whoever can disprove any of the facts in any of his movies and he has never had to pay anyone.

Another lie, he may claim he has it, but he will never pay out no matter how disproved his thoughts are. He is absolutely correct in his own world.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 44):
I will not see any of Mr. Moore's movies, they are extremely biased and one sided. It pains me to think that people form their beliefs around the shit that spews from his films.

I know, I feel dirty now that I have a copy of "Canadian Bacon" but I keep in mind that ignorant aschloss was only hired as a director, it wasn't "his" film.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 45):
Secondly Universal health Care may not even work in the USA

Hell it doesn't work in the two current US goverment run systems we have now, the VA and IHS. Why the hell would we want to go national with it?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:04 pm

Its amazing that most posters here claiming Moore's work consists of "lies" support a war mongering administration full of criminals built on lies.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
max999
Posts: 946
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:05 am

RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:08 am

No need to go to the theaters to see it...the movie is online legally at this website.

http://insanefilms.com/?p=413
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
deltagator
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 47):
Its amazing that most posters here claiming Moore's work consists of "lies" support a war mongering administration full of criminals built on lies.

So in your thought process we can't call Moore out for his propaganda techniques without somehow being a shill of the Bush Administration? How pathetic.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
FlyingTexan
Posts: 2998
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2003 8:30 am

RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:22 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 49):
How pathetic.

You missed a key word in that statement.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
deltagator
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RE: "Sicko", Who's Going To See It?

Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 50):
You missed a key word in that statement.

Most? Is that the word you claim I missed? If so that just gives you a convenient little out when challenged. Again, pathetic.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."

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