D L X
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Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:45 am

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070628/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_rdp

Wrongly decided.


Here we have two cities that are concerned that their school systems are being segregated, and so adopt policies to maintain diversity. And the Supreme Court knocks down these policies.

Do you know who should be upset most? Republicans.
 
tsaord
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:53 am

Well. Can we get to a point where race doesnt matter in what schools children go to. Just let things fall where they may?
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:59 am

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 1):
Just let things fall where they may?

"Just letting things fall where they may" at the current time usually results in severely segregated schools. Is that ever a good thing?


BTW: here is a summary of the plans the schools used: http://www.scotusblog.com/movabletyp...hives/2007/06/the_school_plan.html
 
seb146
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:21 am

I don't understand the Kentucky way of integrating schools, but the Seattle way of doing it seems fair. Let the students and parents decide what school to send their kids to and apply. I don't know how the schools in Seattle are but I do know two neighborhoods in the western parts of the city have money and should have better facilities. It would reason that someone from a poor area in the southeast section of the city would want their kids going to a school in the west or north part of the city for a better education. What is the problem with that? Portland used to have schools divided up. Benson was the tech school, Jefferson was the arts school, Lincoln was the sports school and so on. Parents could apply if they thought their child could get into a particular school out of their district. Seems like a good idea to me. But, what do I know. I am just a voter/citizen/tax payer.

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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 1):
Just let things fall where they may?

 checkmark 

Quoting D L X (Reply 2):
Is that ever a good thing?

It is not good nor is it bad. It's not like anyone is forcing segregation on them. If certain groups of people tend to live in one area, then so be it.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 3):
What is the problem with that?

The problem is where are the kids in the western part of the city supposed to go if all the inner city kids are coming to their schools?

The better idea in my opinion is to change the way schools are funded. Schools that score lower should be receiving more aid to try and boost those scores. If not that, then at least provide equal funding across the board. Providing less aid to lower scoring schools doesn't really set them up for anything but failing.
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ltbewr
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:43 am

It is going to be interesting how this will be in real life. One issue in these cases is where black kids had to be bussed to the other side of a city to a mainly 'white' school where often they faced unofficial segeration and hate by fellow white students, in an effort to 'balance' the schools rather than have access in their part of town to a good school. No white kid (or the parents) want to ever go to a 'black' school in a far too often crime infested school or neighborhood where most blacks live due to the generations of discrimination by law and custom. All schoolchildren should have access to the same high quality education no matter what town or part of a town they live in, their race, their income or family situation. Problem is that to deal with those issues requires a lot more money for the schools or change the economic patterns of residential neighborhoods many cities cannot afford. Until that 'affirmative action' takes place, the band aids of desegeration policies over the last 50+ years will continue to be rejected by a conservative US Supreme Court.
 
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 2):
"Just letting things fall where they may" at the current time usually results in severely segregated schools. Is that ever a good thing?

Have you ever thought that perhaps people prefer to be with people of their own kind whether that be white, black, green, purple? The segregation of a city based on where people decide to live and the performance of the schools is two different things and should be handled as such.

One other thing, why is there always this impetus to integrate at the K-12 level of schools but when going off to college there is segregation with no issues, whether it be a historically black college or the self segregation of cultures (black student union, asian student union, race based Greek organizations) at mixed race schools? Why is that ok in the upper levels but we just can't have it at the lower levels because it is considered bad and evil?

Heaven forbid we spend money to make all the schools better regardless of the majority race within it. It has always seemed dumb to me to bus rich kids to the poor schools and vice versa just in the name of racial diversity and an attempt to boost test scores. Just spend the money to increase the scores at the poor school regardless of the race.
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 1:58 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 2):
"Just letting things fall where they may" at the current time usually results in severely segregated schools. Is that ever a good thing?

Yes, it is a good thing if that's how parents want it to be. Pretty much everyone who has kids or is planning to have kids researches the local schools when buying or building a house, and generally most people have some idea of what they're getting into. It is natural for people to self-segregate themselves. What is unnatural and wrong is for it to be forced by government, either through Jim Crow-type forced segregation or forced-busing type forced integration.
 
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 3):
I don't understand the Kentucky way of integrating schools

I have lives across the river from, or in Kentucky most of my life, and NOONE understands why or how they do a lot of things. This is why the federal government sued Kentucky and mandated massive changes.

Knowing Louisville like I do, I cant imagine a scheme that would make anyone happy.
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mdsh00
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
Wrongly decided.


Here we have two cities that are concerned that their school systems are being segregated, and so adopt policies to maintain diversity. And the Supreme Court knocks down these policies.

So you favor reverse racism? If any "affirmative action" should be done, it should be based on socioeconomic class and not race.

I tend to be socially liberal but I agree with the court on this one. The whole idea of busing Black kids far from home, and White kids far from home in the name of diversity and filling some quota is stupid. And that's the problem. Theres no attempt to really integrate, but rather dumping the kids there in order to show some pie charts and say, "Look! Our schools are diverse, give us funding!"

Sometimes letting it fall the way it does is better, or readjusting school boundaries. I don't know about the racial makeup and integration in the KY area but schools in my city tend to have a mix of Whites, Hispanics, and Asians.
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
If certain groups of people tend to live in one area, then so be it.

I can't disagree with you more. That is a sure fire recipe for continued discrimination and ignorance for people of other groups. Integrated schools are the answer to hate.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
Schools that score lower should be receiving more aid to try and boost those scores.

I'm with you there. The problem is, schools are usually funded by property taxes. That means rich neighborhoods have the well funded schools. Poor neighborhoods get equipment when the rich schools are done using them. How's that for equality?

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 5):
All schoolchildren should have access to the same high quality education no matter what town or part of a town they live in, their race, their income or family situation.

 checkmark 
I'd go one step further - balancing the schools helps to ensure that the same quality education is granted to all residents and areas of a jurisdiction. That was the promise of Brown v. Topeka, which is being chipped away.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 6):
Have you ever thought that perhaps people prefer to be with people of their own kind whether that be white, black, green, purple?

Yes, and that thought is unacceptable to me. If you sue the schools because you can't deal with having your white kid be in a class with minorities, the problem clearly isn't with the school, and it is the children that will be harmed. It is that child, segregated from those who do not look like him, that will carry the torch of ignorance into the next generation.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 6):
One other thing, why is there always this impetus to integrate at the K-12 level of schools but when going off to college there is segregation with no issues, whether it be a historically black college or the self segregation of cultures (black student union, asian student union, race based Greek organizations) at mixed race schools?

I don't think that's the case at all! I think there are strong rallies against segregation in higher education. My college and others nearby went well out of their way to make sure that their campuses were not segregated.

However, the minority interest groups are a completely different thing. YOu have to tackle the problem from both sides. One thing that really annoys me about many conservatives is that they say (sometimes disingenously) "let's just all be color blind." Well, that's not reality. While you may honestly not care about color, your peer standing next to you might. Minorities often need a support group to help them deal with the people that aren't color blind -- often because members of the majority that are honestly color blind fail to take their side in dealing with those members of the majority that cause minorities hurt.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 6):
Heaven forbid we spend money to make all the schools better regardless of the majority race within it.

Do you believe that separate can be equal?

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 7):
Yes, it is a good thing if that's how parents want it to be.

So, if parents raise their kids to be openly racist, the government should stand back and say "well, that's how the kid's parents want it to be?"

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 9):
So you favor reverse racism?

That's a nice buzzword, but tell me what exactly do you mean by it? Then I'll answer.
 
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:41 am

I teach in a school that is nearly all black. Most of the time I am the only white person in the classroom. On dozens of occasions I have had parents and students say that black students shouldn't be tought by a white teacher. I have not ever known a black teacher who had white parents and students say a black teacher shouldn't teach white students.

Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
I'm with you there. The problem is, schools are usually funded by property taxes. That means rich neighborhoods have the well funded schools. Poor neighborhoods get equipment when the rich schools are done using them. How's that for equality?

Exaclty. We spend about $7000 per students. Some of the better performing districts spend over $11,000 per student. We just can't compete.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
It is not good nor is it bad. It's not like anyone is forcing segregation on them. If certain groups of people tend to live in one area, then so be it.

A lot of people like to live with people like them, regardless of income. Here in metro detroit there are parts of town where seening a white or black person is kind of rare. Where I live is mostly white, but lower income. There are other parts of town that are white, but higher income. There are neighboorhoods that are black that are very poor and others that are very high income. Same goes with the Arabic peoples around here. Living in a neighborhood that is filled with one type race around here doesn't always mean rich or poor.

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
Schools that score lower should be receiving more aid to try and boost those scores.

There are other issues too. Teachers I know is higher end schools (even those with large minority populations) have differnt issues. Many studnets in higher end schools don't live in neighborhoods plagued with gangs, drugs, crime, and other social ills. Teen pregnancy is a huge problem at my school, but is almost nonexistant at some schools in better neighborhoods. The largest problem we have is actually getting kids to come to school. To many parents school is not important and they don't send their kids to school. This is a huge problem in poorer areas, regardless of race. You can teach stuff all you want but when you have students who don't think they will be alive next year or will be in prison most of their lives they just don't care. If you have a 11th grade student who can't read or write (happens all the time) you can't teach him/her to read and write to grade level in short order.

Urban schools also face large imagrent populations that make it hard for a teacher to teach when the child doesn't speak english. The child might be as smart as a whip, but if they can't read the standardized tests they will fail. Urban schools have a large amount of transiant studnets. They switch schools regularly. If I have a student who is new at my school take an a standardized test to show compentcy at grade level and they bomb it it shows on my school even if they have only been there a week. You have to give the tests at specific times. To have sucessful schools you need students there a long time. It is the only real way to show if a school is really suceeding

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 9):
The whole idea of busing Black kids far from home, and White kids far from home in the name of diversity and filling some quota is stupid. And that's the problem. Theres no attempt to really integrate, but rather dumping the kids there in order to show some pie charts and say, "Look! Our schools are diverse, give us funding!"

I went to a school like that in suburban St. Louis. 20% or so of our population was bussed into our school from black neighborhoods in St. Louis (mostly the northside). By and large there was very little mingling of the races. The black kids from the suburbs hung out with the whites from the suburbs. The problems were more social in nature. Asking lower income students to fit in with upper and upper middle class kids is never going to work. I remember once in a class where a friend was complaining that his parents wanted to take away his Porsche and give him a BMW becuase he had too many tickets was interrupted by a desegragation student who complained about a real problem of not having hot food at home. To very different worlds....
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mdsh00
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
That's a nice buzzword, but tell me what exactly do you mean by it? Then I'll answer.

I don't favor unfair advantages based on race. I know it still plays a factor in admissions in higher education.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 11):
The black kids from the suburbs hung out with the whites from the suburbs. The problems were more social in nature. Asking lower income students to fit in with upper and upper middle class kids is never going to work.

I think this is key, and that is why I would favor socioeconimic classifications. The only problem with this is that Americans are very resistant to ideas of social class and therefore it gets put down to just race. I too have seen white kids, black kids, and asians hang out with each other; but like you said, they all come from similar neighborhoods.
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D L X
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 11):
I have not ever known a black teacher who had white parents and students say a black teacher shouldn't teach white students.

Well, that would be racist.  Smile

The "need" for a black teacher to teach black students is for role models. (Of course, I personally believe that blacks shouldn't only look to other blacks as role models, but that's another thread.) There is no analogous need for whites - white role models grow on trees.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 11):
I went to a school like that in suburban St. Louis. 20% or so of our population was bussed into our school from black neighborhoods in St. Louis (mostly the northside). By and large there was very little mingling of the races.

Sounds like a high school, no?

If it were an elementary school, there would be a lot more mingling. I don't know how someone can think that they can "reprogram" someone at the high school level after they've been programmed to believe a certain thing their whole lives before then.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
Sounds like a high school, no?

It was.

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
There is no analogous need for whites - white role models grow on trees.

That seems to be the case.

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
I personally believe that blacks shouldn't only look to other blacks as role models

That is true. Many of the kids I deal with only see performers (sports and music) to be role models. When a black business man or community leader is discussed many of my students consider him a sellout and not really black.

Back in January a student in class burst out about why doesn't our school celebrate black history month. He went on about how racist the school is (there is hardly anybody but blacks in the school). Several students informed him that Black history month was next month. He was embarrassed as can be.

A lot of my kids see racism where there is none. I was in the assistant Principal's office when a girl was in there for carrying a purse in the school (no bags, purses, hats, etc in classrooms). The AP asked her to put it away in her locker and she refused and started pushing him around. She went on to say that white girls are allowed to carry purses. She called her mom and she came up and yelled that we were all racist because white girls could carry a purse. What makes this dumb is that at that time there was only one white girl in the entire school and she never carried a purse. In a school of 350 we have about 15 white students and about 10 other races. A big complaint from parents and students was that more blacks were being suspended than whites. There were more blacks in detention than whites. Of course that is going to happen when your enrollment is skewed in one direction. In my high school there was more whites in trouble than blacks. It had nothing to do with behavior of either group, it was just probability.

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
If it were an elementary school, there would be a lot more mingling.

I would agree with that. My Elementary school in suburban Denver had mostly white and Hispanic people, there were a few Asians and blacks. Everyone got along just fine and everyone played together nicely. It seems that it takes people a while to decide that they shouldn't get along. This goes back to what I was saying before. If a person goes through the same school system their entire career they likely will have many of the same friends they had the entire time. That is good, it helps blur the color, race, and religion line. Not only that but it creates a sense of community and builds quality schools regardless of location. However at many Detroit schools you have kids who never have gone to school with a white person. In the suburbs you will be hard pressed to find a white kid who never shared a classroom with a black student. Years of hatred for reasons that may or may not make sense causes problems on both sides of the aisle.
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D L X
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 12):
I don't favor unfair advantages based on race.

How is it an unfair advantage based on race when all races are affected equally?

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):
However at many Detroit schools you have kids who never have gone to school with a white person. In the suburbs you will be hard pressed to find a white kid who never shared a classroom with a black student. Years of hatred for reasons that may or may not make sense causes problems on both sides of the aisle.

Yeah... the D's problems go way deeper than anything I think schools can fix. White flight was so vast in Detroit (in part to avoid integration of the schools) that the only way to integrate the schools now would be at the state level. And do we really want to bus kids from Livonia to downtown and vice versa? No. For one, they'd spend 2 hours a day on the road.
 
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
So, if parents raise their kids to be openly racist, the government should stand back and say "well, that's how the kid's parents want it to be?"

I don't favor government thought control, do you?
 
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
The better idea in my opinion is to change the way schools are funded. Schools that score lower should be receiving more aid to try and boost those scores. If not that, then at least provide equal funding across the board. Providing less aid to lower scoring schools doesn't really set them up for anything but failing.

As good and simple as that idea sounds, public schools in many districts in the country already bleed money through poor management. The idea is to motivate these districts to actually take care of their schools and motivates them to actually manage them properly, not that some schools in inner city areas need more money, but there is a lot systems that have low test scores as a result of decades of mismanagment of school resources. And as DLX points out a lot of the money schools have is local property taxes so areas that are poorer tend to have poorer schools.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
And do we really want to bus kids from Livonia to downtown and vice versa? No. For one, they'd spend 2 hours a day on the road.

No school kids need to be bussed that far. Lots of wasted times and energy. One of the biggest complaints I remember from the desegregation students at my high school (where I attended) was the long bus rides.

The Desegregation program in St. Louis was voluntary. So what really happened was the best students and best athletes went to suburban schools. Leaving the City district with few top students. St. Louis's desegregation program is nearly over, but its effects are still being felt in the city schools. Usually the opponents to that city's desegregation program were black. They were mad the best students were leaving their city.

My high school had a 98% plus graduates going to college. That included everyone. High expectations and quality programs will help every kind of students.

The School I teach at: I have had more convicted murderers than kids who have gone to college. For five years we only sent one student to college. Recently that number has increased 7.
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D L X
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 16):
I don't favor government thought control, do you?

That's nice spin, but that's not what I suggested either.

Yes, it is the school system's responsibility to tell kids what is civicly right and what is civicly wrong. That means educating children on the evils of racism, despite a parent's educating the child that racism is correct.

The point was that a single child's parents are not the end-all and be-all of education. In this case, the residents of the City of Seattle chose a policy, and that policy was overturned by people 3000 miles away because a handful of people in Seattle did not like the policy. Why aren't conservatives pissed?
 
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 14):
Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
If it were an elementary school, there would be a lot more mingling.

I would agree with that. My Elementary school in suburban Denver had mostly white and Hispanic people, there were a few Asians and blacks. Everyone got along just fine and everyone played together nicely. It seems that it takes people a while to decide that they shouldn't get along. This goes back to what I was saying before. If a person goes through the same school system their entire career they likely will have many of the same friends they had the entire time. That is good, it helps blur the color, race, and religion line.

Agree. I also went to a high school where there were bused in kids from inner city neighborhoods. By and large, the "diversity" did not pan out in social interactions, as the black, white, and Hispanic kids largely remained in separate social groups. This could be attributed to several factors: race, language, socio-economic background, and of course the practical fact that kids who spent a couple hours a day on the bus together got to know each other, while kids from the local area knew each other from the feeder school and as neighbors.

In general, high school is too late to start forced integration programs. I think that affirmative action is most justifiable at the youngest ages, so the playing field will be more level later in life. To a certain extent, people will probably still separate themselves later, but they will still have better links to other groups.

In the long run, I also believe there is an inherent value in having diverse classrooms, workplaces etc. in many cases, in that more viewpoints are available, more debates can open up, and ultimately there should be more mutual understanding. Of course, that "diversity" should not be limited to race--as it too often is. It should also be about class, religion, etc.
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Integration was not banned. That is spin and you know it. The Supreme Court further restricted the use of race as a factor in placing children in schools, which I fully support. You can't simultaneously purport to want to create a "colorblind society" and simultaneously use color as a factor in deciding where a child goes to school.
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cfalk
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:24 am

As Chief Justice Roberts said, "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=11655

Quoting JetsGo (Reply 4):
The better idea in my opinion is to change the way schools are funded. Schools that score lower should be receiving more aid to try and boost those scores.

I sympathize with what you are trying to do, but that's just silly. Then schools won't even bother to even try to teach their kids at the necessary level to pass. You would be rewarding failure!

The best solution IMHO is to let bad schools fail. Bring in the voucher system, and let all parents choose what school they want to send their kids to. The good schools thrive, the bad ones will go bankrupt, and a new, better school can be built on the ashes of the old ones through the purchase of its fixed assets, unencumbered by imbedded teachers unions and all other pre-existing problems that might have existed.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 12):
I think this is key, and that is why I would favor socioeconimic classifications. The only problem with this is that Americans are very resistant to ideas of social class and therefore it gets put down to just race.

I agree.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 22):
"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."

It's almost too simple Silly
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ltbewr
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 22):
"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."

It's almost too simple

The terrible weakness in his decision is that it took over 16 years to really implement the first US Surpreme Court decision (1954) with further court actions and finally congressional acts as to school funding to really act on primary and secondary school racial segeration. The southern USA States made deliberate choices to not obey the decisions as to school desegeration of the US Supreme Court and the Congress well into the 1970's. As much as I despise race based affirmative action where significantly under or less qualified persons because of their race get an educational or employment opportunity, one cannot ignore race as THE factor that needs to be considered in any plan to 'intergrate' our schools, places of employment and so on.
 
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 24):
one cannot ignore race as THE factor that needs to be considered in any plan to 'intergrate'

Absolutely not, need is the factor, not race. I bet you'd end up with the same result as "integration" simply because those that need improved education the most are the poor, and the poor more often than not are minorities. I can support need based "integration", combined with school choice and accountability, but diversity for the sake of diversity doesn't help children learn.
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deltagator
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:24 am

I was traveling and forgot to respond but just saw the thread was bumped back up.

Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
I think there are strong rallies against segregation in higher education. My college and others nearby went well out of their way to make sure that their campuses were not segregated.

As did my college but the black community didn't care and ignored almost all attempts to make them feel included.

Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 6):
Have you ever thought that perhaps people prefer to be with people of their own kind whether that be white, black, green, purple?

Yes, and that thought is unacceptable to me.

So by your thought process sections of town like Chinatown, Little Italy, Greektown, Boystown, South Central LA, Bel Air and so forth should be disbanded and we should all be living in happy little colorblind cities, towns, and suburbs?

This seperation of folks is brought on by the various people themselves and is not always forced by racism. People can yammer on all they want about "white flight" to the suburbs but what about the traditional sections of towns that are minority focused and have been for generations?

Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
If you sue the schools because you can't deal with having your white kid be in a class with minorities, the problem clearly isn't with the school, and it is the children that will be harmed.

I wouldn't sue a school district because heaven forbid my kid go to school with a black or hispanic kid. I just have a problem with a school district that thinks uprooting kids in the name of diversity is a good thing. If I have worked hard to afford a nice house in a good part of town with good schools in hoping to provide for my children then I have a major problem if the government says I have to send my kids to the underperforming school, regardless of race. I would want then to improve that school versus making my decision for me. Of course if it ever came to this choice my kids would be gone from the public school system faster than a New York minute and into a private school where education is given priority over trying to fix something broken by ignoring its underlying problems.

Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
It is that child, segregated from those who do not look like him, that will carry the torch of ignorance into the next generation.

So let me make sure I'm getting you here...you think the government should mandate where we go to school and possibly even where we live so we can have this big happy nirvana of racial equality? That segregation cuts both ways in case you don't know that.

Quoting D L X (Reply 10):
Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 6):
Heaven forbid we spend money to make all the schools better regardless of the majority race within it.

Do you believe that separate can be equal?

In the definition under the old Jim Crow laws my answer is absolutely not. Those institutions were never equal by any means and that is a black eye on our country. What I'm saying is that if black folks want to live in one part of the city, white folks in another, asians in another, and so forth then I'm fine with that. If the black school is underperforming what exactly does bussing them across town to the white school or the asian school do for them other than waste time?

We should spend money on all schools regardless of the majority race contained within them. Maybe we should also look at cultural things and perhaps even ruffle a few feathers in the process to get people past prejudices and make them think. If the black school gets the same money and equipment as the white school but continues to underperform then maybe we should look at other things beyond bussing. Just a thought and a non-racist or bigoted one at that given that I have grown up around many black kids and live ina neighborhood for the past 6 years that is majority black with a large hispanic population as well and we all get along just fine.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:50 am

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 3):
I don't understand the Kentucky way of integrating schools, but the Seattle way of doing it seems fair. Let the students and parents decide what school to send their kids to and apply. I don't know how the schools in Seattle are but I do know two neighborhoods in the western parts of the city have money and should have better facilities. It would reason that someone from a poor area in the southeast section of the city would want their kids going to a school in the west or north part of the city for a better education. What is the problem with that? Portland used to have schools divided up. Benson was the tech school, Jefferson was the arts school, Lincoln was the sports school and so on. Parents could apply if they thought their child could get into a particular school out of their district. Seems like a good idea to me. But, what do I know. I am just a voter/citizen/tax payer.

I think this was the best way to do things. Set up schools with a focus and let parents send their kids to whichever school suits them best. Then white, black, Asian, Hispanic and Native American kids that want to go into arts can go to the art school, and the ones that want to go into science fields go to the science oriented school, etc. Kids get better, more focused education, a mix of all races (theoretically) is present in the school and schools then compete for funding instead of just getting it handed to them because of where the school is built.
 
D L X
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 26):
As did my college but the black community didn't care and ignored almost all attempts to make them feel included.

How is that relevant to this discussion?

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 26):
So by your thought process sections of town like Chinatown, Little Italy, Greektown, Boystown, South Central LA, Bel Air and so forth should be disbanded and we should all be living in happy little colorblind cities, towns, and suburbs?

NO... as you are doubtless aware, those are your words, not mine. I'm saying that students from those areas should be going to the same schools as students from other areas so that they are exposed to all that is out there. Otherwise, they do not actually get a proper education.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 26):
This seperation of folks is brought on by the various people themselves and is not always forced by racism.

I recognize that, but undoing racism is not the only reason you integrate.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 26):
I just have a problem with a school district that thinks uprooting kids in the name of diversity is a good thing.

Well, then don't move to Louisville. The integration program there was wildly popular -- only one family disliked the program, and they're the ones that sued.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 26):
I would want then to improve that school versus making my decision for me.

Well, if you're as you say you are, and wouldn't take your kid out of school because of a growing minority presence, then good on ya. But you're being shortsighted here -- the integration programs ensure that all of the schools are treated equally, and will be improved equally. You don't believe your kid's more deserving of a better school merely because of your personal status in life, do you?  Wink

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 26):
you think the government should mandate where we go to school and possibly even where we live so we can have this big happy nirvana of racial equality?

I've never said anything about forcing people to live in any particular place.
But YES, absolutely the government should mandate where we go to school, if you choose to partake in the public school system. And YES, absolutely, going to school with people of other races and cultures froman early age prevents the barriers between races and classes from forming. I've seen it with my own eyes growing up in Virginia, so you can't tell me I'm wrong.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 26):
If the black school is underperforming what exactly does bussing them across town to the white school or the asian school do for them other than waste time?

I assume when you say "the black neighborhood" you implicitly meant "the poor black neighborhood" -- which of course you know the people are there not because they "want to live with black people" but rather, because they have to live in a ghetto due to their own misfortunes. Now with that said, when the "underperforming" school in the black neighborhood is realigned to send its kids to the rich white neighborhood school, the thing you gain is that those black kids are going to FINALLY have access to a school that may actually be able to teach them. "Underperforming" is definitely in part because of a lack of parenting, but it is ALSO, and SIGNIFICANTLY in part because of a lack of teaching, and a lack of resources.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 26):
We should spend money on all schools regardless of the majority race contained within them.

I agree with that, but we all know that that's not what happens, especially considering school funding in most places comes from local property taxes.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 26):
If the black school gets the same money and equipment as the white school but continues to underperform then maybe we should look at other things beyond bussing.

I agree with that too... but again, do you think it is possible that separate schools can be equal? And do you think that the black kids in the black school are getting a quality education when interactions white people don't occur? And vice versa?
 
deltagator
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RE: Supreme Court Bans School Integration In WA, KY

Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 26):
As did my college but the black community didn't care and ignored almost all attempts to make them feel included.

How is that relevant to this discussion?

I mentioned the way that schools are all desgregated from K-12 but there is a segregation at the higher levels brought on by the minorities themselves lots of times. You said at your school that wasn't the case and I was saying at my school it was despite the various outreaching to the minorities. That's why it was relevant.

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
Well, then don't move to Louisville. The integration program there was wildly popular -- only one family disliked the program, and they're the ones that sued.

From what I understand the Louisville system involved choice by picking what school you wanted to go to and if just happened to be across town then that was your problem to deal with. I have no issue with that plan but I have issues with plans that force kids to go somewhere.

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
You don't believe your kid's more deserving of a better school merely because of your personal status in life, do you?

First off I don't think I or my kids DESERVE anything. They, as myself, have and will have to EARN it. But given the current system if I work hard to live in an area with good schools for my kids and then am told, sorry but you're kids have to go to the school in the Meth or Crack neighborhood with low test scores and crappy teachers you can bet damn well I will be pissed and that I think my kids are getting screwed.

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
I agree with that too... but again, do you think it is possible that separate schools can be equal? And do you think that the black kids in the black school are getting a quality education when interactions white people don't occur? And vice versa?

Like I said, under the old Jim Crow laws the whole separate but equal thing was a joke. In today's world if people so desire to live within their own neighborhoods then so be it and all schools should be handled accordingly. Yes, school funding comes from property taxes but places like Atlanta have very rich sections of town that can make up for the shortfall of the lower income sections of town and fund schools at the same levels. At that point if the school underperforms, regardless of majority race, then somethin other than money needs to be looked at even if it hurts some feelings.

And no, I don't think kids getting an education at an all black school or an all white school get a total education. They are definitley missing out on some stuff but in the grand scheme of things it isn't going to kill them nor turn them into rabid little Klansmen or Black Panthers just because they didn't have large interaction with the other race.

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
I assume when you say "the black neighborhood" you implicitly meant "the poor black neighborhood" -- which of course you know the people are there not because they "want to live with black people" but rather, because they have to live in a ghetto due to their own misfortunes.

You make an ass out of yourself when you assume DLX. What hack law school did you go to that teaches asumptions based on facts not in evidence?  Wink I live in a majority black neighborhood and nobody in here is even remotely poor.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."

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