andessmf
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Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:04 pm

This is just sick.

"The former French president François Mitterrand supported the perpetrators of the 1994 Rwandan genocide despite clear warnings that mass killings of the Tutsi population were being orchestrated, according to declassified French documents."

"The documents, obtained by lawyers for six Tutsi survivors who are bringing a case against France for "complicity with genocide'' at the Paris Army Tribunal, suggest the late President Mitterrand's support for the Hutus was informed by an obsession with maintaining a French foothold in the region."

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2730430.ece
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:32 pm

DUH!!!

Read Shake Hands with the Devule, by LtGen Romeo Dallaire, Force Commander of UNAMIR.

Heck, a sergeant from the Pentagon said that 80000 Rwandans had to die to justify one American Soldier. The French supported thegovernment which perpretrated most of the genocide.

But most of all its not what the west did - its what the west DID NOT do. They did not put human lives above their own want for resources. They did not champion the humanitarian causes.


Cheers,
Kyle
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sw733
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:43 pm

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 1):
But most of all its not what the west did - its what the west DID NOT do. They did not put human lives above their own want for resources. They did not champion the humanitarian causes.

Having lived in "the east" and "the west", it is clear that most Westerners just simply don't care about Africa. Well, a few do, and everyone pretends they do or they want to, but, in reality...they have to look out for number 1. And I don't blame them, everyone the world over looks out for number 1, but...it is one thing to look out for number 1, and another thing to just completely turn your back on an entire continent and act like they don't matter just because it benefits you, or because they are poor, or because they "treat each other so horribly" as I have heard from more than a couple people. So, in conclusion, I must agree with you 100% on your statement.
 
andessmf
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 1):
They did not champion the humanitarian causes.

But still now some expect that they will.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:16 pm

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 1):
their own want for resources

Resources being...?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
sw733
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:20 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Resources being...?

I don't think there are resources to be gained, and that's the thing...what do they have to gain from helping? Not a lot...it may be moral and all that, but moral doesn't pay the bills. Same thing happens in most countries (for example, my countries cooperation with Mugabe's Zimbabwe...we all know he's a monster, but my government has decided it's worse for us to not work with Zimbabwe because of the economic impact the loss of relations would have)
 
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yowza
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:26 pm

Quoting SW733 (Reply 5):
I don't think there are resources to be gained, and that's the thing...what do they have to gain from helping?

Bingo! Had their been anything worth exploiting your can bet every western power would be there and would have been active. It's a real shame. I had the pleasure of meeting Romeo Dallaire in Ottawa a couple of years ago, I have never felt so small in my life.

YOWza
 
sw733
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 6):
Bingo! Had their been anything worth exploiting your can bet every western power would be there and would have been active. It's a real shame. I had the pleasure of meeting Romeo Dallaire in Ottawa a couple of years ago, I have never felt so small in my life.

Holy crap, we agree about Africa?!?!?!?!?!  Wink  thumbsup 
 
JAL777
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:58 pm

Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
Having lived in "the east" and "the west", it is clear that most Westerners just simply don't care about Africa.

Having also live in "the east" and "the west," it is clear most Africans simply don't care about Africa either.  Angry
 
andessmf
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:10 pm

Is it only me that gets the hipocrisy of some of those powers-that-be that criticized our actions in Iraq, when by their own inaction, 800,000 died?
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Resources being...?

Coffee and Tea. Rwanda was a boom for Belgium before Belgium let their colonial holdings go.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 3):
But still now some expect that they will.

I highly, highly doubt it.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):

Many kids I know still think nothing of Africa. Ill bring up the subject in a class conversation on the state of the world or something in school, and the typical response to any topic on Africa from either a student or a teacher (unexcuseable) is that it simply doesnt matter, because "its Africa". And, man, lemme tell ya, its effed up, wrong, hypocritical, and it makes me angry that they can simply look over so many people.

How can we, the United States of America, the United Kingdom, any rich western power, say we believe in humanitarian causes when we display such conduct as we did in Rwanda? Its high time, I think, to prove it.

"If we believe all humans are human, then how are we going to prove it? It can only be proven through our actions." - Romeo Dallaire

Too true, too true.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Is it only me that gets the hipocrisy of some of those powers-that-be that criticized our actions in Iraq, when by their own inaction, 800,000 died?

Politicians, Conrad, will be politicians.


Cheers,
Kyle
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andessmf
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:38 pm

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 10):
Politicians, Conrad, will be politicians.

Matters of life and death should not be politicized. I know they are, but they shouldn't.
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:58 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 11):

Agree 110%
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scrubbsywg
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:07 pm

as was mentioned, i think everyone should read Shake Hands With the Devil, by Dallaire. Its a fantastic read, and gives you the impression that no one wanted to help these people except most of the commanders on the ground, and probably the personnel as well. People in washington/new york bickering about who's going to pay for the gas for APCs to protect targets for assasinations was just one thing that sticks in my mind about the west's indifference towards this, and pisses me off.

Its unfortunate that 13 years later, nothing much has really changed. The UN was not held accountable(who would do that?), western nations just kinda wiped their hands of it. We don't hear about it much these days, and even if we do, its nothing of substance.
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:39 pm

One of our clients pals from Northern Ireland runs a charity in Rwanda called Food for Though. Basically the kids get fed and can take food home to their families, but only after they have completed several hours of schooling each day.

He said that they have also made great strides knocking heads together, basically saying to these people that you aren't Hutus or Tutsis, you're RWANDAN, and he feels the message is sinking in. However, this was a decade ago, and I would think that reconciliation rather than lawsuits are the better way forward.

Everyone agrees that the whole Rwanda situation was terrible and "something" should have been done, but you only have to see how much "action" is being done to resolve the situation in the Sudan.

Quoting JAL777 (Reply 8):
Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
Having lived in "the east" and "the west", it is clear that most Westerners just simply don't care about Africa.

Having also live in "the east" and "the west," it is clear most Africans simply don't care about Africa either.

As an 8 year North Africa resident, I second that.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:58 pm

The worse is that we pay billions to the Africans and Merkel says we want to help , but we still ruin the farmers in Africa with our Agrar Subventions !

This is criminal !

Konstantin
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Dougloid
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:35 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 15):
The worse is that we pay billions to the Africans and Merkel says we want to help , but we still ruin the farmers in Africa with our Agrar Subventions !

This is criminal !

Konstantin

OK. since ag policy is something I know a little about, just how do European farm subsidies ruin African farmers? What subsidies are we talking about, anyway?

I mean, I've heard all the arguments that US farm subsidies are attempting to cram GMOs down the throats of third world farmers in their loincloths and ruin them financially. It's a remarkably simplisticviewpoint about a complex issue but there it is.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16):

Well the EU subventions are 350 billion Euros a year !

The concurrence from Europe and America ruins the farmers , as the productions cost in Europe are (because of subventions) less than in Africa .

This makes that the African farmers are not competitive with Europeans or Americans .

The Stop of this Subventions would be the best development aid for Africa .


BTW : The EU subventions are 350 billion Dollar , the world development aid is less than 60 billion .

This is one more reason to be against the ALCA , which is for South America but still the same (and main) reasons of the US :

To get as much as money as possible .

Konstantin
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MaverickM11
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 10):
Coffee and Tea. Rwanda was a boom for Belgium before Belgium let their colonial holdings go.

You think the West didn't intervene in Rwanda because of our "want" of coffee and Tea?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Queso
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Thread starter):
Disgusting West Conduct

How did "The West" factor into all of this? The only country I see mentioned in the opening post is France.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
it is clear that most Westerners just simply don't care about Africa.

I don't. Tell me why I should.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
and everyone pretends they do or they want to

I don't, and I don't make it any secret. It's a resource-rich continent, and it's inhabitants are capable of having anything "The West" has if they stop their infighting and put their minds to developing what they have.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:09 pm

Quoting Queso (Reply 19):

How did "The West" factor into all of this? The only country I see mentioned in the opening post is France.

The west just looked how all this poor people were killed ... they never reacted ... same as in Darfur
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skidmarks
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:22 pm

Regarding the situation with Africa and the former colonial powers, because thats where most of the blame is pointed, people seem to forget the eagerness that Africa had to get rid of them. Without the stabilising influence of Britain, France et al, Africa has largely been left to it's own devices and the resulting chaos and mayhem has a lot to do with this.

I firmly believe that if the colonial withdrawl from Africa had been slower and more coordinated then Africa would'nt be in nearly half as bad a condition as it is today. However, they did withdraw pretty fast post-war and the result is the misery and strife we see just about anywhere in Africa today.

As for France condoning the murders of thousands of Rwandans, that doesn't surprise me as the French have always been reluctant to let any colony go and tend to treat their former citizens as less than human. Although I don't think any of us are totally whiter than white in that respect.

Andy  old 
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speedbird747BA
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting Queso (Reply 19):
How did "The West" factor into all of this? The only country I see mentioned in the opening post is France.

Belgium and the US were involved as well.

Quoting Queso (Reply 19):
I don't. Tell me why I should.

Well, just wondering, did you care about N. Ireland? Bosnia, Serbia?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
You think the West didn't intervene in Rwanda because of our "want" of coffee and Tea?

Thats a negative, Ghostrider.

I misspoke (mistyped?). The west would have intervened had there been resources there.

Cheers,
Kyle
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MaverickM11
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 20):
The west just looked how all this poor people were killed ... they never reacted ... same as in Darfur

What do you want the West to do, specifically?

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 22):
The west would have intervened had there been resources there.

Why did the West intervene in Sierra Leone?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):

What do you want the West to do, specifically?

create a fair market .
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Queso
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 22):
Well, just wondering, did you care about N. Ireland? Bosnia, Serbia?

Does it matter?

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 24):
create a fair market .

That is a convenient and easy to type excuse, but it has nothing to do with this. The countries in Africa can trade among themselves and "The East", "The South", and "The Pacific" if they want to. The thinking that the entire world's success is dependent upon The West having a utopian "fair market" is ignoring the fact that these coutries need to help themselves be successful. What if there was no "The West"? How did countries prosper before there was a "The West"?

And tell me who is sending the most economic aid to Africa. Could it be.....THE WEST?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 24):
create a fair market .

I don't disagree with that but how would that change anything in Darfur or Rwanda?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 24):
create a fair market .

Hmmmm....Konstantin could you clarify? You mean you want the west to make it fair for Africans competing in the global market? Or you want the west to force an African market that has fair laws? Or what?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 23):
Why did the West intervene in Sierra Leone?

Would you mind making a statement every once in a while?

Its not that the West doesnt intervene rather they intervene too late, and when they finally arrive they pussy foot around bickering over details and dont get much of anything done, then pull out, show pretty pictures on websites and wash their hands of it.

And the wests' intervention in Sierra Leone was a bunch of BS, the usual cadre of UN peacekeepers, not much else, and they didnt get all that much done.

Cheers,
Kyle
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speedbird747BA
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 25):
Does it matter?

I guess this is the generation gap, but yes it matters to me.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 26):
I don't disagree with that but how would that change anything in Darfur or Rwanda?

Ya.....Im confused on this point as well Konstantin......Im not sure it would do much of anything.

Cheers,
Kyle
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 25):

That is a convenient and easy to type excuse, but it has nothing to do with this. The countries in Africa can trade among themselves and "The East", "The South", and "The Pacific" if they want to. The thinking that the entire world's success is dependent upon The West having a utopian "fair market" is ignoring the fact that these coutries need to help themselves be successful. What if there was no "The West"? How did countries prosper before there was a "The West"?

False .

I´ll take for example milk (but same for all agrarian products):

1 Liter milk in Germany production costs : 70c.

1 Liter milk in Zambia production costs : 1.20c.


Do you thing Brazil , China or South Africa will buy the Zambian milk ? Being 50c more expensive !?

Same for the European or US market , the Africans can´t introduce their milk to our markets because they can´t compete with our Agrarian Industries , but we sell them milk for lower prices .

Man thats so discussed , every Developement org. says this .

Quoting Queso (Reply 25):

And tell me who is sending the most economic aid to Africa. Could it be.....THE WEST?

as said , if we want to help them , we should stop the subventions .

BTW: EU Agrarian Subventions per year : 350 billion (without US) -- World development aid money : 60 billion .


All clear,

Konstantin
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 26):

see reply 29  Wink
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 25):
That is a convenient and easy to type excuse, but it has nothing to do with this. The countries in Africa can trade among themselves and "The East", "The South", and "The Pacific" if they want to. The thinking that the entire world's success is dependent upon The West having a utopian "fair market" is ignoring the fact that these coutries need to help themselves be successful. What if there was no "The West"? How did countries prosper before there was a "The West"?

I think the problem is that unlike e.g. SE Asia they simply do not seem to produce anything someone else would want. And starting conditions 50 years later were not that different in Africa and SE Asia. And no I don not even pretend to be an expert on Africa or that I really care. Honestly I don't.

Quoting Queso (Reply 25):
And tell me who is sending the most economic aid to Africa. Could it be.....THE WEST?

The question is whether it has any real positive impact or it's just done for someone to "feel good" with a byproduct being that yet another generation completely dependent on handouts is raised that way.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 10):
Many kids I know still think nothing of Africa. Ill bring up the subject in a class conversation on the state of the world or something in school, and the typical response to any topic on Africa from either a student or a teacher (unexcuseable) is that it simply doesnt matter, because "its Africa". And, man, lemme tell ya, its effed up, wrong, hypocritical, and it makes me angry that they can simply look over so many people.

It's hard not be completely indifferent towards "Africa" because nothing seems to work there. Even relatively successful countries like Zimbabwe have become complete basket case in a matter of just few years.
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 29):
Man thats so discussed , every Developement org. says this .

To be fair, every development organization isnt fair.


Cheers,
Kyle
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speedbird747BA
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 31):
It's hard not be completely indifferent towards "Africa" because nothing seems to work there. Even relatively successful countries like Zimbabwe have become complete basket case in a matter of just few years.

Well if some African nations can do well enough (Ghana), then all can.

Cheers,
Kyle
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andessmf
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 19):
How did "The West" factor into all of this? The only country I see mentioned in the opening post is France.

If you google additional info, you will see how the West did nothing. Of course, some of the same individuals and groups love to call the US 'murderers', nicely forgetting about Rwanda.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 27):
Or you want the west to force an African market that has fair laws?

In this, I would agree with Konstantin, except that I don't think he has explained it well.

I have read that African farmers have complained that subsidies and protectionism of agricultural products had not allowed their own products to compete in the global market. All they want is even ground, since their governments cannot afford the level of subsidies richer countries provide their farmers.

Quoting Skidmarks (Reply 21):
I firmly believe that if the colonial withdrawl from Africa had been slower and more coordinated then Africa would'nt be in nearly half as bad a condition as it is today. However, they did withdraw pretty fast post-war and the result is the misery and strife we see just about anywhere in Africa today.

Agreed. Unfortunately, their independence was done w/o regards to whether these countries had competent people to manage the countries after the colonizers left.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 27):
Its not that the West doesnt intervene rather they intervene too late, and when they finally arrive they pussy foot around bickering over details and dont get much of anything done, then pull out, show pretty pictures on websites and wash their hands of it.

It's called the UN and "multilateralism". The whole "unilateral thing" isn't well received.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 30):
see reply 29

Doesn't make sense?

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 29):
as said , if we want to help them , we should stop the subventions .

Amen to that. But that still won't make the Tutsis stop hating the Hutus, for example.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 27):
And the wests' intervention in Sierra Leone was a bunch of BS, the usual cadre of UN peacekeepers, not much else, and they didnt get all that much done.

What do you want the West to do?

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 27):
Would you mind making a statement every once in a while?

You blame everything on the West but offer no alternative. There.  Silly
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 28):
I guess this is the generation gap, but yes it matters to me.

Maybe it's the naive idealism of the youth???

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 29):
Do you thing Brazil , China or South Africa will buy the Zambian milk ? Being 50c more expensive !?

Same for the European or US market , the Africans can´t introduce their milk to our markets because they can´t compete with our Agrarian Industries , but we sell them milk for lower prices .

Well if EU's CAP is nonsense then the idea of selling milk from e.g. Botswana in Germany is a meganonsense. Why would you transport locally produced and locally available commodity accross half of the planet? Not to mention hygienic and veterinary aspects.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):
Well if EU's CAP is nonsense then the idea of selling milk from e.g. Botswana in Germany is a meganonsense. Why would you transport locally produced and locally available commodity accross half of the planet? Not to mention hygienic and veterinary aspects.

well it´s stupid , but lucrative for western companies .
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 37):
but lucrative for western companies

And the problem is??? Those "lucrative for western companies" you despise so much provide - by sending its people back an forth on business trips in J and F class - huge portion of the revenue for Lufthansa you want to work for so bad... so better pray the hand that will feed you one day remains "lucrative". How long would LH last flying pinko-commies??? But looking on your profile I doubt there's a chance you'd get the point.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:58 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
And the problem is??? Those "lucrative for western companies" you despise so much provide - by sending its people back an forth on business trips in J and F class - huge portion of the revenue for Lufthansa you want to work for so bad... so better pray the hand that will feed you one day remains "lucrative". How long would LH last flying pinko-commies??? But looking on your profile I doubt there's a chance you'd get the point.

c´mon please let´s stay with Arguments ...


The European governments give the Agrarian industries 350 billion Euros per year , well we can say it our problem , but if we want to help and let the African countries develop , we have to stop with that ...


Konstantin
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 39):

The European governments give the Agrarian industries 350 billion Euros per year , well we can say it our problem , but if we want to help and let the African countries develop , we have to stop with that ...

What stops the African countries to sell products elsewhere, in Africa itself? I mean feel free by all means to continue in endless self-flagellation orgies over the plight of Africa but please use "I" instead of "we".
 
Derico
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
Having lived in "the east" and "the west", it is clear that most Westerners just simply don't care about Africa

It's a catch-22: Africa should get -real--

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 40):
What stops the African countries to sell products elsewhere, in Africa itself? I mean feel free by all means to continue in endless self-flagellation orgies over the plight of Africa but please use "I" instead of "we".

I know for example Algeria, Angola import basically all their dairy from us (even as for Argentina dairy industry is not a huge market overall for their bottom line). The same with a lot of products that Africa can produce but they import from Europe. Why on Earth do they import it from so far away?? I think that's criminal that farmers in Europe and elsewhere, knowing they are crowding out local farmers, on top of that actually sell their produce back to Africa.

Is like the newly unemployed worker TRAINING their successor. That's ridiculous.
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Dougloid
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 17):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 16):


Well the EU subventions are 350 billion Euros a year !

The concurrence from Europe and America ruins the farmers , as the productions cost in Europe are (because of subventions) less than in Africa .

This makes that the African farmers are not competitive with Europeans or Americans .

The Stop of this Subventions would be the best development aid for Africa .


BTW : The EU subventions are 350 billion Dollar , the world development aid is less than 60 billion .

This is one more reason to be against the ALCA , which is for South America but still the same (and main) reasons of the US :

To get as much as money as possible .

Konstantin

Ummm, Konstantin, what I asked you was, more or less, what these subsidies are specifically and what their effect is. I know you think they're a bad thing, but I still don't know exactly what you're talking about.

C'mon, help a buddy out here.

The example you gave-price of milk-does not account for the effect of the subsidy so what I need from you is something that tells me exactly what the milk subsidy to German farmers IS and how much it amounts to.

Just so you know, farm subsidies in the US are price supports for commodity crops. They don't kick in unless the world price for a commodity crop (corn, rice, wheat, cotton, soy, and sorghum) declines below a set level that is slightly above the coast of production (the 'loan' price).

There are no other direct subsidies. There are some import tarriffs on things like sugar but they are pretty limited. There are also some barriers to trade in live animals and meat products because of animal health issues. There are also marketing orders that allegedly set minimum prices.

The net result of this is that because our domestic market is big enough it swings the commodity market price world wide. So that price support tends to work for the benefit of all producers of that crop world wide.

I had this discussion one time with an Indian colleague and he sniffed, "Oh well, our farms are small. The smallholders don't get the world price for their grain, they sell it to a middleman who they also owe a lot of money to, so the price is really poor. The middleman gets the world price."

What I told him is what I'll tell you: "That's an argument for fundamental agrarian reform, not an argument for the US to r up price supports for commodities. Does India have the heart for that fight?"
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 40):

What stops the African countries to sell products elsewhere, in Africa itself? I mean feel free by all means to continue in endless self-flagellation orgies over the plight of Africa but please use "I" instead of "we".

I answered this already but ok , again :

The EU sells in Africa (to Gambia , SA , Egypt , Kenya , etc) milk for 70c (so cheap because of the subventions) african farmers (without subventions) have higher costs so they´ve to sell the milk for 1.20 to make profit ... anybody will buy the milk for 1.20 ... so this farmers ruin .

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 42):
Ummm, Konstantin, what I asked you was, more or less, what these subsidies are specifically and what their effect is. I know you think they're a bad thing, but I still don't know exactly what you're talking about.

C'mon, help a buddy out here.

The example you gave-price of milk-does not account for the effect of the subsidy so what I need from you is something that tells me exactly what the milk subsidy to German farmers IS and how much it amounts to.

Just so you know, farm subsidies in the US are price supports for commodity crops. They don't kick in unless the world price for a commodity crop (corn, rice, wheat, cotton, soy, and sorghum) declines below a set level that is slightly above the coast of production (the 'loan' price).

There are no other direct subsidies. There are some import tarriffs on things like sugar but they are pretty limited. There are also some barriers to trade in live animals and meat products because of animal health issues. There are also marketing orders that allegedly set minimum prices.

The net result of this is that because our domestic market is big enough it swings the commodity market price world wide. So that price support tends to work for the benefit of all producers of that crop world wide.

I had this discussion one time with an Indian colleague and he sniffed, "Oh well, our farms are small. The smallholders don't get the world price for their grain, they sell it to a middleman who they also owe a lot of money to, so the price is really poor. The middleman gets the world price."

What I told him is what I'll tell you: "That's an argument for fundamental agrarian reform, not an argument for the US to r up price supports for commodities. Does India have the heart for that fight?"

Ok in the 70s the EU imported almost all agrarian products from outside , then the EU said to the farmers :

Produce more , we´ll pay you 70c per liter milk you produce if you sell it or not , this produced an over production as this was very lucrative for the farmers , this overproduction allowed exports of Milk , corn , etc . so the europeans started selling in Africa for very low prices for example : 90c/liter , African farmers couldn´t produce so cheap so they were ruinated .


What we have to do is stop with this subventions , so african farmers can compete in Africa and in the world .

Hope this makes it more understandable

BTW : thousands of tonnes of food are burned every year because of this overproductions , but farmers don´t stop because of the 70c ...

Konstantin

[Edited 2007-07-05 20:20:35]
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MaverickM11
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:00 am

http://www.freetrade.org/node/308

"One, reform would deliver lower food prices to tens of millions of American households, especially low-income families that spend a higher share of their income on food. Americans pay artificially high prices for sugar, milk, butter, cheese, peanuts, beef and orange juice. Last year, according to the OECD, U.S. farm programs transferred $16.2 billion from U.S. food consumers to producers. That amounts to a regressive annual "food tax" on the typical American household of $147.

Two, reform would lower costs for U.S. industries, such as confectioners and other food processors, that use agricultural commodities in their final products. For example, the U.S. sugar program maintains a domestic price that is twice the world price, imposing a huge cost on U.S. producers of candy and other confectionary products, chocolate and cocoa products, chewing gum, bread and other bakery products, cookies and crackers, and frozen bakery products. In the past decade thousands of jobs have been lost in the confectionary industry, with losses especially heavy in the Chicago area.

Manufacturing and service industries also would benefit from farm reform because existing U.S. policies remain the biggest obstacle to a comprehensive Doha Round agreement in the World Trade Organization. Develop-ing countries such as India and Brazil will not be ready to sign a serious deal on opening global markets to competitive U.S. exports until the U.S., European Union and other rich countries are ready to make meaningful cuts in their farm subsidies and trade barriers.

Three, reducing farm subsidies would save U.S. taxpayers tens of billions of dollars during the next decade. The first three fiscal years following the enactment of the 2002 farm bill have seen an estimated $55.5 billion spent on farm subsidies already. While Republican leaders in Congress say there is no fat left in the budget to trim, farm subsidies provide an obvious target for savings. And many of those subsidy payments currently go to large farms and agribusinesses, not to smaller "family farms."
Four, agricultural reform would enhance the environment by reducing the amount of topsoil lost and damaging fertilizers and pesticides used by American farmers. It would liberate farmland to be used for reforestation, recreation and other more environmentally friendly uses. A study by the Environmental Protection Agency found that 72 percent of U.S. rivers and 56 percent of lakes it surveyed suffer from agriculture-related pollution.

Five, agricultural reform would benefit farmers themselves by promoting production of crops that are in demand by consumers. Farm reform would stimulate innovation and productivity gains on the farm, and promote more economic diversity and dynamism in rural communities. The end of subsidies and protection would not be the end of farming. Many farmers in New Zealand and Australia are thriving even though their governments largely ended farm giveaways in the 1980s.

Six, lower farm trade barriers would raise incomes among farmers in poor countries, reduce global poverty and create a more hospitable climate abroad for U.S. foreign policy. While the U.S. government promises more aid for Africa, U.S. cotton subsidies have driven down global prices, imposing an annual cost of between $250 million and $400 million on cotton farmers in West and Central Africa. This sort of hypocrisy breeds resentment against U.S. policies in general.
"

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 42):
The example you gave-price of milk-does not account for the effect of the subsidy so what I need from you is something that tells me exactly what the milk subsidy to German farmers IS and how much it amounts to.

" The EU's agricultural support amounted to about $133 billion, Japan's to $49 billion, America's to $47 billion, South Korea's to $20 billion and Canada's and Switzerland's to $6 billion each. Moreover, in 2003, the British think-tank Policy Exchange found that EU consumers "pay 42 percent more for agricultural products than they would if the system were dismantled. Americans pay 10 percent extra, Japanese more than twice as much"

http://www.freetrade.org/node/300
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andessmf
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 44):
"pay 42 percent more for agricultural products than they would if the system were dismantled. Americans pay 10 percent extra, Japanese more than twice as much"

You guys are making me agree with Konstantin!  duck  We might believe that some of the price support is not much $$, but in developing countries, the amounts spent are a huge amount relatively speaking.

I also have family that export food (bananas and brocoli) from Ecuador to the US and Europe. There is a large amount of trade that is food related. The West is essentially giving fish to Africa, while Africa mostly wants to learn to fish.

As many know, giving direct aid to developed countries is mostly a waste that benefits few, while allowing freer trade would benefit more.
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:50 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
It's called the UN and "multilateralism". The whole "unilateral thing" isn't well received.

True, the structure of the UN needs to be changed to fix that, and being realistic, this is NEVER going to happen, the UN will be long gone by then.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
What do you want the West to do?



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
You blame everything on the West but offer no alternative. There.

haha OK point take, I am being unfair here, it is largely on the Africans to get Africa in line, but in the case of Rwanda, the West could have and should have intervened to prevent the genocide, because it was preventable and not by the Rwandans?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 36):
Maybe it's the naive idealism of the youth???

Im sure it is!  laughing  Honestly though, I used to be way more conservative, wayyyy more conservative.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 45):
You guys are making me agree with Konstantin!

 rotfl   rotfl 

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 45):
The West is essentially giving fish to Africa, while Africa mostly wants to learn to fish.

 checkmark   checkmark 

Cheers,
Kyle
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andessmf
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 46):
but in the case of Rwanda, the West could have and should have intervened to prevent the genocide, because it was preventable and not by the Rwandans?

Very basic history:

'Only Belgium had asked for a strong UNAMIR mandate, but after the gruesome murder of the ten Belgian peacekeepers protecting the Prime Minister in early April, Belgium pulled out of the peacekeeping mission

In the US, President Bill Clinton and US Ambassador to the UN Madeleine Albright refused to take action.[19] Clinton and Albright would both later express regret for their inaction.

The UN and its member states appeared largely detached from the realities on the ground (Report; Statement). In the midst of the crisis, Dallaire was instructed to focus UNAMIR on only evacuating foreign nationals from Rwanda, and the change in orders led Belgian peacekeepers to abandon a technical school filled with 2,000 refugees, while Hutu militants waited outside, drinking beer and chanting "Hutu Power." After the Belgians left, the militants entered the school and massacred those inside, including hundreds of children. Four days later, the Security Council voted to reduce UNAMIR to 260 men

Representatives of the Rwandan Roman Catholic Church, long associated with the radical Hutus in Rwanda, also used their links in Europe to reduce criticism. France, which felt the US and UK would use the massacres to try to expand their influence in that Francophone part of Africa, also worked to prevent a foreign intervention.

On June 22, with no sign of UN deployment taking place, the Security Council authorized French forces to land in Goma, Zaire on a humanitarian mission. They deployed throughout southwest Rwanda in an area they called "Zone Turquoise," quelling the genocide and stopping the fighting there, but often arriving in areas only after the Tutsi had been forced out or killed. Operation Turquoise is charged with aiding the Hutu army and fighting against the RPF."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide

At the time of the massacre, my wife had a friend from Rwanda.

After Rwanda, I lost complete respect for many institutions and countries that 'fiddled while Rwanda burned'.
 
speedbird747BA
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 47):


Good post. By the way, in my statement that you quoted, I should have put a period at the end. Oops!



Cheers,
Kyle
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yowza
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RE: Disgusting West Conduct In Rwanda Revealed.

Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:11 am

Quoting SW733 (Reply 7):
Holy crap, we agree about Africa?!?!?!?!?! Wink thumbsup

haha, as I was typing it I had a smile on my face knowing that we agreed on an issue that we were worlds apart on in a diffferent thread.

Quoting Speedbird747BA (Reply 33):
Well if some African nations can do well enough (Ghana), then all can.

Can I ask why exactly it is you (and many others) perceive Ghana to be a model nation upon which others should model themselves? Having lived in Ghana and seen the sheer madness of the place I can't understand why this notion that it is a great place is allowed to persist. It is not by any stretch of even the most vivid imagination what many perceive it to be.

Even if it was the great state that many seem to think it is, it is important to understand that not all countries on the continent have/had the same natural wealth (gold, arable land etc) also few countries on the continent saw investment on the scale that Ghana was lucky to see years ago such as the River Volta project/Akosombo Dam and the aluminum smelter at Tema.

YOWza

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