gkirk
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Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:26 pm

Do We Want The Euro In The UK? (by CON207 Jan 12 2004 in Non Aviation)

Well, it's been a few years since the infamous monster created by CON207.
About time we had a new discussion about the benefits or lack of benefits if the UK (combined, or individually - but thats for another thread) was to adopt the Euro.

Of course, within 4 posts this thread will become completely off-topic, and the likes of flooding random countries, taking the mickey out of the French and Germans and discussing fine cuisine will become the norm.
Oh, and also discussions about the monarchy which should lure QFF to this thread where he may become ridiculed for no reason whatsover  Wink

That thread also seen the beginning of a long and tireless campaign to get the Scottish flag in our a.net profiles. A fight which we won due to our restless, fierce campaigning. Something the Administrator saw and was hugely impressed by.

That being said, if the regulars from that infamous thread in 2003/2004 are still about, welcome back  Wink
Andreas
Klaus
Racko
NoUFO
MD11Engineer
And the rest of the German Orcs  duck 
Banco
Arsenal@LHR
Paulc

And anyone else who was onboard that epic journey. Unfortunately, I believe Kaz is no longer a member of these boards so we have lost at least 1 regular contributor.
 wave 


Sabena332 is not welcome in this thread due to the fact that he locked us out last time.  gnasher 

So, here we go  crazy 
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:33 pm

Yes, here we go... agaaaiiin...

Wait. Hang on. Who said the EuroGroup wanted the Brits in it anyway?  duck 

You'd better start with the beginning, young fellow, and make sure that the pre-required criteria are fulfilled before you launch in your bashing endeavour.

 Smile
 
gkirk
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:36 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 1):
You'd better start with the beginning, young fellow, and make sure that the pre-required criteria are fulfilled before you launch in your bashing endeavour.

Yes.  Wink

Andreas recently had a picture taken of him:
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:38 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 2):

 biggrin 

Do you think you can paint him in blue with yellow stars (aka the EU flag, just to be sure we're on the same page)?

 Wink
 
gkirk
Posts: 23347
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:39 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 3):
Do you think you can paint him in blue with yellow stars (aka the EU flag, just to be sure we're on the same page)?

No.  Wink
Someone else can try that  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
bill142
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:46 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter):

Of course, within 4 posts this thread will become completely off-topic,

It was off topic within one post. Were you being optimistic?

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter):
That thread also seen the beginning of a long and tireless campaign to get the Scottish flag in our a.net profiles. A fight which we won due to our restless, fierce campaigning. Something the Administrator saw and was hugely impressed by.

The rest of us call it 'whinge and win'
 
gkirk
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:51 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 5):
It was off topic within one post. Were you being optimistic?

Am I not always optimistic?

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 5):
The rest of us call it 'whinge and win'

Aah bless  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:54 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 6):
Am I not always optimistic?

Artistically yet sometimes desperately so.  Wink
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:58 pm

Goodness. Well, let's see. Would the UK weigh more if the euros were thrown in the air? What if Brits payed euros using treadmills, would the euros take off? Can the progress of the euro be tracked with a snow globe? Is the euro cool? Why does one part of the euro stick out further than the rest? Must be some kind of optical illusion? No, yes, no, yes, no, etc. Can you get around the privacy settings for the euro? Any Chinese Euros? Will they work without the contribution of ANCflyer? Will the mafia control the Euro? Will it be constructed with super thread?

oh and this idea is a sheepishly baaaaaaaad idea.

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
jwenting
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:58 pm

most people (not governments, people...) inside the Euro zone want to get rid of the darn thing and have ever since its unholy inception.

I wonder why politicians outside the zone still think it's a good idea (or rather why they're still able to convince their electorate that it's a good idea, it's clear why the politicians think it's a good idea, the increased tax revenue makes for fatter Swiss bank accounts for themselves).
I wish I were flying
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:00 pm

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 8):
this idea is a sheepishly baaaaaaaad idea

Why do you mention sheep? Why? WHY?  Wink Isn't it a lovely Sunday? Why ruin it?
 
davestanKSAN
Posts: 1532
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:06 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 10):
Why do you mention sheep? Why? WHY?  Wink Isn't it a lovely Sunday? Why ruin it?

BAAAAH!!!! I mean shoot. You're right of course. Hope nobody had a cow.

ƒ Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
gkirk
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 11):
BAAAAH!!!! I mean shoot. You're right of course. Hope nobody had a cow.

When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:22 pm

In short, no, I personally do not want the Euro in the UK. I believe we are fine as we are with the pound and there is not a huge need to change, we are not the only country in Europe not to have the Euro and personally speaking, I think if we had wanted to change to the Euro, it would have happened a few years back when most other countries joined the bandwagon.

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
A342
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:27 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
most people (not governments, people...) inside the Euro zone want to get rid of the darn thing and have ever since its unholy inception.

If you define "most people" as some nationalists who never travel abroad, then yes, I'd agree with you. Flame me all you want, but that's the reality.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:33 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 12):

What a moooving picture.

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
JRadier
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 14):
If you define "most people" as some nationalists who never travel abroad, then yes, I'd agree with you. Flame me all you want, but that's the reality.

Might as well flame me, because I couldn't agree more with you! Most people who look at the complete picture (travelling abroad, seeing the position of the Euro in the world economy) seem to like the euro. The US dollar was (and is) the world currency, but the Euro (and Yuan once it's revaluated) is on the rise!
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
gkirk
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:23 pm

Just for the Germans  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Arniepie
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:47 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter):

Better question would be, do we want the UK in the EU, from the moment they joined they didn't contribute any significant or constructive proposal to makes things better in the EU.
The UK seems to be only in not to be out, if they don't really want in they should be allowed to leave the EU and stop "sabotaging" progress and get some bilateral treaty instead (not much unlike Switzerland) maybe it would turn out to be better for all involved parties.
[edit post]
 
Klaus
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:57 pm

Way to go, Kirkie!  bigthumbsup 

Ah... the nostalgia...!  cool 

Not wanting to shy away from the full range of topics to be discussed, I'll still address the core topic first:

The €uro is by now an increasingly solidified reality, and apart from the kind of peripheral grumbling you'll have about anything at any time, it is accepted and few very would actually abandon its undeniable benefits for a resurrection of the fractured and very often problematic monetary past.

Any currency has always been man-made and artificial, and people simply get used to it after a while after initially complaining and feeling estranged.

Britain has so far resorted to an extreme stance of cherry-picking with regard to the European Union: Exploit the common market but don't participate in any way in the development of the union which is necessary to actually make this common market work. At the same time shedding industry like there's no tomorrow and ever more specializing in and increasing the dependence on financial services and related branches.

Risky strategies like that (involving, among others, unconditional support for large-scale financial gambling in hedge fonds and other instruments) heavily depend on outside factors, and as soon as those stop being favourable, there will be no buffer left if there is no substantial diversification any more.

Well, there still is that buffer: The European Union which is then clearly supposed to pick up the tab when the gamble will ultimately backfire. And that is primarily a when question, not so much one of if, even if the winning streak appears to be holding - for now.

The Euro is only one of many aspects in this matter; In truth it is about finding a sustainable strategy for Britain that doesn't depend on external bailouts as soon as the increasingly fragile financial system runs into trouble. And that fragility is in part a result of Britain's and the USA's unwillingness to put reasonable regulations in place to keep the risks even halfway in check, as evidenced at the recent G8 summit. Raising and raising the stakes with less and less substance to back them up doesn't look like a very good idea to me.

The Euro is not a magic remedy, but it's an instrument in a very different strategy which counts on substantial growth instead of basically running a gambling casino. And I think the strategy is what is in question, the fate of the pound is a marginal issue by comparison.
 
gkirk
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:03 pm

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 18):
Better question would be, do we want the UK in the EU, from the moment they joined they didn't contribute any significant or constructive proposal to makes things better in the EU.
The UK seems to be only in not to be out, if they don't really want in they should be allowed to leave the EU and stop "sabotaging" progress and get some bilateral treaty instead (not much unlike Switzerland) maybe it would turn out to be better for all involved parties.

You make some good points there.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):

Still not respecting anyone you  old  git?  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Klaus
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:05 pm

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 18):
The UK seems to be only in not to be out, if they don't really want in they should be allowed to leave the EU

They are allowed to leave, of course! The new constitution treaty just makes that clearer.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 18):
and stop "sabotaging" progress and get some bilateral treaty instead (not much unlike Switzerland)

Ironically, Switzerland is working more constructively with the EU than Britain is...  mischievous 

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 18):
maybe it would turn out to be better for all involved parties.

Could be. The britons would still remain in need of a viable long-term strategy, however...
 
Arniepie
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:11 pm

One thing the € gave us is capital volume, nowadays it is much more unlikely that large speculators (George Soros and others) speculate against the € like they did against the French Franc and other currencies back in the non€ days.
Also the strong position from the € against the almighty $ has made the whole EU region much less victim of the high oil and other resource prices since most of them are traded in $ value.
For Airbus on the other hand it is not always beneficial but hey, you can't have it all.
[edit post]
 
Klaus
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 20):
Still not respecting anyone you  old  git?

Just not handing out special favours, as always!  cool 
 
aviationmaster
Posts: 2151
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 3:47 pm

RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:16 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):

Ironically, Switzerland is working more constructively with the EU than Britain is...

Being surrounded by EU member states (except for Lichtenstein), we don't really have much of a choice  Wink
 
Klaus
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting Aviationmaster (Reply 24):
Being surrounded by EU member states (except for Lichtenstein), we don't really have much of a choice

Yes, you do... you can decide whether or not you want to have a vote about what you're executing anyway...!
 
Arniepie
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:22 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
Ironically, Switzerland is working more constructively with the EU than Britain is...

Having worked for a Swiss company back in the days I can tell that their politicians, mayor banks and industries where not happy when the Swiss voted against full EU membership.
They have to wait 15 years to try convincing their population again about joining the EU but given their laws (not able to change without the vote of the people) and isolationism which is still alive and well in Switzerland and also the fact that their independence/neutrality has brought them the economic prosperity they currently enjoy, won't change their mind IMHO.

As for the UK (and also Poland) I really think they should leave the EU with their current mindset and try it on their own.
Maybe the UK could try to capitalize on the fact that they seem to be the best placed as some kind of natural bridge (economic/political and culturally) between the EU and North America, the 2 biggest economic blocks in the world.
[edit post]
 
Klaus
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:31 pm

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 26):
As for the UK (and also Poland) I really think they should leave the EU with their current mindset and try it on their own.

In Poland the population is intensely europhile as far as I know, the crazy twins notwithstanding. But I could certainly live with the twins leaving Europe...!  mischievous 

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 26):
Maybe the UK could try to capitalize on the fact that they seem to be the best placed as some kind of natural bridge (economic/political and culturally) between the EU and North America, the 2 biggest economic blocks in the world.

There is not much of a need for such a "bridge"... american corporations generally go directly to the continent where their market is. And vice versa.

Britain's not being a full member of the common market reduces the attraction for both sides. Why deal with a separate british intermediate and the actual target market when you can eliminate one redundant level of complication in between?
 
strasserb
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:34 pm

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 8):
oh and this idea is a sheepishly baaaaaaaad idea.

Still, even in the most arid desert is an airport somewhere ...
 
GLAGAZ
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:38 pm

Nah we don't need to Euro. The pound is the daddy of all currency just now  Wink

Gaz
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
Arniepie
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:01 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
In Poland the population is intensely europhile as far as I know, the crazy twins notwithstanding. But I could certainly live with the twins leaving Europe

That could be but then these Europhile Polish citizens should reflect that in their vote and seeing the acts of their politicians it seems like they are not all that EU minded.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
There is not much of a need for such a "bridge"... American corporations generally go directly to the continent where their market is. And vice versa.

Britain's not being a full member of the common market reduces the attraction for both sides. Why deal with a separate British intermediate and the actual target market when you can eliminate one redundant level of complication in between?

I was just hypothesising as to how the UK could make non EU membership work for them.
Basically the problem remains; Their hearts and minds are certainly not in any way linked to the EU and therefore they should have the possibility to leave the EU.
I know theoretically they can if they want according to the EU treaty but I haven't seen any hard action (mainly by the UK government) regarding the matter, no bounding UK poll that decides if they are in (with all its consequences and NO exceptions or special amendment's) or out.
If the people don't want to they shouldn't be forced to be in and the rest of the EU shouldn't suffer because of it and keep staying at this road to nowhere.
[edit post]
 
exFATboy
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
Britain has so far resorted to an extreme stance of cherry-picking with regard to the European Union: Exploit the common market but don't participate in any way in the development of the union which is necessary to actually make this common market work.

Look at this from another perspective: the UK signed up for the "Common Market", a free-trade zone, not a political union with "legal personalities", "charters of freedoms" that are at odds with Anglo-Saxon tradition, and, most importantly, ever-increasing migration of power to the EU. Britain's lack of "participation" is simply a statement of "this is what we agreed to, and we will go no further towards the superstate", in the same way that when a few years ago someone floated the idea of a common currency for NAFTA, it went nowhere.

The core members of the EU continue to press the "ever closer Union" concept. For a while, it looked like the UK's alternative, "wider but not deeper", seemed to be picking up steam, with the new members, having just thrown off the Communist shackles not wanting to surrender soverignity to a new master. But the pendulum seems to be swinging back toward the superstate again, and perhaps it's time for the UK to reconsider the whole EU relationship. Especially in light of the EU's continuing lack of democracy and transparency - the recent "it's not a constitution, but does virtually everything the 'constitution' would have, but since it's not a 'constitution' no one gets to vote on it" end-run is just another sign that the leadership of the EU doesn't really give a crap about what the common citizen thinks, they're right and intend to press on regardless. In most of the "core" EU countries, all the major policical parties have pretty much the same stance on the EU (or at least it appears so from over here, to be fair) - there isn't even a chance to cast a protest vote as Brits can by voting UKIP without backing some odious far-right nationalist like LePen.

But back to the core question of the thread - the UK should definitely not give up the pound, if they adopt the euro it would become virtually impossible to withdraw from the EU if that becomes the best option for the UK.
 
Arniepie
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 31):

Your statement implies that the UK never knew that the EU was headed for a very deep going union under EU flag, that however is not entirely true, even back when they joined the EU was already headed for fargoing partnership that also would bring many legislative issues to a EURO parliament and take them away from direct UK influence.

You are however correct in your assessment that a big (US-like) EU supernation was never the ultimate goal and that the UK ,and off course the other nations too, did not sign up for that.

The main thing working against the UK is that they do almost nothing to help things further in a positive way for the whole off the EU, instead they seem to be in to prevent any and I do mean any progress that can be made.

Either they are in and offer an alternative route for the EU to take (and I don't mean solely a glorified free trade agreement) and come up with something constructive OR they are out and go their own way.
Any of these two is better than the half ass stalemate we seem to be in now.
[edit post]
 
pelican
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 31):

Look at this from another perspective: the UK signed up for the "Common Market", a free-trade zone, not a political union with "legal personalities", "charters of freedoms" that are at odds with Anglo-Saxon tradition, and, most importantly, ever-increasing migration of power to the EU.

To repeat a myth over and over again doesn't make it true. In 1973 the EC was already more than just a trade organisation. In fact the EC was never meant to be just a common market. The EU respectively its predecessors was always more than a trade organisation. It all started with giving some sovereignty to a European level in 1952.

pelican
 
OHLHD
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:39 pm

I do not think that the Euro is needed in Britain.  Smile

Filler filler filler whatever Big grin
 
rammstein
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter):
Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Not a good idea, IMHO. British people are very attached to traditions, legacy and old customs (even metrication is impossible...). Every type of change is seen as negative because of perceived loss of identity, loss of independence, etc.

Not to mention the fact that British are die-hard EU critics (if not haters) and they blame every fault on the EU, including the latest "OMG thanks to the EU Polish people are stealing our jobs". They perceive the EU as an evil foreign entity, not something they are part of and where they can contribute improvements.

In shorts, IMHO UK should leave the EU and act like Switzerland with special bilateral agreements, because the basic idea of "building a new Europe" is not perceived nor endorsed by the British people.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
But I could certainly live with the twins leaving Europe...! mischievous

When Berlusconi was PM of Italy I was ashamed of being Italian because he was the buffoon of Europe, now I somehow feel better to know someone else took Berlusconi's job.  mischievous  (But the twins are unfortunately worse and more dangerous compared to Berlusconi).
He who wishes to be rich in a day will be hanged in a day. --Leonardo Da Vinci
 
Farcry
Posts: 152
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:59 pm

Do we need/want/admire the Euro? No, No and No. Gadzooks people! We're British! When I saw the term 'Common Market' I thought 'Ello'! We isn't commun and I don't live in a market. Why should we join the infidels over the Channnel. I mean, gawdamn it. Then I got older. The thought still stinks though (though eye speel butter). Dammit! Why have wee done so well in the past? Cos we're British. Dam proud of it to. (Well I used to be). Jeez! Stuff the Euro. The pound will survive (strongly).

PS. I did not say any of this. I am not in control of my keyboard. The EU has taken over PC. AAAaaagghhh!

Don't you love Sundays  Silly
Exactly how long is a drastic measure?
 
f.pier
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:02 am

Italy is IN Eurozone and I'm very happy of it.
I would never accept to have ITL back, it would be a nightmare.

Probably being one of the 6 EU founders and admittance of Italy in the Eurozone are the only 2 good things bad Italian politicians made in 60 years.

I'm so proud of the Euro, I would not accept very well UK admittance because this would mean they want to lead and UK people only think to uk interests. The EU doesn't need UK.
 
Farcry
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:39 pm

RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting F.pier (Reply 37):
Italy is IN Eurozone and I'm very happy of it.
I would never accept to have ITL back, it would be a nightmare.

Probably being one of the 6 EU founders and admittance of Italy in the Eurozone are the only 2 good things bad Italian politicians made in 60 years.

I'm so proud of the Euro, I would not accept very well UK admittance because this would mean they want to lead and UK people only think to uk interests. The EU doesn't need UK.

But F.pier, you love us really bigthumbsup 
Exactly how long is a drastic measure?
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1429
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting Farcry (Reply 36):
Why have wee done so well in the past? Cos we're British. Dam proud of it to. (Well I used to be).

Good post LOL.


so well in the past? do you mean the 50's ,60's or 70's, the time all great British manufacturers perished:
-motoring and car industry
-aviation industry
-ship building
-basically most other industries... .
[edit post]
 
vc10
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:26 am

I am afraid that the EU is perceived by many people in the UK as a club run by Germany and France for the long term benefit of those two nations.

When the UK entered the EC it was as a trading partner and no more ,and the population has never been given the chance to vote on whether it wants to join anything else and I think that is the problem as many feel the various governments of the UK are dragging the country into an organization which most of the population do not want to belong to. This might be correct or it might be wrong, but unless the population is allowed to vote on this one subject alone we will never know.

The system before the Euro if I remember correctly was the ERM where each member currency was pegged against the others and had to stay within 2.25% of that value [Italy was allowed to vary by 6%]. When the UK entered this system in 1990 it was forced to accept a value of the pound that it always said was too high, and interest rates in the UK had to rise to try and support the pound at this value. In 1992 the speculators realizing the pound was overvalued started selling pounds every where, little help came from either Germany or France to assist the pound, interest rates in the UK rose to 15%, and the British government spent £6 billion of it's gold reserves trying to support the pound at the unrealistic high level, all to no avail and the pound had to leave the ERM

In the following year [1993] when the speculators decided that the French France was overvalued they had a go at it, but quite rapidly the community changed the drift % from 2.25% to 15 % so preventing the run on the French reserves.So you see there does seem to be two standards.

The years have gone by and things might have changed ,but it seems to many of us that unless we are willing to play by the rules set by Germany and France, we are not wanted, so it would be better for us to leave.

Well that was a bit heavy for a Sunday

littlevc10

[Edited 2007-07-08 17:30:22]
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 2):
Andreas recently had a picture taken of him:



Quoting Klaus (Reply 27):
In Poland the population is intensely europhile as far as I know, the crazy twins notwithstanding. But I could certainly live with the twins leaving Europe...! mischievous

Talking to our numerous Polish cabin crew, I have a similar impression. The twins use fear sceanarios ("If we are not carefull ze Germans vill just invade again!") to win votes. Incidentaly, the population of western Poland (the former German territories), who should be most afraid of German claims are the least worried about Germany, there exist good connections, both personal (mixed marriages) and economical. Same goes for the big cities. The majority of the twn's voters apparently comes from rural parts of Eastern and central Poland.

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 31):
Look at this from another perspective: the UK signed up for the "Common Market", a free-trade zone, not a political union with "legal personalities", "charters of freedoms" that are at odds with Anglo-Saxon tradition, and, most importantly, ever-increasing migration of power to the EU. Britain's lack of "participation" is simply a statement of "this is what we agreed to, and we will go no further towards the superstate", in the same way that when a few years ago someone floated the idea of a common currency for NAFTA, it went nowhere.

Ten the British politicians lied to the British public when they had the referendum about entering the EU in the 1970s.
On the continent, the EU was ALWAYS intended to become something bigger, bringing former enemies together (especially tying up France and Germany, which had previously at least one major war every generation, politically, economically and personally, so that any kind of war would be disastrously for both).
While I'm not happy about the actual way the EU is politically set up (IMO too much power for the appointed civil servants of the commission, not enough for the elected parliament), I firmly support the idea behind the continental EU.

Quoting F.pier (Reply 37):
Italy is IN Eurozone and I'm very happy of it.
I would never accept to have ITL back, it would be a nightmare.

Probably being one of the 6 EU founders and admittance of Italy in the Eurozone are the only 2 good things bad Italian politicians made in 60 years.

This should be understandable for anybody who witnessed the inflation and instability Italy had before with their old currency.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
halls120
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
And that fragility is in part a result of Britain's and the USA's unwillingness to put reasonable regulations in place to keep the risks even halfway in check, as evidenced at the recent G8 summit.

What "reasonable regulations" are the UK and US blocking?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Farcry
Posts: 152
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 11:39 pm

RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 39):
Good post LOL.


so well in the past? do you mean the 50's ,60's or 70's, the time all great British manufacturers perished:
-motoring and car industry
-aviation industry
-ship building
-basically most other industries... .

Aah ArniePie. Good reply. But, I was born in 1947 soo...

50's, started school and was protected by the 'system'

60's, left school, 2 jobs then joined the RAF in '66. Part OF the system.

70's, left the RAF (75 to be exact) and returned to the civvy system (where I still survive)

I do agree with you about our industry. Workers killed their own jobs in certain circumstances. Car, miners etc by constantly striking. The A/C industry was different IMO. Companies being swallowed up by bigger consortiums. Cancellation of futuristic aircraft by Governments. (TSR2 to name but one) Somehow though, I survived all this by taking MY decision to go the way 'I' wanted. Yet, my friend, we still survive. How? I often wonder. But we should maintain our individual way of life. We are an Island. Often the butt of humour (what Country isn't). Often admired for our staunch beliefs in ourselves. (Usually in the past tense). But AP, we are always there for those that need us. One of our deep down ways in life. Silly isn't it?

Here endeth the lesson for today.

Sorry for the waffle mate but, I try not to let the 'IDEALS' of other Countries cloud MY sentiments.

Farcry
Exactly how long is a drastic measure?
 
Klaus
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting VC10 (Reply 40):
I am afraid that the EU is perceived by many people in the UK as a club run by Germany and France for the long term benefit of those two nations.

Easy getting the impression that others are running the show when oneself is just standing at the sidelines sulking. The European Union is a team effort, not something where you join and automatically get privileged treatment just for showing up. Which appears to be a widespread british sentiment.

Quoting VC10 (Reply 40):
When the UK entered the EC it was as a trading partner and no more ,and the population has never been given the chance to vote on whether it wants to join anything else and I think that is the problem as many feel the various governments of the UK are dragging the country into an organization which most of the population do not want to belong to. This might be correct or it might be wrong, but unless the population is allowed to vote on this one subject alone we will never know.

The rules and goals were perfectly clear and have never changed fundamentally. The EU was never constructed for being just a market. And nobody was "duped" into joining as some people claim today.

And yes, if you value the opinion rammed down your throats by the Murdoch press more than a bit of verification on your own, it's probably in everybody's interest if you just packed up and left.

If you really checked the pros and cons by yourself and didn't leave it to an ex-australian-now-american press tycoon to do your thinking for you, you'd realize that the EU is far from the monster you make it out to be and active participation would be much more profitable in the long run than just trying to sabotage it all.

We'd love to have you in the EU, but the sulking, the abuse and the permanent sabotage aren't really worth it as it is.
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting VC10 (Reply 40):

The years have gone by and things might have changed ,but it seems to many of us that unless we are willing to play by the rules set by Germany and France, we are not wanted, so it would be better for us to leave.

You know that is one of many problems. How can Germany or France be more influential in Europe than the UK. Are those nations that much more powerful? I don't think so. If they are indeed more influential than just because the Brits never wanted to use there influence for more than to gain some special rules.

Quoting VC10 (Reply 40):
When the UK entered this system in 1990 it was forced to accept a value of the pound that it always said was too high, and interest rates in the UK had to rise to try and support the pound at this value. In 1992 the speculators realizing the pound was overvalued started selling pounds every where, little help came from either Germany or France to assist the pound, interest rates in the UK rose to 15%, and the British government spent £6 billion of it's gold reserves trying to support the pound at the unrealistic high level, all to no avail and the pound had to leave the ERM

And here is another problem. You blame other nations for your own governments mistakes.
BTW I think the exchange rate band was 6% for all nations, I could be wrong though.

pelican

[Edited 2007-07-08 18:01:44]
 
Klaus
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 41):
While I'm not happy about the actual way the EU is politically set up (IMO too much power for the appointed civil servants of the commission, not enough for the elected parliament), I firmly support the idea behind the continental EU.

Same here. Although the new changes to the EU do at last strengthen then parliament's influence. The only proper long-term perspective would be a European Commission elected and supported by the European Parliament which in turn is already now directly elected by the people, but I think we'll get there in time.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 42):
What "reasonable regulations" are the UK and US blocking?

At the recent G8 summit Germany pushed for regulations of the hedge fond market which is almost regularly threatening to set off economic crises unless they're bailed out with taxpayer's money. The ever-growing risks accumulating there and the dwindling relationship to real assets may look like a convenient financing tool, but unfortunately the risks aren't covered "in market" any more.

But both Blair and Bush blocked any progress in the matter - the casino remains open, with effectively my and your present and future taxes on the table. Not that we'd profit in any way as long as the gamble still works - that's the "beauty" of it...!  yuck 
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 45):
If they are indeed more influential than just because the Brits never wanted to use there influence for more than to gain some special rules.

Which again shows that political capital can be spent but once - and it should be spent wisely, especially with regard to the long-term development.
 
Farcry
Posts: 152
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RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 45):
You know that is one of the many problems. How can Germany or France be more influential in Europe than the UK. Are those nations that much more powerful? I don't think so. If they are indeed more influential than just because the Brits never wanted to use there influence for more than to gain some special rules.

Well Pelican and Klaus. How many years was it before (condescendingly) De Gaulle stopped saying 'Non' to the UK entering the CM? Hmmm! No power there then. He was one our biggest problems to entering the system. Then people wonder why we don't want to complete our 'total' entrance into the EU. For me, no thanks. The pound will survive as will the Euro. Personally I would return to the old £sd currency. But, I'm just ann old nadger Silly

We as a Country (UK) have joined in wars, conflicts and humanitarian aid worldwide. We could not (cannot) afford to do so but, we are usually there. But, because we don't embrace the Euro we seem to be outsiders at times. Very, very strange in my way of thinking.

Quoting VC10 (Reply 40):
Well that was a bit heavy for a Sunday

littlevc10

Excellent post littlevc10. Sorry for not quoting it earlier. BTW, is there such a thing as a little VC10?

This is not meant as an argumentative post, just bandying my thoughts with every one else's.

Farcry
Exactly how long is a drastic measure?
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Do We Want The Euro In The UK: 2007

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting Farcry (Reply 48):
We as a Country (UK) have joined in wars, conflicts and humanitarian aid worldwide. We could not (cannot) afford to do so but, we are usually there. But, because we don't embrace the Euro we seem to be outsiders at times. Very, very strange in my way of thinking.

Then you'll have to accept that on the continent we tend go foward to a more integrating EU, not just a common market.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi

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