f.pier
Posts: 1405
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 2:50 am

Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:09 am

I think it's Germany because it's big and is the only one able to lead the EU.
I think German people isn't perfect, but is the only one able to lead integration process.
I think Germany is one of the best int he world and can lead European integration process in a very good way.
I would like to have President of the EU coming from Germany.

[Edited 2007-07-08 18:09:33]
 
ajd1992
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:14 am

I think it's England because I'm English  Silly

In all seriousness though... wasn't your post just a teeny bit biased? (ok, mine was too....)
 
eelonghorn
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:20 am

What is the complete list of states in the EU in the order they joined?
 
zak
Posts: 1926
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:22 am

i'm with you there f.pier, i do think that given the integration issues, the german "lets overdo it" approach is actually not too wrong. the german "OH MY GOD WE ****ED UP BADLY WITH WW2 AND SUCH SO LETS BE EXTRA NICE AND NOT EGOISTIC" is very beneficial to the european integration process, since german leaders usually go way out of their interest to accomodate the european progress, mostly driven by the motivation that you NEVER want anyone to blame you for trying to create another german empire. given that both the uk and france have a tendency to attempt to utilize the e.u. to regain some of their imperial leverage, i do not consider them good examples in that aspect. the other countries just do not have the leverage to do anything without support from either one of the three big powers, hence they can not lead realistically.
i'd also like to point out that, apart from ideological motivations on turkey or not, the eu needs to sort itself out before taking anyone in in the next 15-25 years. the only exception from this would be one of the city states like monacco, andorra etc, switzerland and possibly, once they sorted themselves out, the balkans(however no earlier than in 10 years i assume).
10=2
 
ohthedrama747
Posts: 244
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Mon Jul 09, 2007 3:50 am

Quoting EELonghorn (Reply 2):
What is the complete list of states in the EU in the order they joined?

According to Wikipedia:

1957 - Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands

1973 - Denmark, Ireland, UK

1981 - Greece

1986 - Portugal, Spain

1995 - Austria, Sweden, Finland

2004 - Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovenia, Slovakia

2007 - Bulgaria, Romania

Total of 27 states. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union#European_Community

[Edited 2007-07-08 20:51:54]
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1428
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
think it's Germany

I don't think it is any particular state and it shouldn't be that way either.
The leading state is that who can get the most support from the other states for a given problem and solution.
This is the way it is and rightly so because it is the democratic way.

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
I would like to have President of the EU coming from Germany.

I would like to have the ability to choose myself who is the chairman of the commission, something that is really lacking these days and also one of the mayor points why there is so much hostility towards the EU among its citizens.
Personally I would be reluctant to vote for any politician from the big 4 (D/F/I/UK) nations as their influence is already very big.

A good way for electing a chairman of the commission would be if you can only vote for a politician from the other countries.
for example a German cannot vote for let's say Frau Merkel but could vote for ex. T Blair.
This would create a good power balance in the EU leadership as the bigger countries would not dominate automatically.


Personally I would go for the current Portuguese chairman, Barosso or maybe Blair, he wouldn't be bad either.
[edit post]
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
President of the EU

Does the EU really need yet another useless position with questionable mandate?
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3661
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 5):
A good way for electing a chairman of the commission would be if you can only vote for a politician from the other countries.
for example a German cannot vote for let's say Frau Merkel but could vote for ex. T Blair.

This reminds me TOO much of the Eurovision Songfestival, we will end up with all small eastern european countries voting for their neighbors and get some homophobic Polish president  scared 
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
I think it's Germany because it's big and is the only one able to lead the EU.
I think German people isn't perfect, but is the only one able to lead integration process.
I think Germany is one of the best int he world and can lead European integration process in a very good way.
I would like to have President of the EU coming from Germany.

-
Since the days of the Montan-Union and the EEC, it was rather France which lead the E.U., which is bad as France is a centralist country with a meagre understanding for federalism and federalist structures. The advantage of the "widening" of the EU is that A) the centre has moved eastwards from the Amsterdam-Brussels-Paris line to a Stockholm-Berlin-Prague-Budapest-Milan line and B) that France no longer can virtually control the organisation as "La Grande Nation" did for decades in the past.
-

Quoting Ajd1992 (Reply 1):
I think it's England because I'm English

Is England in Europe ?  Yeah sure  Confused
-
 
Klaus
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Since the days of the Montan-Union and the EEC, it was rather France which lead the E.U., which is bad as France is a centralist country with a meagre understanding for federalism and federalist structures.

France is actively participating in the EU, so they've got noticeable influence. But they're also living with the fact that they have to convince the others of their ideas. And like everybody else they don't always succeed with that. In many cases, smaller countries who are participating actively have a disproportionally large influence on the development of the EU.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
Is England in Europe ?

Sure. Where else?
 
OHLHD
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):

Obviously you do not understand the idea of the European Union.

No European country will put themselves below another one!

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 7):
This reminds me TOO much of the Eurovision Songfestival, we will end up with all small eastern european countries voting for their neighbors and get some homophobic Polish president

Very well said!
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:24 am

I think Politically the Lead belogs to the Germany-France couple.
Economically well just look at the GNP figures and some prospective data, and couple it with Demographics.
From an influence point of view, it looks like the more recent members try to exert an influence out of range with their actual clout. See that country with a red and white flag?...

From my vantage point, the structure looks like those adolescents who grow taller too quickly around 12 to 14 years old...
The experts in Brussels mistook precipitation for speed.
Take off and live
 
Joni
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:54 am

I think Germany is currently easily the leading state, as amply witnessed by Merkel's brilliant diplomacy to achieve the deal on the "new treaty" that will allow the EU to rid itself of most of the unwieldy gridlock situations it found itself in under the previous rules where every country had a veto on most things.

The new rules will allow the EU to pull itself together much better, which will permit it to take decisions and improve the life of it's citizens without a Britain, Czech Republic, Italy or Poland ruining everything to milk one last drop of agricultural subsidies.
 
Banco
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 12):
a Britain, Czech Republic, Italy or Poland ruining everything to milk one last drop of agricultural subsidies.

Agricultural subsidies? Britain? Are you joking?! It's Britain that tries to reform the CAP and it's your heroes in Germany and France who block it.  Yeah sure
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Klaus
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 13):
Agricultural subsidies? Britain? Are you joking?! It's Britain that tries to reform the CAP and it's your heroes in Germany and France who block it.

Blocking what, exactly? The CAP has served its purpose and is being drawn down progressively... the only question is how quickly, exactly, not if or when.
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1428
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 12):
The new rules will allow the EU to pull itself together much better, which will permit it to take decisions and improve the life of it's citizens without a Britain, Czech Republic, Italy or Poland ruining everything to milk one last drop of agricultural subsidies

Sorry but that's totally not true.
France is by far the largest beneficiary for EU agricultural subsidies.
Agriculture is IMHO also one of the, if not the most important things that need to change asap, it takes up a disproportional part of the EU budget.

You can put questions as to how the UK (and some other member-states) deals with the EU issue but blaming them for benefiting too much from agricultural subsidies is everything but true.
[edit post]
 
Banco
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
The CAP has served its purpose and is being drawn down progressively... the only question is how quickly, exactly, not if or when.

Being drawn down progressively? You must be joking! CAP spending is going UP, not down! It'll be another two years before it levels off, and even when it is reduced by the huge (oh, the pain, the pain, the pain) amount of 5% it'll take up 40% of the total budget! Fabulous for France, who gets the biggest chunk of the pie. Quite nice for Germany, Spain and Italy too.

Odd that they don't like it when countries like Britain point out that you've pissed away half the budget on 2% of the total economic output. And they say things like Britain should give up the rebate  Yeah sure
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
Being drawn down progressively? You must be joking! CAP spending is going UP, not down! It'll be another two years before it levels off, and even when it is reduced by the huge (oh, the pain, the pain, the pain) amount of 5% it'll take up 40% of the total budget! Fabulous for France, who gets the biggest chunk of the pie. Quite nice for Germany, Spain and Italy too.

a) France still contributes more than they get back.

b) The portion of the EU budget going into the CAP has been shrinking substantially.

c) By proportion to the substantially increased size of the Union, the CAP volume is shrinking, despite significant needs of the sometimes severely underdeveloped regions in the new members which can't grow out of poverty on their own.

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
Odd that they don't like it when countries like Britain point out that you've pissed away half the budget on 2% of the total economic output.

The entire food-related sector of our economies is much larger than that.

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
And they say things like Britain should give up the rebate

The rebate is a special favour which nobody else is getting. It's simply unfair, and with every new member of the Union it gets more untenable.

If there are indeed imbalances which need to be addressed, they need to be coupled with the actual issues, not be a perennial bonus limited to a single country as a result of blackmail decades ago.
 
matt727
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:06 am

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 5):
I don't think it is any particular state and it shouldn't be that way either.
The leading state is that who can get the most support from the other states for a given problem and solution.
This is the way it is and rightly so because it is the democratic way.

 checkmark 
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
a) France still contributes more than they get back.

a) France still does better than any other "wealthy" EU nation.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
b) The portion of the EU budget going into the CAP has been shrinking substantially.

b) A nice bit of spin there. The EC has been adopting all sorts of ruses to try increase its revenue. The proportion of the EU budget is completely irrelevant, given that as it increases, the size of the agriculture industry doesn't. The CAP budget has been rising each year.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
c) By proportion to the substantially increased size of the Union, the CAP volume is shrinking, despite significant needs of the sometimes severely underdeveloped regions in the new members which can't grow out of poverty on their own.

Yes. And why? Because the likes of France, Germany. Spain and Italy point-blank refused to give up any of their lovely lolly.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
The entire food-related sector of our economies is much larger than that.

Completely irrelevant. The food-related sector of our economies doesn't get the subsidies. Agriculture does.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 17):
The rebate is a special favour which nobody else is getting. It's simply unfair, and with every new member of the Union it gets more untenable.

It wasn't at the time it was instituted, because without it, Britain, the so-called "sick man" of Europe would have been paying the highest contributions of any nation - subsidising the wealthier countries like Germany and France. Now, it IS unfairbut no more unfair than Britain (again) becoming overnight the single biggest contributor to the EU budget, for the EU to piss away against the wall in their usual incompetent manner. Let's get one thing abundantly clear here: If the EU wants Britain to suddenly become the organisation's paymaster, then you'd better start listening when they want to have a really major voice on how you spend it.

That's why no deal was reached, the rest of the EU wanted the rebate removed, AND for Britain's objections on the budget ignored. No dice. Choose which it is.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:03 am

It's probably freezing in hell but Banco provided the biggest reason why we need the UK in the EU. Without them we will have a even harder time to get rid of those tax money waste called CAP. At least is wasn't expanded with the expansion in 2004 and 2007.

pelican
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:36 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 7):
all small eastern european countries voting for their neighbors and get some homophobic Polish president

while all the small western countries voting for their neighbors and get some coward, defeatist French president?
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:08 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 21):
some coward, defeatist French president

WHO is that ?  Confused
 
Arniepie
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:29 pm

Now there is a good opportunity for all other EU member-states to show that France is not the leading nation in the EU,
they just announced that, for the umptiest time, they will not get there budget in order and again won't achieve the max. 3% budget deficit.
All other members should now force France (Italy and Greece too BTW) to not exceed the 3% norm again and finally show budgetary responsibility.

I hope it happens but won't hold my breath.
[edit post]
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:34 pm

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 23):
Now there is a good opportunity for all other EU member-states to show that France is not the leading nation in the EU,
they just announced that, for the umptiest time, they will not get there budget in order and again won't achieve the max. 3% budget deficit.

You're out of date. France has already been forced by the other EU governments to retract that request today.

Quite possible that Sarkozy simply wanted external pressure to be the official reason for hard budget decisions he'd been planning to make anyway. It wouldn't be totally unheard of to transfer the "blame" to the EU.
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1428
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:00 pm

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:04 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 24):
You're out of date. France has already been forced by the other EU governments to retract that request today.

Now I'm truly amazed.

Maybe you're right with your reasoning as to why France asked this in the first place.
[edit post]
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:42 pm

She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
It wasn't at the time it was instituted, because without it, Britain, the so-called "sick man" of Europe would have been paying the highest contributions of any nation - subsidising the wealthier countries like Germany and France. Now, it IS unfairbut no more unfair than Britain (again) becoming overnight the single biggest contributor to the EU budget, for the EU to piss away against the wall in their usual incompetent manner. Let's get one thing abundantly clear here: If the EU wants Britain to suddenly become the organisation's paymaster, then you'd better start listening when they want to have a really major voice on how you spend it.



Quoting Pelican (Reply 20):
It's probably freezing in hell but Banco provided the biggest reason why we need the UK in the EU. Without them we will have a even harder time to get rid of those tax money waste called CAP.

Thank goodness some people have been paying attention. This whole nonsense about the UK "cherry-picking" in the EU is something I find quite unbelievable. Are we really expected to bow down and accept every single proposal and continue to be one of the largest net contributors? Talk about taking the whotsit...

Quoting Banco (Reply 13):
Agricultural subsidies? Britain? Are you joking?! It's Britain that tries to reform the CAP

Exactly. Are we all talking about the same CAP and the same EU?  Smile
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 27):
gricultural subsidies? Britain? Are you joking?! It's Britain that tries to reform the CAP

Exactly. Are we all talking about the same CAP and the same EU? Smile

Actually, if I'm talking to my neighbours ( who are mostly family farmers, this means they own e.g. a few acres of land and maybe 20-30 cows), they say that the CAP subsidies are mostly going to the big time industrial type farmers, not the small ones, who would need them.
Take the region I'm living in, the Hunsrueck hills: Traditionally agriculture here consisted of cattle breeding and forestry. Only since the EU subsidies, farmers started converting their grazing fields into grain fields, even if the land is not really suited to it and needs massive fertilizing to be used as such. It goes so far that at least one farmer I know built himself a huge biogas plant, completely from subsedies, and now only plants maize (corn for the Americans) on his fields to fed the plant. Since he doesn't rotate the crops anymore, he has to use huge amounts of artificial fertilizer and pestizides, all paid for by subsidies. His machinery gets bigger and bigger. crazy  The smalltime farmers actually blame the subsidies for destroying the local farming culture.

Also, a colleague of mine is a part time wine maker and owns several vinyards in the Moselle valley. His pride is that his wine, while small in quantity, is made to the highest quality standards, purelely ecological (the guy is very green in the political sense), but AFAIK he doesn't receive any subsidies, which instead go to the manufacturers of cheap, mass produced wine.


Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 28):
they say that the CAP subsidies are mostly going to the big time industrial type farmers, not the small ones, who would need them.

Which does tend to remove the justification for it, doesn't it? The oft-quoted reasoning is to take a non-economic perspective and preserve rural life. And yet, British farming is and has been for many years highly intensive (lack of land for start!) and industrial in nature, yet they do spectacularly badly out of the CAP.

Trouble is, few people are experts, but I know that I live in a rural area, and the farmers despise it because it effectively handicaps them when they are more efficient. They'd like all subsidies across the EU abolished, then they'd thrive - presumably putting lots of French farmers out of business.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:24 pm

Banco,

If you know farmers, you probably know that most are not very educated outside their field and are, like most factiry workers, tabloid readers. They also tend to be quite conservative and are often the voter base for conservative parties.
They tend to fall for buzz words, and small time farmers are often put forward in ralleys for subsidies by the big, industrial farmers. The fact is that the way the subsidies are used today, is NOT helping the smal family business farmers, but going mostly to the big ones. In Britain you are lucky that by law the government has to publish to whom EU subsidies are being paid. In Germany the lobby of the big industrial farmers has so far prevented the publication of such a list, claiming that it would disclose confidential business information, though parts have leaked out. Did you know for instance that the huge RWE electricty and infrastructure corporation (they also owned / own Thames Water), which regularly posts record profits and has a quasi monopoly on electricity and natural gas supply in most of the Western part of Germany, receives millions in CAP subsidies?
Don't ask me how they got it.
I just know that if the list would ever get published, there would be a major outcry by both the general population, who pays for the subsidies with their tax money and the small time farmers, who don't receive anything or very little.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:29 pm

Which Is The Leading State In The EU
Stupid me, I thought they were all still independent countries in their own rights with their own soverign governments and such. From the sound of this thread it will remain so for a long long time. Either that or you all will be fighting among yourselves again.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
Did you know for instance that the huge RWE electricty and infrastructure corporation (they also owned / own Thames Water), which regularly posts record profits and has a quasi monopoly on electricity and natural gas supply in most of the Western part of Germany, receives millions in CAP subsidies?

No, I didn't know, but I'm not really surprised. It's things like this that do tend to re-inforce the strongly negative image the British have of the EU. There's so much waste and corruption, and every time someone in Brussels tries to blow the whistle, they get sacked, marched off the premises and then taken to court to shut them up. So when you have the British argument over the rebate, it does essentially come down to not wanting to give a penny more to an organisation that is either rampantly corrupt, or unbelievably incompetent - and probably both. And then we have the gravy train of Commission and Parliament. All the officials have a vested interest in not clearing it up, because then they lose their own perks. And yet the EC constantly demands more money, and the hardest thing to understand is that a government like your own - which you would think would have a vested interest in the EU's financial probity, doesn't seem to care. It can't possibly be that the British government is the only one that is bothered, surely?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:22 am

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 31):
Which Is The Leading State In The EU
Stupid me, I thought they were all still independent countries in their own rights with their own soverign governments and such. From the sound of this thread it will remain so for a long long time. Either that or you all will be fighting among yourselves again.

 biggrin  Right on RJ! The EU is now like an extended Family with many estranged members. Again, they thought the more the merrier, however they should have built stronger foundations to scale. They did not.
Actually if you look at the period around/before the Rome treaty, the politicos were more careful than later: they first instituted the Coal and Steel Union, some kind of economic embryo, and then took it step by step.

And then this: a collection of states with as many national interests. And waste.
Take off and live
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
And yet the EC constantly demands more money, and the hardest thing to understand is that a government like your own - which you would think would have a vested interest in the EU's financial probity, doesn't seem to care. It can't possibly be that the British government is the only one that is bothered, surely?

For the conservative party CDU and even more for the Bavarian CSU, the farmers are their base of voters. The small time farmers get suckered by the lobby organisation into believing that if they fight for the subsidies, they will profit from them. But a small time farmer, who really needs the money, will only get a few thousand at most, while the lion's share of the subsidies goes to large corporations, who really run the lobby organisation.
For instance, why are lorries owned by dairy product factories in Germany allowed to use green number plates (which are intended for farm and construction machinery like tractors, which only use the roads to go from one field to the other and are tax exempt, they are also allowed to use tax reduced red diesel)? Mueller Milk is a huge industrial company, same a Hochland. They can easily afford to pay full tax.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 28):
he doesn't receive any subsidies, which instead go to the manufacturers of cheap, mass produced wine.

And there you have the key issue of the CAP, as far as I am concerned: it was created far in the past when food was actually scarce(r than today) to increase agricultural production, at almost any cost. These days, we have an abundance of food but the CAP continues as always with very few changes made to it. These subsidies need to go faster than most others.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 33):
The EU is now like an extended Family with many estranged members. Again, they thought the more the merrier, however they should have built stronger foundations to scale. They did not.

And now guess who's fighting exactly those stronger foundations tooth and nail? Well, it's Britain, at the same time fiercely behind an ever-faster enlargement without wanting to do the homework to keep it all viable.

Not that the other members didn't throw the occasional fit. But the essential distinction is the general willingness to drive the common project forwards without opting out of half the mechanisms wherever it appears to be convenient.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 35):
And there you have the key issue of the CAP, as far as I am concerned: it was created far in the past when food was actually scarce(r than today) to increase agricultural production, at almost any cost. These days, we have an abundance of food but the CAP continues as always with very few changes made to it. These subsidies need to go faster than most others.

No doubt - but reform projects take their time, especially when conducted on such a scale. It is yet another reason why we need a further strengthened parliament for better control of the commission and at the same time intensified public interest.

One of the worst consequences of both US and EU agricultural subsidies is the damage they're doing to the third world economies and their food supplies. Which is another good reason to get rid of most of them.
 
vc10
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:44 pm

From a BBC report dated december 2005 I gathered these facts , which might interest some of youby


5% of the EU's population work in agriculture, which produces just 1.6% of the EU's GDP

Between 1980 and 2003 the number of people actually working in agriculture [in the old 15 countries] halved and yet
in 2005 46% of the budget was still spent on agriculture

Between 2007 and 2014 the CAP is to be reduced, but the "Rural Developemant Fund" is to increase from 15% to 25%
of budget by 2010

France gets 22% of the CAP budget , Germany, Italy, and Spain each get between 12 and 15 %, with the UK getting
9%

80% of the CAP funds go to 20% of the farms

In the UK the sugar company Tate and Lyle was the biggest receive of CAP funds getting 186 million euros

If you like to look at the article

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4407792.stm


I accept these figures are some years out of date now, but they were there the most recent I could find, but I think it shows how a well meaning fund introduced some 45 years ago is desperatly in need of major re-think ,and in the near rather than the distant future

littlevc10
 
Banco
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
the general willingness to drive the common project forwards

"Common project"?  Yeah sure

Understand this: Britain doesn't agree with your "common project" and that's not going to change. Funnily enough, neither does the population of Europe, but you don't care about their opinion, so it doesn't matter.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
And there you have the key issue of the CAP, as far as I am concerned: it was created far in the past when food was actually scarce(r than today) to increase agricultural production, at almost any cost. These days, we have an abundance of food but the CAP continues as always with very few changes made to it. These subsidies need to go faster than most others.

No doubt - but reform projects take their time, especially when conducted on such a scale. It is yet another reason why we need a further strengthened parliament for better control of the commission and at the same time intensified public interest.

One of the worst consequences of both US and EU agricultural subsidies is the damage they're doing to the third world economies and their food supplies. Which is another good reason to get rid of most of them.



Quoting VC10 (Reply 37):
5% of the EU's population work in agriculture, which produces just 1.6% of the EU's GDP

Between 1980 and 2003 the number of people actually working in agriculture [in the old 15 countries] halved and yet
in 2005 46% of the budget was still spent on agriculture

Between 2007 and 2014 the CAP is to be reduced, but the "Rural Developemant Fund" is to increase from 15% to 25%
of budget by 2010

France gets 22% of the CAP budget , Germany, Italy, and Spain each get between 12 and 15 %, with the UK getting
9%

80% of the CAP funds go to 20% of the farms

In the UK the sugar company Tate and Lyle was the biggest receive of CAP funds getting 186 million euros

If you like to look at the article

This is exactly what I meant in my previous post. I think I read about it in the German "Spioegel" news magazine last year, only that in Germany the agrarian lobby organisation "Deutscher Bauernverband"successfully prevented the publication of such data in Germany, claiming that doing so would be publishing confidential business information.
For myself as a tax payer, I'd like to know who is receiving subsidies from my taxes.

And I think that a lot of the current EU trouble stems from the fact that subsidies were often intended to jump start an industry or help in the modernisation of one (e.g. the transition of farming in the 1950s from using horses and oxen to pull ploughs to tractors and machinery, which required an initial investment many smaller farmers were not able to produce, and the post WW2 food shortages), but many countries found it quite cozy to receive the subsidies long after their intended purpose was gone. Countries which needed the subsidies 20-40 years ago to reform their infrastructure fight to keep on receiving them, even though they don't really need them anymore, and the new EU member countries, which are now as poor as e.g. Spain and Greece were 30 years ago, need the money to get their economy jump started, but the old receivers don't want to let go.

And for especially conservative politicians, the farmers are their stock voters, so they do anything to keep them happy (same as what the socialist parties do with their clientele, the industrial workers and miners).

Jan
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Klaus
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting VC10 (Reply 37):
Between 2007 and 2014 the CAP is to be reduced, but the "Rural Developemant Fund" is to increase from 15% to 25% of budget by 2010

This part is actually one of the less problematic ones as far as I'm aware since it primarily goes into rural infrastructure which is in very bad shape in many new EU members.

Quoting Banco (Reply 38):
"Common project"?

What about the term European Union do you have trouble understanding?  eyebrow 
Rethorical question, I know.

Quoting Banco (Reply 38):
Understand this: Britain doesn't agree with your "common project" and that's not going to change. Funnily enough, neither does the population of Europe, but you don't care about their opinion, so it doesn't matter.

The european population across all nations is generally very much in favour of the idea of the EU and most of its advantages and primarily complains about real or perceived shortcomings in its realization.

There are some bizarre miscalculations which are very popular, such as the imaginary "giant bureaucracy" of the EU which is actually just about as big as the administration of a single major city, but that just illustrates the size of the information gaps which still exist today.

But you'll find relatively few people who really wanted back to the pre-EU fractured Europe with all its problems. I still haven't heard a plausible explanation why such a return would be such a good idea as its proponents constantly allege.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 33):
the Coal and Steel Union, some kind of economic embryo, and then took it step by step.
And then this: a collection of states with as many national interests. And waste.

-
The European idea is NOT about coal and steel, it is about a continent which has had two world wars INSIDE its sphere and a long and bitter division, so that the union of the countries of this continent is the point, and NOT structures. You also should imagine that Finland, Sweden, Austria and Ireland are neutral and are NOT to join a military union. But a E.U. consisting just of half a dozen partners would NOT be an E.U. but just an economic agreement. And the E.U. should and has to stay federal/federalist and not to become centralist, as centralism is NOT in demand.
-
 
David L
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):

I didn't know that but it's not a surprise.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
No doubt - but reform projects take their time, especially when conducted on such a scale.

It's not matter of taking time, it's a matter of active resistance. The problem has been there for all to see for decades and yet the CAP policies have been protected against common sense and fairness.

Quoting Banco (Reply 32):
It's things like this that do tend to re-inforce the strongly negative image the British have of the EU. There's so much waste and corruption, and every time someone in Brussels tries to blow the whistle, they get sacked, marched off the premises and then taken to court to shut them up.

And when the UK tries to do something about it, we're told to sit in the corner, stop "cherry-picking" and do as we're told.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
But the essential distinction is the general willingness to drive the common project forwards without opting out of half the mechanisms wherever it appears to be convenient.

"Half of the mechanisms"? "wherever it appears to be convenient"? In other words, we should do as we're told by the "bosses"... every single time. What happened to democracy?
 
Banco
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
What about the term European Union do you have trouble understanding?

Compared to your absolute struggle to understand "democracy", very little.  Yeah sure

Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
The european population across all nations is generally very much in favour of the idea of the EU

And yet they have this really nasty habit of rejecting it in referenda. Nevermind eh, as you keep telling us, the people are too stupid to be trusted, so instead the EU can just over-ride them and carry on with what's best for them instead.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
and most of its advantages and primarily complains about real or perceived shortcomings in its realization.

Kruschev said almost the same thing about the Soviet Union, funnily enough. I'm assuming you weren't deliberately echoing him.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
But you'll find relatively few people who really wanted back to the pre-EU fractured Europe with all its problems.

Ah. The either/or argument. Do it your way, or lets go back to WWII instead. Fantastic.

The biggest problem with the whole thing is the complete arrogance and hypocrisy of people like you who can't abide the fact that the public across much of the EU don't like your wonderful "project" and vote against it rather often. So you do everything you can to prevent them having that vote. Not by recognising and addressing their concerns but by deviously getting round them. You've even gone as far as saying it's just the same as the rejected constitution and trill your glee at the cleverness of getting it agreed, irrespective of the fact that you've just ridden roughshod over at least two countries' people who voted against it. Whether you and I disagree is beside the point; your anti-democratic, autocratic instincts are alarming.

First and foremost, I'm a democrat. You are not.
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Klaus
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting David L (Reply 42):
It's not matter of taking time, it's a matter of active resistance.

Which is exactly why it's taking quite a bit more time than it should!
Why else do you think some political processes progress at snail's pace even though they would appear so obvious at least to some?

Quoting David L (Reply 42):
And when the UK tries to do something about it, we're told to sit in the corner, stop "cherry-picking" and do as we're told.

Democracy is primarily about participation. It is not "obedience" that's lacking, it is constructive participation which is spotty, to say the least.

Quoting Banco (Reply 43):
Compared to your absolute struggle to understand "democracy", very little.

That's a bit strong coming from a country which only recently invaded another sovereign country because the Prime Minister followed the religiously inspired voices in his head in spite of better judgment all around him (somewhat mirroring a like-minded politician on the other side of the Atlantic).

The updated structure of the EU provides more democratic control than the veto-ridden stagnant one before, with more democratic influence on the actual decisions than before.

The populist and xenophobic campaigns in both France and the Netherlands were directed against the symbolic content of the constitution without ever bothering to address the issues, so the issues remained and the symbols are gone.

Quoting Banco (Reply 43):
And yet they have this really nasty habit of rejecting it in referenda.

I must have missed the referenda about the complete idea of the EU.

Quoting Banco (Reply 43):
Kruschev said almost the same thing about the Soviet Union, funnily enough. I'm assuming you weren't deliberately echoing him.

Well, we can talk again when the EU stops imposing human rights and peaceful resolution of conflicts (how horrible - Britain must opt out of that, of course!) and instead starts to muzzle and butcher its citizens as the Soviet Union did.

The EU is a free, peaceful, voluntary and democratic union of equals. The Soviet Union was a violently oppressive empire.

If that's the same in your view, you should really have your glasses checked.

Quoting Banco (Reply 43):
Ah. The either/or argument. Do it your way, or lets go back to WWII instead. Fantastic.

What have I missed? Your proposal would be a completely fractured Europe, nations competing and exploiting each others' weaknesses as always in the millenia of chaos before with the accompanying conflicts rising out of that, with just a fragile commercial free trade agreement tacked on and nothing more, would it not?

I and quite a few million others are sick and tired of the repetitions of history and are trying to build a Europe which works better than that. And I still haven't heard a good argument why that is a stupid idea - especially since it's apparently a substantial success so far.

Quoting Banco (Reply 43):
First and foremost, I'm a democrat. You are not.

Your logic is breathtaking.
 
travelin man
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
Well, we can talk again when the EU stops imposing human rights and peaceful resolution of conflicts

I must have missed all the peaceful resolutions of conflicts that the EU (as an organization) has been the lead in resolving. Maybe that is the aspiration, however.
 
Banco
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):

If that's the same in your view, you should really have your glasses checked.

If you think I was comparing the two, it's time you had your brain checked. I found the fact you used similar language and self-justifications to a Soviet dictator amusing though.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
I must have missed the referenda about the complete idea of the EU.

Did France and the Netherlands reject the Constitution or not. Did you, or did you not say that the new treaty is virtually identical?

So. The verdict of the people of France and the Netherlands has been circumvented.

So let's ask you directly this time: If the new treaty is virtually identical, then presumably you believe a new set of referenda should be held in those countries where one was held previously? If not, why not,

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
Your proposal would be a completely fractured Europe, nations competing and exploiting each others' weaknesses as always in the millenia of chaos before with the accompanying conflicts rising out of that, with just a fragile commercial free trade agreement tacked on and nothing more, would it not?

 rotfl 

Fascinating. You've even managed to dismiss my proposal before I've even made one. That's very clever indeed. It's called, playing the man, not the ball, and just shows how close-minded you are, to dismiss a proposal I haven't actually made.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Klaus
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 45):
I must have missed all the peaceful resolutions of conflicts that the EU (as an organization) has been the lead in resolving. Maybe that is the aspiration, however.

How many wars have there been within the EU since its inception? And how many between the same countries in the same period before?
 
Banco
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 47):
Quoting Travelin man (Reply 45):
I must have missed all the peaceful resolutions of conflicts that the EU (as an organization) has been the lead in resolving. Maybe that is the aspiration, however.

How many wars have there been within the EU since its inception? And how many between the same countries in the same period before?

Ah, the EU's syllogism! No wars in the last 50 years. The EU's been going 50 years. Thus, the EU is the reason for the lack of wars! Marvellous. Let's all congratulate the EU on defending Europe from the Soviet Union in the same period then, eh Travelin Man?  Wink
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travelin man
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RE: Which Is The Leading State In The EU

Wed Jul 11, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 47):
How many wars have there been within the EU since its inception? And how many between the same countries in the same period before?

Ah, you are talking about "intra-EU", rather than European or other international conflicts. After all, the Balkans blew up right under the EU's nose, and we saw how effective the EU was in dealing with that situation.

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