krisyyz
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:16 am

The Canadian Government just announced that it will acquire 6-8 new armed coastal defence ships which will be designed especially for Arctic Operations. Furthermore, a deep-sea port will be built in the Arctic in order to assert Canadian sovereignty in the North. Although I'm not a big fan of Mr. Harper, I applaud him for his recent defence initiatives. The Arctic is one of Canada's greatest resources, and our Forces must have the proper equipment to protect it. Mr. Harper also stated that there would be more announcements to come in relation to beefing-up Canada's military in order to enhance coastal defence.

Canada announced last week that its 12 Halifax-class Frigates will under go a vast modernization program targeting their command and control systems.

KrisYYZ
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:33 am

Pardon my ignorance, but who exactly is threatening Canada's sovereignty over its arctic territories?  eyebrow  Santa Claus and his army of elves?  santahat 
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
WestJetYQQ
Posts: 2763
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:31 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Santa Claus and his army of elves?

Actually, Yes! They've been keeping in top secret until just now though.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Pardon my ignorance, but who exactly is threatening Canada's sovereignty over its arctic territories?

Lot's of people. We got stuff they wanna steal  Wink
Will You Try to Change Things? Use the Power that you have, the Power of a Million new Ideas.
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
The Canadian Government just announced that it will acquire 6-8 new armed coastal defence ships which will be designed especially for Arctic Operations.

Tell Mr. Harper to get some vessels that work, unlike those submarines.  Wink
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12389
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:43 am

Why the worry? I suspect that it includes protection of the environment, protection of native peoples, access to critical resources as well as fishing grounds that they claim as in their exclusive territorial control and for their fleets. Gotta keep those Russian and Chinese factory fishing ships from taking all the fish and destroying the grounds.
 
jamincan
Posts: 572
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Pardon my ignorance, but who exactly is threatening Canada's sovereignty over its arctic territories?    Santa Claus and his army of elves?   

In all seriousness, there are a few concerns about Arctic sovereignty. Denmark and Canada are currently in conflict over Hans Island. Interestingly, Denmark is equipped to navigate the ice-bound waters of that area, while Canada is unable to. The other important issue is the Northwest Passage. As the arctic ice retreats, it will eventually become a lucrative shortcut between Europe and Asia. Canada claims sovereignty over the area, but is unable to enforce it, and other countries, most notably the US, contend that it is international water.
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3568
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:47 am

Pardon my ignorance, but who exactly is threatening Canada's sovereignty over its arctic territories?

Harp seal insurgents?
Ain't I a stinker?
 
krisyyz
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Santa Claus and his army of elves?

YES! I knew he was real !

but seriously, Denmark, USA and a handful of other countries have downplayed Canada's right to certain parts of the Arctic territories. Given the important passages and natural resources, Canada must move on this issue before it's too late.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 3):
Tell Mr. Harper to get some vessels that work, unlike those submarines

Well, to be fair, Mr. Harper didn't have any part in that mess. It was my beloved Liberals who managed to buy those non-waterproof submarines.


Some more info on the announcement:
http://www.pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?category=1&id=1742

KrisYYZ
 
gkirk
Posts: 23346
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
Canada announced last week that its 12 Halifax-class Frigates will under go a vast modernization program targeting their command and control systems.

I would hope so:

 duck 
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1429
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:00 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 5):
As the arctic ice retreats, it will eventually become a lucrative shortcut between Europe and Asia. Canada claims sovereignty over the area, but is unable to enforce it, and other countries, most notably the US, contend that it is international water.

Aren't the predictions so that the North pole will be entirely ice-free during summertime?
If so I don't see how Canada's 12 mile zone would make any difference, enough room to sail around it.
[edit post]
 
krisyyz
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:04 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 8):

Funny that you should use that pic:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UlUUwgkdDdo

KrisYYZ
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12389
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 10):

I saw a part of that video and would note that Canada is and has been an important part of world security for years. If I am correct, about 10 or so Canadian soldiers have lost their lives in Afganistan in the last month or so showing their bravery and commitment.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 7):
Denmark, USA and a handful of other countries have downplayed Canada's right to certain parts of the Arctic territories.

I don't know about the "handful of other countries" (including Russia and China as mentioned in reply #4?), but Denmark and the US should be quite easy to convince of a compromise/solution without a need for military investments. What do you in Canada reckon?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):
I don't know about the "handful of other countries" (including Russia and China as mentioned in reply #4?), but Denmark and the US should be quite easy to convince of a compromise/solution without a need for military investments. What do you in Canada reckon?

Speak softly and carry a big stick. No country can effectively claim sovereignty over a region if it doesn't have the means to at least try to enforce it. The U.S. (and others) have challenged Canada's Arctic sovereignty claim for decades, and I doubt that a negotiation from a position of abject weakness would accomplish much for Canada.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
WrenchBender
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:59 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):
What do you in Canada reckon?

I have lived and worked in tha Arctic as a member of the Canadian Forces.
Canada's commitment to it's own sovereignty for the years 1998-2001 (the years I was there)
Yukon Territory, 3 personnel at Yukon Cadet Camp.
North West Territory, approx 100 personnel in Yellowknife (JTFNA) including- 440 Sqn (Twin Otters 4 aircraft), 1 CRPG supports a total of 59 patrols in the Yukon, the Northwest Territories, Nunavut, and Northern British Colombia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba.
Nunavut Territory, approx 50 personnel at Alert.
If available, from the MP squadrons in the south, 1 possibly 2 NorPat's a year.
Naval presence zero.
It is only recently, within the last 2-3 years that the government started listening to the commanders we had up there. Since the realization of resource recovery in the north, the governments of the Territories have also been applying pressure for an increase in presence and capabilities for our military in the North.
It is about time a real time commitment to Canada's Arctic Sovereignty is made by the federal government.

WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
 
lh477
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 11:23 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:46 am

From my understanding, Many countries including the US is claiming international rights are within Canadian waters, between islands such as Baffin and Ellesmere, etc. Canada claims these waterways as Inland Canadian waterways. Canada has no problems with granting passage rights, but would want to limit traffic to protect the environment.

Come on you gunners......!!!!!
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4275
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
Although I'm not a big fan of Mr. Harper, I applaud him for his recent defence initiatives.

 checkmark 

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
Mr. Harper also stated that there would be more announcements to come in relation to beefing-up Canada's military in order to enhance coastal defence.

Retrofitting the frigates was a great start. Let's just hope that subsequent governments don't do anything stupid to these plans or indeed to shut out new ones.

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 5):
other countries, most notably the US, contend that it is international water.

The US can lick my balls. What's ours is ours and I'm sick of the way the US keeps asserting itself abroad for no reason. We're obviously going to give the US and its military full passage rights so why the bloody big song and dance. Assholes.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):
I don't know about the "handful of other countries" (including Russia and China as mentioned in reply #4?), but Denmark and the US should be quite easy to convince of a compromise/solution without a need for military investments.

I don't know those Danes can be pesky  Wink As for the US Even if we convince the ruling party of something the other half of the (presently very polarized) country might not stand for it.

YOWza
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3133
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:26 am

In many ways it's good to see Canada defending its northern regions, but I can't help but think that seeing as the north is where climate change is felt the most, a bunch of military boats etc probably isn't going to help the environmental problems all that much...


CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
pbottenb
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:23 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 16):
The US can lick my balls. What's ours is ours and I'm sick of the way the US keeps asserting itself abroad for no reason. We're obviously going to give the US and its military full passage rights so why the bloody big song and dance. Assholes.

Wow - you live in a country that is adjacent to the US and our meddling ways, and yet your country feels no need to defend your 2000+ mile border against us. Could it be perhaps that we are not in fact so meddlesome in your country's affairs? Sounds to me that comparative to other countries that exist in the world, the US is actually a pretty good neighbor...yet you call us all assholes...

nice

edited for spelling

[Edited 2007-07-10 03:25:16]
 
misbeehavin
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:49 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Pardon my ignorance, but who exactly is threatening Canada's sovereignty over its arctic territories? Santa Claus and his army of elves?

Oh no. It's the damn penguins!
 
n710ps
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:09 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 16):
The US can lick my balls. What's ours is ours and I'm sick of the way the US keeps asserting itself abroad for no reason. We're obviously going to give the US and its military full passage rights so why the bloody big song and dance. Assholes.

Big words for someone whos milatary would struggle to defend themselves from a fock of pidgons with a bad case og belly rumbles. Your statement was uncalled for. Grow up. It is all about who wants to spend how much money to make what happen. Give it a rest, grow up and take a hint. The Danes are a bigger issue I would bet than us down south becuase unlike other nations with neighbors soo close we actually support you guys and are open as well. Your ego is the size of the landmass but unfortuneately the sense equals the population with the way you remark on the USA.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4275
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 18):

Wow - you live in a country that is adjacent to the US and our meddling ways, and yet your country feels no need to defend your 2000+ mile border against us. Could it be perhaps that we are not in fact so meddlesome in your country's affairs? Sounds to me that comparative to other countries that exist in the world, the US is actually a pretty good neighbor...yet you call us all assholes...

Pbottenb, let me clarify I was just vocalizing the fact that the US does assert itself (maybe a little too much) overseas and in this particular instance that there was no need for it. Particularly due to the aligned interests our countries share and the dependence that many industries within Canada have on the US. So what I was trying to say was that the bellyaching was asshole-ish behaviour. It was not by any means a direct attack on the core values of what it means to be American, or America itself. Yes, you guys are a good neighbour and I appreciate that. If you guys weren't there we might actually have to spend some money on our armed forces  Wink

Quoting N710PS (Reply 20):
Big words for someone whos milatary would struggle to defend themselves from a fock of pidgons with a bad case og belly rumbles.

Trying to get at me by insulting the admittedly feeble capabilities of my country's armed forces that is simply not going to work.

Quoting N710PS (Reply 20):
It is all about who wants to spend how much money to make what happen.

Ummm, I'm not sure I know what are you talking about?

Quoting N710PS (Reply 20):
Your ego is the size of the landmass but unfortuneately the sense equals the population with the way you remark on the USA.

Sorry bud, that doesn't make any sense.

YOWza
 
n710ps
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:09 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting YOWza (Reply 21):

Everything in this world is commodity and moolah. Throw enough moolah at a nation and you can get anything you want. I was stateing otherwise that your national ego is the size of your nations landmass but that the contents are small like the population of your nation. In other words do not run your mouth when there is little to back it up. Canada is a fine land but some of the population is just a little too cocky for their own good. In other words do not bite the hand that feeds you because the US is your best freind.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:41 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
note that Canada is and has been an important part of world security for years

Thanks in no small part to the troops Canada sent to Vietnam.

Signed,

Ann Coulter

Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 19):
Oh no. It's the damn penguins!

Penguins are native to the Antarctic and other areas of the southern hemisphere. There are no penguins in the Arctic.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):
don't know about the "handful of other countries" (including Russia and China as mentioned in reply #4?), but Denmark and the US should be quite easy to convince of a compromise/solution without a need for military investments. What do you in Canada reckon?

The US says that since Canada doesn't have defence forces in the North, and other than the small native population, has very few people living up there, how can it claim it. Basically, the US doesn't want to own it, just control it.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 18):
Sounds to me that comparative to other countries that exist in the world, the US is actually a pretty good neighbor...yet you call us all assholes...

Actually, as an American living in Canada, I can categorically say that the US, while peaceful and relatively benign towards Canada's existence to its north, is not a very nice neighbour. The US constantly abuses its power in situations, knowing that Canada has so much reliance on trade with the US, that Canada can really never do anything too serious to rebut. Basically, it's a cut-your-nose-despite-your-face situation. For instance, the lumber tariff dispute. Canada, in a decision upheld by NAFTA, claims the US owes us USD5 Billion in unpaid, illegal trade tariffs levied by the US on Canadian lumber imports. The US refuses to pay Canada, saying it was justified in levying tariffs. However, what can Canada REALLY do, since any attempts to level the playing field would be met with tit-for-tat trade embargoes that would eventually lead to Canada having to give in.

I'm not saying Canada is helpless in it's relationship with the US. In fact, Canada is still the US's largest trading partner and a (hypothetical) all-out trade war between the two countries would seriously hurt the US, but it would hurt Canada more, and the US knows this and throws its weight around accordingly.

Americans all are told "Canada is our best friend", but I don't think a lot of Canadians feel the same anymore. Canadians feel that the US government doesn't respect them anymore, and I can't say I blame them.

While I am generally a pacifist, I can say I agree with this move by the Harper government. Canada needs to assert itself in the north. The Arctic is one of Canada's great natural resources and I'd hate to see Canada lose any bit of that sovereignty.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
Quoting Aloges (Reply 12):I don't know about the "handful of other countries" (including Russia and China as mentioned in reply #4?), but Denmark and the US should be quite easy to convince of a compromise/solution without a need for military investments. What do you in Canada reckon?

Speak softly and carry a big stick. No country can effectively claim sovereignty over a region if it doesn't have the means to at least try to enforce it. The U.S. (and others) have challenged Canada's Arctic sovereignty claim for decades, and I doubt that a negotiation from a position of abject weakness would accomplish much for Canada.

Canada is right to take this course. All they are doing is reminding the rest of the world of their claims to those waters.

The US actively challenges what we consider to be excessive maritime claims through our freedom of navigation program. What's the difference?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:27 pm

Quoting N710PS (Reply 22):
Canada is a fine land but some of the population is just a little too cocky for their own good.

Wait a sec. Does anyone else here find it extremely funny that an AMERICAN is criticizing that another nationality is too "cocky for their own good"?

Pot, meet kettle! Yes, SOME Canadians can have a pre-occupation of avoiding anything deemed too American and that somehow almost anything American is inferior and that Canada should work to avoid anything American as if it were some plague that would eventually consume Canada. In fact, I find a lot of what Canada deems "American-style", especially in politics, is already practised to some extent or another. On the same hand, it's rather ignorant to paint Canadians all as one in the same way it's ignorant to see Americans as one way, based on a perceived notion. However, when I see attitudes like yours, I start to not blame them so much for doing so. And reminds me even more so how, while some things American are fine, at the end of the day, I'm glad Canada is a separate country.

LH423

P.S. N710PS, PLEASE, for the LOVE OF GOD, slow down when you type and use your spellchecker. Some parts of your posts are almost illegible because of spelling and grammatical errors.
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4275
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:35 pm

Quoting N710PS (Reply 22):
Everything in this world is commodity and moolah.



Quoting N710PS (Reply 22):
Throw enough moolah at a nation and you can get anything you want.

Thinking like that is mighty dangerous. Money is by no means the solution to the many hairy problems countries today face. Money-minded thinking and the notion that allegiance can bought have proven disastrous to the US. You know the US used to give money and arms to Osama, oh and Saddam and a host of other undesirable people. That didn't turn out so well did it?

Quoting N710PS (Reply 22):
I was stateing otherwise that your national ego is the size of your nations landmass but that the contents are small like the population of your nation.

hahahahahahah hahahahahaha hahahah thanks for that. I needed a good laugh. Canada's 'national ego' has a tiny footprint. We leave arrogance and brashness to others. Don't believe me? Start a couple polls on this forum:
"Are Canadians more egotistical than Americans?" and "Are Americans smarter than Canadian?" You might just be a little surprised at the results.

Quoting N710PS (Reply 22):
In other words do not bite the hand that feeds you because the US is your best freind.

The hand that feeds me is a multi-million dollar Canadian corporation with clients all over the world, not uncle Sam.

YOWza
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 27):
Start a couple polls on this forum:
"Are Canadians more egotistical than Americans?" and "Are Americans smarter than Canadian?" You might just be a little surprised at the results.

Actually, I think Canadians might be surprised.

I think the average Canadian is no smarter than the average American. I would say that Canadians are slightly less ignorant than most Americans, but I think that has to do with numbers. The US, as we know, is a huge country. In terms of population, they're behind only China and India. In terms of land mass, they're behind only Russia, Canada, and China (when you factor in water, the US is bigger). Canada is more of an urban nation. The US is often painted as being a country full of ignorant people because so many people come from remote farming communities where knowledge of the outside world really isn't a necessity. I'm not justifying it, but that's the way it is. I will say, while many Canadians have some SERIOUS misconceptions of the US, Americans tend to be more ignorant of Canada.

On the same level, many Americans, quite stupidly (no pun intended), go on about how great the US is while not having travelled extensively outside its borders. And Americans are much louder at displaying their love for their country. However, Canadians are quite egotistical, in their own way. I've met a few Canadians that outwardly have a disgust for the US and anything it stands for. I've heard the ignorant "Canada sucks" from the occasional American but that's usually just some ignoramous (sp?) who's never even been there talking. But none of that has compared to some of the virulent anti-Americanism I've talked to people about. I would definitely not agree that Canadians are really any less egotistical than Americans, they're just a lot quieter about it and generally go about with a smug satisfaction that they're not Americans.

However, this is SERIOUSLY off topic so I don't think we should get much farther into this debate. I will say this. Every country has a healthy rivalry with someone else (UK and France, everyone and Germany, Australia and New Zealand), usually a neighbour. I think Canada and the US always have, always will, and always should have a spirited rivalry between us. At the end of the day, the US is more like Canada than any other nation, and Canada is more like the US than any other nation, as much as we mutually don't like to admit it. I think both countries suffer from ignorance about each other and that's where things get nasty. I think Americans see Canada as some back water country that really offers no contribution to the world and Canadians base too much of their opinions off of how the American government works and then paint Americans as such. It's a nasty cycle but I'm doing my hardest to try and change the opinions that Americans have about Canada, and vice versa.

LH423

[Edited 2007-07-10 06:01:37]
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
User avatar
yowza
Posts: 4275
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:04 pm

Quoting LH423 (Reply 28):
I think the average Canadian is ... versa.

Nicely said, I would agree with a good amount of that. I got dragged into this debate by another poster with less balanced views, I should have known better, cheers LH.

YOWza
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:07 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 27):
"Are Americans smarter than Canadian?" You might just be a little surprised at the results.

Woah easy there bud. Many of my classmates are Canadian and while a lot of them were smart with the materials (which makes sense since getting into medical school is harder there), when it came down to general knowledge or common sense, it was all about the same.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
n710ps
Posts: 1117
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:09 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:39 pm

LH my apologies on gramatics and spelling. You are correct that I was rushing though.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
MCIGuy
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:15 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:43 pm

I won't argue that the CA/US relationship isn't in our best interest. Let's be realistic however, if a major force came over the pole, Canada would be little more than a speed bump on the way to the US. Again, it's in our mutual best interest to not let that happen, so we do need each other, for more than just trade.  Smile
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
pbottenb
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 21):
Pbottenb, let me clarify I was just vocalizing the fact that the US does assert itself (maybe a little too much) overseas and in this particular instance that there was no need for it.

Ok, Fair enough. But perhaps you could do some research before you start the name calling. A simple google search produced this link:

http://cdfai.org/PDF/Charron,%20Andrea-Paper.pdf This is a white paped written by a Canadian:
The Northwest Passage Shipping Channel: Is Canada’s Sovereignty Really Floating Away? By Andrea Charron
War Studies Programme
Royal Military College of Canada

I found the following excerpt:

The Legal Status of the Northwest Passage
A brief, historic record of Canada’s sovereignty claim to the Northwest Passage is necessary to
understand the complexity of the arguments. Both the US and Canada have strong legal
arguments both of which are supported by cases from the International Court of Justice (ICJ)............
......To be stringent in analysis, one must look at both sides of the legal argument and therefore, we shall explore the American case first.

The question Canadians must ask is: are there any legal precedents that could lend support to the
US case that the Passage be designated an international strait? The answer is yes if two
conditions are met. The first is geographical and the second is usage.
If it can be demonstrated that the Passage represents a waterway, then the geographical condition
is said to have been met. A waterway “must join one area of high seas to another”.4 Since all
seven channels of the passage link Davis Strait (a high sea) to the Beaufort Strait (a high sea), the first condition is met even if two of the channels are considered too shallow for commercial
cargo vessels.5 Furthermore, the US has consistently defended the right of innocent passage
through international waters. Some examples include the US refusal to accept Libya’s claim that
the Gulf of Sidra is internal waters and, in 1986, sending the cruiser Yorkton and destroyer Caron
deep into the Black Sea “on a route that deliberately passed through the Soviet Union’s
internationally accepted twelve-mile-territorial waters” in order to prove their point that states
cannot limit the access of vessels to an international strait.6 Even during the Cold War at a time
when brinkmanship courted nuclear disaster, the US insistence on establishing the right of
innocent passage was paramount.
For the second condition, legal scholars turn to the ICJ Corfu Channel Case (United Kingdom v
Albania)7 in which a relatively small amount of international maritime traffic constituted
sufficient usage to be designated a strait. While there has been relatively little traffic through
the Passage due to the ice condition, unregulated foreign submarine could be considered amongst
the numbers.8 While Donat Pharand, Canada’s legal expert on the law of the sea, does not
believe this condition has been met to date9, should the Passage become ice-free, it is quite
possible the “use” condition will be met. Therefore, having already met the waterway condition
and with the strong likelihood of meeting the usage criteria in the future, the US is quite
confident the Passage will be designated a strait with time.

My take away from this paper is that the US has a strong argument, and may over time prove to be correct.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:25 pm

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 9):
If so I don't see how Canada's 12 mile zone would make any difference, enough room to sail around it.

The point is the Canucks want to claim greater then 12 miles, hence the issues.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 33):
My take away from this paper is that the US has a strong argument, and may over time prove to be correct.



I think you are correct in your assessment. I would go a bit farther and say that there has been a historic use of the passage for trade from the whalers in the 18th century, Grain ships are currently running into Churchill, and the sealing done by Candian boats. In addition there was the voyage of the Manhatten back in the 1960's.

So there is plenty of evidence of trade on these waters.

Now if the Canadians wanted to start a shooting war with the US, they should have done it on Dixon Enterence during the 1996 Salmon war.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Derico
Posts: 4209
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 1999 9:14 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:30 pm

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 23):
Penguins are native to the Antarctic and other areas of the southern hemisphere. There are no penguins in the Arctic.

Yes, just like there is a completely, 100% ''TOTAL BS & HYPOCRACY'' guaranteed, treaty in the Antarctic that says that nations around it cannot claim land.

Meanwhile, those same nations that are forcing the southern Antarctic rim countries to such a treaty, squabble over territorial claims in the Arctic.

Why haven't AUS, CHI, ARG and SAF moved to territorialy claim Antarctica yet? Beats me.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:39 pm

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 23):
Penguins are native to the Antarctic and other areas of the southern hemisphere. There are no penguins in the Arctic

I hate to tell you this but one turned up south of Yakutat, Alaska a couple of years ago. Paper had photos of him wandering around the deck of the seiner that caught him.

But they figured he was lost, just an unusual visitor.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 35):

Meanwhile, those same nations that are forcing the southern Antarctic rim countries to such a treaty, squabble over territorial claims in the Arctic.

I see only two countries squabble about territories up there - Denmark and Canada while the US wants to protect an international water way.

Quoting Derico (Reply 35):
Why haven't AUS, CHI, ARG and SAF moved to territorialy claim Antarctica yet? Beats me.

Maybe because they are not that greedy? But seriously, those countries are not located in the antarctic itself but on other continents. Quite a difference. Maybe the Russians should claim the Antarctic, too. They were the first who discovered the landmass or the Brits because a Brit was the first man to set a food on the new continent.

BTW You have forgotten NZ, maybe they want although some parts...

pelican
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:13 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 37):
Quoting Derico (Reply 35):

Meanwhile, those same nations that are forcing the southern Antarctic rim countries to such a treaty, squabble over territorial claims in the Arctic.

I see only two countries squabble about territories up there - Denmark and Canada while the US wants to protect an international water way.

Expect more to come. I can't find the wedsite anymore, but I read on the BBC a few weeks ago that Russia claimed a huge slice of the arctic for it's exclusive use. This will certainly be contested (e.g. by Norway)

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 36):
I hate to tell you this but one turned up south of Yakutat, Alaska a couple of years ago.

This doesn't count!

"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
WrenchBender
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:59 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 23):
Thanks in no small part to the troops Canada sent to Vietnam.

Signed,

Ann Coulter

Trying to be funny ? It's not working.
Tell it to the 110 Canadians who died in the service of YOUR country in Vietnam, or the 30,000 volunteers who joined YOUR forces.
Tell it to the 352 Military and 32 Civilians (Canadians) who where part of the ICCS Peace Keeping Mission.

WrenchBender
Silly Pilot, Tricks are for kids.......
 
CastleIsland
Posts: 3212
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 40):
Trying to be funny ? It's not working.

Anyone who knows me knows that I have the utmost respect for people who serve in the military. It was meant as a shot at Coulter, nothing more.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:57 am

Good lord, some of the jibes aimed at Canadian forces from some Americans, after another US member, who actually has a clue of what he is talking about, pointed out the Canada has troops fighting hard and losing people, in Afghanistan, where arguably the US allowed that situation to worsen after pulling their troops for that great Iraq idea.

Who are the 'ungrateful' ones now?
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 41):
It was meant as a shot at Coulter, nothing more.

That's how I read it. But cut WrenchBender a little slack. Canadians can get prickly when their military contributions over the years are trivialized, as is often the case. Hollywood war movies (e.g. The Longest Day) go out of their way to pretend Canada wasn't involved, despite being responsible for taking one of the 5 beaches (Juno). For Canada, 14,000 soldiers hit the beaches; 450 parachuted in behind German lines; the Royal Canadian Navy supplied ships and about 10,000 sailors. Lancaster bombers and Spitfire fighters from the Royal Canadian Air Force supported the invasion.

And yes, we're punching over our weight in Afghanistan at the moment. Not sure I agree with that one, given how badly botched the whole Afghan campaign is -- but we're there, and soldiers are dying.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9269
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:37 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
Pardon my ignorance, but who exactly is threatening Canada's sovereignty over its arctic territories? Santa Claus and his army of elves?

Or mighty Denmark  

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 7):
but seriously, Denmark, USA and a handful of other countries have downplayed Canada's right to certain parts of the Arctic territories.

lol! Or was it Canada that downplayed Denmark's right to certain parts of the Arctic territories?

Quoting YOWza (Reply 16):
I don't know those Danes can be pesky

Oh yes! Big grin

Well currently Denmark is trying to find out whether or not Greenland is connected to the Arctic, and if it is, well then the Arctic region is Danish territory! Muhaha! Big grin  duck 

[Edited 2007-07-10 22:43:01]
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:50 am

Too right Arrow.
No D-Day without winning the Battle Of The Atlantic, to help to do this, by 1943, the RCN was the 3rd largest in the world.
Not many big ships true, but all those Destroyers, Corvettes etc, that beat the U-Boats.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 44):
Well currently Denmark is trying to find out whether or not Greenland is connected to the Arctic, and if it is, well then the Arctic region is Danish territory! Muhaha!

I should think that the bloody big hunk of ice covering what we generally refer to as the Arctic Ocean hardly qualifies as a landmass, should I not?  Wink
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2231
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 38):
Expect more to come. I can't find the wedsite anymore, but I read on the BBC a few weeks ago that Russia claimed a huge slice of the arctic for it's exclusive use. This will certainly be contested (e.g. by Norway)

Here is an article from Canada's National Post that I read a couple of weeks ago. http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/s...8c6-4bd0-8e64-9d2f080067cc&k=78630

I would think this has some bearing on Canada's decision to improve their Artic defense. Russia may become a major issue in the future, and Canada will need something to defend their soverignty.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 3):

Yes!

Submarines are a huge menace in the north. Especially with the Russians sneaking around up there. We can put under water sonars all over the place, but that won't do anything unless we have the proper force to back our claim up.

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 5):
Denmark is equipped to navigate the ice-bound waters of that area, while Canada is unable to.

Actually, we currently have Coast Guard ice breakers patrolling the area.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 37):
I see only two countries squabble about territories up there - Denmark and Canada while the US wants to protect an international water way.

Russia and Norway are also contenders. Personally, I think the US is just acting tough to give Canada a push in the right direction.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Canada To Concentrate On Arctic Defence.

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Thread starter):
The Canadian Government just announced that it will acquire 6-8 new armed coastal defence ships which will be designed especially for Arctic Operations. Furthermore, a deep-sea port will be built in the Arctic in order to assert Canadian sovereignty in the North. Although I'm not a big fan of Mr. Harper, I applaud him for his recent defence initiatives. The Arctic is one of Canada's greatest resources, and our Forces must have the proper equipment to protect it. Mr. Harper also stated that there would be more announcements to come in relation to beefing-up Canada's military in order to enhance coastal defence.

All well and good to try to exercise control at least to some degree over our Arctic, but these vessels won't get it done. They are _certainly_ not Arctic patrol vessels, they're coastal defense vessels with a _limited_ ice capability. You will not see them anywhere near the NW Passage in Dec-Jan-Feb-Mar-Apr, global warming or not.

I'd rather have maybe 4 vessels that can actually do the job, and be based up north, not at Halifax or Esquimalt. These things strike me as USCG Deepwater boats with a somewhat thicker skin.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 3):
Tell Mr. Harper to get some vessels that work, unlike those submarines. Wink

Quite. I worked on the nuclear sub program in the 80s and, although the boats were not deep divers like the LA-class ones the USN has, they could do the patrol job pretty well and made a hell of a lot more sense than the pieces of crap we got from Britain. What a swindle ! Or, maybe, our guys had a few pints too many the night before they inspected these relics. They should be cut up into razor blades - the boats, not the men.

While were on the topic, who exactly is going to actually man these boats ? We don't have enough sailors already to keep the fleet (!) fully at the ready, and here we go adding 6 new ones, along with the 3 HBSs (Honkin' Big Ships) to permit us to deploy overseas with our kit on our own boats as opposed to chartered Russian ones. The army is going to start robbing the navy & air force of staff to convert to some kind of limited infantry role fairly soon ('re-roleing' -- I believe the US forces are doing it in Iraq already) so that multiple deployments to Afghanistan can be put off as long as possible, or at least until Harper leaves office. This conjures up a pretty grim newspaper/TV lead should the worst occur -- as it has a way of doing.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: fr8mech, seb146, speedygonzales and 13 guests