andessmf
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What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:45 pm

"President Hugo Chavez said Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize him or his government while visiting Venezuela will be expelled from the country."

"How long are we going to allow a person _ from any country in the world _ to come to our own house to say there's a dictatorship here, that the president is a tyrant, and nobody does anything about it?" Chavez asked

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/ap/20070723/twl-venezuela-chavez-1be00ca.html

Yeah, you go Chavo! How dare some suggest you are turning into a dictatorship!  sarcastic 
 
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LTU932
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:51 pm

Yet another confirmation that El Chavo del Ocho is revoking freedom of speech in Venezuela and that his de-facto dictatorship is turning into a full dictatorship.
 
Birdwatching
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:56 pm

Hugo Chavez is the best that ever happened to Venezuela! I don't live there and I don't have a clue about politics but I'm at an age when it's cool to shock your parents, so VIVA CHAVEZ! Hasta la victoria siempre!
Signed, LHStarAllaince

Seriously now, I've been to Venezuela several times in the 80s and early 90s and from my memories it was a beautiful modern country. I lived in Ecuador at that time and going to Colombia or Venezuela was like leaving the third world and entering big modern countries. It started at the border, it was like entering a whole different world. Now it's the opposite I suppose.

Soren  santahat 
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
itsjustme
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:04 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Thread starter):
"President Hugo Chavez said Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize him or his government while visiting Venezuela will be expelled from the country."

Reminiscent of when our own dictator, er, I mean Decider said, "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists".
 
andessmf
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:09 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
El Chavo del Ocho

Yes, you got it! I think that is his new nickname.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 3):
Reminiscent of when our own dictator, er, I mean Decider said, "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists".

Please, don't try to sound like Chavez. Has GWB even kicked out or suggested kicking disenters out of the country?

Please, don't derailt the thread.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:09 pm

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 2):
Hugo Chavez is the best that ever happened to Venezuela! I don't live there and I don't have a clue about politics but I'm at an age when it's cool to shock your parents, so VIVA CHAVEZ! Hasta la victoria siempre!
Signed, LHStarAllaince

You are talking the same bullshit as my uncle (who is running for the Linkspartei (leftwing political party made up out of former East German communists and renegades from the left wing of the Social Democrats) in Berlin).
Funny, I read their programme (which was forced upon me by my uncle), while it condems Stalinism, it says nothing about Leninism, so I assume that they (at least the East Germans among them) consider themselves still to be a Leninist cadre party.
BTW, being a blue collar worker myself, I would have more respect for my unlce if he was a disciplined worker, but in fact he is a lazy SOB, who dropped out of school at 17, joined the Bhagwan cult in the 70s, later, thanks to my grandparents, did an apprenticeship as a printer in his md thirties and after that managed to get himself kicked out of every job so far, mostly for picking fights with his bosses during probation period. He has been happily on the dole since about 15 years, but was lucky that he inherited a few hundred thousand Euros. He blames his unemployment on the capitalist system, but in reality is just a lazy SOB, whio's biggest horror would be to be receiving a serious job offer. His party work is there for him to think himself important. His biggest aim is to get unemployment benefits increased.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Joni
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:30 pm

This sounds like a policy of Chavez' that is difficult to understand, as is the claimed idea to change the constitution to allow him more terms. I think that if the constitution were changed to remove the limit on the number of terms a president can serve, the new rule should apply starting from to the next president, not the sitting one.
 
Scorpio
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:50 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
You are talking the same bullshit as my uncle (who is running for the Linkspartei (leftwing political party made up out of former East German communists and renegades from the left wing of the Social Democrats) in Berlin).

You do understand the concept of sarcasm, don't you?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:36 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 7):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
You are talking the same bullshit as my uncle (who is running for the Linkspartei (leftwing political party made up out of former East German communists and renegades from the left wing of the Social Democrats) in Berlin).

You do understand the concept of sarcasm, don't you?

Sorry,

I didn't read the complete text, just the first two lines (Because I assumed that it would be a continuation of the same stuff) and confused BIRDWATCHING with LHSTARALLIANCE.


Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
miamiair
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:22 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 6):
the new rule should apply starting from to the next president, not the sitting one.

And if Chavez apponts himself President for life, Venezuela is screwed, right?

Chavez clearly runs on "Do as I say, not as I do."
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
halls120
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:27 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 3):
Quoting AndesSMF (Thread starter):
"President Hugo Chavez said Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize him or his government while visiting Venezuela will be expelled from the country."

Reminiscent of when our own dictator, er, I mean Decider said, "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists".

Just when did we start deporting people who voiced disagreement with Bush?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
seb146
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 10):
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 3):
Quoting AndesSMF (Thread starter):
"President Hugo Chavez said Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize him or his government while visiting Venezuela will be expelled from the country."

Reminiscent of when our own dictator, er, I mean Decider said, "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists".

Just when did we start deporting people who voiced disagreement with Bush?

No, but Chavez sounds like he is using fear to control the people, just like Bush is using fear to control the people. Different statements, same principle.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
mdsh00
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Thread starter):



Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 2):
I lived in Ecuador at that time and going to Colombia or Venezuela was like leaving the third world and entering big modern countries. It started at the border, it was like entering a whole different world. Now it's the opposite I suppose.

I don't think so. Of course I haven't been there in the 80s and 90s but recently when I went there, there were parts that definitely still looked third world, especially for the amount of oil that the country has.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
halls120
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 11):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 10):
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 3):
Quoting AndesSMF (Thread starter):
"President Hugo Chavez said Sunday that foreigners who publicly criticize him or his government while visiting Venezuela will be expelled from the country."

Reminiscent of when our own dictator, er, I mean Decider said, "You're either with us or you're with the terrorists".

Just when did we start deporting people who voiced disagreement with Bush?

No, but Chavez sounds like he is using fear to control the people, just like Bush is using fear to control the people. Different statements, same principle.

Hogwash. Unless we start threatening to expel people for disagreeing with Bush, you can't make the "same principle" claim.

Well, you can, but all you do is make yourself look foolish.

[Edited 2007-07-23 18:45:29]
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
andessmf
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 11):
No, but Chavez sounds like he is using fear to control the people, just like Bush is using fear to control the people. Different statements, same principle.

No you are starting to sound like Pelosi, who claimed that this administration was the closest to a dictatorship ever in the US. Forgetting that if it were so, she would not have gotten elected speaker.

Same with the whole fear issue, since the Democrats got back into power last year.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 2):
Hugo Chavez is the best that ever happened to Venezuela! I don't live there and I don't have a clue about politics but I'm at an age when it's cool to shock your parents, so VIVA CHAVEZ! Hasta la victoria siempre!
Signed, LHStarAllaince

You are talking the same bullshit as

-
It in fact is a precise picture of many Chavez supporters in Europe ! and applied to supporters of CheCheChe and HoHoHo who were in the same pattern !
 
NoUFO
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
Funny, I read their programme (which was forced upon me by my uncle), while it condems Stalinism, it says nothing about Leninism, so I assume that they (at least the East Germans among them) consider themselves still to be a Leninist cadre party.

I don't wish to go off topic, but if you google around for a German - North Korean friendship clan (the club has about 3 or 4 members) and google each member name, you'll find that one fan of "Dear leader Kim" and his thoroughly Stalinist policies is a member of Die Linken in Mecklenburg Pomerania. And either one of his two or three NK friends or even himself sent his congratulations and best wishes to Minsk when Lukashenko "won" the "election".
I support the right to arm bears
 
slider
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 9):

And if Chavez apponts himself President for life, Venezuela is screwed, right?

At the present rate Crazy Hugo is amassing power, he'll declare himself Emperor before the end of the year.
 
TheCol
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 3):



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 11):

Last time I checked, freedom of speech was still legal in the United States.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
halls120
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 18):
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 3):




Quoting Seb146 (Reply 11):


Last time I checked, freedom of speech was still legal in the United States.

It is. The OP's are just a couple of partisans trying to blow things well out of proportion.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
NoUFO
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 18):
Last time I checked, freedom of speech was still legal in the United States.

Correct; and all Pres. Bush, whom I don't really support, wanted to say with this infamous line was that one needs to take party - either with or against terrorists. It wasn't wise to choose exactly those words, but I wouldn't read too much into them.

As for Chavez, I'm afraid his new decree - if it comes into action - will mostly be directed at foreign press.
I support the right to arm bears
 
Chiguire
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 2):
it was like entering a whole different world. Now it's the opposite I suppose.

Not yet. As soon as oil prices are that high there is enough money in the country. And it remains here as it gets more difficult every day to get it outside the country (changing to US$ or Euro).

About the freedom of speech: At the moment it is not that big problem to express an opinion different to the one of the big leader. If you check the media they are still very aggressive towards him. I remember the picture of Hitler besides Hugo Chavez when his "habilitation" law (enabling act) was published saying something like 1933 Adolf Hitler - 2007 Hugo Chavez. This is something where the media in other countries would have had serious problems if they did it.

But the point is that it is getting worse every day. Now he owns the only telecommunication company and can control the whole internet...mails...etc. The pressure on the media is getting stronger every day. Laws are tight. You need to mention your full name and ID card # if you want to express your opinion on TV or the radio - ridiculous !
 
andessmf
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:53 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 20):
As for Chavez, I'm afraid his new decree - if it comes into action - will mostly be directed at foreign press.

It was also directed at foreign government officials. Obviously a good way for Chavo to make friends.

"The Venezuelan leader's statements came after Manuel Espino, the president of Mexico's conservative ruling party, criticized Chavez during a recent pro-democracy forum in Caracas."
 
IAD380
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:43 am

Chavez claims that his regime is building "socialism for the 21st century." Actually, Chavez is a throw back to the "caudillismo" of the last two centuries. Chavez represents nothing new. His policies and tactics have all been tried before, and all have failed before. Spendthrift economic populism won't move most Venezuelans into the middle class or bring sustainable economic growth and prosperity to the country. Suppressing dissent, repressing civil liberties, and moving in the direction of a one party state means that Venezuelan society is increasingly polarized. Credible democratic elections and open debate about the country's future won't be the way that Venezuela will settle its political disputes while Chavez is in charge. Chavez may be powerful and popular now, but corruption, economic mismanagement, political bullying, and arrogance is likely, sooner or later, to lead to the failure of his "Bolivarian" revolution. Chavez is now leading Venezuela down the same path that other countries have already travelled. As far as I know, these policies do not create strong and stable democracies with developed and prosperous economies. I pity the Venezuelan people, who will ultimately pay the price when Chavez fails to deliver on his promise of bright future
 
Marcus
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
El Chavo del Ocho is revoking freedom of speech in Venezuela

Please don't insult him like that!!!.........El Chavo del Ocho does not deserve the comparison!  biggrin 
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 23):
Chavez may be powerful and popular now, but corruption, economic mismanagement, political bullying, and arrogance is likely, sooner or later, to lead to the failure of his "Bolivarian" revolution.

What I'm afraid of is when this happens, he will start a war with a neighbouring country to distract the population from his failures. He wouldn't be the first one to do it.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
IAD380
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
Reply 25

I think that civil disturbances will become more widespread in Venezuela as the economy begins to deteriorate, political repression intensifies, and social polarization increases. Chavez will continue to blame the United States for the failure of his own domestic policies. However, I doubt that Chavez would start a war with neighboring countries. Instead, he is more likely to intensify his efforts to distablize neighboring countries, such as Colombia, by arming and financing rebel groups. Chavez will follow the example of his Iranian ally by trying to perpetuate regional instability through proxies.
 
Falcon84
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 6):
This sounds like a policy of Chavez' that is difficult to understand,

Only difficult to understand, Joni, if you didn't realize up till now what kind of "leader" he is. It's consistent with everything this lout has done since taking office. He is a dictator, and he's making no bones about it.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
miamiair
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
What I'm afraid of is when this happens, he will start a war with a neighbouring country to distract the population from his failures.

Netherlands Antilles beware. Can't see the Dutch Navy taking back Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao. Don't see Colombia being invaded...

Chavez should have suffered a nine millimeter brain hemorrhage when he was temporarily tossed out. Would have done the world a favor.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
seb146
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
Hogwash. Unless we start threatening to expel people for disagreeing with Bush, you can't make the "same principle" claim.

Well, you can, but all you do is make yourself look foolish.

Using fear to gain support for an invasion of a sovereign nation and passing legislation regarding personal freedoms. That is exactly what Bush did. Saying things like "fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" and "you are either with us or with the terrorists."

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):
No you are starting to sound like Pelosi, who claimed that this administration was the closest to a dictatorship ever in the US. Forgetting that if it were so, she would not have gotten elected speaker.

Using the Patriot Act as a way to justify spying on anyone regardless of the situation. Most of that information is classified, so no one knows the whos or the whys of data mining and wire tapping.

I do think the Bush Administration is smart enough not to expel dissenters. But, they are also smart enough to push those to the head of the class that ask soft-ball questions.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 17):
Emperor before the end of the year.

-
it is some 150 years since the Emperor of Brazil went out of business, so something quite amazing
-
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 2):
Hugo Chavez is the best that ever happened to Venezuela! I don't live there and I don't have a clue about politics but I'm at an age when it's cool to shock your parents, so VIVA CHAVEZ! Hasta la victoria siempre!
Signed, LHStarAllaince

:D haha! Spot on!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 28):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
What I'm afraid of is when this happens, he will start a war with a neighbouring country to distract the population from his failures.

Netherlands Antilles beware. Can't see the Dutch Navy taking back Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao. Don't see Colombia being invaded...

Well, in this case the Netherlands would not be alone, but it would be the case of an attack against a NATO member.
The French and British have some convenient bases nearby, which can be used by to other NATO countries.
Also, since the Bolivarian ideology includes the unification of South America in one country (lead by Chavez), I think the e.g. Colombia would be quite supportive as well.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
andessmf
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
Also, since the Bolivarian ideology includes the unification of South America in one country

I am not quite certain of that, but it is a well known historical fact that Venezuela, Colombia and Ecuador share flags because originally the area was a country called 'Gran Colombia'. Simon Bolivar was devastated when it broke up into the current incarnations.

"This short-lived republic in South America encompassed the territories of present-day Colombia, Venezuela, Ecuador and Panama, as well as smaller parts of Costa Rica, Peru, Brazil and Guyana."

"The dissolution of Gran Colombia characterized the failure of Bolívar's dream"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Colombia
 
Joni
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):

Only difficult to understand, Joni, if you didn't realize up till now what kind of "leader" he is. It's consistent with everything this lout has done since taking office. He is a dictator, and he's making no bones about it.

Up til now, IMO, his policies have been mostly OK - it's just these two that I have a hard time accepting.
 
andessmf
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:11 am

And he now targets another of his foreign critics.

Way to make friend, Hugo!  sarcastic 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070724/..._on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_chavez_1
 
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alberchico
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
What I'm afraid of is when this happens, he will start a war with a neighbouring country to distract the population from his failures. He wouldn't be the first one to do it.

A very unlikely possibility considering that his term of office is almost up and a new leader will be democratically elected just like he was....
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
halls120
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 29):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):Hogwash. Unless we start threatening to expel people for disagreeing with Bush, you can't make the "same principle" claim.

Well, you can, but all you do is make yourself look foolish.
Using fear to gain support for an invasion of a sovereign nation and passing legislation regarding personal freedoms. That is exactly what Bush did. Saying things like "fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" and "you are either with us or with the terrorists."

Bush isn't threatening to expel people who disagree with him. Chavez is. That you continue to equate the two is simply unbelievable.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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LTU932
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
Well, in this case the Netherlands would not be alone, but it would be the case of an attack against a NATO member.
The French and British have some convenient bases nearby, which can be used by to other NATO countries.

And I believe Article 5 of the North Atlantic clearly says that if a NATO country is attacked, it is considered an attack on all of NATO, so technically, if el Chavo decides to attack a NATO country, he'll be in big trouble and face e.g. military action if necessary. Am I interpreting that correctly?
 
Falcon84
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 34):
Up til now, IMO, his policies have been mostly OK

Putting in a caveat to make himself President for life?
Nationalizing industry?
Increasing the size of the military?
Cozying up to the likes of Cuba, Iran and the DRPK?


Those are GOOD policies? Sheesh, I'd hate to see his bad ones.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
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LTU932
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 6):
I think that if the constitution were changed to remove the limit on the number of terms a president can serve, the new rule should apply starting from to the next president, not the sitting one.

What you think should happen doesn't mean that it will happen. If Chávez does change the constitution and has to call for elections, there's nothing that will keep him from rigging those elections without the international observers noticing it.

Quoting Joni (Reply 34):
Up til now, IMO, his policies have been mostly OK - it's just these two that I have a hard time accepting.

You've got to be kidding me. Removing Freedom of Speech, turning political opponents into second class citizens and starting very friendly relations with Castro and Krazy Kim were policies that were mostly OK? Then I guess you wouldn't have had a problem with other communist dictators like Josef Stalin, Erich Honecker and Nicolae Ceausescu, right?  Yeah sure



^^Just to give you a perspective of what dictatorships can lead to, watch the first three quaters of this video on the Berlin Wall and see how those years have created a deep scar on the entire city of Berlin. The will of the people, along with the infamous screwup by Günter Schabowski and the inspiration from the Polish Solidarity Movement (Solidarnosc) were one of the reasons why the Wall eventuelly fell and the Peaceful Revolution succeded in its goal for freedom and democracy. I'm sure that if all Venezuelans stick together, something similar could happen and bring back freedom and democracy to the Republic of Venezuela, and end this madness named "Bolivarian Republic".
 
seb146
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 37):
Bush isn't threatening to expel people who disagree with him. Chavez is. That you continue to equate the two is simply unbelievable

Using fear to control people is the point I was making. Bush is not yet expeling reporters for being critical of the government. Bush is, like Chavez, using fear to control the people. "Terror, terror, terror/if you are against me, you are a terrorist" vs. "jail/expulstion if you are against me."
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
andessmf
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:01 pm

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 41):
Bush is not yet expeling reporters for being critical of the government

I bet you $1000 that will not happen.

Put your money were your mouth is, otherwise don't even come up with such irrational silliness.

If you are so upset about what Bush has done, then you should show the same upset about what Chavez is doing. But you are not.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:33 pm

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 41):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 37):
Bush isn't threatening to expel people who disagree with him. Chavez is. That you continue to equate the two is simply unbelievable

Using fear to control people is the point I was making.

A point that isn't at all persuasive.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 41):
Bush is not yet expeling reporters for being critical of the government. Bush is, like Chavez, using fear to control the people. "Terror, terror, terror/if you are against me, you are a terrorist" vs. "jail/expulstion if you are against me."

Bush is not "yet" expelling reporters? What planet are you currently residing on, may I ask?

That you equate Bush allegedly using fear to "control" people with Chavez threatening to expel people for expressing opposition to his policies is simply unbelievable.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:46 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 38):
And I believe Article 5 of the North Atlantic clearly says that if a NATO country is attacked, it is considered an attack on all of NATO, so technically, if el Chavo decides to attack a NATO country, he'll be in big trouble and face e.g. military action if necessary. Am I interpreting that correctly?

Exactly. And both the French and British have bases in the region, which can be easily used by other NATO forces as a staging area.

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 36):
A very unlikely possibility considering that his term of office is almost up and a new leader will be democratically elected just like he was....

Wanna bet that he finds a way to extend his rule, if necessary by calling out martial law, just like Marcos did in the Philippines?

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 40):
If Ch�vez does change the constitution and has to call for elections, there's nothing that will keep him from rigging those elections without the international observers noticing it.

Just like Honnecker winning all these "democratic" East german elections continously with 98%? Where there existed a fixed list of candidates, all of the same party and where a voter just had to tick "I accept"? Or where it was declared to be unpatriotic to use a polling booth?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 38):
if el Chavo decides to attack

Again, Chavez won't directly attack any other country. Instead, he will follow the model of his Iranian ally by funding and arming proxy militias in other countries, They will do his bidding and attempt to destabilize neighboring countries in the region. Right now, Colombia is probably his prime target, and based on news reports, Chavez seems to support the FARC.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 40):
If Chávez does change the constitution and has to call for elections, there's nothing that will keep him from rigging those elections without the international observers noticing it.

Chavez was reelected last year. So, he is not up for reelection soon. Chavez now has the power to write a new constitution that will remove term limits on the President, and he will be able to achieve this objective. Right now, Chavez is popular in Venezuela. Political suppression, corruption, gross economic mismanagement, and meddling in the internal affairs of other country will strengthen his opponents over time. It is conceivable that confrontation with the Catholic Church, street demonstrations, economic disintegration, and maybe even another revolt in the Venezuelan armed forces will eventually bring Chavez down. Chavez may very well face the same plight of other demagogues and despots who abused the trust of the people who elected them.
 
lamedianaranja
Posts: 1195
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:16 am

I do not think it's nice to visit a country and criticise it anyway. You're a guest and are things so right in your own country then? Of course if someone ask for your opinion you may give it, politely.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 46):
I do not think it's nice to visit a country and criticise it anyway. You're a guest and are things so right in your own country then? Of course if someone ask for your opinion you may give it, politely.

Although it may not be polite to criticize the government of a country that you are visiting, you are still entitled to freedom of speech. Foreign nationals should have the freedom to express positive or negative opinions about the country they are visiting. Freedom of expression is a basic human right that applies to everyone, including foreigners. Chavez's threat to expel foreign nationals who nonviolently disagree with his opinions are part of his broad attack on personal freedom and democracy in Venezuela. Suppressing freedom of expression and association harms the Venezuelan people far more than the foreigners who are expelled.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:53 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 46):
I do not think it's nice to visit a country and criticise it anyway.

Payback is a bitch, isn't it? I mean, where was Hugo when he made the 'sulfur' comment...?
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: What Happens To Foreigner Critics Of Chavez

Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 40):
I guess you wouldn't have had a problem with other communist dictators like Josef Stalin, Erich Honecker and Nicolae Ceausescu,

there was a US-president who spoke about "Uncle Joe" and there were uncountable West European newspapers who for decades praised Nicolae Ceaucescu for his distance towards the USSR and his buying BAC-111s etc . Erich Honecker for years was the "partner" of FJ Strauss and many others.

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