FighterPilot
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Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:13 pm

What is the best all-round main battle tank in the world? M1A2 Abrams? Leopard 2? Challenger 2?

Cal

[Edited 2007-07-24 06:34:22]
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tz757300
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:18 pm

LOL, I wonder what made you come up with this thread :P
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:21 pm

Being I'm from the Dairy State, I see lots of these. Some are over 50 years old and look like new.

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tz757300
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:24 pm

These have lasted a long time too...

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CupraIbiza
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:34 pm

Quoting FighterPilot (Thread starter):
M1A2 Abrams? Leopard 2? Challenger 2?

none of them.

T-72
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FrancoBlanco
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:03 pm

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 4):
T-72

I'd go for a T-1000. Or a T-Rex.
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wrighbrothers
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:19 pm

I'd personally say, being in the military (hey cadets counts lol), that the Challenger 2 tank is (in my opinion) the best all round tank. Had a climb around a few of them and other tanks at REME (Royal Electrical Mechanical Engineers, bascially the army's engineers) and can confim, they are a pretty mean piece of machine, wouldn't like to see one of those coming for me..

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sandrozrh
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:20 pm

You won't be able to get an unbiased answer here. Having served with these babies, i obviousely say tha the Leo2 is th ebest out there. They're probably all about equally good anyway.

 
helvknight
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:53 pm

For me it is:

Challenger
Leopard 2
.
.
.
Abrams

Now what time is it in Alaska? Or, to put it another way, how long have I left to live? Big grin
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strasserb
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:53 pm

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r189/StrasserB/Misc2/star_wars_10_1024.jpg
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 8):
Now what time is it in Alaska? Or, to put it another way, how long have I left to live? Big grin

Don't worry about ANCFlyer. He currently seems to be inhabiting an Australian jail after doing some "fun driving" with what seems to be a souped up M113 or an AFW 432 in Sidney:  Silly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCzGXsTg2go

Here the news:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXjDA-w43hY

Jan
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RJdxer
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:23 pm

I would have said one of these but evidently they are prone to lightening strikes.

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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:35 pm

Jim made a funny.  Big grin

A good one, at that!
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Dougloid
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:07 pm

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Abrams
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 4):
T-72

Piece of Shit.

I've personally blown the turrets off a couple of 'em . . . .

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 8):
Now what time is it in Alaska?

0800.  biggrin 

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 8):
Or, to put it another way, how long have I left to live?  biggrin 

 rotfl 

IMO, for whatever it's worth, I think the Challenger 2, Abrams and Leo are all on par wioth being the top of the line tanks in the world.

When you discuss "what is the best all around tank", you have to take everything about the tank into account. Firepower, Crew Survivability, Fire Control, Automotive Performance, etc.

For my $$$, it's the Abrams.

I am of course partial to my Abrams . . . but I know first hand the capabilites of that machine. I know none of the Soviet era/Russian built armor we challenged in the desert stood a chance in hell against the Abrams. I watched a couple of turrets fly off those things. I've been inside a T72, T64, and a T55. All equally worthless.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXjDA-w43hY

that's hilarious . . .



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Dougloid
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
For my $$$, it's the Abrams.

I am of course partial to my Abrams

How fast will the M1 Abrams really go when the governor's disabled? I asked a guy who's a track mechanic recently returned from the mean streets around Ramadi and he laughed and said 'no comment'.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
helvknight
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:42 am

Personally I like the Leopard 2 parking enforcement.

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sandrozrh
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 14):
T-72

Piece of Shit.

I've personally blown the turrets off a couple of 'em . . . .

So did I, however onl yin the simulator, does that count? Othe rthan that i blow off a lot of russian tank mockups  embarrassed 
 
fridgmus
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:17 am

T-72? Are you kidding? It was obsolete 20 years ago and like ANCFlyer said, "Piece of Shit"

While the M1A2 Abrams has my vote, a strong honorable mention should go to the Israeli Merkava 4!

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BA
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:28 am

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MCOflyer
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:56 am

40+ mph without the governor and i've heard the tracks will melt if any faster than 40.

The Abrams. Very good machine capable of delivering a large loud wake up call.

Hunter
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):
How fast will the M1 Abrams really go when the governor's disabled? I

I've had an Abrams going 72mph, Governors disabled . . .

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 20):
40 mph without the governor and i've heard the tracks will melt if any faster than 40.

Not true.

Just don't turn too sharply.

40 mph is normal cruise, even faster, Governors engaged.

We had a hell of a time in 1st Gulf War outrunning our fuel and ammo . . . .
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CupraIbiza
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:44 am

See below extract from Wikipedia.

The T-72 is common around the world in the armies of many potential enemies of the U.S. and other Western nations. Many Western analysts regard this as worrisome because, at least theoretically, its 125 mm 2A46 main gun is capable of destroying any modern main battle tank in the world today, including the M1 Abrams. On the other hand, on those three occasions when Soviet clients using T-72s have met Western armies that possessed modern main battle tanks —Lebanon in 1982 (against the Israeli Merkava), Iraq in 1991 (against the U.S. M1 Abrams and the British Challenger 1), and again Iraq in 2003— the T-72 did not show its abilities. After clashes in Lebanon in 1982, both the Israelis and the Syrians claimed their main tank's superiority, but there is no verifiable evidence of a T-72 meeting Merkava in battle. In the Persian Gulf War, the Iraqi tank units were heavily defeated, although this might have more to do with the poor training and full air supremacy than with any deficiencies of the T-72 itself. Furthermore, while facing the most modern Western tanks, the versions the Iraqi army fielded were out of date at the time. The Iraqi T-72s were downgraded export versions that had not been significantly upgraded over time and were firing inferior ammunition (often with steel penetrators and half-charges of propellant).
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AA787823
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:46 am

A 1977 Lincoln Continental

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Dougloid
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:51 am

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 22):
See below extract from Wikipedia.

Authoritative source there, probably a quote from the sales brochure.


 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
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CupraIbiza
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:59 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 24):
Authoritative source there, probably a quote from the sales brochure.

Haha very true. I like that. Good point.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:59 am

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 22):

I don't give two shits what Wikipedia says . . .

I have first hand . . . read that COMBAT . . . experience against that piece of shit and I can tell you, FIRST HAND, slow, unmaneuverable, outgunned, outranged, outperformed, in EVERY respect, not a competitor against, Abrams, Leo or Challenger. But you believe what you want.

Maybe you should stick to your Customs Brokerage . . . cause if you are a purchasing agent for the Oz Military, I'd be worried . . .

Problem with the T72, is you can't get close enough to me for that 125mm cannon to make a difference. When I can stand off at over - OVER - 6000 meters and take you out, who cares what kind of cannon you have. And lets not even get to the auto-loader that has to be at zero/zero to reload. Oh, did I mention the slow as hell diesel engine? What about the lack of armor? And perhaps the inability to see at night? Range, there's that range thing.

Go read up on the stats for Desert Storm. How many kills did the T72 have during that escapade? Hell, how many kills does the T72 have period?

Nope, T-72 = POS. Confirmed, first hand.
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GQfluffy
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:05 am

Quoting CupraIbiza (Reply 22):
its 125 mm 2A46 main gun is capable of destroying any modern main battle tank in the world today, including the M1 Abrams.

Right. Wasn't there a report of an M1 that got stuck in the sand, and several Iraqi tanks started taking pot shots at it, only to be blown away by the stuck M1? IIRC, turns out the M1 had rounds sticking out of its armor. They tried to pull it out, and when they couldn't, another M1 was ordered to blow it up. Our own rounds couldn't even penetrate the armor. Again I'm not sure if this was accurate or not, but I do remember reading something like this somewhere. Real credible, eh? Big grin
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aloges
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:25 am



no comment Big grin
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fridgmus
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 26):
have first hand . . . read that COMBAT . . . experience against that piece of shit and I can tell you, FIRST HAND, slow, unmaneuverable, outgunned, outranged, outperformed, in EVERY respect, not a competitor against, Abrams, Leo or Challenger.

Well, I guess that ends THAT debate!  bigthumbsup  72 mph? Oh Hell yeah!

Hey BA, where can I get one of those? We could have some serious fun with them over here on base!!!  biggrin 
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AirframeAS
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting FighterPilot (Thread starter):
M1A2 Abrams

I vote for the Abrams!
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 27):
Wasn't there a report of an M1 that got stuck in the sand, and several Iraqi tanks started taking pot shots at it, only to be blown away by the stuck M1?

Well, I can't attest to that, but I can tell you if you 'track' an Abrams, you NOW have the baddest stationary gun platform on the Battlefield.  biggrin 

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 27):
turns out the M1 had rounds sticking out of its armor.

I have also heard of this, I have not seen this, but there are stories of such things.

I can tell you an AK47 would will not penetrate a front turret glacis on an Abrmas  silly .

So can the poor bastard at Basra that in his last act of defiance bobbed out of a cinder block building at the edge of the airfield and took myself and my wingman under fire with his AK . . . valiant effort. I didn't kill him . . .

My wingman did tho.

Oh, speaking of Abrams, can he Leo or he Challenge track multiple targets simulatneously?

I know the -72 can't . . . by the time it has a target it's already been killed.  biggrin 

The dual thermals on the M1A1-A2 are phenomenal. . .

Quoting Aloges (Reply 28):

Wrong thread. LMAO!
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MDorBust
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:46 am

Hey, while we have the attention of the tank brains...

Can anyone tell me what the heck this thing is? It's been driving me nuts.

It looks like the buisness end of an Abrams. Obviously ultra high speed film. Some sort of test projectile.

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ANCFlyer
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 33):

It's a missile, not a tank round.

that's my initial assessment. I'll look at longer, but I KNOW it's not a KE round from a panzer.

Could be a Shillelagh. But I don't think so. Looks more like a TOW. . .
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MDorBust
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:55 am

TOW had two sets of guidance fins.

Maybe something akin to the guided missile the russians could fire from the main gun of a tank?
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L-188
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 33):
Could be a Shillelagh. But I don't think so. Looks more like a TOW. . .

No way that is a 152 mm weapon.

I suspect that somebody is working on a guided weapon for the 120mm.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 32):
It looks like the buisness end of an Abrams

I would guess it is the 120mm that arms the Abrams but I suspect that it is actually mounted on a test stand, no in an Abrams.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:01 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 35):



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 34):

Somewhere burind in my Hard Drive is a test video for an AT missile. . . . real killer weapon. I will lookfor it, and if I can figure out the technology I'll post it on Photogag. . .

Looks like that. A ground fired AT missile.
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AirSpare
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 32):
Obviously ultra high speed film.

Not to nit pick...but it would be a high speed camera with a frame rate, I would guess from looking at it, a 100,000 frames per second.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 33):
It's a missile, not a tank round.

There is no exhause plume in flight, can't be a missile.

At first I thought it may be a sub munitions dispensor. But as the projectile diameter is pretty small, I don't knwo how effective it would be. My second best guess is a GPS guided recon projectile. The imparted spin would provide a view of the ground, and the fairings blown off after firing were to shield the sensors.
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waterpolodan
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 31):

ANC, cool to hear stories from a tanker with real combat experience! Can I ask, how many T72s did you guys actually engage in direct combat? I don't know much about the individual battles of the gulf war, I just always thought that the majority of the T72s and older tanks the Iraqis had were taken out by airstrikes and apaches/cobras, and the remainder were dug in as stationary guns which never even got shots off before they were taken out by the abrams...
 
MDorBust
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:11 pm

Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 38):
I don't know much about the individual battles of the gulf war,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_73_Easting
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sandrozrh
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 16):
Personally I like the Leopard 2 parking enforcement

That's a so called Buffalo. A help and rescue tank built on a Leo2 chassis. Nothing too exciting  Wink
 
DYflyer
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 40):
A help and rescue tank built on a Leo2 chassis

Leo1 not leo2. It is an engineer´s vehicle used to dig trenches etc. The help and rescue tank would be the bergepanzer witch is a bit higher and have a crane instead of the excavator.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:39 am

Don't forget when the T-72 was introduced, in the early 70s, basically a counterpart of the later American M-60, the British Centurion and Chieftain and the early Leopard 1. Also, Peps, you were facing the dumbed down export version (the Soviets liked to keep the real goodies for themselves). I agree that the automatic loader had so many drawbacks that it turned out to be a dead end (AFAIK, the Russians went away from it in later tanks).
Similar the T-55 was the equivalent of the M-48 and the direct successor of both the Joesoph Stalin and the T-34 (a medium weight tank, bigger than the T-34 medium tank, but smaller than the JS heavy tank).

I assume though that the drawbacks concerning the range of the T-72 gun did not matter so much in the theatre it was designed for, the big tank battles on the northern German plains during Cold War. There is lots more cover in Germany (forests, farm buildings etc.) than in the Iraqi desert, so it would be easier to set up ambushes to target enemy tanks.

Jan

[Edited 2007-07-25 17:42:06]
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 39):
Quoting Waterpolodan (Reply 38):
I don't know much about the individual battles of the gulf war,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...sting

The Battle of 73 Easting was the most 'flamboyant' battle of the Gulf War.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 42):

The Russians still had the auto-loader in the T-80. Their T-72 upgrade . . . and still have a range problem. The inaccuracies of their range finding equipment, coupled with the inability to 'see' at night have been and continue to be a serious drawback to Russian armor.

Your assessment that the T72 performed as designed is fairly accurate. It was designed to fight in Europe where range to enemy tanks would be less than a mile in all likelihood. Unfortunately, the Russians didn't have the foresight to build a tank that had multiple role capabilities. Fortunately, the US did. The Abrams can - as designed - fight in any climate.

Example: The Abrams "Battlesight" range - in other words, no need to use the range finder - just point and shoot - is 1200 meters. Designed for the European theater. It speeds up the engagement time. BUT the more than accurate range finder allows for longer range engagements in open terrain - read that "desert".

Jan, I have read ranges to enemy tanks at over 6000 meters. We thought at first the range finder missed the target. So we re-ranged. Got the same reading. I gave the fire command and much to our surprise - and pleasure - the enemy tank exploded over 6000 meters away. The enemy couldn't even see us. We were stealthy (Turbine engine), low profiled, and deadly accurate. They never knew what hit 'em.

Short sighted designs all the way around - the Russian armor.
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Dougloid
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 15):
How fast will the M1 Abrams really go when the governor's disabled? I

I've had an Abrams going 72mph, Governors disabled . . .

My acquaintance did say that the...ahem...learning excursion....did bad things to the engine and it had to be changed the next week because it got sick.

He is on his way to Fort Irwin for a stay there. I asked him whether knowing what he knows he could be happy wearing a Home Depot apron and directing housewives to the paint department he just said he didn't think so.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
zak
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RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 32):

Can anyone tell me what the heck this thing is? It's been driving me nuts.

calibre: around 120mm
gun: certainly rifled, so the rheinmetall 120mm gun used by leo's and in license by abrams is to be ruled out
warhead: i assume its a heat warhead, since the warhead itself is NOT rotating, whilst the projectile itself is. rotation is very counter productive to the effects of heat ammunition, this was however not the reason to introduce smoothbore guns
the british use HESH rounds alot, unlike most other nations. these are not affected by rotation, and also do not cause target effect via penetration like heat or dart KE.

the gun in the video has all characteristics of the L30 120mm BAE rifled gun used on the challenger, including appearance of barrel sleeve and smoke extractor. the only noticeable difference is the lack of battlefield recalibration mirror at the muzzle, something you will not need on a test rig anway, so that is not an indicator.

that round there could be the challenger CHARM3 round, its a DU-KE round that has to be alot more complicated than the smoothbore rounds, to get it to speed and prevent it from spinning. or a new generation heat round, also with spin-supression, for this rifled type of gun. all this un-spinning that you need for all rounds except HESH it complicated, hence the tommies are upgrading to the rheinmetall L55 gun found on most recent leopards (and not L44 like on M1s or leopards up to 2A5), since smoothbore HEAT and KE outperform rifled HESH about everywhere.
i have no picture of the CHARM3 round available, i have only had a technical description at hand.
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ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 44):
did bad things to the engine and it had to be changed the next week because it got sick.

More likely the the transmission got sick, not the engine.

The engine - the turbine itself - isn't very large. The tranny on the other hand is the size of a small Volkswagen.

It takes a huge tranny to cut down the power of the engine and make it manageeable at the Sprocket.

I'm no automotive guy though, I just know from experience that the engine - the turbine itself - doesn't like dust, drinks fuel by the gallon very rapidly, and has a LOT of gut. The transmission reduces the power of that turbine substantially. Five forward and two reverse speeds.

Now, I am a Master Gunner. I did know the fire control system in the A1 dead cold. I'm sure there have been lots of changes in the last decade or so though. I haven't kept up on them as I have no need really.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:12 am

I think I found our mystery projectile.

This is some really hi-tech stuff.

http://www.defense-update.com/products/digits/120MRM.htm
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 43):
The inaccuracies of their range finding equipment, coupled with the inability to 'see' at night have been and continue to be a serious drawback to Russian armor.

Did you only have experience with the export models or also with the versions issued to the Soviet / Russian Army, which AFAIK where much better equipped?

Also, wasn't Soviet armour doctrine based on overwhelming the enemy with huge amounts of expendable, reasonably cheap tanks (think tank battles on the Eastern front during WW2)?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Best All-Round Tank In The World?

Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 48):

In combat, only with export models.

I have been aboard T72s that were "comandeered" from the Soviet army however.

Yes, the Soviet doctrine was to essentially overwhelm the enemy by sheer numbers. We had a life expectency near Fulda of about two hours. Depending on how quickly we maneuvered and whether the Soviets used chemicals right off or waited a bit.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND

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