Derico
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Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:33 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20...attn_national_foreign_editors_ytop

"The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the package has not yet been announced, said it would include selling Saudi Arabia advanced weapons known as Joint Direct Attack Munitions, or JDAMs. JDAMs convert simple gravity bombs into accurate "smart" weapons."

"The package also will include new weapons for the United Arab Emirates , another U.S. ally in the Persian Gulf, and both military and economic support to Egypt . Other details of the proposed arms sales weren't immediately available Friday."

"Israel has asked for access to the Air Force's most advanced fighter jet, the F-22 Raptor, and its stealth technology, which makes the aircraft more difficult to see on radar."


- - - - - -

Since this is such a peaceful corner of the world, let's just give them some weapons generations ahead of their current arsenal to, I'm sure, gather dust to never be used.

If any other country tries to sell weapons to another, they face threats and even economic sanctions by the United States government.

But, when it's time to Do as I do... "won't do as I said".

You can be guaranteed that these "smart gravity" weapons will be used within 10 years against innocent civilians within or outside Saudi Arabia, and the F-22 Raptors will fly over Lebanon or the West Bank doing the same thing. The countries in this region are a threat to world peace (by this I'm not saying they are evil, but the plain truth is they are muddled in conflicts and instability), and a particular country wants to feed more weapons??

Too bad the world doesn't have the balls to threaten the US with economic sanctions. Sure it would hurt the world economy, but a combined EU, China, Japan, Mexico/Latin America, Russia embargo on the US would be far more devastating on the one country facing them. But this cannot be allowed to stand. It's 100% disgusting and it makes me sick.
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Falcon84
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:38 pm

Those nations are scared right now, and they're scared of 2 things: 1. Iraq going into all-out civil war, and 2. Iran picking up the pieces of a shattered Iran, annexing it, and become the undisputed regional superpower.

That's what is driving those deals. I suppose we could leave them defenseless, but if Iran breaks out, selling JDAM's to Saudi Arabia will be the least of the worries in that region.
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Derico
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
That's what is driving those deals. I suppose we could leave them defenseless, but if Iran breaks out, selling JDAM's to Saudi Arabia will be the least of the worries in that region.

My problem is that this is entirely purely about $$, masked under the guise of helping allies.

The bottom line is that Israel has quite a capable military, and the PRODUCE their own weaponry, some of it quite good for world standards. They have bright educated people, they don't need more infusion of outside.

And the Arab countries can do the same thing, and continue developing their own weaponry. Saudi Arabia, the UAE, etc are not exactly suffering with U$D 80 oil.

Neither need this, Iran does not have weapons that are so far ahead to warrant this. Very troublesome.
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Falcon84
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:52 pm

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
My problem is that this is entirely purely about $$, masked under the guise of helping allies.

Free enterprise, Derico. It's a win-win deal. Our friends get some weapons to defend themselves, and we get the cash from said sale of weapons.

As long as the really bad guys are on the prowl, there will be need for such weapons, unfortunately. It's a sad reality of a far-from-perfect world.

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
Neither need this, Iran does not have weapons that are so far ahead to warrant this.

For a smart guy like yourself, that's a little naive, Derico. You arm yourself the best you can, and screw your potential enemy. If Iran is behind in such weaponry, maybe they'll think twice about backing up all the threats they've made in the last year or so. If their potential adversaries outgun them, that's just too bad for them.

Iran's not-so-subtle hint at acquiring nuclear weapons means they're one-up on the others, and if the other nations' in the region can deter that, it's all for the better in, as I said, in a less than perfect planet.
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mham001
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:21 pm

If you think they can't or won't buy these things from other sources, you are either very naive or simply stupid.
 
cfalk
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sat Jul 28, 2007 2:49 pm

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
combined EU, China, Japan, Mexico/Latin America, Russia embargo on the US

Some of these countries you mention have been selling weapons to Iran, and sold weapons to Iraq during the embargo. They are hardly in a position of moral superiority.
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MDorBust
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:02 pm

1) The US is not going to sell the F-22 to Isreal because we are already pissed off about technology transfers
2) Last time I check, Saudi Arabia, the UAE nor Eqypt were involved in insurgent war, so the Iran/Iraq comparison is invalid.
3) JDAM is just a guidance package for pre-existing weapons. It's not an uber special super weapon like some people pretend. The Paveway III has the same accuracy and is already in service with these nations.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
If any other country tries to sell weapons to another, they face threats and even economic sanctions by the United States government.

Really?

Then why does the US still talk to Russia, who's largest industry is arms sales?

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Sure it would hurt the world economy, but a combined EU, China, Japan, Mexico/Latin America, Russia embargo

LOL

China and Russia? An embargo because of arms sales? That's rich. Too bad China and Russia have huge international arms industries.
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Mir
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:37 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Our friends get some weapons to defend themselves, and we get the cash from said sale of weapons.

I'm not convinced that Saudi Arabia is our friend.

-Mir
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:54 pm

There he goes again . . . "Outrageous" and "US Gov't".

Nothing outrageous about free enterprise or selling weapons to your friends to protect them from their enemies.

Ummm, lemme see, this sort of thing has gone on in every inductrialized country in the world for decades.

Oh, and Derico . . where's your outrage over the Iranian shoulder fired missiles sold to the Iraqis? Where's the "Completely Outrageous Behavior of the Iranian Gov" thread?

 sarcastic 
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dtwclipper
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 2):
The bottom line is that Israel has quite a capable military, and the PRODUCE their own weaponry, some of it quite good for world standards. They have bright educated people, they don't need more infusion of outside.

The bottom line is, the sale of arms to Israel.

Be honest here Derico, isn't that what the real problem you have with this?
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Derico
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 9):
The bottom line is, the sale of arms to Israel.

Be honest here Derico, isn't that what the real problem you have with this?

No, since I'm not anti-Israel whatsoever, I'm pro-Israel, you should try again.

I'm against adding kerosene to a burning sofa inside a house...

Which is exactly what this is about.

So now, what would be so wrong if China and Russia arm Iran? Well, since the United States is arming Saudi Arabia and Egypt, that would be more than enough justification. Let alone justifying Iran's nuclear weapons.

Call me 'simplistic', but perhaps what is needed in the upper reaches of world governments, is that, a bit more simplicity. Of realizing that there is a cause and effect, and that arming one group of countries in a war-zone region, will for sure make the other side arm further.
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Falcon84
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 5):
Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
combined EU, China, Japan, Mexico/Latin America, Russia embargo on the US

Some of these countries you mention have been selling weapons to Iran, and sold weapons to Iraq during the embargo. They are hardly in a position of moral superiority.

Exactly. Weapons sales, unfortunately, is a huge business for any decent-sized nation. It is, sadly, part of a world where there are greedy people, extremely bad people, and people who just don't give a shit.

But the U.S. has it's interests, Derico, and we feel that these sales are in our best interest, and that of our allies.

And while I agree that Saudi Arabia is a dubious ally, the fact remains that to let it fall into the hands of Iran would be disasterous for the world.
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FriendlySkies
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:30 am

I really don't get the Saudi Arabia thing...probably never will. We're giving advanced weapons and lots of money to a country who WE KNOW supports and houses more known terrorists than any other middle eastern country (hell, probably more than ANY other country). All because of oil...makes me sick.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 12):
I really don't get the Saudi Arabia thing...probably never will. We're giving advanced weapons and lots of money to a country who WE KNOW supports and houses more known terrorists than any other middle eastern country (hell, probably more than ANY other country). All because of oil...makes me sick.

Fine, let's let Iran take over the Peninsula, squeeze the west even further for their support of Israel, have gas prices go through the roof they're already at, and cripple our economy. Sound good do you?

The cold, hard truth of HERE AND NOW, is that oil drives the economies of the world. We need it for transportation, for heating houses, etc. It's vital. Which is why this nation, and the world, in fact, need a "go to the moon" effort to get off oil, and on to renewable energy sources that will make oil politics obsolete. It's the big problem of the first half of this century, in my view.

But until then, you simply cannot let the vital oil supply fall into the laps of Iran, even if Saudi is a dubious "friend".
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FriendlySkies
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:43 am

@Falcon84

I realize all of that...doesn't change the fact that it makes me sick to think about it.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Nothing outrageous about free enterprise or selling weapons to your friends to protect them from their enemies.

Except of course if it's Russia selling weapons to Venezuela, then it's the scandal of the century. The arms trade is a dirty business, and responsible governments should put in place SOME ethical standards regarding those to whom they sell these weapons. Being a fully fledged peaceful multi-party democracy who doesn't/hasn't threatened a neighbouring state in the last 20 years, would be a good start.
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Mir
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
So now, what would be so wrong if China and Russia arm Iran? Well, since the United States is arming Saudi Arabia and Egypt, that would be more than enough justification. Let alone justifying Iran's nuclear weapons.

While I agree that giving arms to Saudi Arabia and Egypt isn't a very good way to convince Iran to give up its nuclear ambitions, there is a big difference between that and Russia and China arming Iran. Iran is far more of an international troublemaker than any other country in the region.

-Mir
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JGPH1A
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Iran is far more of an international troublemaker than any other country in the region.

*cough*coalitionofthe'willing'*cough*
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itsjustme
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 13):
The cold, hard truth of HERE AND NOW, is that oil drives the economies of the world.

If this is correct, why aren't we buddying up to Canada? Something stinks with regard to the connection between Saudi Arabia and the Bush Administration and I have to believe it's not simply the smell of crude oil.

"Alberta's oilsands could become the single biggest contributor to the world's supply within 10 years, says a report released Wednesday by CIBC World Markets. That would mean a global shift in oil dominance from Saudi Arabia and the Middle East to Canada."
 
Mir
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
*cough*coalitionofthe'willing'*cough*

Think whatever you like about the Iraq invasion, but the president of the United States does not go around saying that certain other nations should be wiped off the map.

I don't care for this deal much either because of the Saudi aspect, but there is a big difference between Saudi Arabia and Iran.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Falcon84
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Iran is far more of an international troublemaker than any other country in the region.


*cough*coalitionofthe'willing'*cough*

The coaliting of the willing, as the President so ignorantly stated, is the reason why we have such a mess in the Middle East right now, and why these arms sales are necessary. If I were to think Dick Cheney were calling all the shots, I'd say maybe that was one of the goals of this war-to scare our friends so much they'd have to buy billions in arms for us.

What an ephipany. And, seriously, I wouldn't put anything by this man who runs his own private government.

[Edited 2007-07-28 20:11:46]
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JGPH1A
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
but the president of the United States does not go around saying that certain other nations should be wiped off the map.

No, he just goes ahead and invades them. Potato, po-tah-to. Iran might be a troublemaker, but their not the only one in the region.
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itsjustme
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):

No, he just goes ahead and invades them.

Que the, "Congress gave Bush approval..." crowd.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 22):
Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):

No, he just goes ahead and invades them.

Que the, "Congress gave Bush approval..." crowd.

Actually, que the "the Democrats approved the war" crowd.
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MDorBust
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 15):
Except of course if it's Russia selling weapons to Venezuela, then it's the scandal of the century.

So, what sanctions did the US impose on Russia for the sale of 100,000 AK-47 rifles?

The MI-17 helicopters?

The MI-35 helicopters?

The MI-26 helicopters?

The Kilo class submarines?

The SU-30 fighters?
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PPVRA
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:30 am

Both Russia and the USA need to get their military lobbyist under control. . .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Mir
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):
No, he just goes ahead and invades them. Potato, po-tah-to.

The purpose of the invasion was not to destroy Iraq, it was to get rid of Saddam Hussein's government. Potato, grapefruit.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 22):
Que



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
que

What?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PPVRA
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 22):
Que



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
que

What?

Correct, "que" is Portuguese for "what"  checkmark   Wink

I believe they meant to say "cue", though.  Smile

[Edited 2007-07-28 21:13:55]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
mham001
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):

So now, what would be so wrong if China and Russia arm Iran?

THEY ALREADY ARE!!!

jeese, how do you put a person on ignore for ignorance?
 
pbottenb
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 10):
Call me 'simplistic',

OK - you asked for it:

You are simplistic!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 15):
Except of course if it's Russia selling weapons to Venezuela, then it's the scandal of the century.

Well, of course it is . . . Venezuela isn't exactly a "stable" country IMO.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 22):
Que the, "Congress gave Bush approval..." crowd.

Not necessary, you took care of it for us.
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Mir
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 27):
Correct, "que" is Portuguese for "what"



 Smile

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Falcon84
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:48 am

Sorry about "que". For some reason I wasn't watching what I was doing.  Big grin
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flymia
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
Too bad the world doesn't have the balls to threaten the US with economic sanctions. Sure it would hurt the world economy, but a combined EU, China, Japan, Mexico/Latin America, Russia embargo on the US would be far more devastating on the one country facing them. But this cannot be allowed to stand. It's 100% disgusting and it makes me sick.

Well sorry but if it was not for the United States the EU and Russia would not even exist. Please a sanction against the United States?  Smile that is a laughable thought.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
Free enterprise, Derico. It's a win-win deal. Our friends get some weapons to defend themselves, and we get the cash from said sale of weapons.


Exactly  Smile
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Derico
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 29):
You are simplistic!

Fine, but trying to justify a hypothetical by using a hypothetical, at least in science, is called Occam's Razor.

Perhaps such a principle is needed in world politics.

To justify the sales of weapons on the basis of a hypothetical Iranian invasion of other Arab states (of which I never have heard Iran say they would consider invading Saudi Arabia), and then using this hypothetical to justify increased sales to Israel to balance things out and prevent a hypothetical future belligerant Egypt or Saudi Arabia...

... Is exactly what has the US in so many of the geo-political messes is currently in.

''No one can predict the future, but in trying to predict it's outcome one can predict surprises for he who attempts it''.

A saying by a famous astrophycisist, Juan Maldacena.

A clever turning around of the concept the statement tries to discredit, by guaranteeing a future result. And I think it's right on the money.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:51 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
The purpose of the invasion was not to destroy Iraq, it was to get rid of Saddam Hussein's government. Potato, grapefruit.

And the result is...? Grapefruit, grahp-fruit.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 30):
Well, of course it is . . . Venezuela isn't exactly a "stable" country IMO.

Ummm - has Venezuela invaded anyone ? Has Venezuala actively destabilised democratically elected governments ? Has Venezuela done anything apart from elect a short-sighted populist egotistical demagogue who says God talks to him ? Boosshh - ebil Boooshh !!
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Mir
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:58 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 35):
And the result is...?

The result is an utter strategic cock-up, but in international law intent does count. One can find plenty of faults with the conduct of the war, but that's seperate from the reasons behind the invasion.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:12 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
The result is an utter strategic cock-up, but in international law intent does count. One can find plenty of faults with the conduct of the war, but that's seperate from the reasons behind the invasion.

Let's not get into the whole "reasons" thing - what intent there was is very murky at best, and does no credit to anyone involved.
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baroque
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Iran is far more of an international troublemaker than any other country in the region.

*cough*coalitionofthe'willing'*cough*

Very nasty complaint there JGPH1A, must try and reduce the ciggies.  blush  Funny having threads like this after there were two world wars that were ostensibly devoted to killing the markets for the worlds traders in arms. And then the parting warning from Ike.

Still, must get back to business and sell a few more bombs. Obviously the current batch of customers does not use them up quickly enough.

If Iran were to take over the peninsular and its oil reserves, I am left wondering what they would do with them. Drink the oil, bath in it, or perhaps sell it. They still would not have a monopoly so what would be the difference? Apart from the fact that we love the noble desert Saudis and hate the Iranians (although we still love the Persians - I think!).  boggled   boggled 

Whatever happens, today's high oil prices are just the start whoever owns the damned stuff.
 
pbottenb
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 34):
Fine, but trying to justify a hypothetical by using a hypothetical, at least in science, is called Occam's Razor.

Perhaps such a principle is needed in world politics.

You are overcompensating for your earlier simplistic statements with a bunch of complicated sounding gobbledygook...better to quit while you are ...not so far behind...

Quoting Derico (Reply 34):
To justify the sales of weapons on the basis of a hypothetical Iranian invasion of other Arab states (of which I never have heard Iran say they would consider invading Saudi Arabia), and then using this hypothetical to justify increased sales to Israel to balance things out and prevent a hypothetical future belligerant Egypt or Saudi Arabia...

... Is exactly what has the US in so many of the geo-political messes is currently in.

More gibberish...So you are saying that all of the "geo-political messes" that the US is in is due to the justification of this arms sale based on a hypothethetical invasion of the KSA by Iran...(you did use the word "exactly" in your statement. Your theory sounds like a stretch...

Please tell me how the current situation with Venezuela and Cuba is at all related to Isreal. This I gotta hear.
 
Derico
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 39):
You are overcompensating for your earlier simplistic statements with a bunch of complicated sounding gobbledygook...better to quit while you are ...not so far behind...

Whatever, call me what you will if it makes you feel better. Bottom line even your own politicians from all major parties have huge concerns and reservations about this, and don't tell me otherwise I saw it a little bit ago on CNN International. I'm only glad my line of thinking is in their company and NOT yours.

Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 39):
Please tell me how the current situation with Venezuela and Cuba is at all related to Isreal. This I gotta hear.

Hmmm.... what?

ps- I did not bring VNZ or CUB into my argument, so I don't know what you mean.
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FlyingTexan
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RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:57 am

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 12):
I really don't get the Saudi Arabia thing...probably never will. We're giving advanced weapons and lots of money to a country who WE KNOW supports and houses more known terrorists than any other middle eastern country (hell, probably more than ANY other country). All because of oil...makes me sick.

Money.

Its greed, arrogance and money. Thats what drives Bush. There is a group of people paying him $400k to be their president. Another group of people invested in him and his failed pipe dream businesses, his rich daddy, his criminal friends and their related businesses $1,400,000,000 over a number of years.

Where is his love? Where is his best interest?

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
*cough*coalitionofthe'willing'*cough*

With more contractors in Iraq than troops, its coalition of the billing.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:38 am

Derico, I don't understand how you can make a mountain out of this molehill. You've got an article on yahoo news and this is "completely outrageous behavior of US government"?

Before you get your undies in a bunch take a gander at the big picture

http://www.csis.org/index.php?option=com_csis_pubs&task=view&id=1573



The fact of the matter is that everyone sells weapons in the middle east, because everyone there is either scared to death their neighbors want to kill them or they want to kill their neighbors. I'm quite sure that anyone and everyone who can sell weapons in the middle east for ready cash will do so with a smile on their face and a song in their hearts. The people of the middle east are equal opportunity buyers of hardware. Let them have it if they have the cash. We're doing no more than the rest of the world has been doing for the last fifty years.

Quoting Derico (Thread starter):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20...attn_national_foreign_editors_ytop

"The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the package has not yet been announced, said it would include selling Saudi Arabia advanced weapons known as Joint Direct Attack Munitions, or JDAMs. JDAMs convert simple gravity bombs into accurate "smart" weapons."

"The package also will include new weapons for the United Arab Emirates , another U.S. ally in the Persian Gulf, and both military and economic support to Egypt . Other details of the proposed arms sales weren't immediately available Friday."

"Israel has asked for access to the Air Force's most advanced fighter jet, the F-22 Raptor, and its stealth technology, which makes the aircraft more difficult to see on radar."
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Acheron
Posts: 1828
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:53 pm

Yeah, this is fine for some here until one of those countries turns around against the US and uses this very same weapons against them, then it becomes evil. Seems the US hasn't learned its lessons from 1979 in Iran, nor Afghanistan and the talibans, nor Saddam, etc.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5422
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:24 pm

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 9):
The bottom line is, the sale of arms to Israel.

The bottom line is that there are still chances that regime in SA will change from horrible to even worse (hard to imagine, I know) and these weapons sold to former "friends" will be used against true friends and allies.
No lesson learned from Iranian F-14s???

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
selling weapons to your friends to protect them from their enemies

Sure you don't have "friends" mixed up with "enemies" or are you just defending your gov't shortsighted actions by default because of course Bush can do no wrong? Ridiculous.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 3):
It's a win-win deal. Our friends get some weapons to defend themselves

Win-win deal...??? OK, let me get this stratight, the US is selling high-tech offensive weapons to "friends" (pray tell what other common denominator for friendship is there... other than oil???) such as the Saudis who they know 110% that they fund every god damn islamic terrorist from Casablanca to Gaza to Jakarta?

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 42):
the big picture

I think the big picture shows how shortsighted it is.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:10 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 44):
Casablanca to Gaza to Jakarta?

You missed Surakarta, aka Solo, the haunt of the great and peaceful Abu Bakar Bashir, whose prosecution for heading an organization that has carried out more bombings that Al Q outside Iraq was wrecked by the US withholding at least one crucial witness. They also "lost" another one when he escaped from Bagram!
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 43):
Yeah, this is fine for some here until one of those countries turns around against the US and uses this very same weapons against them, then it becomes evil. Seems the US hasn't learned its lessons from 1979 in Iran, nor Afghanistan and the talibans, nor Saddam, etc.

What specific lessons are you talking about that the US goverment ought to take notice of? Without going into an extensive and rather concise discussion about historical matters, all you're doing here is quacking.

As far as the folks in the middle east who nurture an addiction to weaponry that would put your common street level crackhead to shame, there'll be no beating of swords into plowshares anytime soon. I would refer them all to either Julius Caesar: "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in ourselves." or Pogo: "We have seen the enemy, and he is us."

Quite simply, the weapons will be bought and sold. The only determinant is who makes the profit from it, whether it is the US, France, Britain, Israel, the Czech Republic, Russia or China or anyone else with the tooling, like North Korea. On that note, one might argue that sales by China and North Korea of missile technology to Iran like Silkworm and Scud-B were 'completely outrageous behavior of" their governments, or the sale of fighter aircraft to Saudi by the UK was completely outrageous behavior of that government.

But all that is factual stuff of no importance when we're having so much fun kicking Uncle in the shins, is it?

Really. Read the document I cited to. It makes fascinating reading.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 33):
Well sorry but if it was not for the United States the EU and Russia would not even exist.

Huh?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 38):
And then the parting warning from Ike.

Updated: "Beware the Cheney complex."

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 41):
With more contractors in Iraq than troops, its coalition of the billing.

 rotfl  good one!
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 47):
Huh?

Proof that teaching history has not been a great priority in our culture...

I would also call to your attention that if you look at the stuff that gets shot at us, at Iraqi civilians, at Afghan civilians, and at pretty much every terrorist target anywhere these days, you will rarely see them firing U.S.-made M-16s and LAWS rockets. They are Russian or Chinese copies of AK assault rifles and RPGs, and various other paraphernalia made by the very same countries that Derico claims have a moral obligation to protest US weapons sales.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
pbottenb
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: Completely Outrageous Behavior Of US Gov

Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 40):
Quoting Pbottenb (Reply 39):
Please tell me how the current situation with Venezuela and Cuba is at all related to Isreal. This I gotta hear.

Hmmm.... what?

ps- I did not bring VNZ or CUB into my argument, so I don't know what you mean.

Please refer to your own words in the previous post:

Quoting Derico (Reply 34):
and then using this hypothetical to justify increased sales to Israel to balance things out and prevent a hypothetical future belligerant Egypt or Saudi Arabia...

... Is exactly what has the US in so many of the geo-political messes is currently in.

You have said here that using a hypothetical to justify increased sales to Israel to balance things out and prevent a hypothetical future belligerant Egypt or Saudi Arabia Is exactly what has the US in so many of the geo-political messes is currently in...

My point being that other messes include Venezuala/Cuba...so please explain your post.

Do you even read what you type?

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