D L X
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End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:28 am

From another thread, we were discussing the Phoenix helicopters that crashed while filming a police chase. I advocate ending police chases completely, unless there is probable cause to believe that a life-endangering crime is about to occur absent immediate apprehension of the suspect.

The reason is that police chases inherently increase the risks to everyone else on or near the road, and almost always end in a wreck. Many innocent people have died on roads, particularly in California, when they were hit by a suspect or a cop during a high speed pursuit. That suspect could be apprehended later, so why put people at risk now?
 
yooyoo
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:33 am

We've had several instances of late with police chases and innocent people being hurt or even killed up here. It always comes down to police discretion.

Here in YYZ, i would like to see a police helicopter in the air, but the mayor flat out refuses to even listen to advocates of a chopper. Baffling.
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ORFflyer
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
and almost always end in a wreck.

Source?? I find it real hard to believe that they "almost always end in a wreck"

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
Many innocent people have died on roads

SOME innocent people have died - certainly. As have innocent people died from plane crashes, car wrecks, and athletes participating in sporting events. Should we end air travel, car travel, and sports? Hell, those examples don't even end up putting a bad guy behind bars, and many a police chase do.

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
That suspect could be apprehended later

Maybe, maybe not. The alternative would be that the thugs would realize that they are not going to be chased, and crime would go up IMO.
 
D L X
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:50 am

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2):
Source??

Gene Burns, a San Francisco radio show host, complaining about too many car chases in California. (And logic. There's only two ways for them to end: crashing, and surrender. More than half are the former.)

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2):
SOME innocent people have died

No, MANY. But if you're going to argue the difference between "some" and "many" I think it's time to give us your next best argument.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2):
As have innocent people died from plane crashes, car wrecks, and athletes participating in sporting events. Should we end air travel, car travel, and sports?

Terrible analogy. People who died in plane crashes, car wrecks (of the non-police chase variety) and sporting events were not involved in anything initiated by law enforcement. This discussion is about the actions of law enforcement raising risks to innocent people.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2):
Maybe, maybe not. The alternative would be that the thugs would realize that they are not going to be chased, and crime would go up IMO.

The evidence goes the other way. Virginia doesn't have police chases, and yet has lower crime.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
and almost always end in a wreck.

 redflag 

Don't count the perpetrator crashing and burning . . . if the moron is running from the po-po and crashed, all the better.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
Gene Burns, a San Francisco radio show host, complaining about too many car chases in California. (And logic. There's only two ways for them to end: crashing, and surrender. More than half are the former.)

So. See my immediate above.

The perp crashes . . . maybe gets killed . . . as long as an innocent is taken along for the ride - who gives two craps.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Pope
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:12 am

does anyone have any real statistics on this? Let's start with the two basic figures:

1. How many innocent people were injured last year in police chases?
2. How many police chases occured last year?

We can debate policy but our arguments should be based in fact.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
KROC
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
The perp crashes . . . maybe gets killed . . . as long as an innocent is taken along for the ride - who gives two craps.

I care.

Signed, We're Nuts - Advocate for plush jails for criminals
 
fr8mech
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:16 am

I'm all for ending high speed chases. That way when I commit a crime, all I have to do is drive fast and the police will cease chasing me.
signed, every criminal with a vehicle capable of going over 50 mph.

While we're at it, let's stop going after someone committing a crime with a firearm. He may shoot someone if the police get involved.

Hey, there's one way to stop high speed chases: STOP when the police try to pull you over or even better: DON'T commit any offense that may require the police to stop you.

What a novel idea.

[Edited 2007-07-31 21:17:19]
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MDorBust
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
That suspect could be apprehended later, so why put people at risk now?

 rotfl 

That's a good one.

As I've said before on this often recycled topic:

1) We don't really know who they are. Sure, we might know the license plate of the car (maybe), but that doesn't tell us who the driver is. You can't go pick someone up later if you don't know who they are.
2) Letting them go only allows them to get to a location where they can arm up, fortify and take hostages.. making the situation worse.
3) Just because we aren't chasing doesn't mean they aren't going to run like mad anyways.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
(And logic. There's only two ways for them to end: crashing, and surrender. More than half are the former.)

3) Automotive failure (out of fuel, transmission failure, tire failure etc.)
4) Forceful non-crash termination by police vehicle intervention
5) Rabbited into a dead end.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
The evidence goes the other way. Virginia doesn't have police chases, and yet has lower crime.

This is the second time in this thread you have claimed there are not police pursuits in VA.

How do you explain the first result of a google search for "virginia police pursuit"
http://www.wvec.com/news/local/stori...ocal_072307_fatal_ax.a431cf71.html

Quote:
A man died Sunday night after flipping a car during a short police pursuit.

Around 11:00 p.m. police were called to a car accident on the 1000 block of Great Fork Road in Suffolk. The car was in a ditch, and a man and woman were at the scene. The woman said that she had been driving the car at the time of the accident.

Here's another one
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19373591/

And another
http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=6789971
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RobK
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 7):
I'm all for ending high speed chases. That way when I commit a crime, all I have to do is drive fast and the police will cease chasing me.
signed, every criminal with a vehicle capable of going over 50 mph.

 bigthumbsup  Exactly my thoughts too!

R
 
OPNLguy
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:38 am

Just my 2 cents, but I don't think the need for police chases (or other non-chase high-speed driving) can ever be totally eliminated, as I just don't think it's realistic. That said, there are some departments with varying degrees of restrictive chase policies, and each agency is in the best position to determine what its local citizenry wants/needs/expects of them, and I don't think a one-size-fits-all restriction works everywhere.
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777236ER
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:48 am

If a person is running for a non-violent crime, or is arguably not a risk to the public, of course a pursuit shouldn't take place. One innocent life is too many to placate the egos of the police.
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57AZ
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:51 am

You'll always have someone that wants to flee. As for chase policies, that should be left up to the individual agencies. Most of the agencies I am familiar with will not chase unless the person has committed a violent crime or presents a credible danger to others (DUI, person with gun).
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
IFEMaster
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
Gene Burns, a San Francisco radio show host, complaining about too many car chases in California.

 rotfl  A liberal amongst liberals. Nice, reliable, unbiased source you have there, DLX!

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
As I've said before on this often recycled topic:

All of MDorBust's accurate comments pretty much sum it up. Eliminating police chases is a ridiculous notion.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
D L X
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Don't count the perpetrator crashing and burning . . . if the moron is running from the po-po and crashed, all the better.

No, not all the better. And not just for my normal pro-life reason, but rather because we as a society do not want projectiles hurling down our roads and freeways. If we know that the moron will likely be injured or killed, we also know that the risks for the non-morons nearby are escalated as well. Situations that cause wrecks are dangerous for everyone.

Quoting Pope (Reply 5):
1. How many innocent people were injured last year in police chases?
2. How many police chases occured last year?

Those aren't the right questions. Those questions try to measure a ratio of innocent injuries to chases ensued. The correct thing to measure is how many innocent injuries incurred to how many innocent injuries AVERTED by the chase. I posit that extremely few injuries are averted by a chase.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 7):
I'm all for ending high speed chases. That way when I commit a crime, all I have to do is drive fast and the police will cease chasing me.

Doesn't mean you won't get caught. The VAST majority of convictions are NOT the result of a police chase.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 7):
While we're at it, let's stop going after someone committing a crime with a firearm. He may shoot someone if the police get involved.

Another bad analogy. No one has ever said do not try to apprehend criminals. (DUH!!) This thread is about high speed chases. Furthermore, if someone is using a gun while committing a crime, doesn't that suggest to you that there may be probable cause that someone's life is endandged absent immediate apprehension? (Which of course as I said in the OP is the exception for initiating a chase.)

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
That's a good one.

I'm glad you liked it. The old "I will laugh at you, and therefore defeat your argument" trick. Well done.  Yeah sure

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
1) We don't really know who they are. Sure, we might know the license plate of the car (maybe), but that doesn't tell us who the driver is. You can't go pick someone up later if you don't know who they are.

There are other ways to catch a crook that have worked for as long as we've had crooks.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
2) Letting them go only allows them to get to a location where they can arm up, fortify and take hostages.. making the situation worse.

Speculation. You don't even know if this is a violent offense yet.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
3) Just because we aren't chasing doesn't mean they aren't going to run like mad anyways.

More speculating. (But it should be pretty obvious to those playing at home that people who aren't being chased don't have as much incentive to run.)

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
This is the second time in this thread you have claimed there are not police pursuits in VA

No it's not... look again.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
How do you explain the first result of a google search for "virginia police pursuit"
http://www.wvec.com/news/local/stori....html

I see a chase that ended in a crash. Actually, I see three chases that ended in crashes.

I stand corrected that Virginia police never use chases, but I maintain that Virginia police use the chase much more sparingly than other jurisdictions. Additionally, your sources show that these chases indeed endangered lives.
 
D L X
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 13):
A liberal amongst liberals. Nice, reliable, unbiased source you have there, DLX!

Are you freakin' serious?!

Dude, for one,  redflag  because you try to defeat an argument by saying "he's a liberal, so he must be wrong."

Secondly,  redflag  because he is most definitely and outwardly NOT a liberal. You didn't do your homework.
 
IFEMaster
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
The VAST majority of convictions are NOT the result of a police chase.

That's far too sweeping a statement to hold any credibility whatsoever. You need to refine it to chases that have resulted in a conviction and then supply some reliable (not liberal radio hosts) unbiased sources.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
There are other ways to catch a crook that have worked for as long as we've had crooks.

I'd like to see the list, with sources.
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
Don't count the perpetrator crashing and burning . . . if the moron is running from the po-po and crashed, all the better.

No, not all the better.

Yes, all the better. No tax dollars to waste prosecuting and housing the moron. . . .and it's a self-inflicted wound. Crashed while running from the police . . .  rotfl  Too Bad, So Sad . . .

Still haven't seen a source to back this up:

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
almost always end in a wreck.



Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
Many innocent people have died on roads, particularly in California, when they were hit by a suspect or a cop during a high speed pursuit.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
Gene Burns, a San Francisco radio show host

Well, there goes your credibility, sunshine.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
There's only two ways for them to end: crashing, and surrender. More than half are the former

Hmmm... Maybe in California, where everytime a dog shits there's a news helicopter there to catch it live for the sensationalism-loving subhumans.

Here, in the Twin Cities metro area, maybe 5% of all chases end in a crash. And very few of them end with anyone getting hurt.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
D L X
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 12):
Most of the agencies I am familiar with will not chase unless the person has committed a violent crime or presents a credible danger to others (DUI, person with gun).

Which as I mentioned are the sensible reasons to initiate a chase (if there is probable cause that the person with a gun might use it).

I'm actually kind of surprised with the responses here from the pro-gun people. I would think you'd say "let him run! Since there are so many of us law-abiding gun toters, we'll just shoot him ourselves when we see him."  Silly
 
D L X
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 18):
Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
Gene Burns, a San Francisco radio show host

Well, there goes your credibility, sunshine.

Do you even know who Gene Burns is? Go do your homework.


(Here's a hint: he's a conservative/libertarian!)

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 16):
That's far too sweeping a statement to hold any credibility whatsoever.

Are you kidding me?

Do the math: how many police chases are there in a day? Compare that to how many arrests there are in a day.

Q.E.D.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Still haven't seen a source to back this up:

That will take time. I'll look at it when I'm not at work. But, all the news stories we've seen on this thread as "evidence" back up my claim. (Cue MDorBust going on google looking for news stories saying the opposite.)

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 18):
Here, in the Twin Cities metro area, maybe 5% of all chases end in a crash. And very few of them end with anyone getting hurt.

Since we're calling out sources, I call this one out.
 
777236ER
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Still haven't seen a source to back this up:

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
Many innocent people have died on roads, particularly in California, when they were hit by a suspect or a cop during a high speed pursuit.

www.kristieslaw.org

Biased, but disagree with facts if you want. More than 2500 innocent people killed since 1982 in chases, apparently. More than 100 police officers.

Once again, if they're not running from a violent crime, or aren't a violent risk to the public, don't chase them.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
sw733
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 13):
A liberal amongst liberals. Nice, reliable, unbiased source you have there, DLX!



Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
Secondly, because he is most definitely and outwardly NOT a liberal. You didn't do your homework.

I think he goes as a libertarian...but the station is the most listened to talk station in San Francisco, perhaps the most liberal city in America.

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
Dude, for one, because you try to defeat an argument by saying "he's a liberal, so he must be wrong."

He's not trying to defeat it, he's trying to show that just beacuse a one-sided talk show host says it doesn't mean it's true...it would be like Lou Dobbs or Ann Coulter saying it was true - clearly, that doesn't mean it's true.
 
D L X
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting SW733 (Reply 22):
He's not trying to defeat it, he's trying to show that just beacuse a one-sided talk show host says it doesn't mean it's true...it would be like Lou Dobbs or Ann Coulter saying it was true - clearly, that doesn't mean it's true.

On the contrary. He is saying "because he is a liberal amongst liberals, I don't have to bother listening to him -- he's already wrong."

Funny thing is, I didn't realize this was a liberal vs. conservative thing at all. Anyone who argues that "if it was said by a liberal, it is wrong" gets a big  redflag .
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 20):
Since we're calling out sources, I call this one out.

How about 28 years of personal experience. Good enough?

Quoting D L X (Reply 20):
Do you even know who Gene Burns is?

An anti-government loudmouth. He reminds me of an old antiestablishmentarian that forgot this is the 21st century.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
sw733
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
On the contrary. He is saying "because he is a liberal amongst liberals, I don't have to bother listening to him -- he's already wrong."

Funny thing is, I didn't realize this was a liberal vs. conservative thing at all. Anyone who argues that "if it was said by a liberal, it is wrong" gets a big .

Can you prove that's what he was saying, or are you going off how you translated it? Because I don't see anywhere after that where he said "because he is a liberal amongst liberals, I don't have to bother listening to him -- he's already wrong". If that's how you translated it, and I wrote how I translated it, why am I wrong? There are liberal and biased news hosts out there...doesn't mean they're right or wrong, but it does mean they usually have a specific agenda.

Ok, so IFEMaster did bring up the liberal topic, but it didn't become a liberal vs. conservative topic...it became a biased vs. unbiased topic. Don't feel attacked just because people are questioning your possibly questionable source.

[Edited 2007-07-31 22:55:30]
 
itsjustme
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:51 am

D L X, in the PHX Helicopter crash thread, you said, among other things, "I think that the police should almost NEVER initiate a chase", and "The cop has radioed in your license plate number before he ever stops you. So, this plan of speeding off because you don't want a traffic ticket would mean you can never go home, since the cops will meet you there." and "A chase should NEVER EVER ensue over a simple traffic stop. Never.".

With regard to the first statement, I agree 100% with you and you should know, we truly never ("NEVER") initiate a chase. The criminal fleeing from us initiates the chase. Your second statement regarding the plate number being radioed in is not always accurate. It's possible that "A" plate number has been radioed in (assuming the vehicle in question actually has a plate on it) but that's no guarantee the plate on the vehicle is the one that belongs there. Quite often, crooks will replace a vehicle plate with a stolen plate, prior to committing a crime. The reasons for this are obvious. Some crooks will actually steal a plate off a vehicle of the same make and year (or as close as they can get) so that when an officer runs the plate, it appears to come back to the vehicle it's currently on (which is why when we get plate info back, it not only lists the type of vehicle it should be on but also the registered owner and the VIN of the vehicle it's registered to). Crooks who don't want to go to the trouble of switching plates will simply steal a car, do their crime, and then dump the car. Point being, your assumptions that just because the vehicle we're pursuing has a plate on it means we automatically know the identity of the person fleeing is incorrect. With regard to your feelings that chases should never ever ("NEVER EVER") ensue over a simple traffic stop, sir you simply don't have the knowledge or experience to make such a sweeping statement. Any cop will tell you that a significant number of "good" arrests (ie: wanted felons or those who plan to or have just committed a felony) come from the "simple traffic stop". Also, as strange as it may seem, rarely if ever do wanted felons walk up to an officer and say, "I just carjacked this vehicle and shot the owner to death....arrest me please". And here's a little insight for you; criminals typically don't take care of their vehicles; meaning they'll be late renewing their registration (usually due to outstanding warrants or not having insurance), or they'll let a burned out headlight go unchanged, or they'll let that broken tail light go unfixed and quite often, it's these simple equipment violations that can and do lead to taking a dangerous felon off the street. As I have stated in several previous threads, I despise the phrase, "routine traffic stop" or as you stated, a "simple" traffic stop. There is no such animal. Traffic stops will get an officer injured or killed just as quickly as any violence run he/she is sent to handle (I don't have current stats but they very well could be the #1 cause of officer's being killed in the line of duty).

Most, if not all departments now have strict policies that address vehicle pursuits. Several factors are taken into account by a supervising officer when making a decision as to whether or not to continue a pursuit. Those include, what is the person wanted for, traffic/road conditions, vehicle/pedestrian traffic, and current speeds of the pursuit. Quite often, more often than you can imagine, after these factors are taken into account, the pursuing officers are told to terminate the chase and we'll just "get him another day". But to simply say a chase should never ensue over a traffic stop is flawed, sir.
 
MDorBust
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
I'm glad you liked it. The old "I will laugh at you, and therefore defeat your argument" trick. Well done.

Yeah, it's almost like I didn't post anything else to counter you...

Oh wait..

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
The correct thing to measure is how many innocent injuries incurred to how many innocent injuries AVERTED by the chase.

That's also completely and totally unmeasurable.

So, you're saying that you think the proper measure for comparison, and the measure you will accept, is the measure which can't actually me quantified?

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
The VAST majority of convictions are NOT the result of a police chase.

The vast majority of convictions are in traffic court.

Pointless comparison.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
There are other ways to catch a crook that have worked for as long as we've had crooks.

And we still apply other ways to catch crooks.

You must know that since you just said "The VAST majority of convictions are NOT the result of a police chase."

If we aren't using other methods, how are we catching these people?

Toolbox: Don't use the 20lb sledge to hang picture frames.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
Speculation. You don't even know if this is a violent offense yet.



Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
More speculating. (But it should be pretty obvious to those playing at home that people who aren't being chased don't have as much incentive to run.)

Speculation? No, personal experience. Been there done that, filed the report.
I've seen guys go to ground and gun up. I've seen (more technically heard via radio) guys TC without a single ground unit on him.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
I see a chase that ended in a crash. Actually, I see three chases that ended in crashes.

Yeah, fleeing suspects killed themselves.

What's the problem?

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
Additionally, your sources show that these chases indeed endangered lives.

I hope you don't think that a random pull of news articles constitutes a valid statistical sampling of police pursuits.

The reason they made the news is because of how they ended. The ones that aren't so flashy don't make the news.

Quoting D L X (Reply 20):
But, all the news stories we've seen on this thread as "evidence" back up my claim.

Oh well, you do think they are a valid statistical sample...

Nevermind, no point anymore.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
N1120A
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2):
Hell, those examples don't even end up putting a bad guy behind bars, and many a police chase do

So f'ing what? They are called Peace Officers for a reason. No unnecessary killing to keep the peace. The police can call off a chase and search alternate methods of capture, which pose a far smaller danger to innocent life.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2):

SOME innocent people have died - certainly

Which is ridiculous. Even the CHP has admitted going to far at times.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 12):
Most of the agencies I am familiar with will not chase unless the person has committed a violent crime or presents a credible danger to others (DUI,

DUI isn't something I necessarily think chasing is a good thing for. While I agree with the basic premise of getting the person off the road as quickly as possible, I think you run into a problem when you end up have a drunk trying to play Speed Racer.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 13):
A liberal amongst liberals. Nice, reliable, unbiased source you have there, DLX!

 sarcastic  Even if the dude was a liberal, why would his opinion not count?

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 16):

That's far too sweeping a statement to hold any credibility whatsoever.

Not in the context of the quoted statement. Try reading that first.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 18):
the sensationalism-loving subhumans.

Hey now, it is us sensationalism-loving subhumans who keep this country within any realm of solvency.
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:00 am

D L X.... Now I remember. He's that librarian libertarian guy that agrued with me and others a few weeks ago simply for the sake of arguing.

Oh no. Your not going sucker me into your game this time.

[Edited 2007-07-31 23:04:50]
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):

Oh well, you do think they are a valid statistical sample...

Nevermind, no point anymore.

Did you ignore the website I posted? 100 police officers dead since 1982.
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):

Gene Burns, a San Francisco radio show host, complaining about too many car chases in California. (And logic. There's only two ways for them to end: crashing, and surrender. More than half are the former.)

WOW! What a credible source.....conservative, liberal, moderate....doesn't matter. He's a radio host, not an expert in police psychology and science.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
Doesn't mean you won't get caught. The VAST majority of convictions are NOT the result of a police chase.

Because the VAST majority of criminals don't run

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 18):
Here, in the Twin Cities metro area, maybe 5% of all chases end in a crash. And very few of them end with anyone getting hurt.

If one is initiated at all. Not often do we hear a chase on MNSEF.

Quoting D L X (Reply 20):
(Here's a hint: he's a conservative/libertarian!)

See above, it doesn't matter.
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 31):
He's a radio host, not an expert in police psychology and science.

Good call...that does go above all political lines.
 
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 30):

Did you ignore the website I posted? 100 police officers dead since 1982

In twenty five years of pursuit, as many officers have died while conducting pursuits as have died in an average year... by September. Or in the case of this year, already: 105

It's funny, some guy in England telling me how dangerous my job is.
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 31):
If one is initiated at all. Not often do we hear a chase on MNSEF.

True. We have maybe one chase every two weeks in St. Croix county. People know they can't get away. They just pull over. Most chases involve motorcycles with Minnesota plates. In those cases, Stillwater PD, Hudson PD, and Wisconsin State Patrol just wait for them at the Stillwater and I-94 bridges.
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:16 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 34):

True. We have maybe one chase every two weeks in St. Croix county.

Hell, I don't think I've ever heard a chase in Rice County as long as I've been there. Our last pursuit was two-three years ago. Dakota County sent one our way, but he was stopped before reaching us.
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
The correct thing to measure is how many innocent injuries incurred to how many innocent injuries AVERTED by the chase. I posit that extremely few injuries are averted by a chase.

And how exactly would you measure that realistically? If the guy being chased and the cops both safely drive by one vehicle on the highway, is that "one injury.death averted"?

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
Quoting Pope (Reply 5):
1. How many innocent people were injured last year in police chases?
2. How many police chases occured last year?

Those aren't the right questions.

No, it's more like you don't like the right answer because it might just show the number of innocent injuries/deaths isn't as high as you want to believe.

Quoting D L X (Reply 20):
Do you even know who Gene Burns is? Go do your homework.


(Here's a hint: he's a conservative/libertarian!)

I could be wrong, but I don't get the impression AsstChiefMark is a conservative. Moderate at best I would say.

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
That suspect could be apprehended later, so why put people at risk now?

So what about when the suspect is driving a stolen vehicle. How do you propose to apprehend them later?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Yes, all the better. No tax dollars to waste prosecuting and housing the moron. . . .and it's a self-inflicted wound. Crashed while running from the police . . .  rotfl  Too Bad, So Sad . . .

 checkmark  Just like the idiots who get shot when running from the police, even after being told to "Freeze" or "Stop" or "Get down on the Ground".


I'm all for the police being able to use tactics that would bring an end to the chase sooner, especially if the chase is approaching dense traffic or neighborhoods or metropolitan areas.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
So f'ing what? They are called Peace Officers for a reason. No unnecessary killing to keep the peace. The police can call off a chase and search alternate methods of capture, which pose a far smaller danger to innocent life.

So the police are the responsible ones if the idiot being chased drives off the road and macks a tree?
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 12):
Most of the agencies I am familiar with will not chase unless the person has committed a violent crime or presents a credible danger to others (DUI, person with gun).

Not true here in Maricopa county..

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 26):
Your second statement regarding the plate number being radioed in is not always accurate.

Very rarely does a Calfiornia Highway Patrolman call in a license plate prior to a traffic stop. Dispatch system wouldn't be able to handle the volume.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 26):
Any cop will tell you that a significant number of "good" arrests (ie: wanted felons or those who plan to or have just committed a felony) come from the "simple traffic stop".

Very true.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 26):
Also, as strange as it may seem, rarely if ever do wanted felons walk up to an officer and say, "I just carjacked this vehicle and shot the owner to death....arrest me please".

In one case,in East Palo Alto a guy came up to me and told me he had a warrant, yea a $35million bond out some small town in Missouri, apparently he had sex with the judges underage daughter. .
 
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:20 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 37):
$35million bond out some small town in Missouri, apparently he had sex with the judges underage daughter. .

Haha, don't piss off the judge! Big grin
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 36):

So the police are the responsible ones if the idiot being chased drives off the road and macks a tree?

I will let you re-read that post and think about your response.
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21):
Biased, but disagree with facts if you want. More than 2500 innocent people killed since 1982 in chases, apparently. More than 100 police officers.

So in 25 years 2500 people have died (approx 100 people/yr) . Obviously its a tragedy whenever an innocent person dies but by no means indicative of a massive problem. I wonder if during that time if there were no high speed chases how much higher the murder rate would have been as a result of these criminals getting away? Remember criminal behavior is usually an escalating problem. People may start off with non-violent crimes but the longer they are at it, the more likely that violence will find its way into the mix. Everyone of these "runner" has demonstrated that they do not respect police authority.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21):

Once again, if they're not running from a violent crime, or aren't a violent risk to the public, don't chase them.

The problem is that when someone runs, you don't know if the guy running is a risk to the public. Let's allow police officers to make their split second professional judgments and not second guess them after the fact from the comfort of our living rooms with the luxury of time to think about it. Like any human endeavor, there are going to be mistakes made but knee jerk reactions like a blanket ban on police chases may cause more problems than it resolves.

[Edited 2007-07-31 23:33:50]
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:31 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 37):
In one case,in East Palo Alto a guy came up to me and told me he had a warrant, yea a $35million bond out some small town in Missouri, apparently he had sex with the judges underage daughter. .

It's a good thing the judge was objective...  Wink

Then again, maybe the bail was set so high because of the additional charge of Absolute Stupidity in the First Degree..
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting SW733 (Reply 25):
Don't feel attacked just because people are questioning your possibly questionable source.

My response was because this poster has in the past insinuated that if my source is liberal, it is biased, and not to be trusted. The thing is, how does liberalness have anything to do with this issue? (And the guy even isn't liberal anyway.)

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 26):
But to simply say a chase should never ensue over a traffic stop is flawed, sir.

Hey, thanks for your well written post. I don't want to give the impression that I'm giving you short shrift, but you premise your argument on the idea that I think there are no circumstances under which police should initiate a high speed chase (I fully reject your symantic argument that police don't initiate chases, crooks running do. Crooks run. Cops chase. Cops therefore initiate chases.). I said on this and the other thread that a high speed chase is appropriate when there is probable cause to believe that someone will be harmed absent the chase. I'm not a cop, so I accept your views of police practices wholesale. But as a cop, surely you understand that most of your arrests come without a high speed chase. So, when there is no imminent harm likely to occur unless you chase the guy right now, why escalate the risks?

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 26):
Most, if not all departments now have strict policies that address vehicle pursuits.

And thank God for them! I just wish the folks out west and in Texas lived these policies too. Look at that chart on katieslaw.com. It's mindblowing, isn't it, how many more people are hurt there.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
That's also completely and totally unmeasurable.

So, you're saying that you think the proper measure for comparison, and the measure you will accept, is the measure which can't actually me quantified?

1) it is quantifiable. Hard does not equal impossible.
2) it is a lot more useful than Pope's irrelevant measure. Pope's measure is equivalent to measuring how many people died playing Russian roulette vs. how many people didn't die when playing Russian roulette.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
The vast majority of convictions are in traffic court.

Pointless comparison.

Just because you missed the point doesn't make it pointless.  Wink But if you prefer the word "arrests", then use the word "arrests." But I think the part you missed is that I'm talking about the people who committed crimes that these cops had the choice of high speed chase or not. Most arrests came without a high speed chase. That's called comparing apples to apples.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
And we still apply other ways to catch crooks.

MD, I'm saying use those other ways EXCLUSIVELY.

Duh....

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
Speculation? No, personal experience

 redflag 
sorry dude, your anecdote does not equal data.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
Yeah, fleeing suspects killed themselves.

What's the problem?

Come on dude. Crashing car means out of control car, which means risks to people that out of control car was near. Doesn't take a genius.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
I hope you don't think that a random pull of news articles constitutes a valid statistical sampling of police pursuits.



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
Oh well, you do think they are a valid statistical sample...

No dude, your stories are proof of examples. That's all.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 31):
WOW! What a credible source ... He's a radio host, not an expert in police psychology and science.

 redflag 

I expected better of you... Because he is a radio host, he's a fool? Do you even know who he is? You go do your homework too. That the source of the stat that most chases end in a crash is a radio host has nothing to do with psychology nor science.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 31):
Because the VAST majority of criminals don't run

Which of course is because the majority of criminals ** are not chased ** !!
THANK YOU!!!

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 31):
See above, it doesn't matter.

No kidding... I wouldn't have guessed that.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 33):
It's funny, some guy in England telling me how dangerous my job is.

So now we've gone from saying "if you're a liberal, you're wrong because you're a liberal" to "if you're from England, you're wrong because you're from England?"

I'm so amazed by people here that instead of debating the issue, dismiss the argument as being from a "biased" source. Like this chap:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 29):
D L X.... Now I remember. He's that librarian libertarian guy that agrued with me and others a few weeks ago simply for the sake of arguing.

So long! No one is going to force you to argue.
 
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
The thing is, how does liberalness have anything to do with this issue?

It doesn't. Politics has nothing to do with this. I still say this does:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 31):
He's a radio host, not an expert in police psychology and science.



Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
Because he is a radio host, he's a fool?

Nope, I would have said the same if a neurosurgeon, pilot, McDonalds fry cook, etc would have. Radio host is an important job (what else would I do driving to work in the morning?), but he does not have the expertise to comment on issues like these.

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
Do you even know who he is?

Nope.

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):

Which of course is because the majority of criminals ** are not chased ** !!

Because they don't run  Smile No need to chase criminals that don't run. If they run on foot (and I fall on my face in a foot of snow chasing the dumbass), I get pissed  Smile
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
Most arrests came without a high speed chase.

Still an invalid argument.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 31):
Because the VAST majority of criminals don't run

You still haven't replied to those of us who have said that just because we see a car, doen't mean we know who the driver is.

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
sorry dude, your anecdote does not equal data.

Wait.. Me having seen these very things happen doesn't count towards knowing these things happen...?

...

That's just... odd.

You heard it guys. All the law enforcement on this forum can just surrender now.. we don't know the things we know and haven't done the things we've done.

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
So now we've gone from saying "if you're a liberal, you're wrong because you're a liberal" to "if you're from England, you're wrong because you're from England?"

Umm. Never said anything about liberals.

What I am saying is, I don't need some guy in England who's never done the job telling me how dangerous it is. I know exactly how dangerous it is.

In fact, I suspect I have a much better understanding of it than he does.
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 44):
You still haven't replied to those of us who have said that just because we see a car, doen't mean we know who the driver is.

Hey hey hey. Watch your quote button  Smile
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 45):
Hey hey hey. Watch your quote button

I was using that as an example of why most arrests are conducted without a chase.

Unconnected to the next thought.
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
I will let you re-read that post and think about your response.

I think it's a reasonable question for you N1120A. You said the police have the option to call of the chase, which would avoid the loss in the life, be it the criminal or other innocent victims. So I'm asking you if the police make the decision to continue the chase, and the criminal is killed, do you think the police should be held accountable?

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
Come on dude. Crashing car means out of control car, which means risks to people that out of control car was near. Doesn't take a genius.

Criminal on the loose because chase was called off means risks to the people too. If it's a stolen vehicle and you have no idea who the suspect is, you don't know if he's only guilty of stealing a car and running from the cops or if he's also guilty of far worse. Doesn't take a genuis.

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
Which of course is because the majority of criminals ** are not chased ** !!
THANK YOU!!!

What he's saying is that's because there's no need for a chase in the first place.  sarcastic  It doesn't help your point at all.
Also, if the person ran from the cops before, isn't it likely they will try to run again later rather than be apprehended?
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
Even if the dude was a liberal, why would his opinion not count?

Opinions are irrelevant when you are quoting a talk show host a reliable source of unbiased, truthful fact. Which DLX was. He still hasn't provided a reliable source either.
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RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:56 am

I will not chase unless there is a serious crime being committed...especially if I have their tags..

No one deserves to die for speeding or running a red light.

GS
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