AC773
Topic Author
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NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:36 am

A couple in rural North Carolina decided to hang their flag upside-down and promptly got a visit from an Asheville police officer about it

Quote:
“He was very polite and just said that because it was a sign of distress, he wanted to make sure everything was OK,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We said we had it out as a show of desperation — our country is in distress and we just don’t know what to do. We asked if we had violated any ordinance. He said, ‘No, you have every right.’”

More recently, a Sheriff's deputy came again on the grounds of a complaint filed about the flag. Here's where it gets interesting...

Quote:
“I saw that one cop [Scarborough] pull up and I saw those people come out on the porch and start talking to him,” Stevenson said. “They took their flag down, asked the officer to leave and closed the door. Then he started kicking the door, he kicked it about five or six good times, then he laid right into it. After he got done kicking it, he broke the window out - I saw him hit the window.” Deborah Kuhn says that Scarborough then “pursued my husband into the kitchen, they were scuffling, [and] Mark was trying to get away from him. He pulls out his billy club and I call 911 and say that an officer has broken into our house and is assaulting us.”

First off, it was downright stupid of these people to post that stuff on their house. You live in Asheville, morons! It might have been fine in RDU or CLT, but I don't know how they weren't expecting any trouble.

On the other hand, the deputy's behavior (according to the couple plus several witnesses) is appalling. I don't care if we're in rural Alabama, LEOs should be expected to act rationally and professionally at all times. If the witnesses are correct, this person should be fired.

Link to the story: http://www.mountainx.com/news/2007/f...er_protest_flag_allege_abuse_by_bu
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
You live in Asheville, morons! It might have been fine in RDU or CLT, but I don't know how they weren't expecting any trouble.

Actually, Asheville has a reputation of being a fairly liberal haunt - lots of ex-counterculture types.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
N1120A
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):

First off, it was downright stupid of these people to post that stuff on their house. You live in Asheville, morons! It might have been fine in RDU or CLT, but I don't know how they weren't expecting any trouble.

It doesn't matter where you are. They are protected by the First Amendment.

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
If the witnesses are correct, this person should be fired.

Not just fired, but also arrested, brought up on criminal charges and held civilly liable for all damages
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MDorBust
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
Not just fired, but also arrested, brought up on criminal charges and held civilly liable for all damages

Arrest for what?

Read the story again.

In the process of conducting his interview with people who had broken the law, the suspects went into their house and locked the door. Like the law or not, they did violate it. They committed a crime. Like it or not, they have to comply with the reasonable and lawful commands of an officer.. to present identification. The officer was performing his duty by asking for their identifications. They chose not to obey and locked themselves away from the officer.

Anyone want to recall for us the reasons a police officer is allowed to enter a dwelling without a warrant?
1) In pursuit of a suspect.

That's all you need right there.

If you are in the process of an interview with an officer, fleeing is not a good idea. And yes, locking yourself in your house is fleeing.

Now, could the officer have handled the situation better? Yes, most certainly. He sure does come off acting like an asshat, and I'd expect him to be fired for demonstrating exceptionally bad judgement... But, he wasn't acting in violation of the law when he broke down the door to go after the suspects.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Falcon84
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:13 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
Arrest for what?

Gee, I dunno: breaking and entering; attempted assult. That a good start MD? What gives that officer THE RIGHT to storm into someone's house.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
They committed a crime.

Read the article: "Under a rarely enforced state statute, it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag."

A MISDEMEANOR! Not even a jailable offense! And, for that, you think the officer has a RIGHT to invade their home?

Seig Heil, MDorBust!
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deltagator
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting AC773 (Thread starter):
I don't care if we're in rural Alabama

And I've met plenty of bassackwards inbred morons in parts of Canada so what exactly is your point bringing Alabama into this one other than to show your own bias and ignorance?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
They committed a crime. Like it or not, they have to comply with the reasonable and lawful commands of an officer.. to present identification. The officer was performing his duty by asking for their identifications. They chose not to obey and locked themselves away from the officer.

Got to agree here. Whether or not the officer was being a dick (and I'm guessing he probably was) he did ask them to show ID and that is a legitimate request. What happened after the homeowners closed the door on him seems to be up for debate but by not showing them their IDs they most definitely broke the law.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
MDorBust
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:23 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
What gives that officer THE RIGHT to storm into someone's house.

The accepted exemptions to the 4th Amendment Falcon.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Read the article: "Under a rarely enforced state statute, it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag."

Misdemeanors are still crimes, and they must still be investigated. This particular crime seems to be constitutional BS, but that isn't for the police to decide. It's for the courts to decide.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):

A MISDEMEANOR! Not even a jailable offense!

When did that happen?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Seig Heil, MDorBust!

Godwin on reply #4... that's just sad.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
N1120A
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):

In the process of conducting his interview with people who had broken the law, the suspects went into their house and locked the door. Like the law or not, they did violate it. They committed a crime.

Statutes banning the "desecration" of the American flag were ruled unconstitutional a long time ago. That "little used" statute is little used because it is invalid. Texas v. Johnson invalidated all flag desecration laws nearly 20 years ago.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
Like it or not, they have to comply with the reasonable and lawful commands of an officer.. to present identification.

The officer had no right to ask for ID because he had no reason to speak to them.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
he did ask them to show ID and that is a legitimate request.

No, it was not a legitimate request.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AirCop
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:38 am

Anyways the Sheriff office received the complaint, the address was in Asheville, so the sheriff's department should have handed the compliant to the local police for them to investigate. At least thats how it works in all the counties that I worked in. The stupid actions of the deputy will now involved the county getting sued which will result in time and resources wasted for the taxpayers. In my old department the officer would have been looking for a new career or at the very least be looking at a long unpaid vacation.
 
MDorBust
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:50 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Statutes banning the "desecration" of the American flag were ruled unconstitutional a long time ago. That "little used" statute is little used because it is invalid. Texas v. Johnson invalidated all flag desecration laws nearly 20 years ago.

If the law has been invalidated by the SCOTUS, I suggest the legislature should get busy striking it from the law books.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
The officer had no right to ask for ID because he had no reason to speak to them.

By the law book he was opertaing from he sure did.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
N1120A
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):
If the law has been invalidated by the SCOTUS, I suggest the legislature should get busy striking it from the law books.

And the police should get busy obeying their order and not enforcing an unconstitutional law.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):
By the law book he was opertaing from he sure did.

Except that he didn't, as above.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
AC773
Topic Author
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
what exactly is your point bringing Alabama into this one other than to show your own bias and ignorance?

Rural Alabama was just the first "remote" area that cane to mind. I'm not trying to generalize here, but many people in those areas can be strongly patriotic and strongly Conservative. Combined with the historical stereotype of limited accountability for rural law enforcement in those areas (that was my error), I typed "rural Alabama" after half a second of thought.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I apologize if I did.  Smile

And yes, we do have hicks in Canada.  silly 
Better to be nouveau than never to have been riche at all.
 
MDorBust
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 10):
And the police should get busy obeying their order and not enforcing an unconstitutional law.

Interesting.

You actually expect every officer to know all the decisions of the SCOTUS?

That's amusing.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
N1120A
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 12):
You actually expect every officer to know all the decisions of the SCOTUS?

About the tax and bankruptcy codes, no. About criminal laws, yes. Particularly if the decisions are almost 20 years old and involve fundamental rights. The Texas legislature may or may not have repealed their sodomy law yet, but you can't legally enforce that. It doesn't change with flag-based speech.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
jcs17
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:18 am

Hanging the flag upside down is legal, so is saying the n-word in downtown Detroit. However, don't be surprised when someone just decides to beat your ass. These "activists" knew exactly what they were doing and knew that it would piss the vast majority of people off. I love this quote from Debbie, "We said we had it out as a show of desperation — our country is in distress and we just don’t know what to do." So you hang a flag upside down? That's a huge help to the "distressed" nation. The only thing these activists had in mind was to make people mad and reply "It's our right to do it," when confronted about it.

The deputy had no right to do what he did. However, anti-war activist stupidity knows no bounds.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
MDorBust
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:25 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
The Texas legislature may or may not have repealed their sodomy law yet...

Have a look for yourself. Sec 21.06

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/petoc.html

Quote:
§ 21.06. HOMOSEXUAL CONDUCT.

[This section was declared unconstitutional by Lawrence v. Texas, 123 S.Ct. 2472.]

t(a) A person commits an offense if he engages in deviate sexual intercourse with another individual of the same sex.
t(b) An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

We keep our stuff current.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
It doesn't change with flag-based speech.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the constitutionality of the law.

I'm saying that there is no way for a patrol officer to keep up with current and past decisions of the SCOTUS and their applications the to state and local laws. That in and of itself can be a full time job. It is the job of the legislature to keep the law books current. As long as the officer is acting in good faith to execute what he believes are the applicable laws, he can't be found at fault. Now, if it turns out he did know about the decision, and the unconstitutional nature of the law, and decided to enforce it anyways he was no longer acting in good faith and I would agree he was abusive of his authority.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
deltagator
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 7):
Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
he did ask them to show ID and that is a legitimate request.

No, it was not a legitimate request.

Why not "oh great exalted expert of all laws on the book anywhere in the world at any given time?"

He was resonding to a report of a problem, which the sherriff's department says they respond to all of them. How was he to know that he wasn't dealing with a dangerous felon with outstanding warrants? Oh yeah...in your world he's just supposed to know. I'm not saying what he did was right but his request was reasonable and they didn't comply.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
csavel
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
Read the article: "Under a rarely enforced state statute, it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag."

A MISDEMEANOR! Not even a jailable offense! And, for that, you think the officer has a RIGHT to invade their home?



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 12):
Interesting.

You actually expect every officer to know all the decisions of the SCOTUS?

That's amusing.

No, but a *very major* first amendment case, which was front page news and still is FrontPage news, you betcha! Frankly I expect every *American* to know that, I know I expect too much.

Whether or not a cop has the right to ask for ID is way beyond this discussion unless you are a criminal lawyer. If you are "detained" but not arrested then the cop has the right to ask for ID. Examples are traffic stops or if you are detained because you look like a mugger. Cop may not have enough to arrest you or even take you down to the station house but he can ask for ID to ascertain whether or not you really are who you are etc., etc. This was settled in Nevada, I think when a father and daughter were having an argument in apick-up truck and a passing motorist called the cops. SCOTUS ruled it was a valid stop, a valid investigation and thus guy had to show ID. A cop CANNOT, however, just stop you on the street or knock at your door and ask for ID. In this case, the question is whether or not the cop was doing a valid investigation a la Nevada or the investigation was bogus and he knew it but decided to "investigate" because he didn't like the lefty hippie anti american freaks. Since the complaint was about a "desecration of an American flag" it seems at first glance that that didn't rise to a valid investigation, detention or anything else. Regardless of what people say, that first amendment law is settled and so well known that it is unbelievable that the cop doesn;t know that. A judge would be pretty curious as to why he didn't know that.

Courts give cops a lot of leeway but it isn't unlimited, else a cop can say he is "investigating" any time he wants to get a cute girls address or pick on someone he doesn't like or whose politics he doesn't like. Mind you most cops today are too busy to play games like that. I've come to respect cops a lot more. Anyway that is the law as much as I know. I hope lawyers can chime in and elaborate or flame the shit out of me - either way.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
cba
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 14):
Hanging the flag upside down is legal, so is saying the n-word in downtown Detroit. However, don't be surprised when someone just decides to beat your ass.

But these people were beaten by an officer of the law...

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 14):
The deputy had no right to do what he did. However, anti-war activist stupidity knows no bounds.

Even if it was a legitimate crime to have the flag upside down and the deputy was legally justified in entering the house to interview those inside, the fact that he broke in and proceeded to beat the inhabitants with a billy club is a clear cut case of police brutality. They did now show any violence against the deputy and he thus had no justification for resorting to it.
 
itsjustme
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:00 pm

Being that the incident occurred in the city of Asheville it's a bit odd that the deputy didn't simply turn it over to the Asheville PD. Especially given the nature of the complaint he received. Had it been something that warranted an immediate response, a life or death emergency for example, then I can understand the deputy responding and handling it. But for him to not even advise APD of the complaint and the fact that he would be handling it is strange. It almost seems as though he had a personal axe to grind. Also strange is this statement from the deputy's Lt: "A resident approached the deputy while he was on duty and alerted him to the flag" but he (the Lt.) did not know where the person approached the deputy or what the deputy was doing. Seems pretty vague to me. If Deputy Scarborough wanted to stand by while Asheville PD investigated the complaint, fine, but as a matter of professional courtesy as well as it being the normal thing to do, he should have notified Asheville PD and had them handle it. Or at least notified them and let them determine if they wanted to handle it or have the deputy respond. For whatever reason, he did neither.

The article also quotes the Lt. as saying, “We have jurisdiction throughout the whole county of Buncombe. “We have a citizen that complains to us about a violation of law, we’re bound by oath to act on it.”. What he doesn't say is "acting on it" can simply mean contacting the jurisdictional agency, in this case, Asheville PD and alerting them to the complaint received by the deputy. What would the Sheriff's office have done if they received a phone call about a barking dog in a city within their county that was 50 miles away? Would they dispatch a deputy to handle it or would they notify the city police department that holds the jurisdiction where the pooch lives?

However, being that the deputy chose to handle the incident alone, if the article I've quoted is accurate, it sounds like he was within his rights to request ID from the two individuals he suspected as being responsible for committing the crime he was investigating. The suspects refused to do so and, instead, barricaded themselves in their home, injuring the officer in the process. Not a real bright move.

Bottom line, when a police officer is investigating a crime at your home and requests to see your identification, it's probably not a good idea to slam the door in his face. As the Kuhn's found out, doing so will put you in a no-win situation.
 
Doona
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:29 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 15):
I'm saying that there is no way for a patrol officer to keep up with current and past decisions of the SCOTUS and their applications the to state and local laws.

I don't know how it is in the US, but in Sweden, ignorance of the law is not a defence for committing a crime. Theoretically, everyone is therefore obligated to know ALL laws (not that anyone does or indeed can). Which certainly sucks if you're in a situation like this, but I think it is the right way to go, otherwise the courtrooms would be flooded with the "I didn't know it was illegal"-bullshit.

Cheers
mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:24 pm

We all know what happened here. After the guy took down the flag he probably said something very rude to the officer and slammed the door on him. The officer got pissed and wanted a piece of the guy. When that guy would not come back out the officer broke in and assaulted the guy.
Was it right for the officer to beat the guy? No
Was the officer in the right to enter the house? maybe
What the officer should have done was call for back up. That would have put another officer on the scene. That officer would have probably had a more level head and handled the situation differently.
The first officer made the mistake in breaking into the house. He might have had the legal right to do so but it was a dumb dissuasion for two reasons.
1. The officer was not in control of his emotions and should have called for help in dealing with the situation.
2. The guy in the house could have had an arsenal and the cop would now be dead.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
itsjustme
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:53 pm

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 21):
We all know what happened here. After the guy took down the flag he probably said something very rude to the officer and slammed the door on him. The officer got pissed and wanted a piece of the guy. When that guy would not come back out the officer broke in and assaulted the guy.
Was it right for the officer to beat the guy? No
Was the officer in the right to enter the house? maybe
What the officer should have done was call for back up. That would have put another officer on the scene. That officer would have probably had a more level head and handled the situation differently.
The first officer made the mistake in breaking into the house. He might have had the legal right to do so but it was a dumb dissuasion for two reasons.
1. The officer was not in control of his emotions and should have called for help in dealing with the situation.
2. The guy in the house could have had an arsenal and the cop would now be dead.

Well, I guess we can lock this thread now. This case has been solved by someone who, not only wasn't there, but is several hundred miles away from where the incident took place. Well done!  sarcastic 
 
KaiGywer
Crew
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:29 pm

Nobody here knows the full story, so I'm not even gonna attempt to justify either the deputy or the activists. I will make a couple of comments though.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
A MISDEMEANOR! Not even a jailable offense!

From the North Caroline criminal code:

§ 14‑3. Punishment of misdemeanors, infamous offenses, offenses committed in secrecy and malice, or with deceit and intent to defraud, or with ethnic animosity.

(a) Except as provided in subsections (b) and (c), every person who shall be convicted of any misdemeanor for which no specific classification and no specific punishment is prescribed by statute shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor. Any misdemeanor that has a specific punishment, but is not assigned a classification by the General Assembly pursuant to law is classified as follows, based on the maximum punishment allowed by law for the offense as it existed on the effective date of Article 81B of Chapter 15A of the General Statutes:

(1) If that maximum punishment is more than six months imprisonment, it is a Class 1 misdemeanor;

(2) If that maximum punishment is more than 30 days but not more than six months imprisonment, it is a Class 2 misdemeanor; and

(3) If that maximum punishment is 30 days or less imprisonment or only a fine, it is a Class 3 misdemeanor.


http://www.ncleg.net/enactedlegislat...tes/html/bychapter/chapter_14.html

It goes on in more detail, but as you can see, a misdemeanor is indeed a jailable offense. Now, that of course does not mean every misdemeanor will get you put in jail, but you could...

Quoting Csavel (Reply 17):
A cop CANNOT, however, just stop you on the street or knock at your door and ask for ID

Careful with your words. A cop can indeed stop you and ask for your ID any time he wants. If you show it, that's your choice. If you don't want to show it, that is your right. Without justification, however, he cannot demand to see your ID.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 22):
Well done!

Thank you.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:36 pm

*Since the post was deleted earlier for the one of the reference posts being deleted, I'm trying to repost this the best I can as quick as I can*

Falcon84 (Reply 17)
And, it is. It's a free country, last time I checked. Maybe not in NC though.
Must be an NC thing.     The other day at work, I was told to remove my POW/MIA Lapel pin because it wasn't
"company approved" (I work at a restaurant in GSO)

Personally, I don't think the officer exercised good judgement in this case and did use excessive force. While I'm all about respect for flying the flag, these people were well within their rights. Did he really need ID that badly? He was atthe people's home. Could have easily pulled the information/identification in another way. Was it that slow of a day on the job that this guy had nothing better to concern himself with than this incident? I mean, according to the OP, the home-owners took the flag down, as requested. That's all the officer needed had to do was get these people to take the flag down and then leave. Had they not complied with taking down the flag, then the officer may have been within his limits, but that wasn't the case.

JCS17 (Reply 14)
That's a huge help to the "distressed" nation. The only thing these activists had in mind was to make people mad and reply "It's our right to do it."when confronted about it
Hey, I'd rather have these people doing something like this and "thinking" they are making a difference towards their views rather thanactually putting many of their true beliefs into action.

Garnetpalmetto (Reply 1)
Actually, Asheville has a reputation of being a fairly liberal haunt- lots of ex-counterculture types. 
  
Hendersonville to the south and the other surrounding areas are themore conservative area from what I can tell.

Falcon84 (Reply 4)
Seig Heil, MDorBust
Come on Falcon. I agree with your point of view on this issue, but the Nazi references for the actions of one officer are just a bit out of line.

[Edited 2007-08-02 16:52:35]
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
csavel
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 23):
Quoting Csavel (Reply 17):
A cop CANNOT, however, just stop you on the street or knock at your door and ask for ID

Careful with your words. A cop can indeed stop you and ask for your ID any time he wants. If you show it, that's your choice. If you don't want to show it, that is your right. Without justification, however, he cannot demand to see your ID.

You are absolutely right, and thanks for clarifying that. Should have said demand

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 21):
1. The officer was not in control of his emotions and should have called for help in dealing with the situation.
2. The guy in the house could have had an arsenal and the cop would now be dead.

Bingo! Frankly I think the cop was pissed off even when he came to the house to "investigate" because of the flag. I wasn't there but it sounds like the cop was looking to teach these people a lesson from the get-go.

A better way to handle it is when in New York, I saw a tow-truck towing a double parked car with the person in it. The cops were called because the DOT can't tow a car with the occupant in it and the guy (about 20) was refusing to get out.
Cop said basically, and I am paraphrasing.

"If you don't get out of the car, we will arrest you. We have no choice in the matter. We will have to put the cuffs on you. You'll go to Manhattan criminal court and probably have to sit in a cell for a few hours at least. You're gonna have to get a lawyer, call your parents to bail you out.

--guy bitches--

"Your car is already hooked up. It has to go. That's the law. If you don't get out I *have* to arrest you. That's the law. "

--guy bitches about the stupid DOT--

"Sir , you can plead not guilty. Here is where you plead not guilty on the ticket, just mail it in. If you're found guilty the city refunds the towing fee. just send it in. "

--guy says the law is stupid--

"Sir you can call your assembly man, you can call the mayor, hell you can *run* for mayor, you can call up the ACLU to fight it. Take it all the way to the supreme court if you want! If Bush and Gore can do it, so can you. But the law NOW says you have to get out and if you don't, the law NOW says I have to pull you out and arrest you. And if your in college and getting student loans you can kiss that goodbye. (don't know if that is actually true)
I'm gonna give you a few minutes to think about it."

Yep, guy got out of the car! Bitching and cursing but he did.

Granted the cop was unusually patient but it was New York's finest at its finest.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
MDorBust
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 20):
I don't know how it is in the US, but in Sweden, ignorance of the law is not a defence for committing a crime.

Generally same thing here. But, there is a defense called mistake of law, which summed up shortly says that if a legal authority tells you it's okay then you are mostly off the hook. In this case that legal authority would be the NC law book.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
N1120A
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 23):
A cop can indeed stop you and ask for your ID any time he wants.

They can ask, but they can't stop. A stop is a constitutional term, which implies someone is not free to leave. During an encounter, they can ask you what ever they want like any other member of society, but you can just say nothing to them and be on your merry way.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 15):

I'm saying that there is no way for a patrol officer to keep up with current and past decisions of the SCOTUS and their applications the to state and local laws.

A nearly 20 year old decision of major constitutional significance involving a fundamental right and determined under strict scrutiny. He damn well should have known about this decision. Just like he should know about Chimel when doing a search of a home and Miranda prior to conducting custodial interrogation.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 15):
As long as the officer is acting in good faith to execute what he believes are the applicable laws, he can't be found at fault.

Except that the good faith standard mirrors a reasonable person standard. He should have known that the law is invalid and he should have been trained to not enforce an invalid, unconstitutional law. He is at fault and his department is at fault.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 15):

Have a look for yourself. Sec 21.06

The section hasn't been expressly repealed, which is pretty sad.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 19):

However, being that the deputy chose to handle the incident alone, if the article I've quoted is accurate, it sounds like he was within his rights to request ID from the two individuals he suspected as being responsible for committing the crime he was investigating.

He was not investigating a crime. He had no right to be there and by using the constitutional formalities in an investigation (stop, detention, arrest, etc.), he further violated their civil rights.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 19):
The suspects refused to do so and, instead, barricaded themselves in their home, injuring the officer in the process.

Apparently you didn't read the article that well. Witnesses are siding with the victims here, not to deputy.

Quoting Csavel (Reply 26):
I wasn't there but it sounds like the cop was looking to teach these people a lesson from the get-go.

And that is his issue. He is the one who needs teaching

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
In this case that legal authority would be the NC law book.

Sorry, but that is trumped by the US constitution

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 27):
But, there is a defense called mistake of law, which summed up shortly says that if a legal authority tells you it's okay then you are mostly off the hook.

Mistake of law is rarely, if ever, a valid defense.
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MDorBust
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
A nearly 20 year old decision

Yes, a twenty year old decision. Making it even more unlikely to be in the minds of most people.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
The section hasn't been expressly repealed, which is pretty sad.

Uh... trouble reading?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 15):

§ 21.06. HOMOSEXUAL CONDUCT.

[This section was declared unconstitutional by Lawrence v. Texas, 123 S.Ct. 2472.]



Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
Except that the good faith standard mirrors a reasonable person standard.

Given the recent hype about trying to spread laws regarding flag burning I think you might find it hard to argue that a reasonable person knows for certain what the actual legal status of flag burning is.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
Sorry, but that is trumped by the US constitution

Yes, congratulation Sherlock.

Which is why it's called mistake of law. Because the law, in this case the law book, made a mistake.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
Mistake of law is rarely, if ever, a valid defense.

Because the law is rarely giving out incorrect information.
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deltagator
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
He was not investigating a crime.

According to the statutes, whether they be updated or not, he was investigating a potential crime based on a complaint from the neighbors.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
He had no right to be there and by using the constitutional formalities in an investigation (stop, detention, arrest, etc.),

He did have a right to be there to follow up on the complaint from the neighbors. Asking for their ID seems to be a reasonable request as I outlined earlier. How else is he to know that they are or are not the owners of the house or had outstanding warrants? His actions when they closed the door and ignored his legitimate request to see their IDs was definitley over the top and perhaps shouldn't have happened but we don't know all the details of the case.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
he further violated their civil rights.

That will be for the courts to decide. You of course are the greatest law student in the world so perhaps Buncombe County should just hire you to solve all their issues and cases and maybe you can even solve cancer while you're at it.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
cannibalz3
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:30 am

I can't speak to the specific legal ramifications of what that protester did or what that sheriff did, but it might benefit the thread to add a couple words about Asheville (where I go to univ.) and it's police force.

Asheville is a bastion of counterculture, known by (for lack of a better word) countercultural people all up and down the East coast. It is exceedingly common to see cars with all kinds of political bumper stickers. Even the graffiti in town is almost exclusively political. However, all this has built up within the last 20-30 years and stops outside city borders. The surrounding area is extremely conservative and rurally-minded.

The two populations come into conflict frequently, though it's generally confined to some harsh words and legal actions. An anti-war protest a couple of year ago, composed mainly of students, was broken up forcefully by the Asheville PD (which is composed mainly of surrounding-area locals). This led to the resignation and firing of several high-ranking officers. That was a one-time situation, but there is certainly no love lost between the populations.
 
itsjustme
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting CannibalZ3 (Reply 31):

Thanks for the insight. I guess that explains why APD and BCSO handled the situation in two completely different manners.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
He was not investigating a crime. He had no right to be there

Actually he was investigating a crime. NC State law reads, "It shall be unlawful for any person willfully and knowingly to cast contempt upon any flag of the United States or upon any flag of North Carolina by public acts of physical contact including, but not limited to, mutilation, defiling, defacing or trampling. Any person violating this section shall be deemed guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor." The Kuhns weren't being investigated for hanging the flag upside down, they were being investigated for desecrating it by pinning signs to it.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 28):
Apparently you didn't read the article that well. Witnesses are siding with the victims here, not to deputy.

Please read the article I quoted in Reply 19. There isn't any mention of witnesses siding with the victims. It also states the Deputy showed Mr. Kuhn a copy of the state law that addresses flag desecration, informed him he was being cited for violating said law, and asked for identification. Kuhn refused, slammed the door in the officer's face and assaulted him in the process and, well, you can read all about it here.
 
N1120A
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:29 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):

Yes, a twenty year old decision. Making it even more unlikely to be in the minds of most people.

Giving them all that much more notice about it.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):

Uh... trouble reading?

No trouble. It said "declared unconstitutional", not "repealed"

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):

Given the recent hype about trying to spread laws regarding flag burning I think you might find it hard to argue that a reasonable person knows for certain what the actual legal status of flag burning is.

No, it means that they absolutely should know.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 29):


Which is why it's called mistake of law. Because the law, in this case the law book, made a mistake.

Mistake of law is not a valid defense. The police officer's good faith exemption doesn't apply when violating someone's constitutional rights.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 30):
According to the statutes, whether they be updated or not, he was investigating a potential crime based on a complaint from the neighbors.

Updated? Try invalid for nearly 20 years.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 30):

He did have a right to be there to follow up on the complaint from the neighbors.

No he didn't, because the neighbors did not have a valid complaint.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 30):
How else is he to know that they are or are not the owners of the house or had outstanding warrants?

There was no legitimate reason to stop or arrest. He had no right to demand ID

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 30):
You of course are the greatest law student

I am not a law student

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 32):
The Kuhns weren't being investigated for hanging the flag upside down, they were being investigated for desecrating it by pinning signs to it.

"Desecration" is protected speech.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 32):
there isn't any mention of witnesses siding with the victims.

You didn't read the OP's article then

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 32):
Kuhn refused, slammed the door in the officer's face and assaulted him in the process an

No, the officer punched through the door, after kicking it several times, causing intentional property damage.
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itsjustme
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:47 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
You didn't read the OP's article then

Sure I did. But I like to get as much information about an incident as I can before voicing an opinion so I looked around for other reports. A concept you're apparently not familiar with.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
No, the officer punched through the door, after kicking it several times, causing intentional property damage.

Again, might I suggest you gather more information on the subject rather than just rely on one source before voicing an opinion? Oh wait. My bad. The article I quoted doesn't support your usual, "The police are wrong" attitude so why would you bother with looking further than just the one article? What WAS I thinking?
 
N1120A
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:52 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 34):
The article I quoted doesn't support your usual, "The police are wrong" attitude so why would you bother with looking further than just the one article?

You have no idea what my usual attitude is, so stop trying to guess.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
usnseallt82
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 14):

Most accurate statement out of this whole damn thread.  checkmark 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:04 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 32):
It also states the Deputy showed Mr. Kuhn a copy of the state law that addresses flag desecration,

Well, according to our in house lawyer (N1120A), this state law was deemed unconstitutional 20 years ago... So there was no crime... He had no business there...So who is the criminal?

Sorry Itsjustme, as far as state symbols and desecration of thereof I'm conservative. I have my opinion about the Kuhn's, however... deputy Scarborough screwed up by the numbers. He should simply let it go...Or ask for advice. His approach just gave ammunition to people calling the USA "police state". I don't really understand your and MDorBust's attitude. Such mishaps cast bad light onto the force. Nobody needs that, the law enforcement not and the public even less. There is nothing worse that the public not trusting the police force. I'm speaking from personal experience. That leads us to your next statement:

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 34):
The article I quoted doesn't support your usual, "The police are wrong" attitude

I lived in a country where the police was always right. Believe me, even if you're the one who's always right, you don't want to live in such country.
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MDorBust
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
No trouble. It said "declared unconstitutional", not "repealed"

Hey, if you want to keep believing that 21.06 has authority as a law, you just go on ahead and keep believing that.

The Texas legislature has meet for two full sessions since the decision.

In the first meeting they revoked the authority of 21.06 as a binding law by including the aforementioned text. Funny, revoke and repeal are synonyms

This session there was a bill to strike it from the law books. Unfortunately, it was only an amendment to a rather stupid bill that had to deal with abstinence only education and was defeated.

So yes, the law is repealed. And yes, it is still in the book. At least until 2009 when the legislature meets again.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
Giving them all that much more notice about it.

Uh huh, sure sure.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
No, it means that they absolutely should know.

Uh huh, sure sure.

Hey whatever. Apparently all officers are supposed to be constitutional scholars.

You just keep that delusion going.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
Mistake of law is not a valid defense.

Yes, it is a valid defense. If it wasn't a valid defense it wouldn't be in the law book as a valid defense.

Let's flip my law book open and check:

Chapter 8: General Defenses to Criminal Responsibility
...
8.03 Mistake of law


Oh heck, there it is. It is a valid defense after all.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 37):
I don't really understand your and MDorBust's attitude. Such mishaps cast bad light onto the force.

Uh, didn't I say in my first post that the officer handled the situation very poorly?

I'm not sure where people get the idea that I think the officer did a bang up job.

What I'm debating is whether the officer actually broke the law when he did his piss poor job.

Which he didn't, despite N1120As comical assertion that the common man knows the legal ramifications of SCOTUS decisions from two decades ago and should be reasonably expected to know their impact upon current standing laws.

Here's a much more reasonable approach. The common person trusts that the book of laws they are given by the legislature are actually the laws. Shocking, isn't it?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
itsjustme
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:14 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 37):

Well, according to our in house lawyer (N1120A), this state law was deemed unconstitutional 20 years ago... So there was no crime... He had no business there...So who is the criminal?

Did you bother to read the article I quoted? If not, please do so. There is absolutely no mention that the law the deputy was enforcing was deemed unconstitutional 20 years ago. The article does state this: "Sorrells said this is the first time he has seen the flag-desecration law enforced. He said it’s a difficult decision for an officer to weigh a resident’s right to free speech against another’s complaint of a law violation. “I think the officer did the appropriate thing by stating his intention to simply issue a citation and let it be worked out in court,” Sorrells said. “If Mr. Kuhn had simply complied with that request for identification and accepted the citation, we would have all gone about our way, and it could have been worked out in court. Once he assaulted the officer, it escalated very quickly.” Seems like the deputy handled it in a logical manner. Or at least tried to. He was at the Kuhn's residence to investigate a complaint he received that a crime was being committed. Believing there were grounds to cite the Kuhn's, he attempted to do so, thus giving them the option of disputing the charge in court. As we know from the reports, things quickly escalated from that point. Again, if you read the article I've quoted, you will note the Kuhn's took exception to being asked for their ID's. Whether or not the deputy was trying to enforce a law that didn't exist wasn't the issue.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 37):
deputy Scarborough screwed up by the numbers. He should simply let it go...Or ask for advice.

Whether or not the deputy screwed up has yet to be determined by a court of law. Regardless of what our "house attorney" says, I'll wait for an official ruling from the court. As for 'asking for advice", ask for advice from who? His own Lt. is obviously of the opinion the deputy had a legal right to be on the Kuhn's property.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 37):
His approach just gave ammunition to people calling the USA "police state"

Again, if you read the article from The Asheville Citizen Times, there is nothing to indicate the deputy's approach was inappropriate. He believed a crime had been committed and he was attempting to cite those he felt were responsible.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 37):
I don't really understand your and MDorBust's attitude.

What attitude are you referring to? If you read some of my past posts in other threads that address bad cops or heavy handed cops, you will find that I've been quite vocal about getting rid of them. I'm just not as eager as some here to to paint this particular officer as such. I prefer to wait and see how it pans out in the court system. Why do you and others have a problem with that? If it's found the officer was acting outside of the law, all charges will be dropped against the Kuhns, they'll file a civil suit against the deputy, his department, and the county and they'll be compensated for their anguish.

I just found this
update in the Asheville Citizen Times. At the request of the Sheriff's Office, all charges against the Kuhn's have been dropped. I assume a civil suit will be forth coming which the Kuhn's will win and they'll be compensated for their troubles.

[Edited 2007-08-03 09:25:28]
 
deltagator
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
No he didn't, because the neighbors did not have a valid complaint.

Whether or not the neighbors had a valid complaint the Sheriff's Department said they respond to every complaint. What transpired after he got there and assessed the situation is the problem.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 33):
I am not a law student

Did you finally graduate from your third tier law school?  Wink
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
Falcon84
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:08 am

I'll repeat here what I repeated on Airwhiners: I apologize to MDobust if he thought I was referring to him as a Nazi. I was not. For all our differences, I think he's a decent guy, and I could not ever compare him to a Nazi-nore any other law officer on this forum. That reference was put in in astonishment that some of you thought his actions-which I deem highly suspect-were appropriate. So, again, I apologize to him.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 40):
Whether or not the neighbors had a valid complaint the Sheriff's Department said they respond to every complaint. What transpired after he got there and assessed the situation is the problem.

I agree on that 100%

And glad to see all charges have been dropped. As for suing, just another money grab. I don't think they deserve compensation for this.
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N1120A
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 38):

Hey, if you want to keep believing that 21.06 has authority as a law, you just go on ahead and keep believing that.

No, it doesn't. But neither does the NC statute.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 38):

8.03 Mistake of law


Oh heck, there it is. It is a valid defense after all.

Well, the US Attorney's office doesn't think that Mistake of Law is a generally acceptable defense.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia...ding_room/usam/title9/crm02055.htm

"the defendant will be deemed to have made a mistake of law, which generally does not excuse criminal conduct"

Mistake of Law only can operate as a defense where it fully excuses culpable conduct. It cannot an element of a crime.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 38):

Which he didn't, despite N1120As comical assertion that the common man knows the legal ramifications of SCOTUS decisions from two decades ago and should be reasonably expected to know their impact upon current standing laws.

So a police officer is now the common man? I don't think so.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 40):

Did you finally graduate from your third tier law school?

No. I didn't graduate from a third tier law school

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):
As for suing, just another money grab. I don't think they deserve compensation for this.

He caused property damage, intentional personal injury and a violation of their civil rights. There damn sure should be compensation.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
itsjustme
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
He caused property damage

It has yet to be proven who caused the property damage. There are conflicting accounts as to how the damage occurred.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
intentional personal injury

Intentional? I believe it is the officer's contention that all injuries were a result of the Kuhn's failure to comply with the simple request to provide some ID. Has the officer been charged with assault? Has the officer been charged with anything? As usual, you're extremely premature in wanting this guy's head on a platter. How 'bout if we wait and see what the investigation reveals? If there was any intentional wrong doing on the part of the officer, then hopefully he'll be held accountable and appropriately disciplined.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
violation of their civil rights

Well, you're one for three. If you were playing in the majors, that'd be considered a pretty good average. Not bad I s'pose.
 
MDorBust
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
Well, the US Attorney's office doesn't think that Mistake of Law is a generally acceptable defense.

Second paragraph

Quote:
First, the defendant may offer evidence that he/she honestly, albeit mistakenly, believed he/she was performing the crimes charged in the indictment in cooperation with the government. More than an affirmative defense, this is a defense strategy relying on a "mistake of fact" to undermine the government's proof of criminal intent, the mens rea element of the crime. United States v. Baptista-Rodriguez, 17 F.3d 1354, 1363-68 (11th Cir. 1994); United States v. Anderson, 872 F.2d 1508, 1517-18 & n.4 (11th Cir.), cert. denied, 493 U.S. 1004 (1989); United States v. Juan, 776 F.2d 256, 258 (11th Cir. 1985). The defendant must be allowed to offer evidence that negates his/her criminal intent, id., and, if that evidence is admitted, to a jury instruction on the issue of his/her intent, id., and if that evidence is admitted, he is entitled to a jury instruction on the issue of intent. United States v. Abcasis, 45 F.3d 39, 44 (2d Cir. 1995); United States v. Anderson, 872 F.2d at 1517-1518 & n. In Anderson, the Eleventh Circuit approved the district court's instruction to the jury that the defendants should be found not guilty if the jury had a reasonable doubt whether the defendants acted in good faith under the sincere belief that their activities were exempt from the law.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
"the defendant will be deemed to have made a mistake of law, which generally does not excuse criminal conduct"

Did you want us not to check the full sentence on that one and hope you could pass it off to us?

The full version: "If the government official lacked actual or real authority, however, the defendant will be deemed to have made a mistake of law, which generally does not excuse criminal conduct."

Are you saying that the law of North Carolina (being the government entity in question) doesn't have actual and real authority?

That sentence is about a decision regarding if you can claim mistake of law when the authority giving you direction doesn't actually have legal authority. In this case the authority giving direction is the law of the state of North Carolina. I assure you, the law of the state of North Carolina does have authority.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):

Mistake of Law only can operate as a defense where it fully excuses culpable conduct. It cannot an element of a crime

It does fully excuse the officers conduct. If the officer has legal authority to perform his interview with the suspects, everything he did following that point is legal.

Stupid, but legal.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
So a police officer is now the common man? I don't think so.

We aren't?

Cool.

Hey Pep, you just got super powers.. N1120A says we no longer count as the common man.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
N1120A
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 43):
I believe it is the officer's contention that all injuries were a result of the Kuhn's failure to comply with the simple request to provide some ID.

They had a right not to comply because they hadn't done anything to obligate them to provide the ID. They also had a right to close their door on him. Given that witnesses back the victim's story here, and not the officer's, I tend to believe them.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 43):
As usual, you're extremely premature in wanting this guy's head on a platter.

Not at all. Violating the Constitution is something that should absolutely be taken seriously.
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itsjustme
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RE: NC Deputy Beats Down Activists In Their Home

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 45):
Violating the Constitution is something that should absolutely be taken seriously.

Really? Care to share that with our current administration? (sorry, couldn't resist)

We agree on this 100%. All I am saying is why not let the investigation be completed before making any assumptions? If the guy is truly a rogue cop then I can assure you, no one will be screaming louder for his dismissal and possible criminal charges than other police officers.

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