CaptOveur
Topic Author
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Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:48 am

Ok I am suddenly seeing ads everywhere about companies that reduce your "Carbon Footprint" I have even seen a few people mention it here.

So what the hell is a Carbon Footprint and why am I seeing it being used to market everything from cars to airline tickets?

A brief search and the useless similar topics feature turned nothing.
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charlienorth
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:51 am

It's the newest way to use guilt to seperate you from your money nothing more...think of it as modern indulgences
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
aloges
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:55 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Thread starter):
So what the hell is a Carbon Footprint

The amount of CO2 you produce per year. Of course that depends immensely on how you calculate it.  Wink Cutting emissions doesn't hurt, however, so it's not completely meritless.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
charlienorth
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 2):
Cutting emissions doesn't hurt, however, so it's not completely meritless.

Making a personal effort to cut emissions isn't a bad idea at all,but you're a real Gomer if you pay for carbon credits.
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
deltagator
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 3):
Making a personal effort to cut emissions isn't a bad idea at all,but you're a real Gomer if you pay for carbon credits.

I don't have a problem per se with the carbon credits. Yes, they are a modern day indulgence but if done correctly it's fine by me if you want to spend money that way. I only question the companies behind the whole thing and wonder who is policing them to ensure they are in fact doing what they say they are doing by planting trees and such.
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GuitrThree
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 2):
Cutting emissions doesn't hurt, however, so it's not completely meritless.

Sure its merit-less. It's simply a farce for Hollywood Stars or Liberal Politicians who go around telling us "regular people" how to be carbon-neutral, while they are flying around in private jets, riding in huge limos, and living in big castles while buying a few "carbon credits" which amounts to a few trees being planted.

Carbon Credits and those who believe in them are utterly simply beyond any type of common sense reasoning. Carbon Dioxide is a naturally occurring gas that is nothing more than plant food. The more the CO2, the more the plants prosper. The more the plants prosper, the more they "naturally clean the air."

Carbon Credits are yet just another way liberals can get their hands on your money. Nothing more, nothing less. If you feel the need to buy them, be my guest. I for one will never fall for such foolishness.

[Edited 2007-08-15 01:11:49]
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MDorBust
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 5):
Carbon Credits are yet just another way liberals can get their hands on your money.

It's especially funny when you find out that the people pushing for the carbon credits are the ones that own the companies they want you to buy from.

Generation Investment Management LLP
http://www.generationim.com/about/team.html

Quote:
The firm was created in 2004 by six founding Partners:

Hon. Al Gore is Chairman;

David Blood, the former CEO of Goldman Sachs Asset Management, is Managing Partner;

Mark Ferguson, previously co-Head of Pan-European Research at Goldman Sachs Asset Management and a Global Equities Portfolio Manager, is Chief Investment Officer;

Peter Harris, previously head of International Operations for Goldman Sachs Asset Management, is Chief Operating Officer;

Peter S. Knight, formerly Managing Director Met West Financial, lawyer, Chief of Staff for Senator Al Gore (D-TN) from 1977-1989, and Campaign Manager for President Clinton's successful re-election in 1996, is President of Generation U.S.; and

Colin le Duc, previously Director of Research for SAM Sustainable Asset Management in Zurich and strategy consultant for Arthur D. Little in London, is Head of Research.
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Yellowstone
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:18 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 5):
Carbon Dioxide is a naturally occurring gas that is nothing more than plant food. The more the CO2, the more the plants prosper. The more the plants prosper, the more they "naturally clean the air."

Unless of course those plants get destroyed by desertification, urban expansion, clear-cutting of forests, etc. Sure, there is some degree of negative feedback, but it can only do so much.

Anyway, the idea behind a carbon footprint is that it represents how much carbon dioxide you and the products you use generate. Per capita, first world nations tend to have large ones. Of course, having a billion and a half people with smaller ones isn't that great either.

As far as the Carbon Credit thing - I don't see how that can work unless you cap the number of credits available and force all CO2 generators to buy them. Let the industries who can clean up easily sell off theirs to the ones who can't, and the market will (hopefully) allocate the "right to pollute" effectively. Or we could all just go plant some trees on our own, and tidy up our footprints that way.
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deltagator
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:26 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 7):
Or we could all just go plant some trees on our own, and tidy up our footprints that way.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Tell him what he's won Don Pardo...
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GuitrThree
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 7):
force all CO2 generators to buy them

Translation= "Force Taxes upon business/citizens."

This is no different than taxing smokers to pay for children's health care.
Like I said, yet another way for the Liberals to get their hands on your money.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 7):
Let the industries who can clean up easily sell off theirs to the ones who can't

So, let's say, an industry that produces little CO2, like, um, insurance companies, etc, get free money, while industries like Airlines, any type of factory work, and trucking industry, all must PAY extra taxes because of some unproven theory? Really?

I'm all for clean air and making sure industry is as clean as possible, but to say for an industry like the Airlines who pay gazillion dollars in taxes from fuel, to profit, to everything else they buy, need to on top of that pay yet another tax because Al Gore says so is simply unbelievable.
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SlamClick
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:40 am

Just a guess, but possibly pre-labeling it "crap" might, just might be offputting to those who believe in it, and therefore presumably might be equipped to discuss it with you.

You know, kind of like Bill Maher's standing invitation to conservative opinion leaders to be guests on his panel surrounded by three or four liberals - all to be edited before airing by the liberal host's staff.

It is a matter of incentive.
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kaddyuk
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:29 am

I dont have a carbon footprint because I drive EVERYWHERE!!
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aloges
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:45 pm

I should have known this would turn into the 240,000th "liberal vs conservative" war in no time. Pathetic!  sarcastic  Can't you take your partisan crap elsewhere just one damned time?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
andz
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:53 pm

After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
bill142
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Thread starter):

Climate Change is just a Corporate and Political fad.
 
jamincan
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:11 pm

Well, I've heard it all. It seems global warming is just a Liberal conspiracy to get their hands on our money.  Yeah sure

There are all sorts of expenses to doing business. Paying taxes, paying for gas, paying for employees, &c. But when it comes to the environment, it seems that we see it as a bottomless pit that we can freely throw our garbage in. Nevermind that the scientific community is actually speaking with one voice on this issue. Instead, people just cover their ears and dismiss it as an "unproven theory" because some schmuck paid by Exxon-Mobil says it ain't so.
 
aloges
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:39 pm

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 15):

You speak the truth, but expect to be flamed for it. This thread is not at all representative of a.netters' opinions on global warming, those of us who do realise it's a problem are just tired of explaining it over and over again only to be disparaged for it.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
halls120
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:45 pm

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 1):
It's the newest way to use guilt to seperate you from your money nothing more

 rotfl 

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 15):
Nevermind that the scientific community is actually speaking with one voice on this issue.

Not true. There are dissenting views - as to the exact cause of global warming - but those that don't sign on to the prevailing view that it is all the fault of evil humans are castigated and berated.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ZakHH
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:05 pm

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 15):
Instead, people just cover their ears and dismiss it as an "unproven theory" because some schmuck paid by Exxon-Mobil says it ain't so.

What do you expect from people who seriously want to ban the theory of evolution from class, only to teach the creation theory again...

It is just so much more convenient to ignore and deny unpleasant knowledge, and replace it with belief that fuels my convenient needs. Knowledge is a strong power, but ignoring knowledge can just make life so damn much easier.

The "carbon footprint" thing may have its weak spots. And I'd actually not expect anyone to buy any credits or certificates to make up for his energy consumption. Ecologic indulgence won't help solving the problem.

But it does not hurt to have a look at your everyday life and check where emissions could easily be reduced, without major inconveniences attached to it. It does not even have to cost money. In fact, it will often help to save money.

But that's the downside - you actually have to use your brain for that. And it is just so much easier to blame it all on the liberals and their attempt to steal my money. Global warming? Who cares! Everybody loves warm and sunny weather.
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airfoilsguy
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:11 pm

I am personally trying to make my footprint as large as possible.  duck 

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frequentflyer
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:16 pm

For all interested in the subject at hand instead of the usual stupid political bickering, I suggest you read Newsweek's last week's issue on Climate change and its deniers. It looks like the deniers are doomed. (Per Newsweek they were complete puppets of the Bush 43 administration, itself slave to Oil Industry for obvious reasons)
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halls120
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:41 pm

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 20):
For all interested in the subject at hand instead of the usual stupid political bickering, I suggest you read Newsweek's last week's issue on Climate change and its deniers. It looks like the deniers are doomed. (Per Newsweek they were complete puppets of the Bush 43 administration, itself slave to Oil Industry for obvious reasons)

And for an alternate view on the Newsweek story....

Quote:
We in the news business often enlist in moral crusades. Global warming is among the latest. Unfortunately, self-righteous indignation can undermine good journalism. A recent Newsweek cover story on global warming is a sobering reminder.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2007/08/14/AR2007081401331.html
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
deltagator
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:46 pm

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 20):
Per Newsweek

Ah, so if Newsweek prints it then it just has to be true.  sarcastic 

Note - Not supporting Dubya or the oil industry. Just pointing out the obvious bias of the poster.

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 15):
Instead, people just cover their ears and dismiss it as an "unproven theory" because some schmuck paid by Exxon-Mobil says it ain't so.

Some people do exactly that. Some of the us actually think that the cyclical cycle of the earth's climate might have something to do with it in addition to the human influence but we are dismissed as snake oil salesmen from the get go.
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scbriml
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 11):
I dont have a carbon footprint because I drive EVERYWHERE!!

 rotfl 

While I seriously doubt the benefit of buying "carbon credits", there is clearly value in "carbon offsets". As such, my family has completely offset our carbon footprint with the N'nabadingi tribe in Upper Volta.
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CaptOveur
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:12 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 10):
Just a guess, but possibly pre-labeling it "crap" might, just might be offputting to those who believe in it, and therefore presumably might be equipped to discuss it with you.

Valid point.. That was just the phrase that sprung to mind when someone was offering to sell carbon credits along with an airline ticket. Hindsight being 20/20 I probably should have rephrased.

That aside: The more I think about it the more I want to go sit in my driveway and let my car idle all day.

Anyway.. Does anyone know what formula is used to calculate a carbon footprint? That is the part that baffles me.. People talk about size of a carbon footprint but I haven't seen anyone mention how they figured it out.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:42 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 24):
That aside: The more I think about it the more I want to go sit in my driveway and let my car idle all day.

Why idle? Let it run in neutral on full throttle.  Yeah sure
 
deltagator
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 24):
Anyway.. Does anyone know what formula is used to calculate a carbon footprint? That is the part that baffles me.. People talk about size of a carbon footprint but I haven't seen anyone mention how they figured it out.

Google online for a calculator. I've used one before but found it to be flawed. It didn't take into account various items such as multiple people in a house and dual cars for a family. If anything it makes your number lower.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 22):
Quoting Jamincan (Reply 15):
Instead, people just cover their ears and dismiss it as an "unproven theory" because some schmuck paid by Exxon-Mobil says it ain't so.

Some people do exactly that. Some of the us actually think that the cyclical cycle of the earth's climate might have something to do with it in addition to the human influence but we are dismissed as snake oil salesmen from the get go.

Some other people try to stick to facts and understand the science. And they are labeled as pro-media gullible, at times even extreme-left from the get-go.  Big grin
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deltagator
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 23):
While I seriously doubt the benefit of buying "carbon credits", there is clearly value in "carbon offsets".

Explain the difference as you see it because I think a lot of folks consider offsets and credits the same thing.

Unless you mean the ability to buy "credits" from other companies with lower emissions so your company can continue to fart up the atmosphere...then I kind of see your point.

Quoting Frequentflyer (Reply 27):
Some other people try to stick to facts and understand the science. And they are labeled as pro-media gullible, at times even extreme-left from the get-go.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.  Wink
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aloges
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 24):
The more I think about it the more I want to go sit in my driveway and let my car idle all day.

Why would you waste your hard-earned money on burning petrol uselessly just to "stick it" to people you believe to be loonies anyway? Pretty spiteful, even though you weren't being entirely serious.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 28):
Explain the difference as you see it because I think a lot of folks consider offsets and credits the same thing.

They may be in some respects, but in theory, you would offset your carbon deficit with someone who has a carbon surplus. Now, the person with the surplus may want some form of payment, but at least you're not buying "credits" from a company that you have no real way of knowing what they're doing with your money.
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deltagator
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 30):
They may be in some respects, but in theory, you would offset your carbon deficit with someone who has a carbon surplus. Now, the person with the surplus may want some form of payment, but at least you're not buying "credits" from a company that you have no real way of knowing what they're doing with your money.

Ok, on the same page now. Exactly what I said earlier about the whole carbon credit thing as a modern day indulgence and wondering who polices the legitimacy of them.
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Flighty
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:53 am

I think actually Carbon Credits are a very conservative idea.

Liberals might say "gee, I can drive my SUV all day long and we should all have infinite use of world resources" while conservatives might think that new idea is quite dangerous.

It really depends how you frame the debate. But liberals, if anything, want to give the common man more, not less. Conservatives realize not everyone can gorge themselves on gasoline and money and have our country remain afloat.

Are conservatives doing their job, no, but not because of their principles. It's because of corruption. An honest conservative politician would be very protective of our national assets. Not just give them away willy-nilly to anyone who whines for it. That includes our CO2 allotment.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 1):
It's the newest way to use guilt to seperate you from your money nothing more...think of it as modern indulgences

 checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 5):
It's simply a farce for Hollywood Stars or Liberal Politicians who go around telling us "regular people" how to be carbon-neutral, while they are flying around in private jets, riding in huge limos, and living in big castles while buying a few "carbon credits" which amounts to a few trees being planted.

 checkmark 

Quoting Aloges (Reply 16):
those of us who do realise it's a problem are just tired of explaining it over and over again only to be disparaged for it.

...in part due to how much those of us who realize that said "problem" isn't going to halt nor reverse itself should we buy Priuses instead of Tahoes, live in an efficiency instead of an estate, or ride Amtrak instead of Airtran--- love disparaging you for it  Wink
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
slider
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:02 am

I won't buy carbon credits.

I'll just use the ones that some tribe in Africa isn't using.  Wink
 
MaidensGator
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 18):
What do you expect from people who seriously want to ban the theory of evolution from class, only to teach the creation theory again...

I hadn't realized that the global warming theory was proven to the same degree as evolution. We all know they didn't make any mistakes in the theory of evolution... or did they???

New Kenyan Fossils Challenge Established Views On Early Evolution Of Our Genus Homo

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070813093132.htm

I'm not advocating that only creationism be taught, or denying that the planet is getting warmer. I'm simply pointing out that it's not accurate to maintain that science already has all the answers about global warming or evolution
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Yellowstone
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:19 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 30):
but in theory, you would offset your carbon deficit with someone who has a carbon surplus. Now, the person with the surplus may want some form of payment, but at least you're not buying "credits" from a company that you have no real way of knowing what they're doing with your money.

This is the model I was talking about earlier. The idea behind pollution credits is that businesses can choose whether to spend money to reduce their emission of pollutants, or they can buy credits from other firms who can reduce their emissions at a lower cost than the price of the credit. That way, instead of just saying "Everyone cut your emissions by 10%," the reduction can be properly allocated to those firms who can achieve the desired total reduction with the least negative economic effect.
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David L
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:57 pm

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 35):
I hadn't realized that the global warming theory was proven to the same degree as evolution. We all know they didn't make any mistakes in the theory of evolution... or did they???

New Kenyan Fossils Challenge Established Views On Early Evolution Of Our Genus Homo

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...2.htm

Who ever said there were no mistakes in the Theory of Evolution? The new findings don't alter the scientific evidence that evolution is real.

"Proof" of man-made global warming isn't even close to being in the same league and that's not really surprising since "proof" of what happened in the past tends to be a bit easier to achieve than "proof" of what's going to happen in the future or often of what's happening now.
 
Klaus
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:40 pm

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 35):
I hadn't realized that the global warming theory was proven to the same degree as evolution. We all know they didn't make any mistakes in the theory of evolution... or did they???

New Kenyan Fossils Challenge Established Views On Early Evolution Of Our Genus Homo

You've quoted an article about a probable minor readjustment of our knowledge about the evolutionary relationship between early hominids.

There is absolutely nothing in this piece which casts the slightest doubt on the validity of the evolution theory, quite the opposite: Empirical information is being (re)sorted into the evolutionary tree. That's it.

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 35):
I'm not advocating that only creationism be taught, or denying that the planet is getting warmer. I'm simply pointing out that it's not accurate to maintain that science already has all the answers about global warming or evolution

No, and science will always advance the limits of knowledge so this will always be the case.

The evolution theory, however, is by now so fundamentally sound and validated by millions of tests and findings that beyond peripheral readjustments like the one above the principle is very unliklely to be found incorrect after all that.

Anthropogenic climate change is still a relatively young theory compared to evolution, but it has already passed from a wild guess through initial concepts through substantial testing and validation and is by now a rapidly solidifying one.

Are there still some mistakes and will some of the findings still be challenged and overturned? Absolutely.

Is the fundamental concept likely to be found incorrect? That is looking more and more unlikely by the hour.
 
ZakHH
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:33 pm

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 35):
I hadn't realized that the global warming theory was proven to the same degree as evolution.



Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 35):
I'm simply pointing out that it's not accurate to maintain that science already has all the answers about global warming or evolution

Did I imply this? If so, then I probably did not make myself clear.

But do you think that the scientific recognition we have should be completely disregarded, just because it is not perfect in every aspect?

It reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Bart discovers a meteor that is heading straight towards Springfield. When it finally turns out that the meteor is mostly vaporized in the athmosphere, and instead of the whole town being smashed, only a tiny stone hits the ground, the angry mob is heading towards the observatory to burn it down and thus make sure that something alike will never happen again.

Denying the results of scientific research will not help solving the problem. But of course, it's so much easier to just say "this is not enough for me" and go on living carelessly, instead of spending some thoughts on how you could show a bit more responsibility.

It's all about convenience. That is actually the reason why these credit things work (for the seller, of course) - they serve convenience. You pay for getting rid of your bad conscience. It worked with letters of indulgence worked in medieval times, and it works with carbon credits today.
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ZakHH
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Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:32 pm

RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting MaidensGator (Reply 35):
I'm simply pointing out that it's not accurate to maintain that science already has all the answers about global warming or evolution

After posting my above comments, I read another good example for the discussed topic.

NASA just had to correct their climate statistics. Had they so far named 1998 as warmest year since recording started in 1880, they now stand corrected - 1934 was actually warmer.

Of course, this is perfect fuel for those who would deny the global warming theory. Even though the correction still leaves the general statistic trend fully intact.

It shows that science is not perfect, but whenever mistakes have to be corrected, it will usually affect only some detail aspects, and rarely the big picture.
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slider
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Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 39):
You pay for getting rid of your bad conscience.

Bingo...

The politics of guilt. Nothing more, nothing less.

A fool and his money are soon parted. It's so laughable, this makes for great entertainment because these do-gooders don't realize how ridiculous they are. Dupes, all of 'em.
 
ZakHH
Posts: 1570
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 41):
A fool and his money are soon parted. It's so laughable, this makes for great entertainment because these do-gooders don't realize how ridiculous they are. Dupes, all of 'em.

But you cannot be so narrow-minded to reduce the whole discussion to this credits thing?
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Klaus
Posts: 20594
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 41):
The politics of guilt. Nothing more, nothing less.

No. A functioning market for emission certificates requires both demand and supply. And supply in this case consists of certified emission reductions, paid for by the buyers.

This market is still in its infancy and there are plenty of opportunities for criticism at this stage, but the net effect is/will be an actual reduction of emissions.

One of the reasons why german technology exports are booming is that environmental pressure has translated into economical pressure and that in turn has translated into increased efficiency through technological improvements which give many products an additional edge in many markets.

Wallowing in wasteful and decaying technology has never been smart; And emission trading merely adds much-needed pressure to a development which would have been necessary for purely economical reasons anyway - just at even greater cost to the environment.
 
slider
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 42):

But you cannot be so narrow-minded to reduce the whole discussion to this credits thing?

I didn't say that. But that's a topic for another thread.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 43):
but the net effect is/will be an actual reduction of emissions.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Carbon trading is a shell game. High end consumers will simply do what they will, there's no consequence. This is just organized peer pressure thuggery at its finest.
 
Klaus
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:11 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 44):
Assumes facts not in evidence.

How so? It would only be that if there was an endless supply of emission certificates, which is not the case.

Quoting Slider (Reply 44):
High end consumers will simply do what they will, there's no consequence.

How so? It is a very much real fact of life over here - and the consequences are already in evidence.

Quoting Slider (Reply 44):
This is just organized peer pressure thuggery at its finest.

No. It simply makes waste and pollution expensive for those who indulge in them. Which is the whole point.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 45):
How so? It would only be that if there was an endless supply of emission certificates, which is not the case.

Tell that to these jokers:

http://www.carbonfootprint.com/index.html

They want $589.00 annually to offset what they claim is my carbon footprint. Notice no where in their carbon footprint calculator is a line for: How much natural growth land do you own?



But wait, what do I get for my $589?

Quote:
offset CO2 emissions

help to reduce poverty

provide wildlife habitats

create a brighter future for orphans and people living with HIV / AIDS

Poverty and AIDS? WTF? It's just a grab bag for feel good causes.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Klaus
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 46):
They want $589.00 annually to offset what they claim is my carbon footprint. Notice no where in their carbon footprint calculator is a line for: How much natural growth land do you own?

Unless you're actually turning formerly infertile land into new natural growth you're contributing nothing to a reduction of your CO2 emissions, regardless how much land you own.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 46):
Poverty and AIDS? WTF? It's just a grab bag for feel good causes.

Well, ideally several problems which all relate to the large-scale destruction of CO2 sinks can be alleviated at the same time if the projects are well designed. Whether that actually works in practice already is another story.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 47):
Unless you're actually turning formerly infertile land into new natural growth you're contributing nothing to a reduction of your CO2 emissions, regardless how much land you own.

Ahh.. so plants already in existence don't process CO2?

Wait, that makes no sense. In fact, that's pure  redflag . Of course plants already in existence offset CO2. That's part of the problem behind this whole mess, people actually fall for stuff like that. Pre-existing plant growth negates X amount of CO2 annually. Unless I exceed X production of CO2 annually, my already existing plant growth will take care of my Carbon Footprint. Only if I exceed X annually will I need additional plant growth. And here's the real kicker, I don't need that am mount of extra plant growth annually.

The previous website claims that I need to provide for the growth of 31 trees each year. Wait, am I growing at that rate? No, of course not. Three years down the line I'll have 93 trees, but I'll still only be producing the CO2 for 31. Yup, they're scamming.

Needless to say, I've got a few more than 31 trees already, so I'm more than covered. But that website sure isn't going to tell me that since then I wouldn't buy their product. That's all this really is after all, a product.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 47):
Well, ideally several problems which all relate to the large-scale destruction of CO2 sinks can be alleviated at the same time if the projects are well designed.

AIDS is related to CO2?

I have 900 acres of natural growth, am I to assume that AIDS just leaps right the heck out of anyone on my property? Of course not. Planting trees does nothing for AIDS. It's a feel good ploy.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Someone Explain This "Carbon Footprint" Crap.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 48):
Ahh.. so plants already in existence don't process CO2?

You're not doing anything against your net CO2 pollution unless you do your share of reducing total CO2 output or increasing total CO2 reduction.

A change of ownership of an existing piece of land that has before and still is converting CO2 is completely neutral regarding the total CO2 load.

Unless you're returning previously barren land to being a CO2 sink, you're doing nothing about the total CO2 (im)balance.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 48):
AIDS is related to CO2?

Both the spread of AIDS and the destruction of natural forests are related to poverty and unsustainable economical systems in the third world. Some projects tackle the entire system of problems instead of just a single symptom.

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