PAHS200
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Tax On Bottled Water

Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:50 pm

http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/local_story_226071318.html

I saw this on CNN.
Chicago, SanFran, and New york all want to put a tax on bottled water..

will this stop you from buying?

michael
 
Nancy
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:00 pm

I think a tax would be dumb, but I do think the bottles should have a five cent return just like soda bottles.
 
Pope
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting PAHS200 (Thread starter):
will this stop you from buying?

Absolutely not. Taxes are good. The economy needs taxes of all sorts. They'll ensure that the rich don't "soak" the poor. In fact by raising taxes the consumption of bottled water should go up based on the arguments of most liberals. The additional tax revenue can be used to fun government programs to purchase bottled water for the disadvantaged in society so that everyone can have equal access to bottled water.

In fact, why doesn't the government take over the entire bottled water industry. Only then can we be assured of access to bottled water for all.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:32 pm

No. Better would be deposits as done with other beverage containers to encourage recycling or expand recycling programs in garbage collection. Some states, I believe Maine is one of them, requires deposits on certain juice containers so adding water containers would only be a small addition. Part of such proposed taxation of water bottles is to get some money to pay for the additional burden on garbage collections and to temper demand.
 
PAHS200
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 2):
Taxes are good.

 no 

if you work hard you should be able to keep all the money you make

please explain why someone who works hard should get their money tanking away and given to someone who haven't worked hard
 
Go3Team
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting PAHS200 (Reply 4):
if you work hard you should be able to keep all the money you make

Hmmm, I caught the sarcasm, I guess it was a too much.
Yay Pudding!
 
Pope
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 5):
Hmmm, I caught the sarcasm, I guess it was a too much.

 checkmark 
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
aloges
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 2):

I take it you mix your Kool Aid with tap water? Or are you just being  grumpy  for the day?  Wink

Quoting PAHS200 (Reply 4):
if you work hard you should be able to keep all the money you make

 rotfl  Then who will pay for roads, schools, law enforcement, firefighters, courts, defence and so on?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ShannoninAMA
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:24 am

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 5):
Hmmm, I caught the sarcasm, I guess it was a too much.

I caught it too, but really all you have to do is look at the poster Big grin
Shipwreck alert. Head on over to Airspaceonline.com.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 7):

rotfl Then who will pay for roads, schools, law enforcement, firefighters, courts, defence and so on?

Who already pays for all those things?  Wink

Tip: Nope, not the government! They just manage it.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Pope
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:40 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 7):
I take it you mix your Kool Aid with tap water?

Personally I really like tap water. Now I'm fortunate enough to live in Northern Florida where much of the tap water for several bottle water companies is "harvested" from the many springs in the area. But even when I lived in South Florida I enjoyed tap water. The only place that I've really not liked the tap water was Marco Island, Florida. It always tasted like sand to me.

Even when I was in Atlanta, which supposedly has very poor water quality I had no problem with tap water.

I find it insane to pay more for bottled water than gas on a gallon to gallon basis.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
aloges
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):
Nope, not the government! They just manage it.

Ding! We have a winner! We pay for it through our taxes. If nobody paid any, there would be no of the stuff I mentioned and no democracy either. Just imagine if we had to pay for voting!  crazy 

Quoting Pope (Reply 10):
I find it insane to pay more for bottled water than gas on a gallon to gallon basis.

So you agree you should be charged higher taxes on petrol?  duck   Wink
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting PAHS200 (Thread starter):
will this stop you from buying?

Nope, the fact that Anchorage has some of the purest drinking water in the country is enough to stop me from buying it.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
PAHS200
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 5):
Hmmm, I caught the sarcasm, I guess it was a too much.

no sarcasm, sir

just the idea of giving money to the gov. and the gov giving your money to the people who didn't work hard in school or just are lazy..just seems stupid
 
Pope
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 11):
So you agree you should be charged higher taxes on petrol?

No. My statement is true even in the US where petrol taxes are low in comparison to Western Europe.

It seems to me that what is being taxed here is the wrong thing. After my previous post I read the FAST COMPANY article (in the magazine not online) about the bottled water industry. The article says that its a $15B industry and results in plastic with a recyclable value of $1B/year being put into landfills. It seems to me that there should be a sizeable bottle deposit collected at the point of sale (not 5 cent/bottle but something substantive - call it $1/bottle or so). When the bottle is returned, the 95 cents is returned to the person with the bottle and the person processing the return gets to keep 5 cents for processing the transaction. This seems perfect for some sort of automatic machine (almost a reverse vending machine).

The industry would not be taxed, the consumer would pay a small premium and the environment would be saved from a lot of landfill space being wasted.

The returned bottles could be recycled with the merchant who process the returns receiving the $1B of money that is now literally thrown away. This $1B would be included in taxable income thereby generating marginal tax revenue for the government. Perhaps the government could offer a lower tax rate for recycling income thereby encouraging the process.

The environment wins, business wins, the consumer wins (though lower taxes as opposed to the original plan) and industry wins. The waste, both figuratively and literally, is taken out of the system.

edit - http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/.../features-message-in-a-bottle.html the article on-line

[Edited 2007-08-15 20:13:36]
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:15 am

Uh... stupid logic at work.

Putting a tax on bottled water will cause people to buy less bottled water.. but increasing accross the board taxes won't have a negative impact on the economy because people won't change spending habits...  banghead 
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
PPVRA
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 11):

Ding! We have a winner! We pay for it through our taxes. If nobody paid any, there would be no of the stuff I mentioned and no democracy either. Just imagine if we had to pay for voting!

Imagine if taxes weren't mandatory. Would you voluntarily pay them?

I would, and I think many would. Considering the hell it would be otherwise I think most of us would. I want my rights to be protected, and I think most of us do too, and I understand that costs money. It's all a question of how much you value what is being provided.

Oh and btw, the existence of the services you mentioned above don't require government except courts and law enforcement, and probably firefighters. Even defence should be ok (but not optimal/efficient IMO), if you consider the many quite successful insurgency campaigns we have seen in the past (and even currently).
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
aloges
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
It seems to me that there should be a sizeable bottle deposit collected at the point of sale (not 5 cent/bottle but something substantive - call it $1/bottle or so).

I find the amount a bit high, but that's somewhat off topic. It's a 25 ct deposit here for single use plastic bottles and beer cans here, seems to work rather well.

Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
This seems perfect for some sort of automatic machine (almost a reverse vending machine).

Pardon my smugness, but you're describing the exact situation finally found in Germany. Our previous government (social democrats and greens) introduced the mandatory deposit and after a lot of chaos the industry finally got around to adopting a unified system that allows you to return any container at any place that sells single use containers. You put your bottles in the machine, it scans them, shreds them, stores them and prints a receipt. It's bit smelly at times, but it works.

Quoting Pope (Reply 14):
The returned bottles could be recycled with the merchant who process the returns receiving the $1B of money that is now literally thrown away.

Nice idea. IIRC we ship a lot of our used bottles to China where they make all sorts of stuff out of them.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Pope
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 16):
Imagine if taxes weren't mandatory. Would you voluntarily pay them?

I would, and I think many would.

Nothing presently inhibits or prohibits you from sending the Treasury of your country more than what the law requires. Do you do that? Can you name 5 other people who do that. You position is absurd.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
N1120A
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting Nancy (Reply 1):
I think a tax would be dumb, but I do think the bottles should have a five cent return just like soda bottles.

That is already the case in California, among others

Quoting Pope (Reply 2):

In fact, why doesn't the government take over the entire bottled water industry. Only then can we be assured of access to bottled water for all.

Ridiculous. Bottled water can be considered a luxury item like many other things, and hence taxed similarly. I personally don't like the idea, as I think it is ridiculous to tax any consumable food item, as goes on in many red states but very few blue ones. Now, I do agree with bottle deposits to encourage recycling.

Quoting PAHS200 (Reply 4):

if you work hard you should be able to keep all the money you make

please explain why someone who works hard should get their money tanking away and given to someone who haven't worked hard

Um, excuse me? Then how do you expect to pay for all those government functions that you take for granted?

Quoting Pope (Reply 10):

I find it insane to pay more for bottled water than gas on a gallon to gallon basis.

Actually, that is no longer the case
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PPVRA
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 18):
Nothing presently inhibits or prohibits you from sending the Treasury of your country more than what the law requires. Do you do that? Can you name 5 other people who do that. You position is absurd.

Why would I send even more money in when I think they already do more than they should? They already take the money anyways, it's not a voluntary system (like the U.S. armed forces).
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
aloges
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 16):
Imagine if taxes weren't mandatory. Would you voluntarily pay them?

That's a bit out there for a serious question. I claim all the tax refunds I'm entitled to, as does just about everyone else. The whole point of taxes is that they're a necessary evil required to keep our societies running.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 16):
Considering the hell it would be otherwise I think most of us would.

Anarchy doesn't look that sexy if you simply want to get on with life, that's why people realise we need governments. In turn they also realise that we need something to finance them: taxes.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 16):
Even defence should be ok (but not optimal/efficient IMO), if you consider the many quite successful insurgency campaigns we have seen in the past (and even currently).

I'm not quite with you there. Insurgents generally aim at destructing "the system", not build another one in its place, so I'd rather they didn't take charge of defending my country.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Pope
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 17):
I find the amount a bit high, but that's somewhat off topic. It's a 25 ct deposit here for single use plastic bottles and beer cans here, seems to work rather well.

I wasn't advocating a particular amount. I just used the $1 to signify a relatively high deposit rate.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 17):
Pardon my smugness, but you're describing the exact situation finally found in Germany. Our previous government (social democrats and greens) introduced the mandatory deposit and after a lot of chaos the industry finally got around to adopting a unified system that allows you to return any container at any place that sells single use containers. You put your bottles in the machine, it scans them, shreds them, stores them and prints a receipt. It's bit smelly at times, but it works.

No smuggness. I was unfamiliary with this.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 17):
Nice idea. IIRC we ship a lot of our used bottles to China where they make all sorts of stuff out of them.

Do you have any stats on how effective this has been? i.e. how much plastic that would have ended up in landfill is now recycled?

I think the exact deposit rate needs to be set such that a target recycling rate is achieved. For example if 25 cents achieves 50% recycling, what does 50 cents achieve? It's up to the government to set a recycling target, be that 50% 10% or 90%. I certainly wasn't trying to offer all the answers to this problem in a post on a.net just discuss ideas.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 21):

That's a bit out there for a serious question. I claim all the tax refunds I'm entitled to, as does just about everyone else. The whole point of taxes is that they're a necessary evil required to keep our societies running.

It's a bit of a moral question. If a society doesn't care about itself to the point of not even wanting to fund a system for its own protection, that speaks volumes about that society.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 21):
Anarchy doesn't look that sexy if you simply want to get on with life, that's why people realise we need governments. In turn they also realise that we need something to finance them: taxes.

Yes, I fully agree. I don't want anarchy either. I don't think taxes are all that bad, but we shouldn't abuse them with having government provide us with more and more services. Some of these services today look even more like luxuries.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 21):

I'm not quite with you there. Insurgents generally aim at destructing "the system", not build another one in its place, so I'd rather they didn't take charge of defending my country.

I meant something along the lines of the Iraqi insurgents fighting the invasion, the Afghans fighting the Soviets, and the French Resistance during WWII, for example.

edit: mistaken term

[Edited 2007-08-15 21:10:45]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
aloges
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RE: Tax On Bottled Water

Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 22):
No smuggness. I was unfamiliary with this.

Maybe "smug" wasn't the best word. You just described so nicely the end product of our national deposit mess that I couldn't help grinning.

Quoting Pope (Reply 22):
Do you have any stats on how effective this has been? i.e. how much plastic that would have ended up in landfill is now recycled?

I don't really know* and household recycling was pretty high even before the deposit. The system was introduced mainly to reduce littering, which as far as I can tell it has achieved. For that reason, there weren't that many containers wasted in landfills in the first place, but arguably what we now have is a tad better still. But of course, there was a mighty bit of debate over every single aspect, "Should we put a deposit on Tetra Paks?" and so on!

If there's one thing many Germans are anal about, it's recycling... not necessarily efficient, but absolutely pedantic. The standard household separates trash into glass, paper, "yellow bag" (for recycling), "bio" (-degradable), residual and bulky. On top of that we have to return electronic devices to dealers who then take care of recycling and we have to dispose off contaminants separately. When I was a kid, there was still a dedicated aluminium collection, so our yoghurt cup lids got special treatment.

* edit: I found an article in German: http://www.n-tv.de/659640.html Until 08/2006, between 10% and 25% of all single use bottles were not returned and the deposit wasted, amounting to €1.4bn. However, it was only after three years and for months that customers were able to return their bottles just about anywhere, in the beginning you even had to take your bottles to the exact place where you bought them and take the receipt from the purchase with you.

[Edited 2007-08-15 21:20:42]
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